IWS Review Feedback

[Guest Zack Malibu]

I knew Jay wanted to get the review up this week, so I was pleasantly surprised to come to work this morning and find a reason to slack.

 

I had known about Jay's thoughts on certain points of the show, and I felt the review as a whole was good. Each of your opinions have a uniqueness about them (Jay, you're more of a straight, to the point reviewer...Jake's the harsh yet humorous one, and Thomas is the more critical thinker). The TLC match, the title match, and the Ass Punch would sell me on this tape, but I have to agree that there is probably a better event amongst the IWS' tape library. Heck, I've already gotten CZW Process of Elimination from work simply to get a sneak preview of these guys, though you say that their CZW work doesn't leave the best impression on you.

 

I'll retain judgement until I see something for myself (varied tastes you know...I'm an XPW fan, but at least I'm not an annoying mark like Barber ). Still, a well done, completely honest review from you three. I'm looking forward to more of these.

[Guest Kingpk]

I liked the format you guys used, making it seem like you guys watched the tape together and just had a running commentary going.

 

Keep it up, TSM always could use good, original content (Lord knows I'M not the one to turn to for that.)

[Guest Big Poppa Popick]

i thought it sucked...

 

j/k

 

the format needs work though, maybe each guy can take turns reviewing a match? jay seemed to do more work

 

then again, jakes just a slacker

[Guest evenflowDDT]

"Actually, it looked like Beef was aiming more for the coccyx then the buttocks themselves, but I’ll let it slide."

 

I liked how Jay would do your typical "recap"-ish thing on the match, then Jake and the other guy would add their two cents. But most of the time it seemed pointless because all three agreed (hence, "Jake and 'the other guy'"...sorry 'the other guy', I don't know you from the board and aside from your talk of how these guys careers would be over in five years couldn't really pick out a strong personality from the article).

 

However, much like your comments on the IWS, though it may not have lived up to the hype (though I'm proably the only person dumb enough to hype Sandman9k ), the potential is definitely there, and it was only the first column. Hell, even my first column wasn't very good.

[Guest Phoenix Fury Legdrop]

Evenflow, I'm the other dude. Name's Thomas, I regularly write for the site. One review, and Jay & Jake have overshadowed me, heh.

 

On behalf of Jay & Jake, I'd like to thank you guys for the feedback. We really appreciate it. Keep it coming, if you can. Next review should be CZW's Best of the Best 3.

[Guest Joe_G]

I like the format, but it seems that everyone had a lot to say about the matches, which made the article hard to finish (I'm not a huge fan of play-by-play calling anyway). Some editing would help, I think. Check out the DVDVR review of the IWA-MS 2001 KOTDM for an example (it's in #130).

[Guest evenflowDDT]

Evenflow, I'm the other dude. Name's Thomas, I regularly write for the site. One review, and Jay & Jake have overshadowed me, heh.

Whoops, sorry again about that one man. I guess that's the benefit of being a Pop Culture guy, there's so few of us (and even fewer of us who regularly contribute), that there's no way we could possibly be overshadowed. Pigeon-holed ("Hey! It's that Edward Robins guy who reviews those crappy Something Weird discs!"), maybe, but never over-shadowed.

 

I was 'the other guy' for many years of schooling, and even if you take no offense, I don't want to diminish anyone with anonymity or not knowing who they are if I can avoid it. Especially if they're a fellow TSM writer

[Guest ShooterJay]

From the "I told you guys this was a good fucking idea" department, here's a message from Carol Cox, the OWNER of the Internet Wrestling Syndicate, via the IWS message board:

 

I think, all in all, it was a fair review of the video. They weren't commenting on the IWS in general, or the quality of the shows, just on the production that was given to them.

 

As Shooterjay said, he won't be a "mindless shill", and we really don't want that. It would just make them appear as real maks, and future reviews of anything would lose and semblance of integrity.

 

I would like to take this opportunity to publicly thank them for taking the time to watch and review KYE. Thank you.

 

We should use the review to see how we can better our product. We may not agree with everything they had to say, and we never will. But understanding how an outsider views our product is essential for growth.

 

Again, thank you Paradise City Ninjas. I really enjoyed reading the review

 

Carol Cox

Owner - Internet Wrestling Syndicate

 

You can read the full thread at:

http://www.syndicatewrestling.com/board/vi...topic.php?t=501

[Llakor 0]

Let me start by saying that when I first started the project of putting IWS DVDs into the hands of Internet Writers that this is EXACTLY the kind of feedback or review that I was looking for.

 

I'll just pause while everyone concludes that I have, in fact, lost my mind.

 

I'm completely serious here.

 

First of all, the review is very well written and it's written by three guys who have obviously watched a lot of wrestling, and more importantly a lot of indy wrestling. Also, when these guys like or don't like something, they don't just say that they like it or dislike it, they explain why. This is an absolutely vital part of the review process, because otherwise someone who hasn't seen the product has no way of knowing whether they would enjoy the product or not. By placing their tastes in context, the Paradise City Ninjas give the reader an opportunity to decide if his or her own tastes coincide with the reviewers or not.

 

I was also interested in hearing the informed opinions of someone watching the IWS who has never seen the product live, because for those of us who have seen the IWS live, all of the tapes and DVDs are invariably filtered by that experience. We have a tendency to fill in the crowd noise and the live experience from our own memories when they might not actually be there on the tape.

 

(In passing, one of the things that this review seem to point to is that we need to do a better job of including the crowd in the tapes or DVDs, because it doesn't seem to come across in the tapes and DVDs right now. I'm not sure how to do that exactly, but there must be a way.)

 

Equally important, this is not a review by a group of people who are obviously kissing up to the IWS in order to please us or get more free tapes out of us. When they don't like something, they go after it with all the RUTHLESS AGRESSION of an abused, starved pit-bull. And that is incredibly valuable. First of all, it gives us some valuable suggestions on how to improve our product. But even more importantly, it validates the praise that they do heap on the IWS. No-one is going to read that review and think that they are praising Beef or Arsenal just to suck up to us. So, people who read that review will walk away thinking that it might be a good idea to track down some tapes with Beef Wellington on them... or Arsenal... or the Ninjaz... or EXcesS69.

 

[CHEAP PLUG] And the goal, of all of this sending out free tapes to be reviewed stuff, at least from the point of view of the IWS, is to SELL MORE TAPES/DVDs!!! So, go to http://xrv.com/iws/ and order a tape or DVD today or e-mail the IWS at [email protected] and tell them that the Paradise City Ninjaz sent you! [/CHEAP PLUG]

 

If you look at the review, they hated half of our matches that night, but they LOVED the other half. Now we could get down on ourselves about the half that they disliked. Personally, I keep in mind that not every match is going to please everyone and prefer to focus on the stuff that they liked. Ultimately, the common conclusion seemed to be that the IWS production is excellent, and that the half of our show that they liked was good bordering on excellent. I can live with that conclusion. The glass is half FULL people!

 

The most important part of the review to my mind was that it made me want to sit down and rewatch Know Your Enemies, or go see the IWS live again. In fact, it has me seriously pumped to see the IWS this Saturday.

 

All of the above being said...

 

Does NOT in any way mean that I agree with all of their conclusions.

 

So let me take the parts that I disagree with in order...

 

1) El Generico

 

Well, let me start by saying that it is a damn good thing that El Generico doesn't speak enough English to read and understand this review, because otherwise his self-esteem would be crushed like a grape hit by a flying Elephant.

 

Let's start with the "yardtard" comment. First of all, it's a very unprofessional term to use in a review and unworthy of the otherwise fine writing on display in the rest of the article. I would suggest that it would qualify as the review equivalent of a blown spot. More importantly, it's one thing to not like El Generico because he WRESTLES like a yardtard, it's quite another thing to not like El Generico because he LOOKS like a yardtard. El Generico's gimmick is that he is a skinny masked Mexican jobber, to complain because he looks the part is somewhat missing the genius of the gimmick.

 

The other issue is that one of the reasons that I liked Know Your Enemies was because I ADORED the El Generico match-ups. It's not that on this night, El Generico wasn't wrestling well as Shooter Jay has suggested. As far as I was/am concerned, on this night, El Generico was wrestling fine and doing a great job of telling a story in his two matches. A lot of IWS fans liked the Kid Kamikaze match more, but personally I liked the Steve Royds match better because El Generico did such a good job of selling the idea that he was exhausted after wrestling earlier in the evening. Now we could get into a huge meta argument as to whether there is a difference between being exhausted and pretending to be exhausted. I believe that there is a difference and that El Generico was selling the exhaustion rather than actually being exhausted.

 

The other issue here is that I break wrestlers into three categories:

Those who flinch and therefore suck (Brutus Beefcake, say)

Those who take it like a man and therby earn the benefit of the doubt (I don't know how about - Crash Holly)

And Those who LEAN into the beating and thus get a free lifetime pass (Mick Foley)

 

El Generico LEANS into the beating. Or as DEAN would put it, "El Generico is not afraid to die for our sins."

 

The other thing about the two matches that El Generico had on that night that may not have come across on the tape is that with the possible exceptions of the Aryans, the two stiffest workers in the IWS by general consensus are Kid Kamikaze and Steve Royds. So El Generico was legitimately getting beaten to shreds out there. And like Ole Anderson, I have to tell you that it puts a smile on my face watching someone get the shit kicked out of him...

especially when it's some masked greaseball wetback that should have stayed in the Tijuana hell-hole cess-pool that he crawled out of.

 

2) Speaking of racist assholes, let's talk about the Angry Aryans for a minute shall we. Now, I am on record as hating their gimmick, and hating this whole feud. In fact, I managed to piss a whole bunch of people off by writing a few thousand autobiographical words about my own experiences with racism in Quebec in the middle of my Violent Valentines recap.

 

That said, there are a few positive things to say about this match that the Paradise City Ninjas glossed over.

-It was short.

-It was incredibly violent.

-The racist scum got beaten to within an inch of their lives. And if you are going to do a racist scum angle, THAT is the way to do it.

-The crowd liked it.

"If it were to be done, better it be done quickly"

 

3) Beef

I am a big fan of Beef. He is very talented, he is well rounded technically, he knows how to tell a story in the ring, and he is probably the nicest guy in Quebec wrestling. (Given what a pit of vipers Quebec is that's rather like being the tallest midget that, but still.)

 

And this match did tell a very humourous story, all the funnier because it was built on real events since Beef really did fracture a bone in his hand at Violent Valentines punching Latino Mysterio in the ass. (Or as Beef put it: DUMBEST WRESTLING INJURY EVER.)

 

All of that said, I am baffled at the love heaped on this match. I liked it but I had it as the fourth best match of the night.

 

4) Match Lengths

Just because it came up during the review in a couple of places, there are a bunch of feds in Quebec who put on shows with ten matches EVERY SINGLE ONE OF WHICH goes EXACTLY TEN MINUTES. I mean literally within thirty seconds. At the NCW show before No Way Out, you could practically time the endings down to the second.

 

In my opinion, the IWS tends to be a reaction against a lot of the stuff that happens in Quebec. So there is a tendency for IWS matches to run long or have wacky times. On the plus side that means that IWS matches tend to be less predictable, and the matches have a chance to breathe and expand to the length they need to tell the story properly. On the down side, sometimes the IWS errs too far in the other direction. Matches that ought to be five minutes turn into twenty.

 

I mention this less because I disagree with anything that the Paradise City Ninjas said and more to put things into context.

 

5) The ladder match

On the subject of this match, I am in complete agreement with the Paradise City Ninjas.

 

6) Onyx vs. Green Phantom

This would probably be the classic example of the way that the DVD/tape experience and the live experience can cause differences of opinions. When people who were there read, "this match seemed to lack the intensity a be-all end-all blowoff should have" we start to wonder if the person who wrote that was dropped on his head as a child, because at ringside it seemed pretty FUCKING INTENSE.

 

I think that the reason for the difference in opinion has to do with this, "...all he [Dru] can do is stand there, throw a couple of punches every now and then, and have no facial expression whatsoever?"

 

Right there, we have the difference between the live event and the taped event. From the point of view of the live spectator, we had a hard enough time keeping track of what they were doing to one another as they fought ALL OVER the Skratch. We were having a hard enough time seeing the moves let alone their facial expressions. For the live viewers, the fact that the hatred and the intesity that the two men had for each other was so great that the ring could no longer contain it, was the story that we understood viscerally, but I can understand why that didn't translate to video.

 

I have a couple of quick quibbles for this section:

 

What I really hated was that, in the blow-off to this huge feud, where these two are supposed to be beating the holy hell out of each other in order to obtain the top prize in the world, in their eyes, they did freaking WWE hardcore comedy spots, namely a swirlee.

 

-It was actually a WCW hardcore spot first. (Kevin Sullivan, if memory serves)

-When WCW did it, it was not played for laughs.

-What universe do you live in that forcing one man's head into a toilet is not an act of complete hatred?

 

Onyx wins with a side slam off the apron through another table for the victory. C’mon, another big guy who uses a side slam for a finisher? At least use a powerbomb or something as a finisher, a side slam is just poor.

 

-Personally, I LOATHE a lot of the NU HOTTNESS finishers that are these wacky, Rube Goldberg, Lift, Rotate, juggle an orange, Drop finishers. As an example, the Vertical Suplex, to me is a perfectly acceptable finishing move, while the Jack-Hammer is a piece of shit.

-That said, the Big Boss Man's finisher was NEVER cool, and I totally agree that Onyx needs to use something else.

 

In summary, while I may not agree with everything that was said in the review, I think that it was very well written and and that as a review it was fair to the IWS and its wrestlers. I look forward to other reviews by the Paradise City Ninjas, and not just ones written about the IWS...

 

[sHAMELESS SHILLING BASTARD IS ME] And if you would like to read more IWS reviews by the Paradise City Ninjaz than PLEASE click over to http://xrv.com/iws/ and order an IWS VHS tape or DVD today or e-mail the IWS at [email protected] and tell Kyle that the Paradice City Ninjaz sent you! [/sHAMELESS SHILLING BASTARD IS ME]

 

**********************************************************************

 

As a private aside to Jay:

 

First of all, you shouldn't really be thanking me for the tape. I may be the guy who talks to you guys, but the person responsible for sending you the tape is Kyle, and the person responsible for you getting it so quickly is Amber.

 

Second of all, could you PLEASE stop giving away my secret FUCKING identity? Where's the FUCKING respect for kayfabe? Oh yeah, I forgot you're "Smart Marks" What's next? Are you going to drive to Mexico and start yelling out El Hijo del Santo's real name at shows? Actually, that would kind of fun to watch. Painful, though and you probably wouldn't survive the experience.

Edited July 11, 2003 by Llakor

[Guest Sandman9000]

Jeez Llakor, I've written college papers that were shorter then that.

 

But first, on behalf of Jay and Tom, we thank you and the entire IWS for being gracious enough to send us Know Your Enemies for us to review, not knowing how we would react to it. It could have been an absolute nightmare for the IWS had we destroyed the tape and trashed the federation. Yet the IWS had enough faith in three "smart marks," two of which have never written a review before (me n' Jay), NONE of which had seen any IWS previous to the review (with the exception of me, I've seen the Arsenal & Green Phantom vs. Hardcore Ninjas match from CZW Tournament of Death, which isn't exactly the greatest representation of the IWS product), to send us their product and let us make our opinions known. And for that I thank you.

 

I think I pointed out the aspect of live vs. tape during my thoughts on the show. It's no surprise that events come out much better when you are there in person rather watching the event at a later time and location, virtually through someone else's eyes (the camera crew, whom I must commend on doing an excellent job. I've never seen an indy with a three camera crew before, and all involved worked well). The crowd may have been going bananas on that night, but it didn't come through on the video tape.

 

When we had finished the review and was looking over it, the three of us were legitimately worried over how people would react to it. We knew some people would dislike it, that's life, you can't please everyone, but we wondered if anyone would like it, specifically those in the IWS. There was mild debate over whether or not we should lighten the review some, in an attempt to please those who had sent us the tape, but that was quickly dismissed. If we're going to be fair in our reviews, and we plan on doing more, then we need to be honest with what we like and dislike. The three of us have different tastes: I'm the garbage-loving bloodmark, Jay likes technical wrestling more, and Tom's in love with Sal Rinnauro, among other things he likes. Hopefully these tastes and writing styles (we all made a conscious effort to use different ratings systems, for whatever reason), will be able to stand out more in future reviews.

 

That being said, let me address your disagreements about our review and opinions.

 

1) El Generico.

 

With the "yardtard" comment, that's Jay. You'll have to take that up with him.

 

Personally, I get a kick out of the gimmick, and the whole "jobber that never jobs" aspect. I'm not sure as to whether or not Tom and Jay knew about that when they watched his matches, and if so that's partially my fault for not informing them.

 

That being said, neither of his two matches really impressed me. Aside from his two highspots, which were impressive, he came off as all flash and no substance to me. He's the jobber that never jobs, not the incarnation of what Americans view Lucha Libre as, correct?

 

In terms of who he was facing, we didn't know that Generico was facing the two stiffest men in the company. That wasn't obvious to us, vs. watching a Kawada or Low-Ki match. I guess kudos to Kamikaze and Roooooooooooooooooooooooooooooyds! for masking their stiffness.

 

2) Angry Aryans

 

Racist gimmicks are almost always on the bad side of that fine line between entertainment and offensiveness. The Aryans were no exception, and I'm glad that they've changed their gimmick. I can tolerate english hate vs. minority hate, for whatever foolish reason. I dunno.

 

As for the match, yes it was short, and yes the Aryans got their asses handed to him, but incredibly violent? Not in my book. To me, and this is probably because of how desentizised I am to violence thanks to deathmatches (damn you Wifebeater!), but incredibly violent would be the Aryans bleeding gushers, beaten to within an inch of their lives, and stretchered out of the ring to further sell the beating, with the audience unsure of whether or not we'd ever see them again. The table spot did impress me, but Viking (I believe it was Viking) got up and ran away from that, and threatened to fight another day. Sure, he got beaten up, but he was still able to get away under his own power. Was the match violent? Yes. Was it incredibly violent? Not in my book.

 

And the barbed wire 2x4 looked cheap as hell, especially when it broke. In my eyes, that brought the violence down and lowered the match.

 

3) Beef

 

In the end, I don't think we were praising the match as much as we were praising Beef himself. To me, the match came off as a showcase for Beef's skills, which were impressive. Beef could get over anywhere, especially Philly.

 

With the hand injury, I've seen the clip, and to me, it looks like he breaks his hand on the landing, not on the buttocks of Latino Mysterio, but I could be wrong.

 

4) Match lengths

 

I think the only time match lengths were brought up was the Kamikaze/Generico and Phantom/Onyx matches, and we felt they went a little too long. It's good that you don't have match times set in stone, and again, it's bad if something that really should take five minutes ends up taking twenty. It looked like Onyx was tired in the third fall (can't say I blame him, he's a big guy), and the end effect could have been accomplished in twenty minutes instead of thirty.

 

5) Ladder match.

 

Hey! That's not a complaint at all! You tricked me! Damn you!

 

6) Phantom/Onyx

 

In terms of those two fighting over Le Skratch, you interpretted it as the two of them being unable to keep their hatred in the ring, and taking it outside. To me, it was another crowd brawl. I've seen so many matches spill into the crowd and beyond that I don't see it as hatred unleashed, but as an excuse to brawl around.

 

With the feud buildup, the announcers touched on it, but adding some kind of video history would have helped immensenly.

 

The swirlee spot is passed off as a comedy spot mostly nowdays, not a "I hate you so much that I want to drown you in this here toliet" spot. It's been devalued so much that it was hard for me to take it credibly. Had those two begun bashing each other into that wall urinal in Le Skratch, I would have been impressed/grossed out more.

 

My complaint of Onyx's finisher, is that he's using a transition move for a finisher. Sure, a person could use a vertical suplex as a finisher, but no one would buy it. Unless that person had his vertical suplex built up as death, that an opponent would do anything within their power to avoid it, for being hit by that vertical suplex would be defeat. Closest comparison I can think of is OVW's Nick Dinsmore's German suplex. A side slam off the apron through a table works as a finisher, but so does most moves off the apron through a table. With a guy Onyx's size, especially in comparison to the rest of the roster, using a power move such as a powerbomb works. Best way I can think of to cement my point: Lauderdale's finisher (what Sean O'Haire uses) = impressive. Onyx's finisher = not impressive.

 

And I wouldn't go bashing the Big Bossman around here. People like him, for whatever reason....

 

Again, we thank you for your opinions and thoughts on our review. It's only our first review, and we plan on getting better. (Well, Jay and Tom do. As for me, someone's gotta be the weak link.) We're planning on our next review to be CZW's Best of the Best 3, and we'll hit up IWA-MS, NWA Wildside, ROH (maybe), more CZW, and hopefully more IWS in our reviews. As a pesonal shill, I'll be reviewing CZW's Tournament of Death, in anticipation of me journying down to the magical world of Delaware for TOD2.

 

And I don't know El Hijo del Santo's real name. Or speak Spanish. I've taken Spanish in Jr. High, High School, and College, and I sucked all three times.