Guest Judas14 Report post Posted February 8, 2002 The most shocking comic book moment IMHO had to be the return of Norman Osborn at the conclusion of the Clone Saga. It was something no one saw coming and was pretty much was shocking given how for many years the death of the original Green Goblin was one of Marvel's holy cows that you would never expect Marvel to undo.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest J*ingus Report post Posted February 8, 2002 I think the most shocking moment in comic books would be [insert last issue of any Alan Moore series here]. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Judas14 Report post Posted February 8, 2002 I think the most shocking moment in comic books would be [insert last issue of any Alan Moore series here]. Except for Moore's Swamp Thing run, which ended with ST and Abby building a house of all things.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Shockmaster! Report post Posted February 8, 2002 All time: Joker popping a cap in Barbara Gordon/Batgirl Most recent: Ra's Al Ghul revealed as the villain behing all of the Legion's troubles in the new LEGION series Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dark Lotus Report post Posted February 8, 2002 It's gotta be the death of Chronic. No one saw that coming. Seriously, my pick is when they killed Robin. That was the first time a franchise character like that had died and they didn't bring him back or somehow weasel out of it. He's dead, dead, dead. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Annoyed Grunt Report post Posted February 8, 2002 For me it would be when Aunt May revealed she knew Peter was Spidey in ASM#400. That issue also ahd May's touching death scene too, but the whole issue kind of looses its effect when you look at evererything that has happened since. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest netslob Report post Posted February 9, 2002 When the Thunderbolts were revealed as the Masters of Evil, i did a double take and reread the last page of "T-Bolts #1" three times. EXCELLENT idea from Busiek. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Sassquatch Report post Posted February 9, 2002 Judas, what in the blue hell are you talking about? Norman Osborn being brought back was predicted by a ton of people MONTHS before he was actually brought back. I swear Judas, it almost seems like you ENJOYED the Clone Saga. That's scary. And Judas, Marvel was in the toilet as far as creativity goes, and bringing back Osborn was the apex of this. It was ONE of the lamest and most asinine things Marvel had done and spitted on a really great story that should have been left alone. It was a bullshit hack "shock style" surprise that left many people (including myself) shaking our heads. Judas, just admit you liked the Clone Saga from start to finish (which ironically caused Spidey to go down the crapper). This was one of those things that Wizard WAS right in making fun of. This was THE lowest point Spidey had/has ever been in and the sales and later cancellation of the first series proved it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest J*ingus Report post Posted February 9, 2002 Upon further consideration, I'd say THE most shocking moment is in Watchman. "Villain": What do you mean, "can't let me do it?" I did it twenty-four minutes ago. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest areacode212 Report post Posted February 9, 2002 For now I'll go with "President McCauley" being revealed as Ra's Al Ghul. I read about the Tbolts/Masters of Evil thing in Wizard a few months after the issue came out (and promptly went to the comic store and bought it), so it wasn't really a shocker to me when I read it. Hm. Did any of you guys read last month's issue of Superman (#178) ? That contained something...pretty damn shocking, but I haven't seen anyone discuss it here (or at the old board). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Sassquatch Report post Posted February 9, 2002 Sorry 212 old buddy, but I refuse to buy anything Superman related after the revamp debacle from 2000 that almost caused Mark Waid to think about retiring. Just tell me in another thread with a "spoiler" warning or something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Judas14 Report post Posted February 9, 2002 Judas, what in the blue hell are you talking about? Norman Osborn being brought back was predicted by a ton of people MONTHS before he was actually brought back. I swear Judas, it almost seems like you ENJOYED the Clone Saga. That's scary. And Judas, Marvel was in the toilet as far as creativity goes, and bringing back Osborn was the apex of this. It was ONE of the lamest and most asinine things Marvel had done and spitted on a really great story that should have been left alone. It was a bullshit hack "shock style" surprise that left many people (including myself) shaking our heads. Judas, just admit you liked the Clone Saga from start to finish (which ironically caused Spidey to go down the crapper). This was one of those things that Wizard WAS right in making fun of. This was THE lowest point Spidey had/has ever been in and the sales and later cancellation of the first series proved it. Corrections corrections corrections. The Clone Saga actually sold VERY well and by 1996 the Spiderman books were the only Marvel books that had gained in sales as nearly all of Marvel's books at the time had either stabilized saleswise (X-Men) or were going downhill (Iron Man, FF, Avengers, Capt. America) in the three years that it started. Granted one could argue that the sales increased mainly do to Marvel adapting the weekly serial format for the Spiderman books during this time period ala Superman, but the facts show that sales didn't drop because of the Clone Saga... The books enjoyed healthy sales until the reboot (which was brought about not because of poor sales but because the suits wanted to boost sales even more by way of creating a new #1 Amazing Spiderman and PP:SM). The rebooting plus the abortion that were the Howard Mackie/John Byrne regime and their anemic stories were what killed the sales which only recovered when JMS took over ASM..... As for the Spiderclone Saga, I'll repeat my position on it: For the most part it was bad BUT what came afterwords in the form of the Gathering of the 5/Final Chapter/Chapter One/Reboot quartet was FAR WORSE than the Clone Saga was and caused MUCH MORE damage than the Clone Saga.... The Clone Saga at least had the elements of Marvel moving Spiderman to the next level (Aunt May dies, MJ has a child, PP retires, and a new Spiderman costume). The Gathering of the 5/Final Chapter/Chapter One/Reboot quartet was out and out regression of the Spiderman character and franchise back to the 1960s reguardless of how it would kill sales and alienate fans. After all, did we really need MJ killed off, Aunt May brought back in the manner that she died, and Chapter One???? It was bad but what came after it was even worse in other words and makes even the bad look good in retrospect.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Vyce Report post Posted February 9, 2002 I have to agree on the Watchmen. When Ozymandias informed us all that he had ALREADY completed his master plan, I was floored. It was brilliant. The villain actually WON. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MaskedDanger Report post Posted February 9, 2002 Glad someone mentioned that scene from Watchmen. I remember the first time I read that panel. I was sixteen, had just bought the trade paperback of the series that was (and still is) considered to be the Holy Bible of comic books and I was excited. Kid at Christmas excited. The first time I read the book, I tore through it in one sitting. When I got to that panel where "The Bad Guy" turns around so calmly and explains how he beat all the heroes so, so badly, I shivered. I actually shivered. That, my friends, is what comics are all about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Shockmaster! Report post Posted February 10, 2002 Just because a book sells well doesn't mean its any good. Case in point: Spawn and Claremont's last go round on X-Men(before Xtreme) sold well but neither one was any good at all just like the crappy ass Clone Saga. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Sassquatch Report post Posted February 10, 2002 Thank you Shock. Judas, you fell into the rube trap. Using sales as a measuring stick to show how good a comic is, is a double standard. New X-Men is one of Marvel's best selling comics today. But you say it's a piece of crap and that Morrison is totally overrated. See what's going on? Greatness can't always be measured by sales as has been proven many times in the past. Ya know what? This weekend I'm going to find every price guide magazine I have and I will take the task of showing the sales for the Clone Saga in it's 25 + issue run in the Spidey comics. Crazy? Maybe. Anal? Could be. But the thing is...I'm curious to know the listing of each issue in terms of sales and just how good the Clone Saga did in overall and individual sales. If issue #117 of Web of Spider-Man shot up from spot 36 to 8 the next month, then I want to know it. This is something that I never really looked at and since we're talking about it, I want to find out more. It is a tough task but I am willing to go the distance in settling this situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
