FOX drops Charlie Chan film festival...

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Rabble Rabble

 

What about movies like Tootsie?

 

That's a man portraying a WOMAN. he's not a woman. Clearly this is offensive and must be banned.

[Guest godthedog]

Rabble Rabble

 

What about movies like Tootsie?

 

That's a man portraying a WOMAN. he's not a woman. Clearly this is offensive and must be banned.

a) by the time 'tootsie' came along, there were plenty of other representations of leading women in the movies. name ONE successful leading asian male in hollywood when the charlie chan movies were out. impossible, isn't it? see, it's not that one case in a thousand is ridiculous and therefore racist: it's that these were the ONLY ways asians were represented in the movies at that time. that's institutional racism.

 

b) it's a false analogy anyway, cause 'tootsie' got its laughs from the fact that it was a man trying to play a woman, and making fun of the guy trying to be a woman. the movie DRAWS ATTENTION to the fact that it's really a guy. in charlie chan movies and various blackface crap, you're actually supposed to buy into the idea that they were REALLY asian, or REALLY black. in this kind of case, when you make exaggerations (like with the eyes, or with the lips, or what have you), it's not making fun of a white guy trying to be another race: it's making fun of the other race. if the CHARACTER in 'tootsie' was really a woman, and she was completely airheaded, had no goals of her own, and needed a man in her life to function, then you might have some room to talk.

[Guest nl5xsk1]

What cracks me up is that they felt that the housewoman in the old Tom and Jerry cartoons portrayed African Americans in a negative light, so the changed her into an ...

 

IRISHWOMAN!

 

Good thing the Irish don't care about their portrayal, eh?

[Guest Ripper]

Yeah, but they just gave her a Irish accent. The black one would be all "Looka heah Tom, boss don't want you all up on his table, na. Git offa deah you crazy cat..."

 

I don't think they went that far with the Irish one.

[Guest El Satanico]

Contrary to what I'm sure many of you assumed about me. I'm not one of these overly PC people that complains about anything that could potentially offend someone.

 

However, not being one of those overly PC people doesn't mean that you should ignore things that actually are offensive.

[Guest Lethargic]

Charlie Chan films will still exist, they will still be for sale. They just won't have a festival on TCM and some of you guys are pitching a fit over it.

Actually they will. TCM and AMC both play the movies regularly and have done so for years and nobody has ever said a word about them. Only now completely out of the blue do these people crawl out of the woodwork because they had nothing better to do. I truly think that people like this do way more harm than good by doing things like this. Things like this make me WANT to be racist cause it pisses me off that a certain group of people want to take something I like away from me. I don't see this being much different from a group of Asians breaking into my house and stealing all my video tapes with Chan movies on them. Why can't these people use this power on REAL issues? Why is he always wasted on something so petty?

[Guest Ripper]

Some kids spreading shit on your car every Monday would be petty to me...but I bet you would care because it would be happening to you.

 

Who are you to tell anyone they shouldn't be insulted by someone INSULTING them.

 

I guess that Asian people should be proud that someone took the time to mock them with broken speech and squinting their eyes. Black people should be honored to have someone in black face insult them. How DARE anyone be insulted?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Some kids spreading shit on your car every Monday would be petty to me...but I bet you would care because it would be happening to you.

 

Who are you to tell anyone they shouldn't be insulted by someone INSULTING them.

 

I guess that Asian people should be proud that someone took the time to mock them with broken speech and squinting their eyes. Black people should be honored to have someone in black face insult them. How DARE anyone be insulted?

Would you say "Kung Fu" was also racist?

[Guest Ripper]

He was playing a white guy that was studying Kung-fu. How you can confuse that with a white guy squinting his eyes, speaking in broken English about "Confucious say" is the same thing is a VERY large leap.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

He was playing a white guy that was studying Kung-fu. How you can confuse that with a white guy squinting his eyes, speaking in broken English about "Confucious say" is the same thing is a VERY large leap.

No, he was playing a Chinese Shaolin Monk.

 

 

Bruce Lee (Fresh off "The Green Hornet") was going to get the role, but they didn't think his English was good enough.

 

Cain was Chinese.

[Guest Ripper]

Cain was SUPPOSED to be Chinese until David STOLE the role from Lee. I think...

 

Either way, we are talking apples and oranges here. The Charlie Chan films were PURPOSELY making fun of asians.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Now, let's take a look at the Chan films with plot stuff from IMDB

 

Charlie Chan Carries On (1931)

 

Charlie steps in to solve the murder of a wealthy American found dead in a London hotel. Settings include London, Nice, San Remo, Honolulu and Hong Kong. Fast-paced with lots of wisecracking.

 

(Charlie Chan Carries on is regarded to be 'lost' with no prints known)

 

Black Camel, The (1931)

 

Movie star Sheila Fayne is seeing wealthy Alan Jaynes while filming in Honolulu, Hawaii, but won't marry him without consulting famed psychic Tanaverro first. Tanaverro confronts her about the unsolved murder of fellow film star Denny Mayo three years earlier, and she decides to reject Jaynes' proposal. When Sheila is found shot to death in her beach-front pavilion, Charlie Chan of the Honolulu Police investigates.

 

Charlie Chan's Chance (1932)

 

Charlie is the intended murder victim here, and he avoids death only by chance. To find the murderer (since, of course, murder does occur), Charlie must outguess Scotland Yard and New York City police.

 

[This movie is also believed to be lost]

 

Quotes: Charlie Chan: Some heads like hard nuts - much better if well cracked

 

Tagline: 'With eyes that see all, lips that tell nothing, Charlie Chan unmasks the most sinister crime of his career'

 

Charlie Chan's Greatest Case (1933)

 

No plot found. Movie believed to be lost.

 

Charlie Chan's Courage (1934)

 

Charlie is hired to deliver a pearl necklace to a millionaire at his ranch. When murder intervenes he disguises himself as a Chinese servant and begins sleuthing.

 

(Believed to be lost)

 

Charlie Chan in London (1934)

 

Charlie visits a wealthy country home in England. Suspects in the murder range from a housekeepe to a stableman to a lawyer

 

Quote: 'Charlie Chan: If you want wild bird to sing do not put him in cage.'

 

 

 

Charlie Chan in Paris (1935)

 

Charlie's visit to Paris, ostensibly a vacation, is really a mission to investigate a bond-forgery racket. But his agent, apache dancer Nardi is killed before she can tell him much. The case, complicated by a false murder accusation for banker's daughter Yvette, climaxes with a strange journey through the Paris sewers.

 

Quotes:

 

'Yvette Lamartine: Too bad you don't dance, Mr. Chan.

Charlie Chan: Mud turtle in pond more safe than man on horseback.

 

Charlie Chan: Perfect case, like perfect doughnut, has hole.

Inspector Renard: Ha, I see. Same old pessimist, aren't you?

Charlie Chan: Optimist only sees doughnut. Pessimist sees hole.

 

Charlie Chan: Hasty conclusion like gunpowder. Easy to explode.

 

Charlie Chan: Grain of sand in eye may hide mountain.

 

Charlie Chan: Cannot see contents of nut until shell is cracked.

 

Charlie Chan: Joy in heart more desirable than bullet.'

 

Charlie Chan in Egypt (1935):

 

'An X-ray machine reveals the presence of a corpse in an Egyptian sarcophagus. It is not that of an ancient pharaoh. Instead the body is that of recently murdered archaelogist.'

 

'Charlie Chan: Hasty conclusion like hole in water, easy to make.'

 

Charlie Chan in Shanghai (1935)

 

The Chinese government calls Charlie Chan to Shanghai to investigate a murder involving an opium ring. Ring leaders kidnap Charlie and attempt to have him killed.

 

'Charlie Chan: Holiday mood like fickle girl - privileged to change mind'

 

Charlie Chan's Secret (1936)

 

An ocean liner sinks off Honolulu and Allen Colby, heir to millions, is presumed dead...but local sleuth Charlie Chan is not so sure, and flies to San Francisco to investigate further. Somehow, the missing Colby is there ahead of him...but is knifed in the back before seeing anyone. Further events revolve around spiritualist Mrs. Lowell, her family of suspicious characters, and the spooky, untenanted Colby mansion, where the body turns up during a seance!

 

'Charlie Chan: If strength were all, tiger would not fear scorpion.

 

Charlie Chan: Hasty deduction like ancient egg. Look good from outside.

 

Charlie Chan: Necessity mother of invention, but sometimes step-mother of deception.'

 

--

 

I can do on. But it's pretty much the same premise redone at least 15 times by Warner Oland (a Swede)

 

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Oland,%20Warner

 

Oland also played 'Fu Manchu'. It appears he had quite the career pretending to be Asian.

 

" Criticized in recent years for his pidginEnglish dialogue, Oland was defended by costar Keye Luke, who explained that the intelligent actor (who spent much time studying Chinese culture) approached his role as that of a Chinese mandarin who had to think in one language, then speak in another"

 

--

 

http://us.imdb.com/Mlinks?0028708

 

This covers a spectrum of the series

[Guest cabbageboy]

This fucking sucks. I actually had a tape ready to record Chan in Egypt and another one only to find out they weren't on.

 

The completely idiotic thing about it is that the Chan movies were FAR from racist. Racist would be showing Chinese as seedy scum who cut throats or stuff like that.

 

Chan actually was played by a Korean in the first sound movie, Behind that Curtain.

 

Chan's sons are to some extent inept but that isn't because they are Chinese, it is because they are young and inexperienced as detectives.

[Guest Lethargic]

Anybody that thinks that the Chan movies PURPOSELY made to make fun of Asians is a idiot and has never watched them at all or has never watch more than 2 minutes of the series with an open mind. Case closed. The only way anybody can find something wrong in these movies is if you want to. If you're not looking for something to bitch about, you won't find it, not here at least.

[Guest Downhome]

Anybody that thinks that the Chan movies PURPOSELY made to make fun of Asians is a idiot and has never watched them at all or has never watch more than 2 minutes of the series with an open mind. Case closed. The only way anybody can find something wrong in these movies is if you want to. If you're not looking for something to bitch about, you won't find it, not here at least.

If anything, Charlie Chan and his films but Asians in a very bright light. He was a master detective who solved various cases, while outsmarting the "white man" over and over again.

 

I always saw them as something good for the Asian community, and helped to get them more accepted in a day and age where they were shunned at many times. What else in that day and age could be creidited for such as this?

[Guest godthedog]

i think ripper went off the deep end with the comment of purpose. i don't think it was ever their intent to make fun of the chinese population. i think the RESULT ended up looking dated, stereotyped and pretty embarrassing, but i don't think the producers huddled around a table saying, "those chinese are so damn funny, let's make a series of movies about how funny they act!"

If anything, Charlie Chan and his films but Asians in a very bright light. He was a master detective who solved various cases, while outsmarting the "white man" over and over again.

again: in some ways, he was progressive, but in other ways (the inane "confucius say" wisdom, yellow face), he reinforced the stereotype.

[Guest Downhome]

If anything, Charlie Chan and his films but Asians in a very bright light. He was a master detective who solved various cases, while outsmarting the "white man" over and over again.

again: in some ways, he was progressive, but in other ways (the inane "confucius say" wisdom, yellow face), he reinforced the stereotype.

But in that day and age, he was one of the only characters in the world that helped progress the Asian race here in this part of the world. Many resented them and he helped people soften up to them and to accept them.

 

It wasn't free of any stereotypes, but how many works of film really are? Besides, it was a series of movies, things like this happen all of the time. Films sterotype people in all sorts of ways, but that's ok. It's entertainment, and in this case, it actually helped a people, not hold them back or hurt them.

 

I'm sure that when they made the character they meant no harm at all to the Asian community. As I said, he was the hero. Charlie Chan was the #1 guy, and that was very rare for an Asian portrayed character in that time.

[Guest godthedog]

but this yellow face problem still keeps coming up. charlie chan was still a comically exaggerated yellow face character.

 

i've also never heard any film scholar say that the charlie chan series made any progress for asians in hollywood. it gave some asians work at the time, but did it do anything to change the way asians were represented in movies? you can't mark any progress that the chan films made, there's no set of examples you can point to and say "these more positive representations were possible after charlie chan." unlike, say, 'bataan' (which was crucial in introducing the concept of the "token black guy"), there's no positive trends that you can attribute to chan. so, historically, it can't really be said that it did anything substantial for asians.

 

Films sterotype people in all sorts of ways, but that's ok. It's entertainment, and in this case, it actually helped a people, not hold them back or hurt them.

as said before, it's debatable whether or not the movies actually helped out asians in hollywood. and it is NOT okay for films to stereotype people all the time, because they reinforce the false ideas the public has about a certain ethnicity and plays on those ideas for cheap laughs. the effeminate gay prisoner in 'con air' is NOT okay.

[Guest Lethargic]

The thing is, I don't see the Chan role any different from the Batman discussion going on right now. The studios want to make MONEY. This was a profitable series. They wanted to make money from it, just like the studio today wants to cast Ashton as Batman even though everybody hates it, all they see it that it's somebody popular and they think it'll make money. They had Sidney Toler and Warner Oland play Chan because it made them money. At that point in time, having an Asian starring in the movie would hurt the box office. So they simply made a business decision. They didn't sit around trying to come up with ways to screen the Asians. They sat around trying to make the best money making decision. If that WAS the case then white people would've played the rest of the Asians that appeared in the movies. And evidently they made the right decision as it's probably the longest running franchise in number of movies there is.

 

The problem with this is where does it stop? What about those dozens upon dozens of westerns from back then where white people played indians? What about all the dozens of other movies where whites played Asians? Look at Myrna Loy, she played Asian women a bunch of times early in her career. Are all those movies gonna be banned now? Will Buster Keaton's work getting banned and will he be called a racist because he wore black face in College? Hell, why not ban every movie that had a black man playing a porter? That was obviously an instance of whitey keeping the black man down. And if nobody is gonna complain about the other instances of this, then shut up about this one. Why is THIS singled out when it happened regularly at the time in pretty much all movies in some form or fashion? Be consistent. Next time TCM or AMC plays a movie with Stepin Fetchit in it, I wanna hear some complaining about THAT too.

[Guest godthedog]

The problem with this is where does it stop? What about those dozens upon dozens of westerns from back then where white people played indians? What about all the dozens of other movies where whites played Asians? Look at Myrna Loy, she played Asian women a bunch of times early in her career. Are all those movies gonna be banned now? Will Buster Keaton's work getting banned and will he be called a racist because he wore black face in College? Hell, why not ban every movie that had a black man playing a porter? That was obviously an instance of whitey keeping the black man down. And if nobody is gonna complain about the other instances of this, then shut up about this one. Why is THIS singled out when it happened regularly at the time in pretty much all movies in some form or fashion? Be consistent. Next time TCM or AMC plays a movie with Stepin Fetchit in it, I wanna hear some complaining about THAT too.

rules of logic: fallacies of presumption

 

Slippery Slope: an argument in which systematic cause and effect chains are ignored in favor of inevitability leading from the first step

 

my thoughts after some more consideration: on the one hand, it IS stupid to repress parts of history because some people consider it embarrassing, but on the other hand i think presenting it in the right context is a delicate matter. most channels that show old movies do 2 things:

 

a) completely ignore the history around them, acting like just presenting the movie is some great historical service, or

 

b) when they DO discuss history around it, turn it into a fellatio-fest for the movie in question, presenting it like, "in the beginning of sound film, there was darkness...and then 'citizen kane' said, 'let there be light!' and the world was changed forever," ignoring crucial PARTS of that history.

 

and for plenty of movies, like 'the fbi story' or whatever, that's okay. but there's certain movies that are contraversial enough that there's been significant historical backlash, and to be fair to the history, you have to present that backlash. 'birth of a nation', 'the cheat', 'do the right thing', 'a question of silence'...and there's been a lot of heated discussion throughout the years (not just in 2003) about the charlie chan movies. so i don't think the movies should be ignored, but i don't think the contraversy around them should be ignored either.