Final Fantasy VII

[The Man in Blak 0]

Yeah and FF I, II, III, V and VI is like that too. Except in VI they have abilities they can use at any time, unlike VII where they're limit breaks. So how does that make VII "dumbed down" when they're all empty slots in all the FF games except IV? FF IV is the only one that has set character classes and that is certainly not a deep game.

The combat is dumbed down because there are no strategies for winning battles, other than Materia switching. Everything is so disgustingly homogeneous with characters trading around skills with no consequence (Limit Breaks, which have no consistent effect on battles, don't count - sorry) and - of course - all characters can uncork unbalanced summon spells that torch everything. Hell, even the much-disputed Final Fantasy VI had the courtesy to give everybody a specific skill (Sabin's Blitz, Cyan's SwordTech).

 

At least with the Job system in FF3 and FF5, you find yourself dealing with advantages and disadvantages involved with switching classes. Final Fantasy VII essentially lets you juggle around Materia with impunity. Final Fantasy I isn't like that - you can't slap Fire3 on a Fighter, nor can you throw Excalibur on your White Mage. Final Fantasy IV and IX had classes. Even Final Fantasy X implemented some class-based balance with the different paths of the sphere grid. Which leaves the nearly unplayable FFII and the Junction System of FFVIII as your closest competitors.

 

No character-specific strategy is necessary or even emphasized. And, with a few choice summon spells, no strategy is really needed to make it through the game. And that was the intention of Square, who was unabashedly catering to the mainstream audience with Final Fantasy VII. The battle system was a means to an end, a sad formality between plot points, rather than the primary gameplay component - before FFVII, the words "interactive movie" had never entered the bitter hardcore gamer's vocabulary.

 

For all of these reasons, Final Fantasy VII is "dumbed down", in comparison to other entries in the series.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

FFII is not unplayable. And aside from a different system of level building, it still is similar to the other games. You build up magic, your strength goes down, and vice-versa.

[Damaramu 0]

I'll say it again. With the exception of X I've been able to blow through every FF game since VII. Yet I couldn't blow through the older ones. Coincedence? No...they've made them easier for morons that can't take a decent challenge. Otherwise you'll have stupid kids going "It's to hard! I have to think! I don't want to play this stupid game!"

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Wait, FFVI is "much-disputed"? If there's one Square game I've seen both hardcore RPG fans and casual fans who gave it a shot embrace, it's FFVI.

 

I seriously need to bust out the SNES and play it over winter break. Been way too long.

[Anya 0]

You are seriously overhyping Summons in FF VII. Besides KOTR none of them all are that over powered, they take a ton of MP and can only be used a couple of times without tons and tons of leveling. I don't know of anyone who plays FF VII by abusing summons. Besides KOTR Ultima in FF VI is FAR more overpowered than any Summon spell in FF VII.

 

 

I am still not seeing what "strategy" is missing. How is letting you decide who gets what any less deep than having it be set? Just saying "there is no strategies for winning battles" means nothing. What are the strategies for winning battles in FF IV or VI that are missing in VII?

 

 

Like look at FF IV. Cecil is ALWAYS a fighter. Rosa is ALWAYS a mage. In every battle Cecil will attack and Rosa will support the party. In VII you must decide. You can make it so Cloud is always a fighter and Cait Sith is always the support. You can make it so both have some support skills and fighting skills. How is this less deep? It sounds more complicated...

 

 

Damaramu, we're talking about game depth, not difficulty. Besides, FF VII wasn't the first to be easy. I would hope even the most hardcore fan would admit that VI was extremely easy.

[The Man in Blak 0]

Wait, FFVI is "much-disputed"? If there's one Square game I've seen both hardcore RPG fans and casual fans who gave it a shot embrace, it's FFVI.

It all depends on who you're talking to (www.gameforms.com). In fact, revisionist game critics (such as the peeps who threw together IGN's Top 100 Games list) have placed Final Fantasy IV on the pedestal as the "Best Final Fantasy."

 

FFII is not unplayable. And aside from a different system of level building, it still is similar to the other games. You build up magic, your strength goes down, and vice-versa.

 

In FFII, to gain HP, you have to let yourself get smacked around a lot. To help build up your hit%, you've got to miss attacks. To build up MP, you've got to burn up MP casting spells.

 

And, while it all seems to make realistic sense on paper ("That which does not kill me makes me stronger, etc etc"), it doesn't quite work in execution and, most of the time I spent playing the game, I was just gritting my teeth when it came to leveling up. It's not necessarily unplayable, but it's definitely the least amount of fun I've had building a character in a FF game.

[Damaramu 0]

You are seriously overhyping Summons in FF VII. Besides KOTR none of them all are that over powered, they take a ton of MP and can only be used a couple of times without tons and tons of leveling. I don't know of anyone who plays FF VII by abusing summons. Besides KOTR Ultima in FF VI is FAR more overpowered than any Summon spell in FF VII.

 

 

I am still not seeing what "strategy" is missing. How is letting you decide who gets what any less deep than having it be set? Just saying "there is no strategies for winning battles" means nothing. What are the strategies for winning battles in FF IV or VI that are missing in VII?

 

 

Like look at FF IV. Cecil is ALWAYS a fighter. Rosa is ALWAYS a mage. In every battle Cecil will attack and Rosa will support the party. In VII you must decide. You can make it so Cloud is always a fighter and Cait Sith is always the support. You can make it so both have some support skills and fighting skills. How is this less deep? It sounds more complicated...

 

 

Damaramu, we're talking about game depth, not difficulty. Besides, FF VII wasn't the first to be easy. I would hope even the most hardcore fan would admit that VI was extremely easy.

The way the party got seperated and you had to keep track of building everyone so that they were prepared for Kefka's tower automatically makes it more difficult than FFVII.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

And I would say that on the depth level....a good game that is more difficult has more depth than a good game that is incredibley easy.

Notice I said good game so you can't pull out "What if you play something with horrible gameplay that makes you pull your hair out?"

[Slayer 0]

Damn, Man in Black is hitting it on all cylinders. I don't think I need to make any more points with him around...

 

...guess it's back to wisecrackin' for me

[Anya 0]

All I did in Kefka's Tower was Ultima.

[Damaramu 0]

All I did in Kefka's Tower was Ultima.

Good for you.

All I did in FFVII was KOTR.

Your point?

FFVI was still harder.

[Anya 0]

KOTR is a LOT harder to get than Ultima.

[Slayer 0]

KOTR is a LOT harder to get than Ultima.

Getting Ragnarok Esper and leveling Ultima up > Making Chocobos hump

[Damaramu 0]

KOTR is a LOT harder to get than Ultima.

Getting Ragnarok Esper and leveling Ultima up > Making Chocobos hump

You sound like Sakura in that post.

[Anya 0]

No way, Chocobo breeding is obnoxious. Leveling up Ultima is easy on Dino island.

 

Plus VI has Vanish/Doom, which is ridiculously overpowered.

[Slayer 0]

KOTR is a LOT harder to get than Ultima.

Getting Ragnarok Esper and leveling Ultima up > Making Chocobos hump

You sound like Sakura in that post.

That hurt

[LaParkaMarka 0]

I think Ragnarok esper is much easier to find, though...you can stumble upon it without a guide or whatever. I did my first time through.

 

The only reason to breed Chocobos in VII though is to get KOTR. Chances are you didn't know about it until you heard from a friend or found out from an FAQ or something.

 

With that being said, KOTR is way more overpowered than Ultima. It's been a while since I've played FFVI, but I'm pretty sure you can't just blast off an ultima or two and kill off the end boss.

[Damaramu 0]

KOTR is a LOT harder to get than Ultima.

Getting Ragnarok Esper and leveling Ultima up > Making Chocobos hump

You sound like Sakura in that post.

That hurt

Well when you post

Opinion and I'm right your wrong>This sucks because I say so.

Then it is Sakura-esque.

[Jingus 0]

My short views on FFVII: decent game, would've been tons more fun if they'd given you an option to skip through the summoning FMVs (KOTR is cool the first thousand times I saw it, but it gets old eventually). And a real ending would've helped. Overall, I see FFVII more as a daring technological experiment than a solid game. But still, a laudable effort.

 

But it ain't no VI or X.

[Anya 0]

You don't have to breed Chocobos to get KOTR. You could get a Gold Chocobo from beating Ruby Weapon and get it there. You could also beat Emerald Weapon and use it via Master Summon.

 

 

KOTR is more powerful than Ultima, but both make the end really easy. Really though all the modern FF's allow you to get stuff that make the end really easy. In FFX you can beat the final boss with a couple of normal attacks.

[Slayer 0]

Well when you post

Opinion and I'm right your wrong>This sucks because I say so.

Then it is Sakura-esque.

Let's see what our judge has to say about this

 

Sakura?

[Damaramu 0]

Well when you post

Opinion and I'm right your wrong>This sucks because I say so.

Then it is Sakura-esque.

Let's see what our judge has to say about this

 

Sakura?

Don't ask her. She'll respond with something like

Sakura>Angelslayer.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

I think the worst part is, it would've been SO EASY to use the materia system, while still keeping characters more individual.

 

Like, say that Cloud has a 25% bonus while using one type of materia, but -25% when using another. Or hell, make it so that certain weapons had the same effect.

 

That way, there'd be more strategy, not just picking the characters you thought looked coolest to fight with. You'd have to take into account that this sword of Cloud's might have really strong attack, but be poor at using materia, that kinda thing.

[The Man in Blak 0]

You are seriously overhyping Summons in FF VII. Besides KOTR none of them all are that over powered, they take a ton of MP and can only be used a couple of times without tons and tons of leveling. I don't know of anyone who plays FF VII by abusing summons. Besides KOTR Ultima in FF VI is FAR more overpowered than any Summon spell in FF VII.

Am I? Knights of the Round can basically kill the last boss of the game in one hit, but let's just push it aside. The Bahamut series of summons all throw down decent non-elemental damage, and other summon materia like Alexander and Odin aren't exactly sneeze-worthy.

 

And I'll cover the Ultima issue here in a second.

 

I am still not seeing what "strategy" is missing. How is letting you decide who gets what any less deep than having it be set? Just saying "there is no strategies for winning battles" means nothing. What are the strategies for winning battles in FF IV or VI that are missing in VII?

 

There's the Fanatic's Tower in FFVI, where you can only use magic and you have to rely on some Reflect trickery to even hit some of the later bosses. Just surviving in the final stages of FFIV requires some ingenuity, especially when random battles essentially become mini-boss battles in the later levels. In both games, your success in battles is much more dependent upon your equipment and level-building of the characters, rather than keeping track of which under-developed materia has which faceless materia.

 

Like look at FF IV. Cecil is ALWAYS a fighter. Rosa is ALWAYS a mage. In every battle Cecil will attack and Rosa will support the party. In VII you must decide. You can make it so Cloud is always a fighter and Cait Sith is always the support. You can make it so both have some support skills and fighting skills.

 

Or you can load everybody up with materia and bomb everybody out of the water. Character-specific issues like Equipment become unimportant once you've built up the proper materia. There is no strategy in determining who gets the ultra-boosted Cure materia - the fact that it's in the battle (and it can go to anybody) doesn't add any "complexity." It makes your job a whole lot easier because you don't have to think about where you put it.

 

I would hope even the most hardcore fan would admit that VI was extremely easy.

 

Sure, but let's get a grip on the Ultima thing for a second. The big detracting force is "OMG Ultimaz Everywhar~!", but there are only two sources to learn Ultima from, and that's the Paladin Shield (which you had to go to RIDICULOUS lengths to uncurse) and Ragnarok. Both of these teach Ultima at x1. Now, that means that you're going to be power-building people for quite a while to get them Ultima - this isn't an immediate gain for the character. (as opposed to giving somebody a leveled-up Materia). And, to really break Ultima, you've got to get the Economizer, so that it only costs one MP. Contrast this with the fun-fun-fun exercise of breeding a gold chocobo so that you can go to the island to grab the game-breaking Knights of the Round materia, which takes about half of the time.

 

Both games are easy - it's just considerably easier to break Final Fantasy VII.

[Slayer 0]

[Damaramu 0]

Ouch Man in Blak. I'm on your side and even I shed a tear of pain after reading that.

[Highland 0]

I just use the Atma weapon as an item on Kefka to kill him. Meh.

[AndrewTS 0]

TMiB is doing enough old-vs.-new-school FF discussion to carry the whole damn thread, and render a topic I was considering starting a pointless exercise (which is good and all). Just one minor point...

 

before FFVII, the words "interactive movie" had never entered the bitter hardcore gamer's vocabulary.

 

Ask any reader of Diehard Gamefan circa mid-90s. The Sega CD. Night Cr--Trap. Digital Pictures. Sewer Shark. Power Rangers CD. Tomcat Alley. Loadstar. Who Shot Johnny Rock?. Mad Dog McGree. Jurassic Park.

 

Except for the Lunars, Snatcher, Monkey Island, and a few other oddball titles that worked, most of the attempts to make "interactive movies" were so bad they make Xenosaga look like an actual game.

 

Of course, there was the 3DO which had tons of similar "games." Although honestly, who would buy one except someone with tons of cash to blow and/or REALLY wanted to play the console's versions of Super SF2 Turbo or Samurai Shodown. Say--do you/did you have a 3DO, Sakura?

[chaosrage 0]

I'm not a big fan of VI's gameplay either, but at least Locke stealing, and Sabin's blitzs, and Cyan's swordtechs, and Strago's lore set them all apart from each other.

You can make VII like that too, it's just up to you who has the steal materia, who has enemy skill and who has slash-all or whatever.

 

That's the problem. Every single character can do everything. In FF6, you have to make do with what you have. You can't just laugh and switch the skills to whoever you want.

 

I don't see how making everyone a blank slate and leaving it up to the player is "dumbed down". If anything isn't that deeper and more strategic?

 

You'd think so, but more options really take away from the strategy because it doesn't limit you as much. Since every character can do EVERYTHING you want them to do, it doesn't take as much effort to stay alive. It lets you turn them into gods.

 

FF4 leaves you with the disadvantage of not everyone being able to cure and not everyone being able to attack. Each character has strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes you won't even have a white mage or black mage in your party. Or they'll run out of MP or die and then you'll be screwed. One character will have to use a life potion if you have any and another will have to use a cure potion if you have any and maybe another. Then you have to think about if you should even use a turn to use life since they might kill her as soon as she comes back when you could be curing somebody else or attacking. For FF6/FF7, all you do is use life2 with anybody. If a monster is weak against fire, well use Fire for everybody! You don't have to worry about silly things like fire and ice weapons.

 

Like someone else said, they could have easily made it where Barret's cure magic was much less effective than Aeris's, and Barret could have had strong weapon skills that Aeris would've been able to use. And someone could have had strong attack magic that no one else could use. Everyone shouldn't be able to use the best spells. Just so they would all be different and useful. It doesn't make a tiny bit of difference if you stick with the same three characters the entire game because they're all identical. Where's the strategy in that?

[Jer 0]

I disagree that FF7 is easier to break than FF6. Ultima's not even the strongest thing in FF6. Atma Weapon + Illumina + Genji Glove + Offering will have Terra or Celes doing 70000 damage per hit at high level. One attack will kill *anything in the game*, Kefka, Brachiosaurs, whatever. Otoh, at least in FF7 there are the weapons, which actually take some strategy to beat, unlike anything in FF6. KotR against Emerald or Ruby is much weaker than a fully equipped Terra or Celes against anything in FF6.

 

FF6 is great and all, but it's easy as hell, and there's no incentives to get strong, because there's nothing harder in the game than a brachiosaur, which still falls easily to one hit from Terra or Celes. FF7's mandatory stuff is no harder than FF6's (but it's not easier either, Seraph Sephiroth is harder than Kefka unless you have KotR, which takes hours and a FAQ to get). FF7's optional stuff, though, is way beyond anything in FF6 and gives you incentive to play after you beat it.

[Jingus 0]

Ultima's not even the strongest thing in FF6. Atma Weapon + Illumina + Genji Glove + Offering will have Terra or Celes doing 70000 damage per hit at high level. One attack will kill *anything in the game*, Kefka, Brachiosaurs, whatever.

Thing is, the Illumina sword is pretty damn hard to get (you have to get Ragnarok made into a sword, bet it at the Coliseum, and then win the fight to get Illumina) and getting Offering isn't like taking candy from a baby (plenty of people would've never learned about the Buried Castle without their FAQs). And to get the Ragnarok sword, you have to pretty much give up the chance of ever learning Ultima, unless of course you've got a spare month or two to uncurse the Paladin's Shield. And finally, either Terra or Celes has to be at a relatively high level to get anything decent out of the Atma Weapon.

 

I'm not saying those are harder to get than a gold chocobo, cuz they're not, but it's far from easy to get the perfect Atma/Illumina/Genji/Offering combo.