Soul Calibur II: Which version? What of endings?

[Guest AndrewTS]

Yeah, sure, Adam. That's why I get thrashed playing in the arcade on a game and the exact opposite is true on the Saturn version of said game against the same person. It makes a HUGE difference.

 

To use more drastic examples, the 3D0 and Jaguar--both had shitty controllers.

 

How about you plug a GBA (which can be used as a controller with the GBA-to-GC link cable) into the Gamecube, and try playing Marvel vs. Capcom 2 against someone using even the stock Gamecube pad. See if you fare much worse or the same using it.

[Guest Flyboy]

Give me the money to buy a GBA and MvC2, and then we'll talk.

 

I'm in the minority that has no perference of controller. Give me a good controller scheme and I'm good. I even play MK III on my PC with my keyboard. Sue me for being different.

[Guest AndrewTS]

If you admit you're in the minority, then you're admitting that some people may dislike or perhaps have their playing ability hindered by a crappy controller, then?

 

The GC has enough buttons to play the game, but its layout is less intuitive than a NORMAL, more structured layout like the front 6-button face of the Sega Genesis/Saturn pads or even the Playstation/SNES 4-button diamond-pattern face with L and R triggers.

 

Take the Saturn pad when playing a game such as Vampire Savior:

 

Here's your standard button layout:

 

Weak Punch, Medium Punch, Hard Punch

Weak Kick, Medium Kick, Hard Kick.

 

The L and R's may be used for taunting or something.

 

Now, let's say you were playing a similar game on a Gamecube controller: It would have to be completely re-mapped.

 

For example:

 

B - Weak Punch

A - Weak Kick

Y - Medium Punch

X - Medium Kick

L - Hard Punch

R - Hard Kick

 

Eventually you could get used to a layout like that, but it's more intuitive if the layout is more orderly.

 

Since a layout like the Saturn's pad does not HINDER the types of games that the Gamecube pad is supposed to be more effective for, why go out of the way to design a pad that could hinder the enjoyment of non-platform games?

 

Have you ever played a platformer on the Genesis that basically used two buttons, like Rocket Knight Adventures, and said "Gee, I wish the jump button was about TWICE THE SIZE, the attack button was a little red dot, and the other buttons were scattered around that big jump button or on the top of the controller?"

[Guest Flyboy]

If you admit you're in the minority, then you're admitting that some people may dislike or perhaps have their playing ability hindered by a crappy controller, then?

Yes. Different strokes, different folks. Some people just aren't hindered by a controller that people think is crappy.

 

Eventually you could get used to a layout like that, but it's more intuitive if the layout is more orderly.

Not if you think that the current layout is already in order for your perferences. If it's not broken, do not fix it. BUT, the majority of people do not think it is in order. Therefore, you have different controller layouts made.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

No....that's what everyone's been saying. They want to play as Link. Nobody's saying that it'll be better.

Did you not read my post where I said I should probably get the PS2 one b/c it's a better system to play a fighter on? But I wanted to play as Link so I was getting the GC version?

And don't accuse anybody who wants to play as Link to "not being serious gamers" or "just casual gamers" that's bullshit in of itself.

 

I hate this attitude. Call me an elitist prick, but I just get really annoyed seeing people glossing over such an incredible fighter because all they really care about is one silly Nintendo character. The reason Link annoys me so much is that it distracts people from the real game. It's great that SC is going to get more mass market exposure than it got on DC, but unfortunately it's getting it for the wrong reason.

 

And I do indeed believe that people who are buying SC2 only because of Link aren't serious fighting game players. People playing as Link aren't going to care about learning the fundamentals of SC2, they're just going to care about seeing all of Link's moves. Some of them might get over it and move onto real characters, but most will just stick with Link, and will never get any good at the game.

 

What I'm saying is people blow the fact of, "OMG THAT CONTROLLER SUCKS" out of proportion. Maybe it's not the controller, but the person playing the game themselves.

 

It's much more likely to be the other way. The people who don't care about being good at fighters won't care about the controller either, because mashing buttons on the GCN controller is just as easy as mashing buttons on an Hori stick. Otoh, people who actually know what they're doing and actually want precise control really notice a bad controller. When I try to do Obedience (K~B) and my finger misses the B because it's in the wrong place and I just kick, that sucks. But if you're just button mashing, you won't even notice the difference.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Okay, Elitist Prick. I've played and owned Soul Blade, Soul Calibur, and I'm interested in getting this version because I'm simply bored with the Tekken series and I've never been a Spawn fan. I also like the LoZ games. So having a character I like in a game series I like is an incentive for me to play that version of the game.

 

I'm no master at the game, but I've beaten the Edge Master Mode in Blade, its equivalent in Calibur, and most of the human players I play against (although admittedly not masters either) I can thoroughly hand them their asses the majority of the time. I learn the moves, I can do some combos, although the combos in the Soul games aren't too difficult, especially the juggles.

 

What I'm hoping is that Link doesn't throw the character balance off and isn't far stronger than the default players. If he is, I can see your point because beginners would flock to him. If he plays like a fairly normal character although based on Link, then what harm is that?

 

In fact, the Soul games do tend to favor beginning players, because they can mash buttons and pull off some impressive moves and combos, although it's a deeper game than it appears to be at first.

 

Although at least we can agree on the controllers aspect. I too ordered a Hori controller for my Playstation so I could enjoy Street Fighter Alpha more.

 

The problem with buying those special controllers is that if you're playing other people they may feel you have an unfair advantage with it.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

No....that's what everyone's been saying. They want to play as Link. Nobody's saying that it'll be better.

Did you not read my post where I said I should probably get the PS2 one b/c it's a better system to play a fighter on? But I wanted to play as Link so I was getting the GC version?

And don't accuse anybody who wants to play as Link to "not being serious gamers" or "just casual gamers" that's bullshit in of itself.

 

I hate this attitude. Call me an elitist prick, but I just get really annoyed seeing people glossing over such an incredible fighter because all they really care about is one silly Nintendo character. The reason Link annoys me so much is that it distracts people from the real game. It's great that SC is going to get more mass market exposure than it got on DC, but unfortunately it's getting it for the wrong reason.

 

And I do indeed believe that people who are buying SC2 only because of Link aren't serious fighting game players. People playing as Link aren't going to care about learning the fundamentals of SC2, they're just going to care about seeing all of Link's moves. Some of them might get over it and move onto real characters, but most will just stick with Link, and will never get any good at the game.

 

What I'm saying is people blow the fact of, "OMG THAT CONTROLLER SUCKS" out of proportion. Maybe it's not the controller, but the person playing the game themselves.

 

It's much more likely to be the other way. The people who don't care about being good at fighters won't care about the controller either, because mashing buttons on the GCN controller is just as easy as mashing buttons on an Hori stick. Otoh, people who actually know what they're doing and actually want precise control really notice a bad controller. When I try to do Obedience (K~B) and my finger misses the B because it's in the wrong place and I just kick, that sucks. But if you're just button mashing, you won't even notice the difference.

Wait a minute? Serious players? Aren't we all playing video games to have fun? When you take the attitude of "You have to be a serious hardcore gamer or you're NOTHING" attitude then that just sucks the fun out of all of it. I never understood those people that said you had to be a serious gamer. Yes it is very elitist,prickish, asshole like, or whatever you want to call it. All in all it's a very immature attitude.

[Guest AndrewTS]

By "serious gamers" I'm assuming he means people who know quality in their games and have skill.

 

As opposed to some one who picks up a crappy licensed game a couple times a year, plays it one or two times a week, and then it collects dust for a while. People without the attention spans to learn not to suck at games. And in the case of fighters, players that plunk a quarter in an arcade machine, pick a shoto or Eddy Gordo, and begin mashing buttons.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Well then I guess I'm a serious gamer. Because I love video games. I know what a good game is and I don't buy crappy liscences.

I am good at the fighting games I play but I don't get all serious and throw the controller around in a fit of rage whenever a friend beats me.

So let's see....I have skill......I like quality games.....I play them all the time.....yet I still don't see the big deal in wanting to be Link. So I guess even serious gamers want to play as Link. And no I'm not buying it JUST to be Link. He's an added bonus. I'm buying it to play Soul Calibur 2. But I want to be Link. And I really don't have a problem with the controller either. I mean yes the PS2 controller is easier to use but that's not really a big deal. I mean doesn't that speak volumes about your supposed "mad skillz" if you get REALLY good using the GC controller?

[Guest Flyboy]

I mean doesn't that speak volumes about your supposed "mad skillz" if you get REALLY good using the GC controller?

 

Indeed, it would.

 

But, KoF probably thinks that those "mad skillz" are only from 'button mashing' (which is not the case for everyone).

 

So, let me get this straight: if a button masher beat a "hardcore fighting gamer" does that make the button masher better than the fighting gamer?

 

"NO! All they did was mash buttons!"

 

What I'm asking is, if you're so good why couldn't you beat the button masher? (Not aimed at just KoF, just at hardcore fans of the fighting genre in general)

[Guest KoR Fungus]

Okay, Elitist Prick. I've played and owned Soul Blade, Soul Calibur, and I'm interested in getting this version because I'm simply bored with the Tekken series and I've never been a Spawn fan. I also like the LoZ games. So having a character I like in a game series I like is an incentive for me to play that version of the game.

 

Yeah, so you're not who I was talking about. I'm talking about the many people who didn't play the first two games and only care now because of Link.

 

What I'm hoping is that Link doesn't throw the character balance off and isn't far stronger than the default players. If he is, I can see your point because beginners would flock to him. If he plays like a fairly normal character although based on Link, then what harm is that?

 

The harm for me is that I'll have to waste $20 on a controller adapter for a system I don't own just to play against my Nintendo fanboy friends with an Hori stick. That makes me bitter. Also, the console exclusive characters are annoying because they give an unfair advantage to the people that own the system and know their moveset. That's why they're all banned in tourneys.

 

Wait a minute? Serious players? Aren't we all playing video games to have fun? When you take the attitude of "You have to be a serious hardcore gamer or you're NOTHING" attitude then that just sucks the fun out of all of it. I never understood those people that said you had to be a serious gamer. Yes it is very elitist,prickish, asshole like, or whatever you want to call it. All in all it's a very immature attitude.

 

I, and my friends, find it fun to be good at fighting games. So yes, we are playing for fun. We have much more fun learning the games in depth and having involved, psychological matches then we do learning a few moves and just diddling around. If people want to just diddle around, that's cool, but playing people like that isn't fun for me, so yeah, I generally avoid them (or teach them if they're willing to learn, but the vast majority aren't) and seek out people that are good. I don't see what's immature about that.

 

I mean doesn't that speak volumes about your supposed "mad skillz" if you get REALLY good using the GC controller?

 

Uhm no. Good control is something you should expect, not something that you practice to achieve. I want to focus on learning the game, not learning how to use a bad controller.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

What I'm asking is, if you're so good why couldn't you beat the button masher? (Not aimed at just KoF, just at hardcore fans of the fighting genre in general)

 

Huh? I don't lose to button mashers. I just said that button mashers won't care about the quality of their controller. They can use whatever character they want and whatever controller they want, and as long as I'm using a decent controller I'll beat them damn near every time, shrug.

 

And no, not every casual player is a button masher, and yes, I overgeneralized, but the point is that people who aren't trying to do elaborate moves are going to be more willing to accept a bad controller. If you're a player who uses simple moves and combos and the most you need to hit is a direction and a button, you can probably manage that fine on a GameCube controller. When you start trying to buffer Ivy's command throws quickly after a guard cancel, the bad control starts to be a huge issue. I guess there's something to be said for someone who perseveres and gets that to work on a bad controller, but it's much easier just to use a controller that doesn't handicap you.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Well let me put it this way. I am GOOD at fighting games. I play my friends to have fun and see who is better. You know who has "teh mad skillz!" And I want to play this game....I don't think I'll have to much trouble with the controller at all. It's not something that gets in my way. I don't have any trouble throwing my hands all over the controller. Maybe it's b/c they're big I dunno.

But I am good at these games and I do strive to have fun and beat my friends. I am one of the people you say you'd like to face.

And I want a the GC version and I want to play as Link. Therefore not everyone wanting the GC version is a casual gamer that has no interest in fighting games as a whole. That argument is out the window.

Oh and if you don't like the GC controller so much then it's simple....DON'T PLAY IT.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I'm not a combo maniac when it comes to fighting games. I either pick a big powerful character like Astaroth, and just keep coming without surcease, or else I go defensive with someone like, say, Guile in the SF series.

 

Perfect timing, and knowing how to block shots well will take out a combo fanatic any time.

[Guest EricMM]

But we can agree that the GC controller a needlessly crappy controller for fighting games?

 

Right?

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

I will agree. Because the D-Pad is so small it is hard to pull off anything(this is coming from an SF man that used the D-Pad on the PS2 to pull off his moves).

But I can still deal with it. And if it really is that annoying then I'll just pick up the PS2 version. Hell I'm renting it before I buy it.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

The GC controller is the WORST. Especially for fighters. I've adapted to it enough to use it successfully at CvSNK2, but I'm way better with a PS2 controller.

[Guest Ripper]

I disagree...I think the GC controller is perfect.

 

And maybe I am not the best case because I do get a game and it collects dust in a few weeks...why...because I haven't been challenged by a game in a long time. Virtual Fighter 3 on Dreamcast still gets play at my home because I still haven't mastered it due to how deep its fighting system is. Outside of that, the timing comes so easy in most every fighting game, i own everyone within a few days (of course those few days consist of non-stop playing, but I learn quickly).

 

Bottom line, just because you suck at using the GC controller, don't call everyone that is good at it a button masher. I have had NO problem playing the demo, everything works just fine for me.

 

I played Soul Caliber on DC using only the analog stick and had no problems getting moves off (including that ridicilously hard to do throw that Ivory does that takes most of the life bar away...) Most people I see wailing on the GC controller are that way basically because they have been playing Playstation so many years and they can't adjust. TOUGH SHIT. It took me all of a day...just as it took my Playstation fan boy friend all of a day to get adjusted to it and basically they are both the same. No biggie.

 

Calling people "not true gamers" because they are getting the GC version is stupid. They are getting Soul Caliber. The only thing different in the 3 versions(outside of the graphics being better on the X-box and Cube) are the exclusive characters. So they would perfer to play with one than the other. That doesn't put you on a higher gaming plateau.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I played Soul Caliber on DC using only the analog stick and had no problems getting moves off (including that ridicilously hard to do throw that Ivory does that takes most of the life bar away...) Most people I see wailing on the GC controller are that way basically because they have been playing Playstation so many years and they can't adjust. TOUGH SHIT. It took me all of a day...just as it took my Playstation fan boy friend all of a day to get adjusted to it and basically they are both the same. No biggie.

 

So what if your boyfriend managed to do that when those controllers are so similar? And you've never said anything about adjusting to the Cube.

 

And basically you say people who suck on the GC controller are button mashers. What a prick.

 

The same four-button diamond-pattern layout is on the both controllers.

 

You seem to be singling out Playstation players just because the Playstation controller is actually, you know, a NORMAL controller, and not some mutated beast designed for no actual purpose but to make it more difficult to play a certain type of game? Yes, it is possible to adjust, but why the hell should they have to? There should be little or no adjusting required.

 

And finally, riddle me this:

 

Can anyone please explain why the GC controller NEEDS to use the design it does?

 

Other than Miyamoto's bullshit ideas about the controller, I heard none.

[Guest Cavi]

Miyamoto actually wants to a one button controller someday, to go along with his proposed one button game. Crazy Shigs...

 

I think the GC controller is easily one of the worst first party pads ever. It's sad that Nintendo's controllers have taken steps back rather than forward.

[Guest Ripper]

I played Soul Caliber on DC using only the analog stick and had no problems getting moves off (including that ridicilously hard to do throw that Ivory does that takes most of the life bar away...) Most people I see wailing on the GC controller are that way basically because they have been playing Playstation so many years and they can't adjust. TOUGH SHIT. It took me all of a day...just as it took my Playstation fan boy friend all of a day to get adjusted to it and basically they are both the same. No biggie.

 

So what if your boyfriend managed to do that when those controllers are so similar? And you've never said anything about adjusting to the Cube.

 

And basically you say people who suck on the GC controller are button mashers. What a prick.

 

The same four-button diamond-pattern layout is on the both controllers.

 

You seem to be singling out Playstation players just because the Playstation controller is actually, you know, a NORMAL controller, and not some mutated beast designed for no actual purpose but to make it more difficult to play a certain type of game? Yes, it is possible to adjust, but why the hell should they have to? There should be little or no adjusting required.

 

And finally, riddle me this:

 

Can anyone please explain why the GC controller NEEDS to use the design it does?

 

Other than Miyamoto's bullshit ideas about the controller, I heard none.

"Playstation fanboy" friend!!!!!!....my fuck up there...

By the way, read the paragraph again. I said he adjusted to the GC controller after hours of bitching about how stupid it was and now I hear no complaints.

 

I didn't say that people that suck at the GC controller are button mashers...nothing close to it. I said that they don't know how to use it so they call it crap. There are plenty of people that are having no trouble using the controller so MAYBE its you.

 

And the controller is erogo...uh...erogon....uh...YOU KNOW THE FUCKING WORD!!!. It fits naturally in your hand...It fits more comfortably in your hands than anyother controller. basically.

 

In the end, you seem to just be bitching because the Cube controller doesn't meet YOUR likes. Well, it meets mine. So it doesn't meet your personal preference. Get over it.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I love Miyamoto's games, but he's not a genius all the time.

 

Ditto with Gumpei's Virtual Boy.

[Guest AndrewTS]

"Playstation fanboy" friend!!!!!!....my fuck up there...

By the way, read the paragraph again. I said he adjusted to the GC controller after hours of bitching about how stupid it was and now I hear no complaints.

 

I read the paragraph about 3 times, and you said nothing of the sort and never even mentioned the GC controller. It's still vague. You knew what you meant but didn't convey it well.

 

And the phrase "fanboy" is extremely ass.

 

I didn't say that people that suck at the GC controller are button mashers...nothing close to it. I said that they don't know how to use it so they call it crap. There are plenty of people that are having no trouble using the controller so MAYBE its you.

 

I haven't conducted a random sampling scientific poll, but most players of fighting games say it sucks for fighters. Much more than those who have no problems with it. It's not so bad with SCII because it has only 3 attack buttons, and one block button, but for a six button fighter it's very messed up.

 

And the controller is erogo...uh...erogon....uh...YOU KNOW THE FUCKING WORD!!!. It fits naturally in your hand...It fits more comfortably in your hands than anyother controller. basically.

 

Ergonomical?

 

That applies to the shape of the controller, but what about the button layout? Those are two completely different aspects of controller design, and the button layout is the beef I have about it.

 

I've yet to see a convincing argument about why the buttons should be laid out that way.