Question for anglesault

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I understand your dislike about lightweight wrestling, at least in the sense about the "flippy floppy stuff" which you haven't elaborated on.  

 

Here are my questions to you:

 

Have you ever enjoyed a Cruiserweight Match?  

 

Have you ever seen a Cruiserweight Match outside of what WCW, WWF, and ECW have done?  If so, what have you seen, with specifics?

 

What are some matches that qualify as top notch to you...you know, the MOTYC stuff?

 

The reason that I am interested in knowing this is because your constant trolls of the Cruisers (i.e. The AJ Styles thread, your first post specifically) is somewhat weird.  I know you love Angle, but what are good matches beyond this?

 

Basically, I just want to know if it is ignorance or is you have basis to stand behind your reasoning.

 

Tim

[Guest Anglesault]

I love when My name makes a title.

 

Have you ever enjoyed a Cruiserweight Match?  

 

Dean Melenko vs. Scotty at Backlash. I also liked The Dean vs. Kaientai mini-series last February.  I've never seen a WCW cruiserweight match I liked. (Mind you, I started wtahcing WCW more heavily after Jericho was gone)

 

 

Have you ever seen a Cruiserweight Match outside of what WCW, WWF, and ECW have done?  If so, what have you seen, with specifics?

 

Maybe one or two. Couldn't tell you which ones though.

 

 

 

What are some matches that qualify as top notch to you...you know, the MOTYC stuff?

 

Everything done in the match must have a point. I think everything they do should lead to (either directly or indirectly) something bigger. I can't stand SPOT-SPOT-SPOT-SPOT. And I HAHE HATE HATE that staple of cruiserweight matches, the triple flip into an armdrag.

[Guest Maurizio C... Version 2]

well, if Anglesault has never seen Super J Cup'94, than i think he's got an excuse and that's cool with me. japanese cruiser matches have style, psychology and different heat than the american ones.

[Guest]

Angle; Buy an M-Pro or a Toyumon tape. I think you'll like it...

[Guest Maurizio C... Version 2]

I bought a tape of Toryumon tv with Tokyo magnum vs CIMA and Magnum vs Sasuke. Fine, fine stuff...

[Guest Tim Cooke]

My suggestions would be to start with the limited WCW stuff that was exceptional since it will be in English and easier to follow.

 

12/91 (hh) and 2/92 Pillman v Liger

6/92 Benoit/Wellington v Liger/Pillman

2/93 Benoit v Scorpio

9/95 Pillman v Badd (not a lightweight match per say, but a good example of Japanese and Lucha influence on a regular match)

11/96 Dragon v Rey

12/96 Dragon v Malenko

10/97 Guerrero v Rey Jr.

 

From there get the cream of the crop of Liger and then venture into all of Juvi's 1994-1996 work and you will see that Junior work is often much more building move to move, esepcially when compared to the lack of what WWF does with that.

 

Tim

[Guest Shawn]

Angle weighs 220 lbs. right? Well technically he's a Cruiser.

 

 

As for Japanese Junior Heavyweight Matches, you might want to look for any of J-Cups (you'd probably prefer the most recent 2000 better). There are probably the mosy popular Jr.HVW tournaments. There are three: '94, '95, and 2000.

 

Look for Jyushin "Thunder" Lyger (also spelled as Jushin Liger) if you want match psyc and not a bunch of spots.

[Guest JerryDrake]

Angle weighs 220 lbs. right? Well technically he's a Cruiser.

But he doesnt wrestle the cruiserweight style, so AS doesnt hate him.

[Guest Mole]

Rey Jr. vs Eddy from Havoc 97' is my favorite cruiserweight match.

[Guest Shawn]

He still is technically but yeah, he doesn't wrestle the style.

 

He still shouldn't be against LHW until he has seen the Japanese matches. If he still dislikes it after then, then okay.

 

I myslef don't like a load of the Cruiserweight matches in the WWF but Japanese Junior Heavyweight is something I can always enjoy.

[Guest]

It really is all about the style, because according to a recent arrest report, Scott Hall weighs 225 lbs.  Which is the limit for a cruiserweight to a heavyweight (theoretically).  But of course, no one actually goes by that.

 

As for cruiserweight matches, anything from WCW with Benoit, Saturn, Kidman, Rey Jr, Dean Malenko, and the others on PPV is damn good.  I saw a three way tag team match, at like, Spring Stampede or something that was so awesome, I was just shocked that WWF, who has all the guys under contract, couldn't ever come up with the idea of putting those guys in a WWF ring together and seeing what happens.

[Guest Shawn]

Jerry Lynn vs. Super Crazy vs. Tanjiri

 

That will always be one of my favorites and it has that touch of the Cruiserweight style.

[Guest the living legend]

I can see Anglesault's point. A lot of the WWF, WCW, ECW stuff is very spot oriented (especially ECW). You really have to see the Super J sutff though. That can be used to judge whether you like the style or not.

 

The whole weight thing hasn't applied in pro wrestling for a long and I mean long time. It may apply to boxing or MMA but in wrestling its your style that determines whether your a cruiserweight (remember Whipwreck).

[Guest]

The Tajiri/Super Crazy matches from around early 99. Some of the best matches I've ever seen.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"I can see Anglesault's point. A lot of the WWF, WCW, ECW stuff is very spot oriented (especially ECW). You really have to see the Super J sutff though. That can be used to judge whether you like the style or not."

 

I don't see his point at all.  He admitted above to not seeing a whole lot of WCW Cruiserweight work, pre 1999, which would have something to do with his bias I guess.  A lot of the WCW stuff was very spot oriented, as well as the ECW work, but when you get down the fundamental work of some of these guys in their own elements, you can tons of things that make these matches anything more than "flippy Floppy."

 

A spot that Anglesault seems to hate is the monkey flips into an armdrag, a spot that is set up well in Lucha and is actually a building point.  The move is built from a test of strength/knucklelock sequence and is continued as a transition into a new sequence.  For example, whenever Rey and Juvi did this, Rey would lose the test of strength to show he was weaker, yet win the end armdrag, putting him back on offense.  A very creative and sensible spot that both comes from another move and builds towards not even a next move, but a next sequence of moves.  

 

His bias seems ignorant.  I personally don't care for the WWF Style of wrestling but when it produces flashes or greatness or does something right, I will not only accept, but also praise it.  Anglesault seems to be blind to this and not even able to accept it in any form.  That is what trolling is.

 

Tim

[Guest Brian]

I don't even see why cruiserweights are all bunched as one homogenous style? In the US, they're too spot oriented, but there's pseudo shoot and there's more hevyweight style matches w/ spots, and there's matches that build off spots, and there's a ton of different styles yet at the mention of cruiserweights, they all seem to be grouped together as spot machines. Why is that?

[Guest]

I think it's ridiculous that heavies and middleweights get grouped together but cruisers are "too small" so they have to compete for their own title. Fuckin ridiculous, everyone should have a shot at the main titles...

[Guest One Bad Apple]

"I can see Anglesault's point. A lot of the WWF, WCW, ECW stuff is very spot oriented (especially ECW). You really have to see the Super J sutff though. That can be used to judge whether you like the style or not."

 

I don't see his point at all.  He admitted above to not seeing a whole lot of WCW Cruiserweight work, pre 1999, which would have something to do with his bias I guess.  A lot of the WCW stuff was very spot oriented, as well as the ECW work, but when you get down the fundamental work of some of these guys in their own elements, you can tons of things that make these matches anything more than "flippy Floppy."

 

A spot that Anglesault seems to hate is the monkey flips into an armdrag, a spot that is set up well in Lucha and is actually a building point.  The move is built from a test of strength/knucklelock sequence and is continued as a transition into a new sequence.  For example, whenever Rey and Juvi did this, Rey would lose the test of strength to show he was weaker, yet win the end armdrag, putting him back on offense.  A very creative and sensible spot that both comes from another move and builds towards not even a next move, but a next sequence of moves.  

 

His bias seems ignorant.  I personally don't care for the WWF Style of wrestling but when it produces flashes or greatness or does something right, I will not only accept, but also praise it.  Anglesault seems to be blind to this and not even able to accept it in any form.  That is what trolling is.

 

Tim

Haven't you gone through this whole thing before?

 

Okay ... I don't like Anglesault.  I think he's an idiot.

 

But if he doesn't like most cruiserweight wrestling and has told you why ... shouldn't that be enough for you?  

 

So you don't see his point.  Does that make him biased and ignorant?  If I watch a couple episodes of "Seinfeld" and decide it's garbage, am I not allowed to have that opinion?  Do I gotta catch every season in syndication before I'm allowed to criticize it?  A little unreasonable, if ya ask me.  

 

Really, person, you're kind of being an ass.  

 

Then again ... I haven't read every post you've made here, so maybe I should, y'know, reserve my judgment.