10 puro questions

[Guest]

1).  What's the general consensus on the Mutoh v Nagata 2001 G1 Final?  I watched it for the first time a couple of days ago and though it was pretty ace...about ****1/2.

 

2).  Did Kawada and Mutoh have their Dome match in February?  If so, was it any good?

 

3).  What did you guys make of the Champions Carnival '97 final?  Taken as one whole match, I'd give it *****.  As three separate I give them ****1/2, ** and ****1/4.  Don't you think that Kawada's first singles victory over Misawa was a bit anti-climatic though?  Either Kawada should have already beaten Misawa before '97, or Misawa and Kobashi should have changed position in the match.

 

4).  What's the situation with Kobashi?

 

5).  Do you think Liger will ever be successful as a heavyweight?  From what I've seen, he had an impressive G1 in 2001 and looked really good.

 

6).  Has anyone got the Misawa tape with six matches on.  One against Kawada (from '92), one against Taue, two against William's and two against Hansen.  It's just that I'm looking for dates and match ratings.

 

7).  What Puro matches from 2000 are worth picking up?

 

8).  Five greatest women wrestlers ever?  I'm really looking to get into Joshi.  I've ordered both Dreamslam cards and the Egg Universe tape, but I'm looking for more.

 

9).  What's Kawada's Gamengiri (sp)?  Is it the jumping roundhouse kick to the head?

 

10).  Any great Kawada matches from before '92?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"1).  What's the general consensus on the Mutoh v Nagata 2001 G1 Final?  I watched it for the first time a couple of days ago and though it was pretty ace...about ****1/2."

 

I thought it was around 3 1/2 to 3 3/4.  Maybe a little lower if I ever were to rewatch it, which would be unlikely.  It's one of those "Mutoh is God" matches that is really carried by the opponent.

 

"2).  Did Kawada and Mutoh have their Dome match in February?  If so, was it any good?"

 

Not in Dome.  It was on PPV.  Plan on seeing it within the next two weeks.

 

"3).  What did you guys make of the Champions Carnival '97 final?  Taken as one whole match, I'd give it *****.  As three separate I give them ****1/2, ** and ****1/4.  Don't you think that Kawada's first singles victory over Misawa was a bit anti-climatic though?  Either Kawada should have already beaten Misawa before '97, or Misawa and Kobashi should have changed position in the match."

 

Haven't seen.  I have heard great things about Misawa v Kobashi.  The Misawa v Kawada match, being on 8 minutes long and Kawada's first pin would most likely be a major let down.  It isn't high on my priority list.

 

"4).  What's the situation with Kobashi?"

 

Knee's are still fucked.  He wants to come back again, but I somehow doubt it will be more than 1 more match.

 

"5).  Do you think Liger will ever be successful as a heavyweight?  From what I've seen, he had an impressive G1 in 2001 and looked really good."

 

No, because of the nature of the business.  If people sell right for smaller guys, they can always look credible.  But selfishness seems to always prevail.

 

"7).  What Puro matches from 2000 are worth picking up?"

 

I haven't a clue.  Probably 12/00 Nagata/Iuzuka v Kawada/Fuchi.  But other than that, I can't think of anything I would run out and get if you don't already have it.

 

"10).  Any great Kawada matches from before '92?"

 

Tons, too many to list here.

 

Tim

[Guest TopSecretMan]

1).  What's the general consensus on the Mutoh v Nagata 2001 G1 Final?  I watched it for the first time a couple of days ago and though it was pretty ace...about ****1/2.

 

***1/4

 

2).  Did Kawada and Mutoh have their Dome match in February?  If so, was it any good?

 

It got plenty of good reviews from the people who saw it live that I talked to...but I haven't seen it yet to comment.

 

3).  What did you guys make of the Champions Carnival '97 final?  Taken as one whole match, I'd give it *****.  As three separate I give them ****1/2, ** and ****1/4.  Don't you think that Kawada's first singles victory over Misawa was a bit anti-climatic though?  Either Kawada should have already beaten Misawa before '97, or Misawa and Kobashi should have changed position in the match.

 

It was an abortion in terms of Kawada's win over Misawa. The other two matches were pretty good though.

 

4).  What's the situation with Kobashi?

 

He came back and reinjured his knees immediately.

 

5).  Do you think Liger will ever be successful as a heavyweight?  From what I've seen, he had an impressive G1 in 2001 and looked really good.

 

No.

 

6).  Has anyone got the Misawa tape with six matches on.  One against Kawada (from '92), one against Taue, two against William's and two against Hansen.  It's just that I'm looking for dates and match ratings.

 

7).  What Puro matches from 2000 are worth picking up?

 

Zenjo 11/23/00

 

8).  Five greatest women wrestlers ever?  I'm really looking to get into Joshi.  I've ordered both Dreamslam cards and the Egg Universe tape, but I'm looking for more.

 

Jaguar Yokota, Jackie Sato, Akira Hokuto, Lioness Asuka, are probably among the best ever. If you want recent joshi, feel free to email me.

 

9).  What's Kawada's Gamengiri (sp)?  Is it the jumping roundhouse kick to the head?

 

Yup

 

10).  Any great Kawada matches from before '92?

 

He was in lots of great tags, but I'm not sure about singles matches...there might be one against Jumbo from 91 that I've heard about and not seen, but I'm not 100%.

[Guest wolverine]

"1).  What's the general consensus on the Mutoh v Nagata 2001 G1 Final?  I watched it for the first time a couple of days ago and though it was pretty ace...about ****1/2."

 

Haven't seen it and don't plan to.  I think Mutoh sucks and Nagata is slightly overrated.

 

"2).  Did Kawada and Mutoh have their Dome match in February?  If so, was it any good?"

 

It was at Budokan Hall.  Guys like Meltzer and Zach Arnold are pimping it like it's some sort of classic.  Considering they're the same people who thought their match last year was a great match, I'll stay away from this.

 

"3).  What did you guys make of the Champions Carnival '97 final?  Taken as one whole match, I'd give it *****.  As three separate I give them ****1/2, ** and ****1/4.  Don't you think that Kawada's first singles victory over Misawa was a bit anti-climatic though?  Either Kawada should have already beaten Misawa before '97, or Misawa and Kobashi should have changed position in the match."

 

Misawa vs. Kobashi is an excellent draw, about ****1/4.  It doesn't hold a candle to their matches in January or October though.  Misawa vs. Kawada is just a short, one sided squash.  Very anti-climactic.  Kobashi vs. Kawada is another excellent match, about ****.

 

"4).  What's the situation with Kobashi?"

 

His knees are screwed up and he'll never be the same again.

 

"5).  Do you think Liger will ever be successful as a heavyweight?  From what I've seen, he had an impressive G1 in 2001 and looked really good."

 

No, fans don't take him seriously against heavyweights.  Besides, his best days have long since passed, but he's still an excellent worker.  Pretty amazing, huh?

 

"6).  Has anyone got the Misawa tape with six matches on.  One against Kawada (from '92), one against Taue, two against William's and two against Hansen.  It's just that I'm looking for dates and match ratings."

 

There isn't *one* tape with these matches.  They are spread out over many volumes.

 

"7).  What Puro matches from 2000 are worth picking up?"

 

Kawada vs. Kobashi 1/17/00, Misawa vs. Kawada 3/31/00, Misawa vs. Kobashi 4/11/00, Kobashi vs. Omori 4/15/00.  These are all excellent matches.  I'm behind on my Joshi stuff from 2000.

 

"8).  Five greatest women wrestlers ever?  I'm really looking to get into Joshi.  I've ordered both Dreamslam cards and the Egg Universe tape, but I'm looking for more."

 

Great choices.  The Manami Toyota vs. Aja Kong match from Big Egg is the best match overall on those shows.  I know I'm in the minority with that opinion, but I just love the shit out of that match.  As far as greatest women's wrestlers ever, I haven't seen nearly enough to comment.  Manami Toyota has impressed me the most with her fire and unbelievable athleticism.  I love Aja Kong's brutality and Akira Hokuto's psychology.  Really hard question...

 

"9).  What's Kawada's Gamengiri (sp)?  Is it the jumping roundhouse kick to the head?"

 

Yeah

 

"10).  Any great Kawada matches from before '92?"

 

Sure, there's tons and tons.  Ever heard of the Misawa & Co. vs. Jumbo & Co. feud?  Because it's probably the best feud ever and it took place from 1990-1992.

[Guest MrDanger]

).  What's the general consensus on the Mutoh v Nagata 2001 G1 Final?  I watched it for the first time a couple of days ago and though it was pretty ace...about ****1/2

 

Some of the ratings in this thread are ridiculous. The match is fantastic once Mutoh wakes up from his coma, most sensible people rate it in the ****1/4-****1/2 range.

 

 

4).  What's the situation with Kobashi?

 

One of his knees literally has a hole in it, not good news.

 

 

5).  Do you think Liger will ever be successful as a heavyweight?  From what I've seen, he had an impressive G1 in 2001 and looked really good.

 

He'll have mild success as a part-time underdog heavyweight since he's the assistant booker to Masa Chono these days.

 

 

7).  What Puro matches from 2000 are worth picking up?

 

Try checking out Jun Akiyama vs Mitsuharu Misawa 2-27, Misawa tries to re-create Jumbo/Misawa and nearly succeeds.

 

 

8).  Five greatest women wrestlers ever?  I'm really looking to get into Joshi.  I've ordered both Dreamslam cards and the Egg Universe tape, but I'm looking for more.

 

Manami Toyota, Aja Kong, Lioness Asuka, Dynamite Kansai and Chigusa Nagoya are mine, it all comes down to personal choice really since there's so many to choose from. Also try checking out Meiko Satomura's work over the last few years, she'll blow you away

 

 

10).  Any great Kawada matches from before '92?

 

Literally dozens of top matches to choose from. Check out Jumbo Tsuruta vs Toshiaki Kawada 11/3/91.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Why is a lower rating so ridiculous?  Mutoh decided to do nothing on the mat (which is usual) and then the final half of the match was standard New Japan Heavy stuff meaning it isn't bad, but it certainly isn't great.  

 

4 1/2 for me is a MOTYC.  So 4 1/4 would be a match that is just missing something to make it a MOTYC.  This match was missing a lot more, like actual work in the body of the match, though the build to the finish was decent.  

 

But then again, I am in the group that thinks Nagata is just like Minoru Tanaka, internet darlings who seem to have gotten worse over time.......not to mention over rated.  But to each his own.

 

Tim, proud to be "not sensible"

[Guest Jubuki]

1).  What's the general consensus on the Mutoh v Nagata 2001 G1 Final?  I watched it for the first time a couple of days ago and though it was pretty ace...about ****1/2.

 

I'd be shocked if it were that good.  From what I've seen, Nagata isn't capable of it, and the match with Tenryu was Mutoh reaching about as high as he can while his opponent has a mythic performance.  If I weren't backlogged, I'd watch it.  Got more important stuff ahead of me than that, so maybe I'll get back to this question in a month.

 

2).  Did Kawada and Mutoh have their Dome match in February?  If so, was it any good?

 

I was told it was on par with the April 01 match.  Take that for what it's worth (next to nothing to me and many others).

 

3).  What did you guys make of the Champions Carnival '97 final?  Taken as one whole match, I'd give it *****.

 

Well, seeing as how it's not one whole match, that can be thrown away.

 

As three separate I give them ****1/2, ** and ****1/4.  Don't you think that Kawada's first singles victory over Misawa was a bit anti-climatic though?

 

Well duh.  That Kobashi's first pin of any kind was a singles win (in the league portion that year) which came before Kawada's singles win was ridiculous, too...but that was unimportant as it didn't even make TV.

 

4).  What's the situation with Kobashi?

 

Besides the fact that he's a dumbass, his knee is shot again.  Bye-bye to late-life ambulation, Kenta...

 

5).  Do you think Liger will ever be successful as a heavyweight?  From what I've seen, he had an impressive G1 in 2001 and looked really good.

 

"What?"

 

Liger's a Jr.  End of story.

 

6).  Has anyone got the Misawa tape with six matches on.  One against Kawada (from '92), one against Taue, two against William's and two against Hansen.  It's just that I'm looking for dates and match ratings.

 

Uhh...sounds like it's all you there...list the times and endings, and maybe someone can decipher the mess.

 

7).  What Puro matches from 2000 are worth picking up?

 

LCO/Maekawa vs. Ito/Momo/Nana 11/23, Sano vs. Tanaka 1/30, Fuchi/Kawada vs. Nagata/Iizuka 12/14, Misawa/Akiyama 2/27.  Most of the other really good stuff is Lucha.

 

8).  Five greatest women wrestlers ever?  I'm really looking to get into Joshi.  I've ordered both Dreamslam cards and the Egg Universe tape, but I'm looking for more.

 

I'll take Scott's 4 and add on Aja.  Well, I dunno, maybe Bull or Toyota.  Hard to pick that last of the 5, even though I review much of the Joshi in the land (more than damn near anyone else, at least).

 

10).  Any great Kawada matches from before '92?

 

RWTL 12/88 final match vs. Hansen/Gordy

10/28/90 6-man

4/20/91 6-man

10/24/91 vs. Jumbo, TC match

[Guest wolverine]

"Try checking out Jun Akiyama vs Mitsuharu Misawa 2-27, Misawa tries to re-create Jumbo/Misawa and nearly succeeds."

 

A few problems with that statement:

 

a) The match isn't nearly as good as Misawa vs. Jumbo 6/8/90

 

b) Misawa wasn't nearly as good as Jumbo was in 1990

 

c) Akiyama wasn't nearly as good as Misawa was in 1990

 

So I would not say it came close to duplicating that match, because they're two different animals completely.

[Guest MrDanger]

Why is a lower rating so ridiculous?  Mutoh decided to do nothing on the mat (which is usual) and then the final half of the match was standard New Japan Heavy stuff meaning it isn't bad, but it certainly isn't great.  

 

4 1/2 for me is a MOTYC.  So 4 1/4 would be a match that is just missing something to make it a MOTYC.  This match was missing a lot more, like actual work in the body of the match, though the build to the finish was decent.  

 

But then again, I am in the group that thinks Nagata is just like Minoru Tanaka, internet darlings who seem to have gotten worse over time.......not to mention over rated.  But to each his own.

 

Tim, proud to be "not sensible"

Jesus christ man, get your head out of your arse. Your "rating scale" is not followed by everybody else, believe it or not.

 

Mutoh vs Nagata placed in the top 5 in both the Observer and Puroresu Power year end awards if I recall, we're talking about 8000 Observer subscribers and thousands more who voted at Puroresu Power. Even Stuart Max called it a MOTYC and rated it at ****1/4. The people have spoken, Mutoh/Nagata was damn good.

 

***1/2? Nagata overrated? Give me a break

[Guest MrDanger]

"Try checking out Jun Akiyama vs Mitsuharu Misawa 2-27, Misawa tries to re-create Jumbo/Misawa and nearly succeeds."

 

A few problems with that statement:

 

a) The match isn't nearly as good as Misawa vs. Jumbo 6/8/90

 

b) Misawa wasn't nearly as good as Jumbo was in 1990

 

c) Akiyama wasn't nearly as good as Misawa was in 1990

That's why it didn't succeed it's objective! All those points would be perfectly valid if I said it matched Jumbo/Misawa

 

 

Danger...Who feels like he's talking to a brick wall with some people

[Guest wolverine]

"Jesus christ man, get your head out of your arse. Your "rating scale" is not followed by everybody else, believe it or not."

 

Believe it or not, Tim's right on the money with his ratings that I've seen.  

 

"Mutoh vs Nagata placed in the top 5 in both the Observer and Puroresu Power"

 

Puroresu Power?  The vast majority of those people are Mutoh marks, so I would take that with a grain of salt.  Oh, and Mutoh-Nagata finished number 12 in the Observer Poll, sir.

 

"year end awards if I recall, we're talking about 8000 Observer subscribers"

 

Wow, *all* 8000 people voted in the awards?  That's news to me.  If you count all of the first place votes for Match of the Year, the number is 678, which is 678 voters right there.  Plus, if you take into account all of the Honorable Mention votes, you'd probably wind up with something like 800-900 voters.  So I'd suggest you get your facts straight.

 

"and thousands more who voted at Puroresu Power. Even Stuart Max called it a MOTYC and rated it at ****1/4. The people have spoken, Mutoh/Nagata was damn good."

 

Not having seen the match I can't say, but judging from Mutoh-Kawada and Mutoh-Tenryu last year, it was pretty clear that Mutoh wasn't Damn Good.

 

"***1/2? Nagata overrated? Give me a break"

 

What has he done lately?  Surely, he and Akiyama should have had a ****+ match at the Tokyo Dome, and since you used Meltzer as an example, he didn't even give it ****.

[Guest wolverine]

"That's why it didn't succeed it's objective! All those points would be perfectly valid if I said it matched Jumbo/Misawa"

 

Yeah, it sure didn't.  And it also didn't *nearly* succeed it either.

 

Wouldn't it have been clearer if you would have just said, "Misawa tries to re-create Jumbo/Misawa and doesn't do it."  

 

I mean that's what you're saying in the long run, may as well say it up front.....

[Guest Jubuki]

Your "rating scale" is not followed by everybody else, believe it or not.

 

Very true; not everyone agrees with Tim, or me, or wolverine, or anyone else you can name, for that matter.  That's most of the fun.

 

But why is it that you feel the need to admonish Tim for his thoughts on the match when all you do is A) defend a match by pointing out others who like it and B) bring up their rating scales as though all those people agree wholeheartedly about the match?  After all, it's not followed by everybody else, believe it or not.  Until you come up with some sort of half-reasoned defense for the match that doesn't involve falling back into the safe arms of others, quit trolling.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

see below, my computer isn't allowing me to use this quote system right at the moment.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Jesus christ man, get your head out of your arse. Your "rating scale" is not followed by everybody else, believe it or not.

 

Not true.  My actual ratings that are given to matches may not be the same, but I thought it was pretty commonly accepted that a 4****1/2 match was a MOTYC?  Maybe I am wrong though....

 

Mutoh vs Nagata placed in the top 5 in both the Observer and Puroresu Power year end awards if I recall, we're talking about 8000 Observer subscribers and thousands more who voted at Puroresu Power.

 

Wolverine already cleared up this little bit of non factual stuff.

 

Even Stuart Max called it a MOTYC and rated it at ****1/4. The people have spoken, Mutoh/Nagata was damn good.

 

I like Stuart and his reviews.  He clearly watches more NJPW and NOAH that is current than most that I know.  So I trust his opinion for what it is worth.  But just because he calls that match 4 1/4 doesn't mean it really is........you have implied just because I rate the match 3 1/2 it is not right, so why is Stuart's right then?  A little bit of contradiction, eh?

 

***1/2? Nagata overrated? Give me a break

 

*** and above for me is worth *eventually* seeing.  ****+ is something that I not only want to see but need to see.  So I look at my 3 1/2 rating for that match and am implying that the match is overall something good with some obvious flaws that keeps it out of the 4 star range.

 

Arguing star ratings is subjective.  Arguing the quality of matches with star ratings as a comparison is not.  If I am to give a match 3 1/2 and another 3 1/2, it can be assumed that I felt they were of the same quality.

 

It is like the Tenyru v Mutoh match.  I *never* thought that match was anything mindblowing, but I was impressed that too old farts could go at a pace that they did, esepcially Tenyru.  But beyond that aspect, the match brought on things in the ***1/2-***3/4 range for me.  Because let's face it, HHH will keep moving in matches and at least look like he working hard.  Does that mean his matches are good?  Of course not, because he is nothing more than an average wrestler at best who will bump a little more than some people.

 

Tim, proud to be non sensible if it means being able to see what 2001 was really like for Mr. "Wrestling Love" Mutoh.

[Guest]

I've only watched the match once and it seemed to stand out and I originally gave it ****1/2.  However, I've seen a relatively small amount of Puro so I'm always a bit sceptical about my ratings!  I checked with Stuart's website and he gave it ****1/4 which I took as a good sign as normally his ratings are quite stingy by most standards.

 

Anyway the match.  I thought it was impressive as the mat work seemed so much more legit with a guy like Nagata in there and unlike a lot of matches, it was very plausible that one of the submissions would get the victory (which actually happened).  I didn't know what the result of the match was going to be (virtually a first with me and puro) so I guess my rating kinda reflects the excitement I felt when watching.

 

"Uhh...sounds like it's all you there...list the times and endings, and maybe someone can decipher the mess."

 

Sorry, I just thought someone might recognise the tape from my brief description.  I'm writing a review on the tape right now so hopefully someone can help me out and the thread I post it on.

[Guest]

OK, check out the 'Best of Misawa Tape Review' thread.  You should be able to recognise the matches from my reviews.

[Guest MrDanger]

1) Puroresu Power?  The vast majority of those people are Mutoh marks, so I would take that with a grain of salt.  

 

 

2) Wow, *all* 8000 people voted in the awards?  That's news to me.  If you count all of the first place votes for Match of the Year, the number is 678, which is 678 voters right there.  Plus, if you take into account all of the Honorable Mention votes, you'd probably wind up with something like 800-900 voters.  So I'd suggest you get your facts straight.

 

 

 

3) What has he done lately?  Surely, he and Akiyama should have had a ****+ match at the Tokyo Dome, and since you used Meltzer as an example, he didn't even give it ****.

1) That's a pretty sweeping statement to make. I'm not a big Mutoh fan but I thought his match with Nagata was one of the top 5 men's matches of the year.

 

2) I obviously never said 8,000 people voted in the awards, get your facts straight.

 

3) What has he done lately? Well his match with Akiyama should have been better, however getting your ass kicked a few days earlier normally affects your performance both physically and mentally. He did have a rather good match with Manabu Nakanishi in the IWGP title tournament, which might  be Nakanishi's best ever singles match. Then you have the 2/17  Noah tag match, which Meltzer pimped at ****1/2, I haven't seen the match yet but I'd be surprised if it was lower than ***1/2. Not a bad couple of months for a overrated worker if you ask me.

[Guest MrDanger]

1) Not true.  My actual ratings that are given to matches may not be the same, but I thought it was pretty commonly accepted that a 4****1/2 match was a MOTYC?  Maybe I am wrong though....

 

2) I like Stuart and his reviews.  He clearly watches more NJPW and NOAH that is current than most that I know.  So I trust his opinion for what it is worth.  But just because he calls that match 4 1/4 doesn't mean it really is........you have implied just because I rate the match 3 1/2 it is not right, so why is Stuart's right then?  A little bit of contradiction, eh?

1) It all depends on the quality of matches during the year if you ask me. For me, a ****1/4 match is a MOTYC when the best thing I've seen all year is ****1/2 (Mutoh/Tenryu, Ito/Nakanishi and possibly Austin/Benoit)

 

2) I didn't say you were wrong, I just thought your rating was ridiculous, obviously just a opinion on my part. If you want me to tell why I think so highly of Mutoh/Nagata then I'm quite happy to analyse the match once I get time to watch it again. Lastly, I quoted Stuart Max because he would tell you himself that he doesn't just throw out high star ratings for any old match, when he rates anything above **** I tend to find that particular match is something special.