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EVIL~! alkeiper

The ONE and ONLY World Series Thread

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The Yankees have won four out of the last seven World Series. Every year that the Yankees have not made it to the World Series, the National League has won the championship.

Uh, I think Anaheim might have something to say about that...

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Right. Because it's not like the Yankees haven't been seen in the World Series year after year after year after year.

 

 

But it's not because the Yankees are some kind of mystical baseball think-tank. It's not because the Yankees are a dynasty. It's because baseball is broken and, due to old men who harp about nothing but tradition, the Yankees can abuse the system to all its fullest.

 

Nobody's ever going to consistently compete with them. Nobody's going to be able to match revenue with a team centered in the capital of the free world. Hell, no one else was smart enough to keep the Yankees from creating their own proprietary medium (the YES network) to create an even larger divide in terms of capital.

 

Thanks to the collective stupidity of the owners and baseball management, the Yankees have been allowed to eliminate competition by continually hand-picking the best players on the market while keeping their own stars.

 

And you know what you are when you've abused the system to the point where there's virtually no hope for consistent competition?

 

You're not a dynasty. You're a monopoly.

 

There's nothing special about what the Yankee's have accomplished, due to what they've been given. Every team is a small-market team, compared to the Yankee machine. Having $180 million around makes it fairly easy to keep a nucleus of the finest players in the league. And home-grown talent? The Yankees are allowed to spend more money for scouting and recruiting personnel, more money to throw at worthy prospects that come up through their system and, when they make mistakes, enough of a compilation of talent to allow them to abandon mediocre talent freely and without worry.

 

Imagine if Derek Jeter had came up with the Kansas City Royals.

 

The New York Yankees have the money to keep the players that their highly-paid scouts and analysts rate as top performers while going after top free agents that other teams could never realistically afford to pay, acquiring them at a cheaper rate just because they offer the best chance to win a ring.

 

For all of the Yankees fans who have a hard time understanding why your team is universally despised, that's the reason right there. Too many fans have seen their local heroes like Paul O'Neill, Robin Ventura, David Wells, Roger Clemens, and Mike Mussina leave for the pinstripes, only to turn around and beat the brains out of their old team on their way to another World Series. When those other teams won, people celebrated not only because they may have been their local team, but because they grasp onto momentary hope that perhaps "the evil empire" has made a mistake and baseball will be a great sport with true competition once again.

 

It's not your fault for being fans of a successful team, nor is it the Yankees' fault for preying upon the collective ineptitude of the entire league. It isn't even the fault of the players, who are merely looking out for their own interests like anybody else would in the marketplace.

 

The fault lies upon baseball, and its group of ignorant owners who have much more pressing matters to attend to than regulating the quality of the game. When baseball went on strike, the league had the opportunity to adapt to the changes that had been occuring through the marketplace in all sports (or even all businesses in general). They had a chance to mend their wounds but, instead, they merely caved into the whims of the players and old men who don't want to accept the notion that their national pasttime needs to evolve with the times.

 

And now, as New York takes a 2-1 series lead against a team that has one-third of its payroll, baseball management secretly frets about television revenues and desperately grabs onto any minimal sign of recovery (oooooh, ratings are up 16% from last year, which happened to be the worst rated World Series of all time) while having absolutely no idea that they are the ones who are responsible for their own downfall.

 

Because, even if the Florida Marlins win this World Series, the business-savvy Yankees will be back next year. And the year after that. And the year after that.

 

Take it to the bank.

So what if they had. Their core group knows what it takes to get the job done on the field.

 

The Yankees are a Dynasty. They've had a core group in Jeter, Soriano, Petitte, Rivera, Posada, Williams, and know Soriano (who only played minor league ball in Japan). These Yankee teams are no different than the teams of the 40's and 50's. They had homegrown talent, and brought in outside talent. Are they any less of a dynasty?

 

 

How the hell are they abusing anything. They pay a price for going over the luxury tax, but that doesn't matter to Steinbrenner at this point.

 

Remember when the Yankees sucked? Hell for 14 seasons they didn't make the postseason. They where still spending money.

 

So the f what. Having the ability (which the Yankees do) does not automatically give you championships. They have to go out on the field and earn it.

 

The Yankees never won anything with Robin Ventura, and haven't won anything yet Mike Mussina. Paul O'Neill is a horrible example. I remember the trade for Roberto Kelly, and Kelly was considered the better of the two.

 

Considering the Yankees have won 26 World Series championships and appeard in 39 more since 1920. When has baseball ever been a competive balanced game for more than a short period?

 

Last years World Series was the worse of all time? Funny, the Yankees weren't involved. It was the upstart Angels vs Giants and Barry Bonds first World Series appearance.

 

You know every season. I go into the season, not liking the Yankees. They aren't the same team has the 98-00 team. But once the postseason starts, and people bitch and complain about the Yankees. I suddently start rooting for them again. There's other reasons, like Joe Torre, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams. I can't help but want to see guys like that win. They are all big time players. They get the job done when it matters most. Besides, I love dynasties in sports. It's more of a certainty the best team will win in the end.

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So what if they had. Their core group knows what it takes to get the job done on the field.

 

The Yankees are a Dynasty. They've had a core group in Jeter, Soriano, Petitte, Rivera, Posada, Williams, and know Soriano (who only played minor league ball in Japan).

And, without the deep pockets, there's no way they could have kept this core group together. Let's just take a look at the 2002 salaries of this "core group" (credit: Baseball Reference.com):

 

Derek Jeter $ 14,600,000

Bernie Williams $ 12,357,143

Andy Pettitte $ 9,500,000

Mariano Rivera $ 9,450,000

Jorge Posada $ 7,000,000

Alfonso Soriano $ 630,000

 

Add 'em all together and you get approximately $53 million, which is higher than the entire payrolls of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, Montreal Expos, Milwaukee Brewers, and Kansas City Royals. (credit: ESPN.com)We're not even counting some of the bigger free agents of last year:

 

Raul Mondesi $ 11,000,000

Mike Mussina $ 11,000,000

Jason Giambi $ 10,428,571

Roger Clemens $ 10,300,000

Robin Ventura $ 8,500,000

 

These Yankee teams are no different than the teams of the 40's and 50's. They had homegrown talent, and brought in outside talent.

 

There isn't much financial data available on baseball teams from that time period, but one thing to consider is that the 40's and 50's era teams had their success before free agency reared its ugly head in the 70's. The Yankees had amassed a great nucleus of homegrown talent and there wasn't much danger of Berra or Dimaggio leaving to play for Boston or some other team, since players rarely moved between teams back then.

 

In the current economic climate, many smaller market teams either lose their most pretigious free agents to other teams with considerably higher payroll, or have no financial footing to make a worthwhile offer to other free agents in the market. Case in point: Jason Giambi.

 

How the hell are they abusing anything. They pay a price for going over the luxury tax, but that doesn't matter to Steinbrenner at this point.

 

You just answered your own question, but just for additional evidence, let's just take a look at that luxury tax (found on the same ESPN site I quoted earlier).

 

For having a payroll of $180 million, the New York Yankees were taxed $10.7 million, which is only 15% of the difference between the Yankees and their nearest competitors (which, coincidentally, happen to be the New York Mets). For a team that made $215 million in total revenue (which happens to be about $60 million over the second place Mariners), there's still a huge amount of profit to be had after said luxury tax.

 

How is a luxury tax supposed to stop a team that has profit margins that rivals the payroll of some small market teams?

 

Remember when the Yankees sucked? Hell for 14 seasons they didn't make the postseason. They where still spending money.

 

Firstly, the amount of money that they spent was much more comparable to the other teams back in the day, a huge departure from the $50 million+ difference between the 2nd Place Mets and the Yankees.

 

Secondly, free agency still hadn't evolved into the yearly migration ritual that baseball players would undertake each year in the 90s.

 

Thirdly, the idea that the Yankees "sucked" in the 80's is actually somewhat of a misconception. From 1982-1988, the Yankees averaged about 88 wins a season, which is certainly competitive. You can, however, make a case for the period from '89-'92, where the Yankees were having terrible luck trying to replace former Yankee standouts like Rickey Henderson and Dave Winfield. (Danny Tartabull, anyone?)

 

So the f what. Having the ability (which the Yankees do) does not automatically give you championships. They have to go out on the field and earn it.

 

The Yankees never won anything with Robin Ventura, and haven't won anything yet Mike Mussina.

 

They've both made the playoffs and Mussina was part of a team that lost a ridiculous 2001 World Series to the Arizona Diamondbacks in seven games. To say that these guys have had no success with the Yankees is a little bit of a misnomer.

 

Plus, take a close look at the statement in my post - no one can consistently compete with the Yankees in the current economic climate and, thus, the overall competitive balance of the game is distorted.

 

Paul O'Neill is a horrible example. I remember the trade for Roberto Kelly, and Kelly was considered the better of the two.

 

Er, considering that O'Neill averaged about 20 HRs and 85 RBIs a year through his Yankee tenure (as well as the emotional leader of the team), it certainly didn't work out that way. Cincinnati got cornholed on that deal and, looking back, this bargain might have been the catalyst that turned things around for the Yankees.

 

Considering the Yankees have won 26 World Series championships and appeard in 39 more since 1920. When has baseball ever been a competive balanced game for more than a short period?

 

In ye olden days of baseball, a dynasty came from brilliant talent emerging from the minors as well as keen trades bringing in outside talent. If you got a huge talent from a team in those days, it typically wasn't because the team couldn't afford that player - it was because you either gave up a huge talent in return, or you got a steal of a deal. Dynasties were far more "legitimate."

 

However, I'm not debating the successes of the past. I'm here to examine the present and, since the advent of free agency, there's actually been considerably more parity in the league...until the 90's, where the salaries skyrocketed out of control and the Yankees, with the highest amount of revenue, were able to take advantage.

 

There were eleven different World Champions in a fourteen year period from 1980 to 1993. However, since the strike and the emergence of outrageous salaries, the Yankees have appeared in six of the last eight World Series, losing only one to Arizona and never failing to make the playoffs.

 

Also, consider the teams that won the World Series in those periods. Both the '97 Marlins and the '01 Diamondbacks were huge payroll behemoths. Only the Anaheim Angels, who just got hot at the right time, weren't in the top ten in payroll. (though they're not far away - 13th in the league this year).

 

This disparity should be considered an indictment of the current economic system and the New York Yankees have been the biggest beneficiaries of this, due to their imcomparably large amount of revenue.

 

Last years World Series was the worse of all time? Funny, the Yankees weren't involved. It was the upstart Angels vs Giants and Barry Bonds first World Series appearance.

 

Part of that can be attributed to the fact that Barry Bonds is not really a marketable superstar, true. But the other part of it is that teams that aren't big money teams have a hard time establishing a fanbase outside of their local area, and that's due to the fact that these big spending teams permeate the baseball market at every given turn.

 

Nobody knew who the Anaheim Angels were until the press started circulating stuff about the Rally Monkey. And neither team had been to their respective league championship series in the last ten years.

 

You know every season. I go into the season, not liking the Yankees. They aren't the same team has the 98-00 team. But once the postseason starts, and people bitch and complain about the Yankees. I suddently start rooting for them again. There's other reasons, like Joe Torre, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams. I can't help but want to see guys like that win. They are all big time players. They get the job done when it matters most. Besides, I love dynasties in sports. It's more of a certainty the best team will win in the end.

 

I'm not debating whether the Yankees are the best team or not. Actually, I'm going to great lengths to reaffirm that claim. I'm just questioning how it can truly be considered a dynasty, when most of the credit goes to a little bit of business savvy and general collective stupidity.

 

Take, for example, Billy Beane and the Oakland A's. Here's a team that is always consistently competitive with a low payroll that continually loses in the playoffs and ends up watching its players walk away to greener pastures. If the Oakland A's weren't in the bottom third in payroll and revenue, how would this team do? How would any team of that stature do?

 

We'll never know, because the divide is probably only going to get wider unless the current economic situation is changed.

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Guest Ghettoman

So sad....

 

The second the Yankee's look to take control of the series the discussion turns to why there the evil empire of all sports.

 

There NY's team, NY is the capital of the world, it's money central, if there gonna have one main baseball team, it's going to be a well run financial giant.

 

The hatred comes purely out of jealousy, if they didn't win there would never be any talk about how there ruining baseball.

 

Baseball like any sport needs division between the best and the worst. There needs to be that clear cut super team for long periods of time, it makes for better story. If all teams were competitive 95-67 teams baseball would blow.

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Guest cpac

HMMMMMMMM, The Last time I checked, every owner in baseball is a billionaire. I am not going to feel sorry for the fans of the twins or royals. People like Carl Pohlad and David Glass have tons more money than Steinbrenner. Steinbrenner made millions in his shipping company but he made billions in his baseball team. People like Pohlad have made billions in other companies and only millions in baseball.

 

The Yankees always had one of highest payrolls in baseball. I believe back in 96 their payroll was around 70-80 million. One of the highest in the league with I beleive baltimore. Do you want to know why the yankees payroll shot up so much??? Because they were great. They could afford to have the payroll go up. The yankees had a bunch of young players playing great baseball. So each of the players got huge contract extensions. It is not Steinbrenners fault that people like Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, Williams and Posada went from being up and coming players to ALL STARS.

 

Is it Steinbrenners fault that he invests the money he makes from the Yankees into the Yankees? Why is that so bad. BAH GOD WHAT A DEVIL HE IS, SOMEONE BURN HIM AT THE STAKE. God fucking forbid an owner of a team tries to put out the best team possible. What an ASSHOLE. He is ruining baseball. If the owner of your favorite team did the same thing you wouldn't complain one bit. Everyfan wants an owner like Steinbrenner owning their team. He cares about winning and only winning.

 

Why should the yankees be punished for having a huge fan base? The reason why the yankees make so much money is because they have the biggest fan base in baseball. Should we tell these people to just stop watching baseball and spending money on baseball because the Yankees making money is so unfair compared to teams like the Devil Rays?

 

Is it the yankees fault that some teams do jack shit in the off season and that teams like the Devil Rays biggest free agent signings are Juan Guzman, Vinny Castilla, Fred McGriff, Wade Boggs, Roberto Hernandez and Jose Canseco? How about Minnesota, their biggest free agent signings have been over the hill players like Winfield, Steinbach and Politor. This was like 8-10 years ago. How about the mets? They have a high payroll and play in a big market. Ooo thats right they lost 95-98 games this year.

 

Maybe you should stop blaming and pointing fingers at the yankees for baseballs faults. The yankees have set a blueprint for every other fucking team in baseball for the formula for success. Maybe the real problem in baseball are the owners who care more about making one dollar than winning one world series. Maybe if some of these owners invest some of their own money into their team maybe they can put out a playoff caliber team..

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Guest FrigidSoul
So sad....

 

The second the Yankee's look to take control of the series the discussion turns to why there the evil empire of all sports.

 

There NY's team, NY is the capital of the world, it's money central, if there gonna have one main baseball team, it's going to be a well run financial giant.

 

The hatred comes purely out of jealousy, if they didn't win there would never be any talk about how there ruining baseball.

 

Baseball like any sport needs division between the best and the worst. There needs to be that clear cut super team for long periods of time, it makes for better story. If all teams were competitive 95-67 teams baseball would blow.

Funny but in every other sport where there is a form of a salary cap and making it so the "Center of the Financial World" can't spend, spend, spend NY teams don't do so well. In fact its pretty well balanced in all other sports (not counting the East/West in basketball as it always appears as though the East dominates for a decade then the West then the East, etc)

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And, without the deep pockets, there's no way they could have kept this core group together.  Let's just take a look at the 2002 salaries of this "core group" (credit: Baseball Reference.com):

 

Derek Jeter $ 14,600,000

Bernie Williams $ 12,357,143

Andy Pettitte $ 9,500,000

Mariano Rivera $ 9,450,000

Jorge Posada $ 7,000,000

Alfonso Soriano $ 630,000

 

Add 'em all together and you get approximately $53 million, which is higher than the entire payrolls of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, Montreal Expos, Milwaukee Brewers, and Kansas City Royals.

 

And those six men alone make 2 million less than their entire World Series opponent.

 

Awesome.

 

As for all this talk, the series is NOT over. Sure, it looks bad who is to say that the Marlins don't go back to the Bronx up 3-2? No one. I'll get the white flag out of the box if they lose tonight and I won't raise it until Rivera is on the hill in the 9th inning with the Marlins facing elmination, and even then it will still only be raised to half mast.

 

Fuck the bandwagon. I'm a die-hard.

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HMMMMMMMM, The Last time I checked, every owner in baseball is a billionaire. I am not going to feel sorry for the fans of the twins or royals. People like Carl Pohlad and David Glass have tons more money than Steinbrenner. Steinbrenner made millions in his shipping company but he made billions in his baseball team. People like Pohlad have made billions in other companies and only millions in baseball.

Glass and Pohlad may be making billions outside of baseball, but they're certainly not even close to Steinbrenner in terms of Baseball. Even if they spent a good majority of their baseball profits on baseball, they still couldn't outbid the Yankees in a war for any meaningful free agents.

 

Do you want to know why the yankees payroll shot up so much???  Because they were great.  They could afford to have the payroll go up.  The yankees had a bunch of young players playing great baseball.  So each of the players got huge contract extensions.

 

Uh, yeah. And, like I said, if that same core nucleus of young talent would have emerged anywhere else, that team would have had to sacrifice at least one player and they certainly wouldn't have had money to go out and grab the best free agents on the market.

 

Is it Steinbrenners fault that he invests the money he makes from the Yankees into the Yankees?  Why is that so bad.  BAH GOD WHAT A DEVIL HE IS, SOMEONE BURN HIM AT THE STAKE.  God fucking forbid an owner of a team tries to put out the best team possible.  What an ASSHOLE.  He is ruining baseball.  If the owner of your favorite team did the same thing you wouldn't complain one bit.  Everyfan wants an owner like Steinbrenner owning their team.  He cares about winning and only winning. 

 

And, if you would take a second to read the original post, you'd find out that *gasp* I'm not vilifying Steinbrenner for doing what any person would do. I'm pointing a finger at baseball for allowing it to happen.

 

Why should the yankees be punished for having a huge fan base?  The reason why the yankees make so much money is because they have the biggest fan base in baseball.  Should we tell these people to just stop watching baseball and spending money on baseball because the Yankees making money is so unfair compared to teams like the Devil Rays?

 

The Yankees have so much money because they're in New York. If you need additional proof, take a look at the Mets, who are in second place despite being ran by a team of chimpanzees for the last couple of years.

 

Is it the yankees fault that some teams do jack shit in the off season and that teams like the Devil Rays biggest free agent signings are Juan Guzman, Vinny Castilla, Fred McGriff, Wade Boggs, Roberto Hernandez and Jose Canseco?

 

When baseball doesn't have a system that prevents the Yankees are signing up all of the prestigious free agents like Clemens, Mussina, and Giambi, then it's baseball's fault. Once again, even if all of the owners decided to spend all of their baseball profits, they certainly couldn't outbid the $215 million Yankees for the important free agents.

 

How about the mets?  They have a high payroll and play in a big market.  Ooo thats right they lost 95-98 games this year.

 

Good counterpoint - the Mets are trying to be competitive. The issue is that almost all of the important free agents are going to the Yankees and, thus, the Mets are spending money locking down second-tier guys that aren't nearly worth half the salary they're paid. But the Mets paid it because they had the money (from being in New York) and they wanted to do the best to compete, but they couldn't because there were no guys left that were really that desirable. That is a result of the system being abused by the Yankees, and that's entirely the fault of baseball for refusing to regulate it.

 

Maybe you should stop blaming and pointing fingers at the yankees for baseballs faults.  The yankees have set a blueprint for every other fucking team in baseball for the formula for success.  Maybe the real problem in baseball are the owners who care more about making one dollar than winning one world series.  Maybe if some of these owners invest some of their own money into their team maybe they can put out a playoff caliber team..

 

Maybe you should read my post again. Try looking for the words "collective stupidity" and "it's not the Yankees' fault"; they're in there, I promise.

 

All I'm saying is that baseball should try to keep a competitive balance for all of its teams and, while it is punishing the business savvy and rewarding the stupid, it's also guaranteeing to reward the fans with more competitive baseball.

 

I apologize for railroading the discussion away from the series, but I saw that post earlier in the thread and I reacted.

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The Mets were awful this season because of all the players they lost to injury and what not. You look at their opening day roster and you've got a team that looks pretty competitive. By the end of the regular season, you pretty much had minor league guys and second-string players substituting for the opening day starters, who had either been lost with injury or traded away once hopes for the postseason were dashed.

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A dynasty is a dynasty. No matter how who go about achieving it. The Yankees have done a little of everything. They've developed players in their own system. Signed free agents. Made trades, some for top talent like Clemens, others for marginial talent like Brosius.

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Guest Anglesault
As for all this talk, the series is NOT over

Absolutely not. Of course, the Marlins have failed to show that they are "THAT MUCH BETTER" than the Yankees like you boasted after a 3-2 (!) win.

 

Sure, it looks bad who is to say that the Marlins don't go back to the Bronx up 3-2?

 

That might not be so preferable either.

 

Strange things happen in the Bronx in October. The ghosts come out.

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Guest Anglesault
It's good to know that everyone was telling the truth when they said they weren't going to watch the world series.

Bitter sons of bitches.

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I still think the Yankees are going to struggle after this year. Bernie Williams is losing defensive range in center. Clemens is gone after this year. They've got loads of contracts lined up for the next five seasons. And if they struggle, the revenue starts to decrease. And if they don't make enough money, with their payroll, they're fucked. So the Yankees are not a sure thing, especially to the point where the rest of the league isn't competitve. Hell, Boston lost by ONE RUN in game 7. The two years before that the Yankees didn't win, and the year before that they drew the weakest playoff team in the NL.

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Guest Anglesault
Wow. Matsui was out there. The Yankees are getting ALL the calls and not even Anglesault can argue that.

Of course, we're watching it on super duper slow-mo and he was less than one half a step away...

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And remember, the runner gets the benefit of the call.

 

As for people not watching the series, can you really blame them? It may seem bitter of them, but if you'll recall, juding by any baseball talk in this folder over the past two months, I could count the number of Marlins and Yankees fans on one hand. I'm watching it sporadically, but I've yet to be glued to my TV like I was for the rest of the postseason.

 

The only thing I've really taken note on here so far tonight is that Clemens has looked quite bad his last two starts. He had a chance to redeem himself after his last start (which seemed for a while that it really would be his last start), but he came out looking worse than before. At least he's settled down since then.

 

Oh yeah, Jeter surprised the hell out of me by just standing there on a hit that I think even the laziest player would try to run out. I know it's an isolated incident, but seeing a guy who's being paid millions to do something he loves and not even be able to show some hustle on the most rudimentary plays gets on my nerves.

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Pavano has been spectacular today. He has set down 8 in a row and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he pitches the 8th. Just brilliant.

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