Guest Red Hot Thumbtack In The Eye Report post Posted April 16, 2002 Kinetic Posted on April 16 2002,09:03 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote (Anorak @ April 16 2002,08:45) Statement: Soungarden were the best band of the grunge era Rebuttal: While Superunknown is a good album, it was the only one they released during the "grunge era." I'd say you're right on this point had Nirvana and Pearl Jam never formed. Those were the three bands with any authenticity that managed to REALLY cash in on that movement. And of those three, Soundgarden was the worst one. So, no. Re-Rebuttal--considering soundgarden released what, 3 albums in the late 80's early 90's id that you are wrong about superunknown. Statement: Kinetic is one elitist motherfucka about music...in a good way Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kinetic Report post Posted April 16, 2002 Re-Re-Rebuttal: Badmotorfinger was released in 1991, Superunknown was released in 1994. Those two are the only I'd consider to have been released during the grunge phenomenon. The thing with it is that Nirvana, the band that popularized that style of music, didn't really sound like the rest of the bands that cashed in on it. Soundgarden and Alice in Chains, in particular, were a lot sludgier and harder, whereas Pearl Jam sounded like classic rock. With a really strict definition of grunge in which Nirvana is disqualified for not sounding like they're playing under fifteen pounds of mud, I'd say you have a case here. Someone else rebutt the statement about me being an elitist. I don't want to come off as egotistical. If that's possible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JohnSkins Report post Posted April 17, 2002 REBUTTAL: Kinetic isn't an elitist, he just likes good music and wants to share his opinions with others. STATEMENT: Ozzy should've retired from the road years ago instead of making a mockery of the GOD he is. I mean have you seen him live in the past 5-7 years, I have numerous times and the only time I didn't go away saddened was when I saw the Sabbath reuinon tour. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest redbaron51 Report post Posted April 17, 2002 STATEMENT: Ozzy should've retired from the road years ago instead of making a mockery of the GOD he is. I mean have you seen him live in the past 5-7 years, I have numerous times and the only time I didn't go away saddened was when I saw the Sabbath reuinon tour. A Mockery?! You are considering Ozzmosis and Down to Earth bad albums, and saying he sucks live. Maybe i've never seen him during the 80's (i was in diapers and learning my ABC's) but in the last two years I have seen Ozzy three times (one was a sabbath reunion tour, kick ass). I think Ozzy's biggest disappointment where the albums that had Jake E Lee as a guitarist, and his claim to fame in the 80's were bitting bats heads off. I never liked what he did in the eighties after Rhoades died, until Zakk played for Ozzy. I still bought every album that Ozzy released. Sure you maybe old, but if you still have the energy to make music, and music that sounds good, then do it. Many people still think Ozzy is still a God (as do I) no matter what he does. Statement: Judas Priest was never really accepted as a rock influence because bands like, AC/DC Van Halen, Ozzy, Iron Maiden simply because of the popularity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted April 17, 2002 Statement: Judas Priest was never really accepted as a rock influence because bands like, AC/DC Van Halen, Ozzy, Iron Maiden simply because of the popularity. Rebuttal: While I have nothing against Judas Priest, they never really stood out much. Although they have some enjoyable songs ("Living After Midnight" is my favorite that comes to mind), the majority of the time they're just sorta there. Arguably, they never made any "all-time classics" like the bands you mentioned as "rock influences" did, and because of that are usually forgotten as just another '80s metal band. There's a lot of enjoyable music out there, I venture to say most of it falls through the cracks. Statement: The Mahavishnu Orchestra with John McLaughlin's The Inner Morning Flame is one of the best, if not the best, rock instrumental albums ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted April 17, 2002 rebuttal: zzzzz....zzzzz.zzz.....zzzzzz.zzz statement: When George Harrison died he did not receive the proper tribute from the mainstream press which he deserved. He was a friggin Beatle for chrissakes!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest redbaron51 Report post Posted April 17, 2002 rebuttal: That is true. Harrison was probably the most talented people, and actually one of the more charasmatic Beatle out of the four. I mean he got a few days of popularity, but after that, he's no where. People will probably forget about him in 10 years or so. Statement: Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here was never popular than Dark Side of the Moon, yet Wish You Were Here was a better album put together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Red Hot Thumbtack In The Eye Report post Posted April 17, 2002 JohnSkins Posted on April 16 2002,18:16 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REBUTTAL: Kinetic isn't an elitist, he just likes good music and wants to share his opinions with others. re rebuttal: its not a bad thing...seemingly has strong musical opinions and expresses them sometimes the same way as a life long metalhead might...but generally with more intelligence...that is his 'elitism'...strong belief in his own rightness... anyway Statement:More people need to be exposed to the musical genius of Anathema Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted April 18, 2002 rebuttal: 'wish you were here' is pretty overrated. having a song in 9 parts (at least 4 parts of which are unnecessary) doesn't constitute a well-put together album. statement: 'pulp fiction' has the single greatest soundtrack of any movie. but if 'lost highway' had included 'song to the siren' by this mortal coil, then that would be the greatest soundtrack of any movie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest razazteca Report post Posted April 18, 2002 The MTV Icon show for Aerosmith was nothing but a long commercial promoting acts that have no business doing tributes/covers of Aerosmith songs. The cover of "Walk this way" by JaRule, Nelly, Sum 41 was total crap. Shakira doing "Dude looks like a lady" was also a qustionable act, the tribute band was ok but the vocals by Shakira was like listening to Crackhead Bob singing Van Halen. RUN DMC took Aerosmith out of the gutter with the remake of "Walk this Way". Before this video the band was just another drug abusing has been, with hits from the 70s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted April 18, 2002 "statement: 'pulp fiction' has the single greatest soundtrack of any movie. but if 'lost highway' had included 'song to the siren' by this mortal coil, then that would be the greatest soundtrack of any movie." rebuttal: Silly rabbit (is that flaming?), everyone knows the greatest soundtrack of all time is Saturday Night Fever. Seriously, while Lost Highway is listenable (and I'm being nice), Pulp Fiction used a diverse array of artists covering a nice range of musical tastes. The way Quentin incorporated the songs into the movie made those songs vivid reminders of the film, so every time you heard that song, a grotesque image was embedded in your mind. Lost highway doesn't even come close. Statement: If Jacob Dylan wasn't Bob Dylan's son, then he would be an even bigger star since he wouldn't constantly be compared to his old man Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kinetic Report post Posted April 18, 2002 Rebuttal: If Jakob Dylan's father wasn't Bob Dylan, he probably wouldn't have a career in the music business. Even if he did, it wouldn't be any more successful than it is because The Wallflowers just aren't that good. But it is true that marginally talented sons of musical icons tend to perform poorly by comparison. Whatever happened to Julian Lennon? Or Sean Lennon, for that matter? Statement: If the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds were released today, no one would care about it. It would get middling reviews, sell about 100,000 copies, and forever fade into obscurity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest muzanisa Report post Posted April 18, 2002 Rebuttal - If Pet Sounds hadn't been released then a lot of bands would have sounded different as it is a highly influential album. Plus Caroline No is a fucking beautiful Song. Statement - While Motley Crue didn't make great music The Dirt makes you want to listen to their songs and appreciate them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted April 20, 2002 Statement - While Motley Crue didn't make great music The Dirt makes you want to listen to their songs and appreciate them. Rebuttal (I think?): Motley Crue is currently no different than any of the other multitudes of poor modern "metal" bands. In their heyday in the '80s, however, they were much different, with songs like "Girls Girls Girls" and "Shout at the Devil" which alternated between having a real meaning and being really stupid songs that were fun to sing along too. It's an acquired taste, to say the least, and when their type of "metal" went out of style, were it not for Tommy Lee's escapades with Pamela Anderson, nobody would have ever heard from them again. The older singles are still worth a listen. Statement: The Kinks are generally looked at as little more than two-hit wonders. Though they may not have been one of the most influential bands of all time, they are certainly one of the more enjoyable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted April 20, 2002 Rebuttal: Freshen up on your Kinks history!!!! Besides "You Really Got Me" and "All Day and All of the Night", they have had a multitude of top 40 singles throughout the 60's, 70's AND 80's. These include "Tired of Waiting for You", "Destroyer", "Come Dancing", "Set Me Free", and "Lola". And the Kinks usually are considered a distant 4th in terms of significance during the British Invasion, behind The Beatles, Stones, and Who. That's some nice company to be around. And their influence can be heard everywhere from Van Halen (who covered 3 songs no less), the 90's wave of British Rock, and even earlier new wave and punk. If the Davies brothers' feud wasn't always at the center of attention, then the music would certainly stand on its own. Statement: When it comes to punk, the Clash are leagues above the Sex Pistols in every aspect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kinetic Report post Posted April 20, 2002 Statement: When it comes to punk, the Clash are leagues above the Sex Pistols in every aspect. Rebuttal: Absolutely. I'd take The Clash's self-titled album before Nevermind the Bollocks... any day of the week. Then again, who knows what the Pistols would have done had they not self-destructed so quickly? They would have needed to get rid of Sid Vicious, who was completely worthless in every way, but Johnny Rotten is and was an intelligent, talented guy. But, as it stands, The Clash should go down as the best punk band ever. Statement: Belle and Sebastian are a fucking great band. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted April 21, 2002 Rebuttal: You're right. They are a great band.... if you suffer from insomnia and need to fall asleep. They're a great band if you are in need of sticking a needle in your arm to escape the pain. They're a great band if you like Muzak with words. Seriously, I've never heard them before but this sounds about right. Statement: Johnny Cash is one of the greatest songwriters ever, on par with Bob Dylan and Elvis Costello Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kinetic Report post Posted April 21, 2002 Rebuttal: You're right. They are a great band.... if you suffer from insomnia and need to fall asleep. They're a great band if you are in need of sticking a needle in your arm to escape the pain. They're a great band if you like Muzak with words. Seriously, I've never heard them before but this sounds about right. Statement: Johnny Cash is one of the greatest songwriters ever, on par with Bob Dylan and Elvis Costello This isn't a rebuttal/statement post, because I'm not familiar enough with Johnny Cash to state an educated opinion. Weird how that works, eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted April 21, 2002 rebuttal: he's probably one of the greatest SINGERS ever, but his songwriting is...well it's serviceable, but not as good as dylan or lennon/mccartney. statement: cee-lo is a genius. solely through the song and video 'closet freak', he has already endeared himself to the hip-hop world with his retro sense of humor and inventiveness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted April 22, 2002 Rebuttal: The song is cute but there is nothing original or genius about him. Cee-lo will go the way of Biz Markie and other hip-hop one hit wonders because their is absolutely nothing real about the music to keep people listening. Statement: Public enemy is the greatest rap GROUP of all time, blending political activism with mad beats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ant_7000 Report post Posted April 23, 2002 rebuttal: Cee-lo is good rapper and is not a one hit wonder has been doing his thing back in his goodie mob days. Public Enemy is proably in my top 5 as in greatest rap group. Statement: NWA is the greatest rap group of all time cuz of political activism, they werent taking shit from nobody and they changed the rap game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest razazteca Report post Posted April 24, 2002 Rebuttal: I love the Dugeon Family music and Cee-Lo's use of retro funk, its refreshing to hear something different than the usual Thug music or the Ja Rule duets. Statement: RUN DMC is the greatest rap group to come out of the 80's explosion. They were at Wrestlemania 5, on SNL, featured in movies, hit the Billboard Charts. In general they were the 1st main stream rap group. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted April 24, 2002 OK... triple threat rebuttal... Statement: Public enemy is the greatest rap GROUP of all time, blending political activism with mad beats. Statement: RUN DMC is the greatest rap group to come out of the 80's explosion. They were at Wrestlemania 5, on SNL, featured in movies, hit the Billboard Charts. In general they were the 1st main stream rap group. Statement: NWA is the greatest rap group of all time cuz of political activism, they werent taking shit from nobody and they changed the rap game. Rebuttal: So who is the "greatest rap group of all time"? What is known for certain is that all of these groups are definitely amonst the greatest, and either one would be a fine choice depending on what you look for in rap/hip-hop. Here goes nothing... Public Enemy - my definite choice for greatest rap group of all time, simply because they took rap and gave it a message and a real meaning for the first time since, well, "The Message". Chuck D once referred to the art of hip-hop as "a black CNN", and that was definitely true. Public Enemy showed that rap wasn't just for jokers (even though Flava Flav, as talented as he was, was ironically one of the biggest jokers in hip-hop appearance-wise), and provided a strong dose of black power and urban knowledge into pop culture for at least a little while. On a much more trivial aspect, their production was bad-ass too. Run DMC - When referring to the laid back styles of "ol' skool", nobody comes more to mind than Run DMC. This crew ruled the charts, and became rock/rap pioneers when they teamed up with Aerosmith for a re-working of "Walk This Way". Though they, like the majority of popular rap artists in the '80s, were more about style and self-props than a real meaning (which is what made Public Enemy stand out so much), they were damned good at rhyming about themselves, and "King of Rock" in particular still stands out as one of my favorite rap tracks of all time (I even bought the 45 off eBay). NWA - When talking about '90s rap pioneers, the NWA is always first in line. This was the L.A. group that popularized gangsta/hardcore rap. In a way similar to Public Enemy, they spoke how they felt about the streets, and their brutal honesty often lead to controversy. Unfortunately, gangsta rap would rapidly degrade to self-parody, particularly once it found popularity amongst, of all people, the suburban white audience. But NWA always goes down as the true voice of Compton, and the fact that its members have gone on to remain influential and talented shows how much the group meant to '90s hip-hop artists. Whew! So, to recap, all are brilliant, and amongst the greatest ever, and depending upon what you look for in hip-hop and rap, it will differ which one you believe is your favorite. And now, since my brain is melted from all that and talking to people at the same time, I present an EASY statement that I don't even remotely believe... Statement: Vanilla Ice is really not all that bad. The only reason his comebacks never worked is because he was type-cast because of the success of "Ice Ice Baby". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest razazteca Report post Posted April 24, 2002 Vanilla Ice is really not all that bad. The only reason his comebacks never worked is because he was type-cast because of the success of "Ice Ice Baby Rebuttal: This is true he has been blackballed, from the business for what he has done with his image as the ghetto white boy. If he had "kept it real" of being a rich boy from Dallas, instead of being a Miami mark he might still be around today. He could of been another Beastie Boy but just ended up being another casuality of business. Rebuttal: Without RUN DMC neither of "the greatest rap groups" stated here would be around, if not for the boom that Def Jam started in the early 80s. All three groups made their mark in making Rap more than just a fad, but RUN DMC was the 1st big rap group. If you want to talk about Reality Rap as Chuck D calls his music then lets start with the group Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five who made waves with their song and video "The Jungle","White Lines". These songs were about the harsh life in the big city and the realities of drug abuse and being poor. Statement: Snow was just as bad if not worst than Vanilla Ice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kinetic Report post Posted April 24, 2002 Vanilla Ice is really not all that bad. The only reason his comebacks never worked is because he was type-cast because of the success of "Ice Ice Baby Rebuttal: This is true he has been blackballed, from the business for what he has done with his image as the ghetto white boy. If he had "kept it real" of being a rich boy from Dallas, instead of being a Miami mark he might still be around today. He could of been another Beastie Boy but just ended up being another casuality of business. Rebuttal: Without RUN DMC neither of "the greatest rap groups" stated here would be around, if not for the boom that Def Jam started in the early 80s. All three groups made their mark in making Rap more than just a fad, but RUN DMC was the 1st big rap group. If you want to talk about Reality Rap as Chuck D calls his music then lets start with the group Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five who made waves with their song and video "The Jungle","White Lines". These songs were about the harsh life in the big city and the realities of drug abuse and being poor. Statement: Snow was just as bad if not worst than Vanilla Ice. Rebuttal: They both suck, but "Informer" wasn't as big as "Ice Ice Baby" and Snow rapped a lot faster than Vanilla Ice, making it difficult comprehend what he was saying long enough to hate him for it. Statement: Rap albums would be a lot easier to get through if the artists didn't insist on every album being 70+ minutes long and featuring no less than twelve pointless, unfunny skits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest razazteca Report post Posted April 25, 2002 Rap albums would be a lot easier to get through if the artists didn't insist on every album being 70+ minutes long and featuring no less than twelve pointless, unfunny skits. Rebuttal: I have go agree with you on that, but Ludacris skits are funny except the "go to sleep one" which is tasteless. The mix tapes and CDs are better at the 70 minutes format especially DJ Rectangle who likes to add pop culture sound bytes in his mix. Statement: I hate the Thug rapper & Ghetto RNB singer duets. Fat Joe & Ashanti and Ja Rule & J-Lo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ant_7000 Report post Posted April 25, 2002 Rebuttal: I agree with the pointless skits, I do like some of them if it makes a point about something, or someone im cool with that but most of them are waste of time and i agree a hip hop album should be no longer 12 songs. And I dont mind the rap and R&B callabro but its overdone every since the Method Man and Mary J Blige (all that i need) song was successful everybody is doing rap and R&B callabro, I do like some of if makes since and its not off the subject of the song the recent rap and R&B songs i do like is the Fat Joe/Ashanti and Ashanti/Biggie now. But that Jay-z and R. Kelly album was a horrible idea. Statement: Mainstream rap gets 2 much attention and airplay(eventhough its decent club music) over consious or underground hip hop that gets little 2 no airplay at all when fans are tired of the Mainstream Material. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Man in Blak Report post Posted April 25, 2002 Rebuttal: I can't really vouch for underground hip hop, but I do know that virtually ALL of the rap out there now either sounds like it's directly ripping Jay-Z or TuPac or it just unequivocly sucks. People talk about a lot of diversity in hip hop, but for me, I don't think it's ever been any more stale or boring. Statement: The Strokes are truly one of the most influential and divine bands on this planet. (These are supposed to be contentious, right?) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kinetic Report post Posted April 25, 2002 Statement: The Strokes are truly one of the most influential and divine bands on this planet. (These are supposed to be contentious, right?) Rebuttal: Is This It isn't remotely original, influential, or what I would describe as "divine" regardless of how inebriated I was...but it's a decent album. Certainly not deserving of the incredible praise that certain publications heaped upon it, but good. If I had to, I'd give it three and a half snowflakes. Statement: But the White Stripes are much better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest razazteca Report post Posted April 25, 2002 Rebuttal: The Strokes are the most hyped band that I can think of. They sound good but I find the lead singer to be boring, he has no personality, he just stands there staring at the ceiling spitting out lyrics. Statement: System of a Down is an overrated band the tries to continue the angry rock tradition after Rage Against the Machine broke up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites