TNA News From The Torch

[Guest TDinDC1112]

"The downfall for Jerry Lynn was when they started bringing people into the X division who could wrestle and not just spot."

 

And these wrestlers are?

 

And the matches are?

 

Every TNA X-Division match I have seen has been a spotfest.

 

Tim

Sabin, Daniels

[Tim Cooke 0]

Sabin?

 

Haven't seen a match of his that hasn't been a spotfest. His Super 8 work, which I saw live, was spotfest material.

 

His TNA work hasn't shown any story to the least degree.

 

His ROH work, both live and on tape, has been spotfest stuff.

 

6/28 vs. Styles (no real story, just a lot of spotty moves)

9/20 vs. Styles and 2 others in a 4 way (the most spotty 4 way of the year in ROH)

10/16 vs. Stryker (granted, Stryker had an off night but Sabin didn't do anything to help make the match anything other than a spot0fu)

 

Tim

[Guest MikeSC]

Val Venis > A piss-fuck ton of wrestlers

Val when being pushed is something pretty good. When he ISN'T pushed, he's average.

 

But he never gets the credit as being really good.

 

Heck, he worked really well w/ Rikishi --- no small feat.

-=Mike

[Guest TDinDC1112]

Sabin?

 

Haven't seen a match of his that hasn't been a spotfest. His Super 8 work, which I saw live, was spotfest material.

 

His TNA work hasn't shown any story to the least degree.

 

His ROH work, both live and on tape, has been spotfest stuff.

 

6/28 vs. Styles (no real story, just a lot of spotty moves)

9/20 vs. Styles and 2 others in a 4 way (the most spotty 4 way of the year in ROH)

10/16 vs. Stryker (granted, Stryker had an off night but Sabin didn't do anything to help make the match anything other than a spot0fu)

 

Tim

Well, I guess that's one persons opinion. I'm not going to back and rewatch the matches on tape 4 times and disect every move. What about Daniels?

[Guest TDinDC1112]

Val Venis > A piss-fuck ton of wrestlers

Val when being pushed is something pretty good. When he ISN'T pushed, he's average.

 

But he never gets the credit as being really good.

 

Heck, he worked really well w/ Rikishi --- no small feat.

-=Mike

Val is a good wrestler.

[Guest MikeSC]

Val Venis > A piss-fuck ton of wrestlers

Val when being pushed is something pretty good. When he ISN'T pushed, he's average.

 

But he never gets the credit as being really good.

 

Heck, he worked really well w/ Rikishi --- no small feat.

-=Mike

Val is a good wrestler.

When he's getting pushed, he's really good. His work w/ Rikishi in 2000 shows that.

 

When he's not getting pushed, he mails in matches (something Ultimo Dragon did in WCW far too often).

-=Mike

...Why isn't Val in the IC Title hunt?

[Guest dvkorn]

Val Venis > A piss-fuck ton of wrestlers

Val when being pushed is something pretty good. When he ISN'T pushed, he's average.

 

But he never gets the credit as being really good.

 

Heck, he worked really well w/ Rikishi --- no small feat.

-=Mike

Val is a good wrestler.

When he's getting pushed, he's really good. His work w/ Rikishi in 2000 shows that.

 

When he's not getting pushed, he mails in matches (something Ultimo Dragon did in WCW far too often).

-=Mike

...Why isn't Val in the IC Title hunt?

Add to that a few of his matches in 98... Vs Jarrett at Fully Loaded... Vs D'Lo at SummerSlam which the crowd was hot for which made it that uch better... ok, well... i can't remember who he wrestled on the other ppv's nor the tv... but he was having some decent-good matches...

 

Anyway... i was just adding to the Val is good train of thought...

[Tim Cooke 0]

"Well, I guess that's one persons opinion. I'm not going to back and rewatch the matches on tape 4 times and disect every move. What about Daniels?"

 

Daniels is a spot guy most of the time in TNA from what I have seen. As Curry Man in MPro and NJ, he is obviously a spot guy too, though my NJ footage of him is limited.

 

Daniels in ROH rides the wide spectrum. Against Doug Williams on 10/5/02, he is primarily a spot guy. Against Williams again on 3/22/03, he is a ****+ guy.

 

Against Homicide on 4/12, he looks like crap and wrestles as a spot guy. On 4/26/03 against London, he wrestles with some more thought again.

 

Daniels is a guy I love to hate to love. He churnes out a performance like 3/22/03 and the possibilities are endless. But then when against a decent guy like Samoa Joe on 9/20, he wrestles his typical spot, no transitions style.

 

Tim

[Guest TDinDC1112]

Isn't the point to be entertained? Is it fun or entertaining to disect and analyze a match like that and look into transitions and all that? Maybe it is, and I'm missing something. I guess I think sometimes spotfests have their place.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

blasphemy.

 

Everyone shall wrestle the same, and how good they are shall be determined by how little they vary from the correct way.

[Guest OSIcon]

Isn't the point to be entertained? Is it fun or entertaining to disect and analyze a match like that and look into transitions and all that?

 

I know that when I watch a match, I don't have to look for that stuff. It is just noticeable. When there is a poor transition, it takes away from the realism of the match thereby hurting its "entertainment" value. When a guy doesn't sell something, that stops me in my tracks and disrupts the flow of the match. Wrestling is all about drawing people into a match and making them really get into the action. I have a hard time getting into a match that has no transitions, illogical moves, ect. because it takes away the realism. The best matches are the ones I can watch all the way though, get lost in, follow the story, enjoy the wrestling, and never once think that a move or seuqeunce didn't make any sense.

 

I guess I think sometimes spotfests have their place.

 

They do. The thing is though, a great spotfest is not on the level of a great normal match. The spotfest is just an exhibition of moves while really good matches have good moves, a story, emotion, ect. A spotfest can be fun to watch and they work well as a change of pace on a card. But it is a bit like comparing "Jackass" to "The Sopranos". Shows like Jackass can be fun to watch for all the sunts and stuff, but that is as deep as they get. Shows that have deep storylines, good acting, ect. can also be fun to watch and are ultimately more fulfilling/better. Spotfest and non-spotfests are the same.

 

blasphemy.

 

Everyone shall wrestle the same, and how good they are shall be determined by how little they vary from the correct way.

 

Not really. Wrestlers can wrestle anyway they want as long as it MAKES SENSE and have a purpose. When wrestlers lack good transitions (or any transitions), do moves that make little sense, and/or just throw together moves with no story/flow, that is bad. If a wrestler can wrestle a different style and still incorporate those very basic principles of a wrestling match, then there isn't a problem.

 

Take RVD for instance. RVD *could* be a decent wrestler still using the moveset he has. The problem right now with him is that he doesn't put the moves in any logical order and just doesn't sell at all. His problem is not that he wrestles differently. His problem is that he doesn't follow some of the basic rules of what makes a pro wrestling match good (selling, flow, ect.). Same with Sabin to an extent.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

Isn't the point to be entertained? Is it fun or entertaining to disect and analyze a match like that and look into transitions and all that?

 

I know that when I watch a match, I don't have to look for that stuff. It is just noticeable. When there is a poor transition, it takes away from the realism of the match thereby hurting its "entertainment" value. When a guy doesn't sell something, that stops me in my tracks and disrupts the flow of the match. Wrestling is all about drawing people into a match and making them really get into the action. I have a hard time getting into a match that has no transitions, illogical moves, ect. because it takes away the realism. The best matches are the ones I can watch all the way though, get lost in, follow the story, enjoy the wrestling, and never once think that a move or seuqeunce didn't make any sense.

 

I guess I think sometimes spotfests have their place.

 

They do. The thing is though, a great spotfest is not on the level of a great normal match. The spotfest is just an exhibition of moves while really good matches have good moves, a story, emotion, ect. A spotfest can be fun to watch and they work well as a change of pace on a card. But it is a bit like comparing "Jackass" to "The Sopranos". Shows like Jackass can be fun to watch for all the sunts and stuff, but that is as deep as they get. Shows that have deep storylines, good acting, ect. can also be fun to watch and are ultimately more fulfilling/better. Spotfest and non-spotfests are the same.

 

blasphemy.

 

Everyone shall wrestle the same, and how good they are shall be determined by how little they vary from the correct way.

 

Not really. Wrestlers can wrestle anyway they want as long as it MAKES SENSE and have a purpose. When wrestlers lack good transitions (or any transitions), do moves that make little sense, and/or just throw together moves with no story/flow, that is bad. If a wrestler can wrestle a different style and still incorporate those very basic principles of a wrestling match, then there isn't a problem.

 

Take RVD for instance. RVD *could* be a decent wrestler still using the moveset he has. The problem right now with him is that he doesn't put the moves in any logical order and just doesn't sell at all. His problem is not that he wrestles differently. His problem is that he doesn't follow some of the basic rules of what makes a pro wrestling match good (selling, flow, ect.). Same with Sabin to an extent.

I agree with almost everything you said, but when you say that poor transitions and lack of selling take away from the realism.......how does anything you see look believable to you then? If people got punched in the face that many times in real life they'd die! Get hit with a chair and you break your back! So are you saying that you can buy everything that happens in a wrestling match and get lost in it, but a lack of selling bothers you? It bothers me too, but I guess not because I want the match to be as real as possible, but because I want the booking of the match to make sense. Wrestling ISN'T SUPPOSED TO LOOK REAL. If it did, guys wouldn't turn around and bounce off ropes, etc. etc. etc. Real doesn't draw because you can't control who wins and build stars. I feel like I'm babbling now, so I'll end it as I just think we're long past the point of things looking real.