Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted April 6, 2002 I don't know what Kenji Mutoh will be remembered for when he finally retires from wrestling. Will it be his large amounts of no selling, his laziness to just lie on the mat for many parts of his matches, or his "puroresu love". I know that to me, he will be remembered as a guy with unlimited potential who was too stupid to try to use it correctly. I went into this match expecting nothing. I had heard all the complaints and criticisms about their 4/14/01 match and had decided against purchasing it. But when the 2/24 PPV came in through a group I trade with, I gave it a shot, expecting nothing and came out of the match with even less. The whole match is designed around Mutoh and his stupid dropkicks and shining wizards. If that weren't enough, whenever Kawada tries to do something logical (like a backdrop driver for a transition), Muoth would either no sell it or play it off as a way to get in one of his regular moves and then sell a little bit. Add to that the fact that Kawada does his best to make Mutoh's moves meaningfull by selling them, where as Mutoh doesn't help out the least bit to make Kawada's moves effective. At the end of the match, after a third regular powerbomb with a 50% ganso bomb thrown in as well, Mutoh just walks out of the ring after the match like nothing had just happened. Mutoh v Tenyru from 6/8/01 got a lot of hype because it was two old guys going at a fast pace. Fuck that. This match had Mutoh working at that same pace but it didn't matter. After watching the Destroyer in about 10 matches, it is clear you don't have to work a million miles an hour to put on an entertaining, logical match. From the outrageous no selling to his general selfishness in the ring, Mutoh proved to be nothing more than a bitter, washed up old hack, who deserves nothing more than he is going to get...a pair of blown out knees wheil working for a promotion that will be dead before it ever gets back on its feet. **1/2, all for Kawada's effort and general willingness to TRY to get something decent out of Mutoh. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HopeSpot Report post Posted April 6, 2002 We all know how I feel about Mutoh and I didn't like that match. But the show was enjoyable overall, sad thing is pro wrestling is dying right before are very eyes. 2002: worst year to be a fan ever? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TopSecretMan Report post Posted April 6, 2002 1999 was no walk in the park. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted April 6, 2002 "We all know how I feel about Mutoh and I didn't like that match. But the show was enjoyable overall, sad thing is pro wrestling is dying right before are very eyes. 2002: worst year to be a fan ever?" It is going to be a bad year, but at least we can always look back through history and see the stuff that is awesome. 2001 wasn't even much to talk about it either. Nothing really great. I still need to see the Liger work from 2001 that was praised but other than that, I saw nothing that makes me think 2002 (or 2003) for that matter will really rock. As for the show, I thought it was a bland PPV. Zero One's first 2 PPV's from last year were far more enjoyable and I am betting when I see the AJW PPV from the same day that it will be better. Add to the fact that on the tape I have with the AJPW PPV, there is the Feb Japan TV block. Kobashi/Misawa v Akiyama/Nagata was ********** compared to Mutoh v Kawada. And this goes with Misawa looking so old, Kobashi looking so old, Akiyama lacking any heat for any of his moves, and Nagata actually shining through all of them. Props to Kobashi for working such a stiff match, but he is also a moron for not taking time off back in 1998 so "Dream Matches' like these would actually mean something in the long run. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TopSecretMan Report post Posted April 7, 2002 2001 was pretty good to me. CMLL, Zenjo, and NEO were all pretty great, and if you count PRIDE, I think it makes for a nice year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted April 7, 2002 Ok, seeing as how I was looking forward to the 2/24/02 ppv, can anyone dispute or backup tim cooke's opinion. There has been a real lack of quality wrestling as of late and this looked like a killer show to check out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jubuki Report post Posted April 7, 2002 The 2/24/02 show should be avoided at all costs, unless you want a good cure for insomnia. No surprise that Mutoh capped off the most embarrassing TC reign ever with an embarrassment of a match. Tenryu/Kojima was the best match on the card and was **3/4-ish, tops. A joke from beginning to end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted April 7, 2002 Wow, and the reports coming out of the show were so positive. Well, damn does anybody have any suggestions on ANY good cards this year? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted April 7, 2002 "Wow, and the reports coming out of the show were so positive. Well, damn does anybody have any suggestions on ANY good cards this year?" Nothing. Go back and fill in gaps in your tape collection for some quality stuff. Though I still need to see the AJW 2/24 PPV. The AJPW PPV was unwatchable at times. They have no undercard, their main events are even ancient (Mutoh, Tenyru), over rated a bit (Kojima), or sick and frustrated (Kawada). Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HopeSpot Report post Posted April 8, 2002 What about the Jan. 04 T-Dome show I heard thier was some good stuff on that? The AJPW was an exercise in mediocrity. I didn't think it was as bad as you guys did it but it's not anything I'd pay or go out of my way to pick up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted April 8, 2002 "What about the Jan. 04 T-Dome show I heard thier was some good stuff on that?" Nothing out of the ordinary. Tokyo Dome sucks for Juniors and those looked like the best matches. The 6 man Junior match intrigues me a little bit but I would probably be disapointed. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest glea44 Report post Posted April 8, 2002 I enjoyed the 1.4.02 show quite a bit.There were no motyc's on the show but it was a solid wrestling show.The opener(Inoue/Shibaata vs Naruse/Kahikara) was fun. Tanaka/Samurai vs Kanemoto/Akira was good Id say ***.The junior six man was very solid but I expeced more even in the dome(***1/4).The main of Akiyama vs Nagata was a very good match I thought though not the moty alot of people thought they might have. I put it around ***3/4. The rest of the matches were nothing much but nothing was outright bad in my opinion except Kashin vs Matsui which was horrible, worse in fact than Silva vs Nakanishi. Overall I thought it was a fun show with nothing blow away, alot of decent to good matches, and one joke of a match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Stuart Report post Posted April 8, 2002 I just finished watching the AJPW and it ROCKED. Sorry, had to get the "agree with the consensus" out the way. In seriousness, it wasn't a very good show. The undercard was indeed very bad, while two of the "big three" didn't live up to expectations. Kea vs. Nagai showed why Nagai is not ready for a big push and has been overrated. Kojima vs. Tenryu I really dug and have no real complaints with, just a fun beating. The main event was a huge letdown after the hype. It was very slightly better than the 2001 match, but not enough to justify it a higher rating. I was amazed by how bad the selling was, even by Kawada. For the snowflake people, my ratings were, Hirai vs. Hijikata: *3/4 Naniwa vs. Hiroki vs. Urano: *1/4 Double Sheiks vs. Tanaka & Hosaka: * Okumura & Honma vs. Varsity Club: *1/4 Miyamoto vs. Ka Shin: 1/2* Barton, Steele & Hines vs. Anjo, Arashi & Araya: *1/4 Kea vs. Nagai: **1/2 Tenryu vs. Kojima: ***1/2 Muto vs. Kawada: ***1/4 So overall, yeah... http://www.puroresufan.com/reviews/ajpw/ppv022402.php - My full review of the PPV As for AJPW being the best male promotion in the world for work? I disagree. Right now, my top 5 for top to bottom work would probably be, 1. Toryumon 2000 Project 2. New Japan 3. Toryumon Japan 4. Michinoku Pro 5. All Japan And I watch all the AJPW GAORA TV. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest poopsicle316 Report post Posted April 9, 2002 At least a fellow T2P fan comes to the rescue of 2002 (Y) Let's not condemn an entire year until, oh I don't know, 4 full months have passed. Screw it, why not wait until the entire YEAR is over (a crazy idea, I know). Anyway, it appears that I was in the minority since I enjoyed the 2/24 show. The undercard may have been weak but the headline matches all worked for me. Kea's effort made that match very watchable and I don't see what else people were looking for in Kojima/Tenryu that they didn't see. And shoot me if you want, but I didn't find the Mutoh match bad at all (but clearly far from Keiji's best). The matwork was a bit slow and Mutoh's selling wasn't spectacular, but the overall match told a (somewhat) coherent story and it just clicked for me. Just a suggestion, but it seems like alot of people here are going to hate anything unless it's Joshi, 95-96 AJPW, or a Tiger Mask match. If you compare every era to 95 AJPW, you're always going to be disappointed, just a thought. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted April 9, 2002 "Just a suggestion, but it seems like alot of people here are going to hate anything unless it's Joshi, 95-96 AJPW, or a Tiger Mask match." Hardly. I am far from schooled in the Joshi world but there is a ton of bad Joshi from the little bit I have seen. So that broad generalization doesn't cut it. 1995-1996 AJPW is either a home run or a strike out looking. You have the great main events but then there are those matches that have far too much craziness or head dropping. From 1995-1996, I can only name these matches as one's that I would consider world class from the period: 4/15/95 Misawa v Taue 6/9/95 Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue 9/10/95 MIsawa v Taue 10/15/95 Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue 10/25/95 Kawada v Albright 6/7/96 Misawa/Akiyama v Williams/Ace 12/6/96 Misawa/Akiyama v Kawada/Taue Of course, you have those dozen or more matches that are just good by AJPW standards (Kawada v Taue 4/8/95) but still kick the ass of anything coming out of all the other promotions, at the time and in present day. As for Tiger Mask, I understand his historical influence but he isn't the standard I compare Junior matches too. "If you compare every era to 95 AJPW, you're always going to be disappointed, just a thought." So what else should I compare the current AJPW product too? Logic tells me that if I want to fully understand and find what is good about a match, I need to look at it's roots. By what your saying, I should just ignore that and try to forget the AJPW was once the best promotion in the world for a good number of years. But then again, I have been told that thinking too much is not a good thing to do in wrestling, so maybe I am the person who is wrong. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted April 9, 2002 1995-1996 AJPW is either a home run or a strike out looking. You have the great main events but then there are those matches that have far too much craziness or head dropping. From 1995-1996, I can only name these matches as one's that I would consider world class from the period: 4/15/95 Misawa v Taue 6/9/95 Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue 9/10/95 MIsawa v Taue 10/15/95 Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue 10/25/95 Kawada v Albright 6/7/96 Misawa/Akiyama v Williams/Ace 12/6/96 Misawa/Akiyama v Kawada/Taue I'd add these three: 7/24/95 Misawa vs. Kawada 3/31/96 Misawa vs. Kobashi 7/9/96 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue The first is arguably the second best Misawa-Kawada match, the second is IMO the first GREAT Misawa-Kobashi and the the third is better than the teams' tag title change in May. All would be ****3/4 from my point of view. BTW, I am *SHOCKED* that Mutoh-Kawada sucked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted April 9, 2002 "7/24/95 Misawa vs. Kawada" Need to rewatch it. I remember really liking it but need to see it again before I would personally add to the list. "3/31/96 Misawa vs. Kobashi 7/9/96 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue" I need to see these. "BTW, I am *SHOCKED* that Mutoh-Kawada sucked." Yes......me too Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MrDanger Report post Posted April 9, 2002 Wow, and the reports coming out of the show were so positive. Well, damn does anybody have any suggestions on ANY good cards this year? IMO the WWF hasn't done anything mind blowing this year, Rumble and Mania were entertaining but I'd hardly call them great wrestling cards. I hated the New Japan January 4 show, Akiyama/Nagata should have been much better and the Giants totally wreck the mid card. The junior matches are pretty good but not nothing mind blowing. The best show I've seen this year is actually the UK Revival show, two matches at or above **** and a mind blowing spot fest from Jody Fleisch and Jonny Storm. I'd suggest you check it out if haven't seen it I've got a ton of stuff including the AJPW PPV due in sometime this week so I'll pass on my thoughts then, however I've read the PBP and Kawada/Mutoh sounds poor, I guess we'll see. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Stuart Report post Posted April 9, 2002 Get the Rainbow Pro show from January. So much fun, plenty of high workrate, some hardcore, variety, Sasuke taking his craziest bump ever (ladder on his head, ala Terry Funk ---> release German suplex by Motegi) and just great indy spirit all around. The Toryumon match on the show is excellent. While CIMA, TOKYO and SUWA have burnt out and become boring, guys like Susumu, Darkness Dragon, Dragon Kid, Genki and Shiisa (SAITO) are all looking better than ever. Also, the T2P show from January is something else. These guys are amazing. Haven't watched the ZERO-ONE PPV yet, but it looks quite nice on paper. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jubuki Report post Posted April 10, 2002 Anyway, it appears that I was in the minority since I enjoyed the 2/24 show. The undercard may have been weak but the headline matches all worked for me. Sure...if the "hit me with stuff and see if I kick out" nature of Tenryu/Kojima is your thing, and if unbearably shitty selling that negates the big-move-after-big-move flow of Kawada/Mutoh is your thing. Enjoy all you want with that stuff; it's all yours. Mutoh's selling wasn't spectacular, Understatement of the century. but the overall match told a (somewhat) coherent story That story being... Mutoh: Yeah, I've pissed on the TC by defending it against guys like Hall...so howsabout I piss on it some more by half-assedly selling 2/3's of the new champ's stuff and completely blowing off the other third as weak and useless, not to mention standing up after taking the Ganso Bomb and trying to act tough. Yeah, the crowd'll buy that, they're stupid, what do they know about pro-wrestling love?? Just a suggestion, but it seems like alot of people here are going to hate anything unless it's Joshi, 95-96 AJPW, or a Tiger Mask match. As Tim said, plenty of bad Joshi out there; also a bit of mediocre Tiger Mask out there (or matches where he's being thoroughly carried), and 91-93 AJPW was better than 95-96 if you look at entire cards rather than just the main events. I think that's what the whole AJPW Meltzer ratings database thing over at rasman.com is designed to show. But there I go thinking about this stuff and punching holes in the logic of people who clearly don't want to have to think about these things... After all, maybe if they did, they'd realize that there are people like myself out there who don't like stuff simply because it's from Promotion X during Year Y -- they like it because it's GOOD. Scary idea, that. Probably a bit too revolutionary for these parts. If you compare every era to 95 AJPW, you're always going to be disappointed, just a thought. Thinking! Haha! If I compare every era to 95 AJ, I'm going to find far better sellers than Kobashi was then, far better Jrs. than what AJ ever had, far better midcarders who could step up and work a main event once in a while, shows where more than 2 matches are good, etc. So much for all that thinking you're doing, and so much for my disappointment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HopeSpot Report post Posted April 10, 2002 "But then again, I have been told that thinking too much is not a good thing to do in wrestling, so maybe I am the person who is wrong." Analyzing and following puro/lucha closely I can see, but the last time I watched the WWF Mr. Perfect shoved his face (with a towel over it) up Rikishis ass, Rikishi got of him and the towel was stuck up his ass!!! I don't want to think about that deeply or other wise. Pretty much the reason why I don't talk about wrestling in front of non fans anymore. I wanted to write more but my PC is fucked so whatever. So Chris what would you reccomend (Joshi included as I'm going to breakdown and pick up some more tapes),anything? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted April 10, 2002 So Chris what would you reccomend (Joshi included as I'm going to breakdown and pick up some more tapes),anything? Why do you want to buy sideshow wrestling? The offense isn't credible, right? So what's the point? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HopeSpot Report post Posted April 11, 2002 Hey I'm willing to give it a second chance, and Wolverine you sound like a little bitch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jubuki Report post Posted April 11, 2002 Ahhh, the intelligent people round here need to know to not feed the trolls... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HopeSpot Report post Posted April 11, 2002 Chris's idea of intellgence is agreeing with absoluetly everything he says, becasue he's smarter than you are god damnit!!! Chris go back to whatever teen chat you crawled out of, as soon as someone disagrees with you it's time to lash out and start flaming. Sad really, but I guess that passes for puro knoweldge in "these parts." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jubuki Report post Posted April 11, 2002 Wow, you sure told me. ISTR it wasn't myself or Wolverine who started the petty name-calling...but don't let the facts get in the way... I'll make it easy for you - if I'm involved in a thread, don't involve yourself. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if you have questions; I'm not going to answer them, and your incessant bleating has, as evidenced by this thread, kept others from giving you any help as well. Instead of responding in the most banal and childish way you can dredge up, try picking up on the patterns at work and doing something worthwhile about them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HopeSpot Report post Posted April 12, 2002 "Simple as that. It doesn't matter if you have questions; I'm not going to answer them," LOL!!! Chris don't flatter yourself, that was supposed to be a sarcastic remark, because we all know you hate everything and couldn't see through your nilistic eyes long enough to reccomend shit. The teacher doesn't ask the student questions little fella. Like I actually give a fuck what you like/dislike HAHAHAHA!!!! And as far as anyone else on this board goes, Oh fuck, that took the cake, you actually think they won't answer my questions because you tell them not to? I like pretty much everyone on this board and have never flamed anyone but you and your sheep. You are one sad little man my friend, when I have a question I send someone a personal message (like Tim) or got to Highspots or BadAssMofo. I'll stop their Chris I'm not supposed to feed the trolls. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatypusFool Report post Posted April 12, 2002 1. HopeSpot, I have also in the past got hugely annoyed with Chris' seeming dislike of everything, and tendancies to shoot down everythign people say that he doesn't agree with, or points that have not been thought through to the last detail, but can we not just leave it? I mean, he does know what he's talking about, he just isn't very excepting of people that don't enjoy wrestling on the level that he does. I would advise ignoring Chris' negativity, cos it aint going anywhere. 2. Chris, if you don't want people to feed the trolls then do not continue this pointless flaming argument over nothing, and stop being a troll yourself. You have no opinion on this matter, you are simply insulting HopeSpot like all the trolls do, except by using longer words to make yourself sound intelligent. Just stop this rubbish for crying out loud, we are here to discuss puroresu, not hate each other for differing opinions. Jubuki, if you reply to this with another one of your 'quote a bit then insult it, then quote another bit then insult that' posts, then you really are taking this flaming stuff to new levels. Just calm down folks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jubuki Report post Posted April 12, 2002 I've got an opinion on the matter that transcends insulting by a good margin, if you're paying attention. I predicted banal and childish responses, I get banal and childish responses. Right there in black and white, for all to see. It's near-Pavlovian. I'm just surprised - though maybe I shouldn't be - that I'm the only one who's noticing the trend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HopeSpot Report post Posted April 12, 2002 Look for flames somewhere else Chris because you're not getting them from me anymore. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
