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Guest JMA

What's so bad about Randy Orton?

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Again, I would hardly say he's not over.  And as for JR kissing his ass, you can't blame Orton for JR going insane and becoming a completely inept commentator.

 

Orton is over? With who? When he comes out, unless Flair or HHH is with him, there is DEAD SILENCE. The only reaction I have ever heard him get was when he chaired Goldberg, but that was in front of a clearly anti-Goldberg crowd. I will grant that he did get booed for the nipples comment, but that is the only time I have seen him get the slightest bit of heat.

 

And I don't see the big deal about the Rock match; Rock kicked his ass the whole time until Austin distracted him and Hurricane got him on a rollup.  The general consensus that people thought after seeing that was "Hurricane got lucky!  Good for him!", not "Hurricane just destroyed The Rock!  Look out HHH, you're next!"

 

Maybe Hurricane couldn't work as main eventer. Maybe RVD, Booker etc would fail at the top spot. Would it kill them to try for more than two seconds at a time? Let's ask ourselves this: if Hurricane had Orton's gimmick with Evolution, and was getting the same crowd reactions, would they still be trying at this point? I doubt it. They'd probably have traded him to TNA for some ring ropes at this point.

 

Orton isn't at the top of the card, he's just involved in a top angle, being a member of the only stable on Raw.  Being a member of a stable does not = main event.  HHH was HBK's lackey in late 97 and early 98 and involved in angles against Bret and Austin, and he was far from main eventing then.

 

Orton is not being pushed as a lackey. He is being push as the equal to top stars in a trinity (past, present, future). And we are reminded frequently that he is the FUTURE OF THE COMPANY . Did anybody ever scream that Virgil or Cowboy Bob Orton was the future of the company?

 

You probably would.  But the thing is, Orton's the one who's on Raw now, not your hypothetical OVW workers.

 

If you're trying to say that Orton can't be blamed for the way he is mismanaged, I agree. If WWE knocked on my door and asked if I would like big money and a top spot, I would not say "No, I suck, give it to RVD."

 

But Orton is the most visible sign of a backwards policy. He is a place to focus that anger. It's like when you're mad at your computer, and you whack your monitor. Strictly speaking the monitor is just showing the results, the brain is your tower.

 

But I will not accept this idea that I should just like what I'm given. Orton is not entertaining. There are other wrestlers on that roster who are. I want to see more of them. As long as they keep giving me Orton instead, I will bitch. It's like them trying to feed you gruel when you can see chocolate cake up on the shelf.

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Guest Adrian 3:16
Orton is not being pushed as a lackey.  He is being push as the equal to top stars in a trinity (past, present, future).  And we are reminded frequently that he is the FUTURE OF THE COMPANY ™.  Did anybody ever scream that Virgil or Cowboy Bob Orton was the future of the company?

"Future of the company" is part of his heel gimmick, just like the "World's Greatest Tag Team" moniker on Smackdown. You'll notice that no one called Orton the future of the company when he debuted last year or even as recently as RNN, it only started with Evolution.

 

And yes, he is very much a lackey just by the nature of the gimmick. The whole idea is that HHH and Flair have taken in some punk kid under their wing and showing him the ropes. The whole "past, present, future" thing is in effect because they (the characters mind you, not the actual wrestlers) see his potential and appreciate his evilness. The "future" part of their trinity won't be percieved as an equal as long as the "present" and even "past" components are still active. Simply put, in kayfabe terms both HHH and Flair are still better than Orton.

 

And I'm tired of this "uber-push" notion like he's steamrolling every opponent in sight. He beat Maven and Tommy Dreamer- who hasn't? You guys make him sound like Goldberg in '98.

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The only reason people hate Randy Orton is because just like the Rock when he first broke in he was a Blue Chipper. Before Orton turned heel on Jim Ross I think Ross may have even referred to him as a Blue Chipper.

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Guest Anglesault
Again, I would hardly say he's not over.  And as for JR kissing his ass, you can't blame Orton for JR going insane and becoming a completely inept commentator.

 

Orton is over? With who? When he comes out, unless Flair or HHH is with him, there is DEAD SILENCE

I'm ready to get my (brand new) TV fixed, because all I hear is silence as well, and apparently he's over enough to warrant a push over 7/8 of Raw.

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Guest The Decadent Slacker

Aside from Orton being a more annoying Billy Gunn, I have no problem with him. That being said, i hate Billy Gunn.

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What's good about him?

 

He's yet to have a match that has made me say "Wow, push HIM!" while having multiple clunkers. He's not at all over, and his mic skills ae laughable.

Exactly. Haas & Benjamin have been around for about half as long as Orton has, and nobody complains about them being in the main event of Smackdown week after week because they have been in some of the best matches of the year. It all comes down to what you produce.

 

WGTT > Cena > Orton

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I also love how certain people *cough Anglesault cough* will make claims that Orton is not over to justify their viewpoint. Granted, he doesn't get Austin/Rock level heat and probably never will- but who really does outside of Austin and Rock?  He's still plenty over enough to play the lackey in a heel stable.  Its fine if you don't like him, no one said you have to.  But don't try to distort reality to back up your positions.

Oh come on now. There are lots of wrestlers who get a decent reaction on Raw, and could be elevated if WWE would work on them for more than .0004 seconds at a time. Hurricane comes to mind. Even tonight RVD got some chants when he came out, despite playing second fiddle to Shane McMahon.

 

These guys do not have Lawler and Orton going on about how great they are. They were not teamed up with Flair and HHH in the hopes that some heat would rub off on them.

 

And they are still more over than Orton.

 

When the audience cheers these guys, they are asking to see more of them.

 

Instead of doing something to meet that demand, they say "Now how can we get Orton to get reactions like that?" It's just bad economics.

And even in a lot of forums such as this one, you hear a lot of smarks and marks praising RVD. Orton might have some marks rooting for him but there aren't that many. Back in 2001 RVD used to get pops as big as Rocky, something that Orton or even WWE's golden boy Brock haven't accomplished yet.

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Guest Goodear

I have very little qualms about Orton personally. I don't have this huge problem with his work in the ring that the majority of the people here. The guy isn't exciting by any stretch and rolls into the brawling as offense a little too easily. But there have been moments where I've been very impressed by his ability to bump as well as a few of his spots that he needs to use more often (the 3.0 and the hanging DDT).

 

The issue about him being overpushed is only a problem because the WWE should be doing the same sort of thing more often with their new people. Just throwing Orlando Jordon and Mark Jyndrak out there with no character is a death sentance and they could completely benefit from having the announcers build them up more.

 

But as far as Orton in Evolution is concerned, he's the best person on the WWE roster for that roll as the 'potential'. Everyone else is either too established and would end up looking like a sidekick to HHH (which isn't good for someone like Jericho or RVD) or just doesn't have the personality Orton does to pull it off (which is more damning of Maven than it is praising of Orton).

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Guest TheHulkster

Most of you guys hate him, he gets talked about a lot around here, and the live crowd hasn't completely shit on the idea of him being in the SS main event, so he must be doing something right. He's got probably the best shot of being a top guy because he has all of the attributes needed to be a top guy in the company's eyes. He's a good athlete, he's got a good build, the ladies seem to dig him, and he's young. The guy may not be as good of a wrestler as Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero, but he hasn't been in the business for over 10 years and traveled the globe like Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero. The more he's with guys like Flair and HHH, the more he will learn about all of the important aspects of the business and the more he will continue to grow as an entertainer and a wrestler. I think they pushing him beyond his means slightly, don't get me wrong, but i'm not about to say "Send him back to OVW, he sucks!!!" like some of you. That would be counterproductive. He's already proven himself in OVW and he's on a steady path to proving himself in the big leagues or they wouldn't still be pushing him. I haven't seen an Orton match since his return that was attrocious and his interviews improve every time he's behind the mic. He's not the new Ric Flair yet, but was Ric Flair the new Buddy Rogers, Verne Gagne, or Johnny Valentine when he was 3-4 years in the business?

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Guest Anglesault
Most of you guys hate him, he gets talked about a lot around here, and the live crowd hasn't completely shit on the idea of him being in the SS main event,

They haven't reacted AT ALL.

 

I haven't seen an Orton match since his return that was attrocious

 

Have you seen one good enough to warrant a push?

 

and his interviews improve every time he's behind the mic

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

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What's wrong with Orton's interviews? I think they're very good. He gets his character across perfectly, and usually gets legitimate heat from the crowd. What's more, he gets that heat without using cliche stuff like "Why am I stuck in <town name here>." or "<Local sports team> sucks." Just the inate cockiness present in his promos is enough to get the crowd to dislike him without being bored with him.

 

As for his ring work, it may not be exceptional, but for a 24 yr. old, or even for a Raw wrestler, it's not that bad. If he has a ten minute match with a jobber like Spike Dudley or Maven, people will get bored, but in the right circumstances he can be very good in the ring.

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Guest Anglesault
and usually gets legitimate heat from the crowd.

I'm getting my TV fixed. There is some reaon why it refuses to transmit Orton (and only Orton's) heat through it's speakers. Even my TV is biased.

 

As for his ring work, it may not be exceptional, but for a 24 yr. old, or even for a Raw wrestler, it's not that bad

 

How is he BETTER than a Val Venis or a Maven or a Goldust? I don't want to hear, "on par" because none of those guys are getting pushed, so Orton must SOMEHOW be better.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's wrong with Orton's interviews? I think they're very good. He gets his character across perfectly

 

but in the right circumstances he can be very good in the ring.

 

What are the right circumstances?

The Nipple line an the Hi-Lite Reel snoozefest made my day.

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Guest The Decadent Slacker

Well, i wouldn't say Maven is better than Orton. They're on par, it seems like, & there's the argument: why is Orton better than Maven, since they have the same skill level, & Maven has arguably more charisma?

 

Oh, Orton has heat. He just leeches it off Flair & HHH. By himself, he's going to fail miserably (see Gunn, Billy). He's annoying, can barely work as well as Nash walks, & can't draw heat to save his life. The one time he did get some facsimile of heat was when Foley made him look good.

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I haven't seen him wrestle enough to know how good he is, but he is fitting into Evolution perfectly as his persona fits the stable perfectly. I find nothing wrong with him.

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Guest BionicRedneck
What are the right circumstances?

They invent a time machine and go and get Ric Flair from 1983-89 time period, grab Bret Hart from 94-97 and somehow miracle cure Steve Austin's broken neck/knee/back etc.

 

Flair and Orton vs. Austin and Bret

 

They do all the work, then Orton jobs. That would be a "very good" Orton match.

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Guest Askewniverse
Actually, in Vancouver, he did get some heat.

What was Vancouver?

Raw, two weeks ago. Orton got some cheers after blasting Goldberg with a chair.

 

To be fair though, who wouldn't get cheered in Canada for hitting Goldberg with a chair?

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To be fair though, who wouldn't get cheered in Canada for hitting Goldberg with a chair?

Vince McMahon

Or Earl Hebner.

Or Former PM Brian Mulroney.

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Orton dosen't deserve a push. Why? He fails in every area. Let me note that while being a good wrestler has never, ever mattered when it comes to being a main eventer in the WWE.. (Hogan sucked, Austin half-assed it 90% of the time, Rock tries, but isn't "great", and HHH..we all know what happened there.) ..it's to the benefit of the person being pushed if they CAN hold their own in the ring. He's not particularly charismatic, either. (Tajiri is more charismatic than Orton, and he speaks Japanese. That's just one random name out of many.)

 

Orton's getting his push BECAUSE he's a generic, tall white guy. That's the kind of person Vince likes, and the only slightly smaller than Hoss-type Ross drools over. He's got nothing but a few power moves, and a lot of punches. That fits their criteria wonderfully.

 

Taking Lesnar for an example, it's important to point out that he didn't get over as what the WWE was pushing him as..a big "monster" type heel that kills little guys. (You think they'd learn after all nine thousand of those type pushes failed. Name anyone who's gotten over on the basis of that alone.) Lesnar got over out of a combination of the smarkish Summerslam crowd, and tossing around the Big Show like he was nothing. He's the old "face that dosen't back down" type, which seems to work fairly well.

 

Say what you will about Lesnar, but he's at least got a few mannerisms. Orton dosen't even have those.

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It seems that very few of you understand the basics of business. The possibilities that Orton will earn money in the future far outways his supposed lack of overness now. And WWE is doing the right thing here, by not jobbing out a potential superstar. It's much harder to erase the stigma of being a jobber than it is put him over people who are seen as such already. Randy Orton probably wouldn't be the person I would of chose for this myself, but by pushing him they are actually showing signs of thinking of the future.

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It seems that very few of you understand the basics of business. The possibilities that Orton will earn money in the future far outways his supposed lack of overness now. And WWE is doing the right thing here, by not jobbing out a potential superstar. It's much harder to erase the stigma of being a jobber than it is put him over people who are seen as such already. Randy Orton probably wouldn't be the person I would of chose for this myself, but by pushing him they are actually showing signs of thinking of the future.

I'd like to know where these possibilities are, for one.

 

It seems to me that there are three types of "megapush" stars. There's the Rock, who was annoying, but turned out to have an amazing persona that people connected with once he got out of the gimmick he was stuck in at first. There's HHH, who was pushed far beyond what anyone else had been before, and given every oppertunity in the book and more. His days of geniune overness are gone, along with his ring skill..replaced by an oppresive "character" (replace with whatever you wish) who's forced to rely on his relationship with the Boss' daughter, and heavy politicking to keep his spot. Then you have the Billy Gunn-types, who just don't have what it takes, but keep getting pushed anyway.

 

Seems to me Orton will be more of a Triple H..instead of the "next Rock" as they're hoping.

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Its already been said in this thread how there are some comparisions with the Rock. And just like the Rock, hes a good looking well-toned young man that has strong potential. When , not if, he gets over, you will have a great spokesman for public relations, a prettyboy who could be able to get heat similar to HBK back in the day, and if he's given the chance to flesh out the character slightly, a new fresh face in the upper to main event card leading to new matches, getting rid of some of the stagnation. If Randy is even 1/4 as successful as the Rock was, the investment will have had paid off. And though I'm not the biggest fan of Orton himself, I like the fact that their not using the even booking where you win one show to lose at the next one, which kills the ability for anyone to get over, for even the biggest stars,this is true.

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Guest Anglesault
Its already been said in this thread how there are some comparisions with the Rock. And just like the Rock, hes a good looking well-toned young man that has strong potential.

Potential to do what?

 

When he goes out there weekly and fails in every conceivable category (He's not over, he's not good in the ring, he's not charasmatic, he doesn't have good mic skills) how can anyone see potential?

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Its already been said in this thread how there are some comparisions with the Rock.  And just like the Rock, hes a good looking well-toned young man that has strong potential.

Potential to do what?

 

When he goes out there weekly and fails in every conceivable category (He's not over, he's not good in the ring, he's not charasmatic, he doesn't have good mic skills) how can anyone see potential?

Because he's the son of "Cowboy" Bob Orton.

 

They think that he has latent talent in him given to him by his father.

 

That's just my theory.

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Its already been said in this thread how there are some comparisions with the Rock.  And just like the Rock, hes a good looking well-toned young man that has strong potential.

 

Potential to do what?

 

When he goes out there weekly and fails in every conceivable category (He's not over, he's not good in the ring, he's not charasmatic, he doesn't have good mic skills) how can anyone see potential?

 

Because he's the son of "Cowboy" Bob Orton.

 

They think that he has latent talent in him given to him by his father.

 

That's just my theory.

 

 

...Backed up by such ring generals as Erik Watts, Brian Christopher and the living legend, David Flair.

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