Does it matter?

[Guest]

So does work rate even matter anymore? Smart fans have turned workrate into the be-all of wrestling for the last ten or so years. Of course, smart fans also understand that the ultimate goal of wrestling is to make money. So when Hogan and the Rock stumble through a 2-3 star match depending on which smart critic you listen to, doesn't it just prove McMahon & JR's point that the smart fans don't know shit about what makes money in wrestling and as such, aren't worth listening to?

 

Just saying...

 

Meanwhile... do faces and heels even matter anymore? Most fans just seem to cheer and boo whoever the hell they want these days. For all the talk of Triple H "turning heel" to fight Hogan, it seems more to me that Hogan is simply being cheered while Helmsley is being booed. Most fans love Hogan, Rock, Austin, and/or RVD. What makes Triple H so special, and the reason he's the "undisputed champion of the woorrrrllllldddd" is because he's one of the few performers who can work an intense angle with anybody no matter who the fan favorite is. Benoit, Bret, Michaels, Flair, and Savage are also on the short list of this type of main event performer. I don't even think the WWF thinks about faces and heels anymore. They're more concerned with credibility than heat these days. Main eventers tend to split wins and losses with other main eventers, making the top of the card look stacked with talent. I think it was 5-6 years ago that McMahon announced "shades of gray" and they've pretty much executed the vision at this point.

 

So my double question is this... now that I've rambled on about my thoughts...

 

1... Should smart fans who understand that making money is the ultimate goal of wrestling be so overly concerned with workrate?

 

And 2... Is it finally time to retire the terms "face" and "heel" in wrestlespeak?

[Guest Some Guy]

1) yes

 

2) no, fans need someone to cheer and someone to boo.  When you take away that elemant you genarally don't make money in the long run, which violates the main goal of the business.

[Guest Dr. Wrestlingphysics]

"Is it finally time to retire the terms "face" and "heel" in wrestlespeak?"

 

If only. This concept worked for a short while with SCSA's direction being based on fan reaction, but the way that all faces are friends and hate Vince Mcmahon, and all heels hate all faces makes a mockery of this concept.

Even in the past couple of weeks we've had Lesnar doing his run-ins and immediately being cast as a heel as he's only attacking faces. Booker vs DDP, Lesnar attacks DDP, Booker walks off. Regal vs Rikishi, Lesnar attacks Rikishi, Regal  walks off.

If the WWF stopped this type of thing and let Lesnar attack anyone and everyone and let the fans decide if they liked him or not, then the "shades of grey" thing would hold more water.

[Guest RicFlairGlory]

So does work rate even matter anymore? Smart fans have turned workrate into the be-all of wrestling for the last ten or so years. Of course, smart fans also understand that the ultimate goal of wrestling is to make money. So when Hogan and the Rock stumble through a 2-3 star match depending on which smart critic you listen to, doesn't it just prove McMahon & JR's point that the smart fans don't know shit about what makes money in wrestling and as such, aren't worth listening to?

 

The WWF is out to sell shit. Smarks want good wrestling. So the two dont always coincide, leading to comments like "god damnit fuck the WWF, why dont they have workrate in at least ONE match????"

 

Meanwhile... do faces and heels even matter anymore? Most fans just seem to cheer and boo whoever the hell they want these days. For all the talk of Triple H "turning heel" to fight Hogan, it seems more to me that Hogan is simply being cheered while Helmsley is being booed.

 

Hogan is a special case. Theres Hogan, and the guy Hogan is facing. Doesnt matter who that guy is.  Though I think the ME of HHH vs. HHH is hilarious.

 

I don't even think the WWF thinks about faces and heels anymore. They're more concerned with credibility than heat these days

 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH!!!!!!!!!  Credibility? What the hell? haha, oh man thats hilarious, did you SEE Jericho's title run? Do you know why Kurt is in a feud with EDGE??  Credibility... thats hilarious!!

 

I think it was 5-6 years ago that McMahon announced "shades of gray" and they've pretty much executed the vision at this point

 

"Shades of Grey" simply means that they're straying from the Classic "Hulk Hogan, eat your vitamins, drink your milk, never do wrong" Face.  Nowadays the faces are badasses, like Austin. Or guys who can bash someone in the head with a steel chair, laugh at them, and have the crowd love it, like Rock (well,and Austin.).  All he meant by shades of grey, is its not good vs. bad anymore. its bad vs. worse.

 

Should smart fans who understand that making money is the ultimate goal of wrestling be so overly concerned with workrate?

 

Just because Vince wants money doesnt mean we're going to root for him making money. We want to see good wrestling

 

And 2... Is it finally time to retire the terms "face" and "heel" in wrestlespeak?

 

Absolutely not. Because they mean fan favorite and non fan favorite. Not good guys and bad guys

[Guest Special K]

In terms of workrate, I believe it is still important. I'm not expecting 10 minute matches in the undercard, but give them more than 3 to strut their stuff. I do agree that sports entertainment is here to stay, but a couple longer matches a week would greatly increase my enjoyment.

 

    In terms of face/heel, I agree that the fact that old alliances are immdiately forgotten once someone turns makes them still the rule, not the exception. I guess it eliminates the writers needing to keep track of that nasty continuity.

[Guest]

By credibility I'm probably talking about something else. I know the old school idea of credibility was to push one guy over and over until he seemed like a world beater, but in the last five years or so, they've moved to a more "push the whole roster" mentality. Never in the Hogan or Hart eras would you have seen so many main eventers as you do today. For all the talk of Austin/Rock/HHH hogging the main event for so long, they've elevated a multitude of other performers in their era which is more than any other era can say. Jericho got wins over Austin and Rock, Angle got over on on all three of them, Van Dam got pinfall wins on everybody in his first six months which almost made him too credible.

 

I see your point on the face/heel thing, though. Jericho and Angle tend to get their wins by cheating, kissing ass, finding loop holes, or basically just out thinking the brawny opponent, and this is the characteristic of the old school heel.

 

Let me ask a different question, though. Is it at least no longer necessary to define characters as face/heel and just accept they'll play the various roles depending on the match up?

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

1... Should smart fans who understand that making money is the ultimate goal of wrestling be so overly concerned with workrate?

Yes.  It doesn't put money in my pocket, and until that happens, I'm more concerned w/ what is entertaining to me.  And it's not Hogan getting a push at this stage in his career.

[Guest razazteca]

Should smart fans who understand that making money is the ultimate goal of wrestling be so overly concerned with workrate?

Making money is the goal of every business, so if workrate is not a factor at putting "butts in the seats" than what should be?

 

Is it finally time to retire the terms "face" and "heel" in wrestlespeak

good vs evil has always been the main story and will forever be, but its hard finding the right people to play the parts.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

I understand fully that making money and appeasing mainstream fans is the ultimate goal of wrestling.  I just disagree with how its done, its so by the numbers, there is no doubt a way to please everyone, just without competition there is no reason for McMahon and crew to waste the time finding it.  They stick with what works, e.g. Stephanie, Vince bad, and build a program around that, even if its been done a million times before, because it still appeases the mainstream fans.

 

As for the "gray line" between heels and faces, I agree fully.  I hate The Rock, he's a prime asshole in his mannerisms, speaking, and actions, and the only difference between him and a heel is that he gets cheered and heels don't.  This can also be applied to failed/aborted/last-second turns, such as HHH's face turn, its always the same essential character, just with the one thing that works changed for the mainstream fans (HHH ditch Stephanie.  Stephanie bad.  Cheer for HHH now!).  Is there something wrong with this? Yes, it's just more laziness, and unfortunately laziness we will have to put up with, for at least a little while.

 

Does this mean they should eliminate faces and heels? Never! That's the basic foundation of all character, and is vital to guys in the midcard, who can't always get away with being "shaded gray".  Plus, it gives a chance for smarks to look for something in the program beyond just workrate in matches, which will likely not improve, at least for a long while, because it has no reason to.  Likewise, "shades of gray" main-eventers have no reason to develop character because they will get cheered for one or two basic things, no matter how well-developed their character is (e.g. Undertaker tries pretty hard to be a real heel but since he was always a "bad-ass shades of gray" face in the first place, the mainstream fans don't pick up on it until he does something obvious like bash a mega-face like The Rock or Flair).

 

In my opinion, mega-faces, especially since they are all "bad ass shades of gray", are the root of all that is laziness and evil, but since thats what the mainstream fans are used to, its what we have to deal with.  Forget about the mega-faces, let them do whatever, but don't ruin it for the mid and undercard, where being a face or heel really matters; this, along with their working of oftentimes beter matches, is what makes them worth watching so much more than mega-faces.

 

Plus, forget Hogan.  He is the most extreme example of the lazy mega-face.  How he did it I'll never know, I'd kill to figure out, but it's been like that for as long as I remember, even though most of that remembering was from "the outside" before I watched wrestling.  I guess that proves how mega his face was though, since even non-wrestling fans knew his name.  What heel or other type of wrestling character can you say that for, with the possible exception of Jake "The Snake" Roberts?