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Guest JMA

What's so bad about Randy Orton?

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I also think the fans are getting tired of Vince telling them who is the best. I think the fans would rather watch the product and be able to make up their own minds. Orton is just another classic example of WWE "knowing what's best for the fans"

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but will give him one thing, Orton spent years in OVW to get to this point..

 

Unlike SOME Nonwrestler who shall remain Goldenly Nameless whom got dragged off the street and thrown into a Powerplant and into a SQUASH stint and World championship Blah.

 

Who might add is getting a Main event push now after what 4 months of being around the company?

Like him or not, people cared about Goldberg. They tuned in and paid to see HIM. It doesn't matter if you've paid your dues for a year, 5 years, 10 years, or not at all. If people make it clear that they want to see one perform by tuning in, buying his merchandise, ppvs, ect, he should be pushed, simple as that.

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Guest TheGame2705

That's a very good counter argument against Trivia247. Orton's spent years in OVW and he's been around a year in WWE and hasn't produced anything good. Goldberg spent not even a year in the power plant but he sold alot of merchandise and people wanted to watch him.

 

What's so bad about Randy Orton?

He injured himself doing his own finisher. I mean that's major suckage if you hurt yourself on your finisher. He also hasn't gotten any heat from pushing Mick Foley who just had everyone cheering for him, down a flight of stairs. I mean even Kevin Nash doing as little as he's done has way more heat than him.

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Guest Ghettoman

Why does everyone hate Randy Orton? His name isn't Benoit and he's getting a push, the same reason everyone else who gets hated on does.

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Guest Trivia247
That's a very good counter argument against Trivia247. Orton's spent years in OVW and he's been around a year in WWE and hasn't produced anything good. Goldberg spent not even a year in the power plant but he sold alot of merchandise and people wanted to watch him.

 

What's so bad about Randy Orton?

He injured himself doing his own finisher. I mean that's major suckage if you hurt yourself on your finisher. He also hasn't gotten any heat from pushing Mick Foley who just had everyone cheering for him, down a flight of stairs. I mean even Kevin Nash doing as little as he's done has way more heat than him.

my point was that Orton wrestling wise got more validations for his spot than goldy....

 

Of course Goldberg is popular with the marks who buy the shirts the bears the wrestling buddies.. probably went and saw Universal Soldier 2 just to see the 5 scenes total he is in.

 

If it was just pure popularity that people got pushes then there would be only the top tier wrestlers in the promotion and the rest would have gone to TNA

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Why does everyone hate Randy Orton? His name isn't Benoit and he's getting a push, the same reason everyone else who gets hated on does.

So you think that Orton is a charismatic young man who backs it up by putting on good matches in the ring?

 

Okay then...

 

The whole 'You only like guys named Benoit' argument is tired and played out. Hell- my current favourite wrestlers are Goldust and Regal

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I'll give you two very good reasons Goldberg is a failure in wwe.

 

One, they waited way too long to get a deal done to bring him in

 

Secondly, WWE used the "invasion" angle to destroy ANY credibility WCW had as a company and/or name value. Then when their own workers can't draw, they turn to a company who they just buried to come in and save the company. It is a disgrace and horrible business.

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Why don't I like Orton? Well there are plenty of better people in the company that could be in his position. People that are better at everything he does.

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Guest Kid Kablam

My problem is that whenver there is an interview with JR he automatically says that Randy Orton is the future of the business, when even with his push he's not half as over or talented as Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Hass, he has 1/20th the talent of CHavo Guerrero (also a 3rd generation star, of the legendary Guerrero family no less) and yet they make Orton their pet project. Their missing out on people that the crowd actually wants to see just to validate the guy they picked (in advance) as the next star.

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For me, it's almost not Orton I dislike, though I am sick of seeing him. It's that over and over again, WWE tells me how IMPORTANT he is and how is the FUTURE of the company. I'm just supposed to accept that.

 

Don't tell me. SHOW ME. Have Orton do something entertaining. Have him put on good matches. Have him cut wicked promos. Fling him off the Titantron, something. I'll decide if he's important, thank you very much.

 

If he isn't capable of any of that, then job him out on Heat or fire him, and go with someone on the roster who can deliver the goods.

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Guest Adrian 3:16
My problem is that whenver there is an interview with JR he automatically says that Randy Orton is the future of the business, when even with his push he's not half as over or talented as Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Hass

Haas and Benjamin are walking around with "The Greatest Tag Team Period" as their official team name and you're telling me that's not a verbal blowjob push just the same as Orton's? (and that's by no means a knock on them, Haas and Benjamin are two of my favorites)

 

I also love how certain people *cough Anglesault cough* will make claims that Orton is not over to justify their viewpoint. Granted, he doesn't get Austin/Rock level heat and probably never will- but who really does outside of Austin and Rock? He's still plenty over enough to play the lackey in a heel stable. Its fine if you don't like him, no one said you have to. But don't try to distort reality to back up your positions.

 

EDIT: or did they change the ex Team Angle to "The World's Greatest Tag Team" now? I haven't caught a full episode of Smackdown for a while now... Either way my point still stands.

Edited by Adrian 3:16

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I also love how certain people *cough Anglesault cough* will make claims that Orton is not over to justify their viewpoint. Granted, he doesn't get Austin/Rock level heat and probably never will- but who really does outside of Austin and Rock? He's still plenty over enough to play the lackey in a heel stable. Its fine if you don't like him, no one said you have to. But don't try to distort reality to back up your positions.

Oh come on now. There are lots of wrestlers who get a decent reaction on Raw, and could be elevated if WWE would work on them for more than .0004 seconds at a time. Hurricane comes to mind. Even tonight RVD got some chants when he came out, despite playing second fiddle to Shane McMahon.

 

These guys do not have Lawler and Orton going on about how great they are. They were not teamed up with Flair and HHH in the hopes that some heat would rub off on them.

 

And they are still more over than Orton.

 

When the audience cheers these guys, they are asking to see more of them.

 

Instead of doing something to meet that demand, they say "Now how can we get Orton to get reactions like that?" It's just bad economics.

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Guest Adrian 3:16
These guys do not have Lawler and Orton going on about how great they are. They were not teamed up with Flair and HHH in the hopes that some heat would rub off on them.

Well how else do you expect new guys to get heat, you have to push people sometimes. How else would you get him over if you were booking? And don't tell me "I would just fire him because he sux LOLZ" either. I've said it a million times, as a promoter you want every wrestler as over as possible, that's your good economics.

 

Now why push Orton over Hurricane you ask? Because Hurricane gets pops just for showing up. Orton needs to get actively pushed to get a reaction, if that means he sucks compared to Hurricane fine, call it what you want to call it. I'd also like to add that maybe the reason Hurricane gets the pops he does is because he runs around dressed like a comic book character? Just possibly maybe? He's certainly not a guy most people want to see in the main event, so why the outcry for his elevation?

 

Now RVD is a different animal. He's one of if not the most popular guy on Raw, and yes they've dropped the ball on him big time. And that has what to do with Orton? Exactly- nothing. I'd love to see RVD used better but until the day comes I don't see the point of Orton being badly used too just so RVD fans are vindicated someone else went down with him.

 

And one final thought: people say Orton's ring game sucks, and they might be right. But last I checked RVD is not that "good" a wrestler either- and this is coming from a long time fan of his. Like I said, if you like RVD and hate Orton, that's completely fine. But just come out and say as much instead of grasping at straws or contradicting yourself to back up your stance.

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RVD is entertaining though. His style has changed since coming to WWE, however this has already been discussed in another thread.

 

I think it also is quite suspicious that Lawler is the token HEEL ref, yet for someone like Jericho, he virtually NEVER constantly complimenting him like he does Orton or even Christian for that matter. He just sits there silent and maybe throws in an occassional, "be careful Y2J" It is so partial, and I am sure he is being told to do it.

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Guest Dmann2000
What's good about him?

 

He's yet to have a match that has made me say "Wow, push HIM!" while having multiple clunkers. He's not at all over, and his mic skills ae laughable.

But he gets HATE not criticism, I can understand criticism, but HATE, HATE?!?

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Guest Dmann2000

but will give him one thing, Orton spent years in OVW to get to this point..

Yeah, it's kind of sad years in OVW produced this

Hey, if you were in his position would you say "hey guys I suck, please don't push me, I should be Hurricaine's bitch"

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Guest Dmann2000
Why don't I like Orton? Well there are plenty of better people in the company that could be in his position. People that are better at everything he does.

And so we should hate him for not reconizing his limited ability and stepping aside.

 

I repeat I've seen posts filled with VENOMOUS HATE directed at Orton.

 

I'm no a fan of his, but I don't HATE the guy, hell he's YOUNGER than me.

 

You want to really blame people, blame the bookers for pushing him too much.

 

I've never blamed a wrestler (not even HHH) for taking every chance their given. Considering what this business does to those who don't make it (and even some who do) I say- take what you can get.

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Guest Kid Kablam
My problem is that whenver there is an interview with JR he automatically says that Randy Orton is the future of the business, when even with his push he's not half as over or talented as Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Hass

Haas and Benjamin are walking around with "The Greatest Tag Team Period" as their official team name and you're telling me that's not a verbal blowjob push just the same as Orton's? (and that's by no means a knock on them, Haas and Benjamin are two of my favorites)

 

I also love how certain people *cough Anglesault cough* will make claims that Orton is not over to justify their viewpoint. Granted, he doesn't get Austin/Rock level heat and probably never will- but who really does outside of Austin and Rock? He's still plenty over enough to play the lackey in a heel stable. Its fine if you don't like him, no one said you have to. But don't try to distort reality to back up your positions.

 

EDIT: or did they change the ex Team Angle to "The World's Greatest Tag Team" now? I haven't caught a full episode of Smackdown for a while now... Either way my point still stands.

That's really just a heel gimmick. They claim they're the best, just as any heel would. I'm talking about the interviews. Whevener any (Non WWE) interviewer asks who the next superstars are, Jr borderline moans Randy Orton's name. He'll give a few cursory mentions of the good ones, but the fact is that WWE has a hard on for this kid, and they will continue to push him despite any negative reaction. Now why should they spend so much time on this kid when they have the future right in front of them with a minimum of work.

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Guest Korgath

The problem I see is that WWE didn't learn from Brock Lesnar's "Next Big Thing" gimmick. The uber-push which resulted in him being the last holder of the short-lived Undisputed Title.

 

If I recall correctly, Brock had a lot of heat from the IWC as a result, because just about EVERYONE was pushing him as the "NEXT BIG THING, BROCK LESNAR".

 

However, Brock's in a respectable position right now with the IWC. Why?

 

1. Heyman's seal of approval. You really can't go wrong there. Heyman could call you a "gigantic piece of lard" and you'd still get over.

2. Good feuds with Rock and Angle. These people could get ALMOST anyone over. They're willing to job and they do it well.

3. More than decent in-ring skills. Not the best. Not quite the greenest, but still VERY new. Pretty slow learning curve. BUT, the fact remains that he's got the moves to stay over with the fans and the IWC.

 

Now let's look at Orton's uber-push.

 

1) Seal of approval? Not even Flair's endorsement can get this guy over. Not that Flair's got ANY mic time to get Orton over.

2) Feuds with talented MEs willing to job? On RAW? Yeah right.

3) In-ring skills? No better than the next jobber.

 

And that is why Orton's uber-push is failing.

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Guest Mulatto Heat
Why does everyone hate Randy Orton? His name isn't Benoit and he's getting a push, the same reason everyone else who gets hated on does.

So you think that Orton is a charismatic young man who backs it up by putting on good matches in the ring?

 

Okay then...

 

The whole 'You only like guys named Benoit' argument is tired and played out. Hell- my current favourite wrestlers are Goldust and Regal

I think you were better off ignoring such an asinine comment, Barron.

 

Could someone direct me to some REAL 'Orton HATE HATE HATE'? I'm curious to see what Dmann is talking about but don't want to dig around for myself since Orton's not someone I find fun to mock.

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Guest Choken One
Why does everyone hate Randy Orton? His name isn't Benoit and he's getting a push, the same reason everyone else who gets hated on does.

So you think that Orton is a charismatic young man who backs it up by putting on good matches in the ring?

 

Okay then...

 

The whole 'You only like guys named Benoit' argument is tired and played out. Hell- my current favourite wrestlers are Goldust and Regal

I think you were better off ignoring such an asinine comment, Barron.

 

Could someone direct me to some REAL 'Orton HATE HATE HATE'? I'm curious to see what Dmann is talking about but don't want to dig around for myself since Orton's not someone I find fun to mock.

Ask for AngleSault.

 

He'll spit up some legit Orton hate for you.

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Why do I hate Orton?

I am bored to tears when he wrestles....period. He does nothing good in the ring. I watch his matches and I just want to change the channel.

And about his uber-push. What the hell is with it anyways? I mean the guy is being pushed to the moon and still has NO reaction. Meanwhile the aformentioned Hurricane gets popped for just showing up and he's wallowing around with this fatass Rosey. And if you think Hurricane will be the one to benefit from this angle think again. Rosey will turn on Hurricane and Hurricane will job.

And you say "Well Hurricane is getting pops for being a comic book character.....nobody wants to see him in the main event." Well Orton isn't getting any kind of heat PERIOD. So why the hell would you push him to the main? Your logic is flawed. At least Hurricane is over so he has a better shot and making it than the heatless wonder does! Jeez....I love some of these people's arguments..."Well the majority of these people hate Orton. So I'll be cool and come up with completely stupid reasons that make no sense as to why Orton should be pushed. Now my logic may defy any kind of conventional common sense but at least I'll be cool."

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Guest MissMattitude

No mic skills

No charisma

Move set sucks

Is still green

Injury prone

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I honestly dont mind Orton, and realize that it could be worse.

 

I thought of a funny idea where Test would be the 4th Evolution member. Its only funny because Test has been around for 4 years and aside from a hair cut and costume change he's seemingly not evolved (changed) at all since he started.

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Orton is missing the following things to get push:

-Overness

-wrestling skills

-charisma(trying to be Rocky lite is not considered charisma)

-world champion looks, being tall and having gay abs doesn't make him look like a real threat, he needs to bulk up more.

-boring promo skills

-hasn't done anything to impress me yet

-injury prone

Edited by humongous2002

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Well how else do you expect new guys to get heat, you have to push people sometimes. How else would you get him over if you were booking? And don't tell me "I would just fire him because he sux LOLZ" either.

 

New guys can get good heat by putting on entertaining matches and cutting good promos without the assistance of half the company. Has Orton done that?

 

I've said it a million times, as a promoter you want every wrestler as over as possible, that's your good economics.

 

Yes, you certainly do.

 

RVD and Hurricane are over RIGHT NOW.

 

Orton is not over despite being dropped into the main event scene, supported by two top players, and the commentators constantly kissing his ass. Including JR, who is a face commentator and is not supposed to like the heels.

 

Despite this, he is still not getting a reaction when he comes out.

 

Now, take a fifth of that effort, and use it to push guys like RVD, Hurricane, or Booker. Imagine where they'd be?

 

What's "good economics" about spending all this time trying and failing to get someone who is totally new to be the next superstar, when all the evidence shows that there are three people who are just waiting to break out?

 

Now why push Orton over Hurricane you ask? Because Hurricane gets pops just for showing up. Orton needs to get actively pushed to get a reaction, if that means he sucks compared to Hurricane fine, call it what you want to call it. I'd also like to add that maybe the reason Hurricane gets the pops he does is because he runs around dressed like a comic book character? Just possibly maybe? He's certainly not a guy most people want to see in the main event, so why the outcry for his elevation?

 

I wouldn't mind seeing him in the main event. Look at it this way. They put him in match where he beat the Rock. And then they had HHH rough him up and instantly push him back down the card. Despite Hurricane and getting good reactions.

 

Orton has been hanging round at the top of the card for much longer, and still they refuse to give up on him.

 

Why did they give up on Hurricane immediately, but continue to work with Orton? And as for where "the outcry" for Hurricane's elevation is, where is the outcry for Orton's elevation? From the marks? Nope. Only the front office wants to see him pushed.

 

Now RVD is a different animal. He's one of if not the most popular guy on Raw, and yes they've dropped the ball on him big time. And that has what to do with Orton? Exactly- nothing. I'd love to see RVD used better but until the day comes I don't see the point of Orton being badly used too just so RVD fans are vindicated someone else went down with him.

 

We don't want Orton badly used. That's the issue. He's being badly used right now, because he is in a spot he can't manage and is not ready for. A lot of people on this board liked the RNN gimmick. I thought they were mildly entertaining and about right for Orton as a midcard heel. The Evolution gimmick is not suited for him at all at his current development.

 

And one final thought: people say Orton's ring game sucks, and they might be right. But last I checked RVD is not that "good" a wrestler either- and this is coming from a long time fan of his. Like I said, if you like RVD and hate Orton, that's completely fine. But just come out and say as much instead of grasping at straws or contradicting yourself to back up your stance.

 

Yes, RVD is no Benoit. But his offense is different and entertaining. If I went down to OVW, how long would it take for me to find someone who could match Orton move for move or better? Two minutes?

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Guest Adrian 3:16
Orton is not over despite being dropped into the main event scene, supported by two top players, and the commentators constantly kissing his ass.  Including JR, who is a face commentator and is not supposed to like the heels. 

 

Again, I would hardly say he's not over. And as for JR kissing his ass, you can't blame Orton for JR going insane and becoming a completely inept commentator. If the announcer played their parts accordingly things would go much more according to plan.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing him in the main event. Look at it this way. They put him in match where he beat the Rock. And then they had HHH rough him up and instantly push him back down the card. Despite Hurricane and getting good reactions.

 

The vast majority of people would neither want Hurricane in the main event, or take him seriously if he was. Hurricane is admittedly in a bad spot; he's over now because of his ridiculous character, but take that away and you're left with just another cruiserweight jobber. Either way, not someone I could buy fighting for and winning the World Title.

 

And I don't see the big deal about the Rock match; Rock kicked his ass the whole time until Austin distracted him and Hurricane got him on a rollup. The general consensus that people thought after seeing that was "Hurricane got lucky! Good for him!", not "Hurricane just destroyed The Rock! Look out HHH, you're next!"

 

Orton has been hanging round at the top of the card for much longer, and still they refuse to give up on him.

 

Why did they give up on Hurricane immediately, but continue to work with Orton? And as for where "the outcry" for Hurricane's elevation is, where is the outcry for Orton's elevation? From the marks? Nope. Only the front office wants to see him pushed.

 

Orton isn't at the top of the card, he's just involved in a top angle, being a member of the only stable on Raw. Being a member of a stable does not = main event. HHH was HBK's lackey in late 97 and early 98 and involved in angles against Bret and Austin, and he was far from main eventing then.

 

Orton's role in the Elimination Chamber is going to be as cannon fodder for Goldberg and HBK, and probably HHH too for that matter. In storyline terms he has about as much chance as winning that match as you or I do.

 

The Evolution gimmick is not suited for him at all at his current development.

 

Why not? Character wise he fits in with Flair and HHH perfectly.

 

Yes, RVD is no Benoit. But his offense is different and entertaining. If I went down to OVW, how long would it take for me to find someone who could match Orton move for move or better? Two minutes?

 

You probably would. But the thing is, Orton's the one who's on Raw now, not your hypothetical OVW workers. They could've/should've brought up someone better, but the fact remains they didn't. I'd rather focus on what exactly is there to work with now instead of what they should've done instead, its water under the bridge.

Edited by Adrian 3:16

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Why does everyone hate Randy Orton? His name isn't Benoit and he's getting a push, the same reason everyone else who gets hated on does.

So you think that Orton is a charismatic young man who backs it up by putting on good matches in the ring?

 

Okay then...

 

The whole 'You only like guys named Benoit' argument is tired and played out. Hell- my current favourite wrestlers are Goldust and Regal

I think you were better off ignoring such an asinine comment, Barron.

 

Could someone direct me to some REAL 'Orton HATE HATE HATE'? I'm curious to see what Dmann is talking about but don't want to dig around for myself since Orton's not someone I find fun to mock.

Okay, let me provide some.... I HATE THAT MOTHERFUCKER ORTON!! DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!

 

That better?

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