Super J Cup 2004

[Guest Peter_Griffin]

Any news on the guys that are performing at the show ?

[Guest trickstyle_360]

Garuda from WMF was the first guy announced for the tournament.

[deancoles 0]

Liger will definitely be in it as well.

[Guest ligerbomb03]

Jushin Liger will be a non-tournament participant in the event.

[Guest NANIWA*]

Super J-Cup 2004 Tournament Participants:

Garuda-WMF

Wataru Inoue-NJPW

Taichi Ishikari-AJPW

Takehiro Murahama-Osaka Pro{My Favorite To Win The Tournament!}

 

Non-Tournament Participants:

Jushin Thunder Liger-NJPW

Heat-NJPW

Super Delfin-Osaka Pro

Jinsei Shinzaki-Michinoku Pro

 

That's all that Osaka has announced so far for the tournament...

 

FYI: The Super J-Cup Tournament is going to be made up of wrestlers with 5 or less years of Pro-Wrestling experience. Thus making most of the bigger names and legends disqualified from entering the tournament...

 

Credit:Stuart

[Guest Max Peter David]

While we're on the subject of Juniors, who's Juniors are better nowadays, NOAH or NJPW?

[Guest ligerbomb03]

I am not an expert, but I am going to say New Japan has the better junior heavyweights.

[Guest NANIWA*]

I am not an expert, but I am going to say New Japan has the better junior heavyweights.

 

Sorry, but NOAH's Juniors win by a landslide this year. Misawa & Co. have done just a great job of really establishing their Jr. Division as one of the tops in the world. Just look at this roster...

 

Naomichi Marufuji-The future "Ace" of Jr. wrestling in Japan. If my predictions come true, he will assume the role officially at NOAH's April Dome show when he beats Liger and regains the GHC Jr, Heavyweight Title

Yoshinobu Kanemaru-My personal favorite NOAH Junior. Kanemaru has just been the complete package this year when coming to ****+ star matches! He just seems to be the glue that holds everything together in each of his many Super Hot Tag Matcges he's had this year.

KENTA-KENTA has made almost everyone into huge fan boys this year. He kicked off the year with a great showing along side Kotaro Suzuki in the Differ cup, and followed that up with his All-Star run with Marufuji as GHC Jr. Tag Champs. With a string of off the chart **** star matches.

Tsuyoshi Kikuchi-Kikuchi has been on fire sense his IWGP Jr. Tag Title reign with Kanemaru last year, which ended in 2003 in a off the charts match with New Japan's Kanemoto & Liger. He debut in 88, and most people are saying he's just now having some of the best matches of his career.

Makoto Hashi-Improved may not be a good enough word for Hashi this year. This guy has blossomed into a very nice "Power" style jr. heavyweight, much like Takaiwa in Z-1. You know your doing something right when the fans start chanting "Hashi" in a GHC Jr. Tag Match, and it's about as loud as when they chanted "Kobashi" during the Nagata/Kobashi GHC Title Main Event a few months ago.

Takashi Sugiura- Sugiura may be the least talented of the NOAH Jr.'s at this point, but considering his competition. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Takashi has really improved sense his stint in The Best Of The Super Jr. earlier this year. With a great match featuring himself and Liger. Liger may have carried him through the match, but Takashi still played his underdog role perfectly. And let’s not forget that this guy has only 3 years of pro-wrestling experience!

Kotaro Suzuki-Already one of the top high-flyers in Japan, Suzuki has only gotten better sense his debut in 2001. He really showed his future potential while participating in the Differ Cup earlier this year, when he and KENTA has great matches with the likes of MIKAMI/KUDO & Great Takeru/Kappa Kozou.

 

Now I'm not saying that NJPW Junior's are terrible or anything. As the likes of Liger & Co. have had some tremendous matches this year. But when you have the likes of people that have hurt the division:

 

Gedo-Boring

Jado-Boring

Heat-Shell Of Tanaka

Masahito Kakihara-Bombed

Masayuki Naruse-Stalled

 

You really can't make the comparison to NOAH, whose entire division has been off the charts this year. Hell, even Stuart has admitted recently that NOAH’s Jr.’s are much more interesting and fun this year then New Japan’s. So that should tell you something…

[Guest trickstyle_360]

NJPW's juniors aren't as good so great now, due to the staleness of NJPW. NOAH's juniors are so much more exciting, and put on better matches.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Stuart posted the updated card:

 

1. Osaka Pro Tag Team Title: Billy Ken Kid & Tigers Mask © vs. TBA

2. Osaka Pro World's #1 Title match

3. Super J Cup - Round 1: Naomichi Marufuji or KENTA  vs. Jun Kasai

4. Super J Cup - Round 1: Garuda  vs. Osaka Pro wrestler

5. Super J Cup - Round 1: Wataru Inoue  vs. Winner of Kazuya Yuasa/Macho Pump

6. Super J Cup - Round 1: Takehiro Murahama vs. Taichi Ishikari

7. Super J Cup - Semi Final: Winner of NOAH/Kasai vs. Winner of Garuda/Osaka Pro

8. Super J Cup - Semi Final: Winner of Wataru/Michinoku Pro vs. Winner of Murahama/Ishikari

9. Super J Cup - Final:

 

This looks really dissapointing. New Japan couldn't send someone higher ranked than Inoue? Liger has even worked Osaka shows before. M Pro couldn't send Fujita or Hidaka? Hell, Ishikari is representing AJPW, and I've never even heard of him.

 

Well, at least KENTA might be participating now. I still don't want to see it, but that could be a plus.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

The weakest J Cup to date.....BY FAR.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

For all the negativity the line up's not any worse than it was in 2000 I don't think, certainly it looks like the matches will be allowed more time to gel

 

There's the possibility of a KENTA/Murahama final (likley I think) which could be ace, and with Wataru on Murahama's path to the final it shouldn't be bad

 

Plus there's plenty of other stuff on the card to take the pressure off the youngsters

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

For all the negativity the line up's not any worse than it was in 2000 I don't think, certainly it looks like the matches will be allowed more time to gel

Really? I liked 2000 even though it was weaker than say 94,95,96. They had some good matchups and I enjoyed the heel Liger as well. Plus with guys like CIMA, Curry Man, Liger, and Sasuke I just thought the field was just plain stronger overall.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

For all the negativity the line up's not any worse than it was in 2000 I don't think,

Not at all. 2000 at least had some fairly credible participants. Does this year's version have an entrant with half the credibility that Liger had in 2000? I like Inoue, but to have him as the only New Japan entrant on the card is a big dissapointment. In 2000, they sent both their top junior in Liger and a young lion in Makabe. This year, we're stuck with just the young lion. They could at least send Tiger Mask or Takemura or anyone to ballance that out.

 

Michinoku Pro hosted it in 2000, so naturally they're going to have less entrants this year, but they can do better than either Macho Pump or Kazuo Yuasa. They have plenty of higher ranked juniors who could work the tourney. Like I said, someone like Hidaka or Fujita would be fine.

 

And AJPW has to have someone higher ranked than Ishikari. Is Kaz Hiyashi still around?

 

certainly it looks like the matches will be allowed more time to gel.

 

How do you figure that?

 

There's the possibility of a KENTA/Murahama final (likley I think) which could be ace, and with Wataru on Murahama's path to the final it shouldn't be bad.

 

But how much does a win over Murahama do for KENTA, or vice versa? In 2000, there was least the possibility of someone going over Liger and getting the big rub. There's no possibility for that here, because few of the entrants are even relevant in their respective promotions.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Well, it seems from reading the posts in this thread that not many people are thrilled with this lineup. So how about this. How would you set it up if you could? Who would be the best to be used in the J-Cup and which group would benefit the most by entering?

[Guest Black Tiger]

It's one of those ideas that are good in theory and less than thrilling in execution. The idea is supposed to be guys with five or less years of experience, which is nice because it'll give some rub to the winner, but not as good a rub as if they'd gone over someone with credibility.

 

I also liked the 2000 one quite a bit, the Teioh vs Usuda match was the match that convinced me to checkout BattlArts which is my favorite Puro indy.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Really? I liked 2000 even though it was weaker than say 94,95,96. They had some good matchups and I enjoyed the heel Liger as well. Plus with guys like CIMA, Curry Man, Liger, and Sasuke I just thought the field was just plain stronger overall.

 

Well to be fair on paper it was, but you can only really judge these things by who brings their A-game on the night, Liger brought his, noone else seemed to

 

Does this year's version have an entrant with half the credibility that Liger had in 2000? I like Inoue, but to have him as the only New Japan entrant on the card is a big dissapointment. In 2000, they sent both their top junior in Liger and a young lion in Makabe. This year, we're stuck with just the young lion. They could at least send Tiger Mask or Takemura or anyone to ballance that out.

 

It'll be because either Murahama or the NOAH entrant will win, Wataru should fit the bill for them nicley, he's not too high profile when he doesn't win, is name enough for them to claim serious involvement and is a good enough worker to put on a good showing for them

 

and of course they were limited by Delfin's experience rule too otherwise they might well have sent Sammy

 

But I like Wataru a lot, I was expecting the 1/02 NOAH tag to be his breakout performance but that didn't seem to happen so I'm hoping he puts in a great performance here and I think he's going to

 

and credibility wise, KENTA isn't as credible as Liger but he's not far off being the worker Liger was in 2000

 

And AJPW has to have someone higher ranked than Ishikari. Is Kaz Hiyashi still around?

 

Yeah he worked the ROH show, too experienced though :\

 

How do you figure that?

 

There's only 8 particpants instead of the usual 16

 

But how much does a win over Murahama do for KENTA, or vice versa? In 2000, there was least the possibility of someone going over Liger and getting the big rub. There's no possibility for that here, because few of the entrants are even relevant in their respective promotions.

 

Well Murahama did team with Liger and if KENTA is going to feud with Liger over the GHC belt (please lord!) then that could be worked in somewhere I'm sure.

 

I guess I'm seeing this as more a WWF style KOTR tourney, there are no giant names involved but if there were they'd probably have wanted victory, it should announce the next big names though

 

I'd have liked to see Liger give KENTA the rub too but given he's going to have to job the GHC belt to a NOAH lion at some stage I think we need to factor in how much jobbing he wants to be doing for another promotions juniors too

 

 

 

I'm still sticking with it being good, I'd imagine it will be more along the lines of the mid 90's events (with less talented workers) with noone looking bored because they are going out early as everyone ought to be out to prove themselves as the best young worker in the business

 

and that can't be a bad thing can it?

[Guest NANIWA*]

More people announced to participate in the non-tournnament portion of the Super J Cup. Here is what the actual card is looking like at this moment...

 

SPECIAL:Non-Tournament Participants:

 

- Tomohiro Ishii (World Japan)

- MEN's Teioh (Big Japan)

- MIKAMI (DDT)

- Kintaro Kanemura (WEW/Fuyuki-gun)

- Apple Miyuki (Kaientai Dojo)

- Azteca (KAGEKI)

-Jushin Thunder Liger(NJPW)

-Super Delfin(Osaka)

-Jinsei Shinzaki(M-Pro)

-Ofune(Kaientai Dojo)

 

SPECIAL:Non-Tournament Matches Confirmed:

 

1. Osaka Pro Tag Team Title: Billy Ken Kid & Tigers Mask © vs. TBA

2. Osaka Pro World's #1 Title: match

 

2004 Super J Cup:

 

3. Super J Cup - Round 1: Naomichi Marufuji or KENTA vs. Jun Kasai

4. Super J Cup - Round 1: Garuda vs. Osaka Pro wrestler

5. Super J Cup - Round 1: Wataru Inoue vs. Winner of Kazuya Yuasa/Macho Pump

6. Super J Cup - Round 1: Takehiro Murahama vs. Taichi Ishikari

7. Super J Cup - Semi Final: Winner of NOAH/Kasai vs. Winner of Garuda/Osaka Pro

8. Super J Cup - Semi Final: Winner of Wataru/Michinoku Pro vs. Winner of Murahama/Ishikari

9. Super J Cup - Final:

 

Credit: Stuart

Edited January 10, 2004 by NANIWA*

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Really? I liked 2000 even though it was weaker than say 94,95,96. They had some good matchups and I enjoyed the heel Liger as well. Plus with guys like CIMA, Curry Man, Liger, and Sasuke I just thought the field was just plain stronger overall.

 

Well to be fair on paper it was, but you can only really judge these things by who brings their A-game on the night, Liger brought his, noone else seemed to

Nah, Teioh brought plenty to the table that night, having a very good match with Usuda (who carried his end, too) and MENS actually looked like the better worker next to Liger in their quarterfinal match. CIMA was bringing his A-game during all four of his matches, working fun (albiet short) matches with Marvin, Onryu, and Sano, on top of the final with Liger.

 

Come to think of it, I don't think Liger did bring his A-game that night, as his selling of the arm through out the tournament was really inconsistant, which is not what you would expect from him. He had the good matches with Tiger Mask and CIMA, but overall I don't think he was the best performer that night.

It'll be because either Murahama or the NOAH entrant will win, Wataru should fit the bill for them nicley, he's not too high profile when he doesn't win, is name enough for them to claim serious involvement and is a good enough worker to put on a good showing for them

Wataru is a good pick for this tournament, but the experience rule limits them from sending another more credible entrant like they did in 2000, which hurts the tournament.

But I like Wataru a lot, I was expecting the 1/02 NOAH tag to be his breakout performance but that didn't seem to happen so I'm hoping he puts in a great performance here and I think he's going to.

That would be nice, especially if he got to face KENTA.

and credibility wise, KENTA isn't as credible as Liger but he's not far off being the worker Liger was in 2000

I haven't seen enough 2000 Liger or enough current KENTA to say whether or not it's true, but it seems possible.

There's only 8 particpants instead of the usual 16

That should give them more time, which seemed to be a problem in 2000.

But how much does a win over Murahama do for KENTA, or vice versa? In 2000, there was least the possibility of someone going over Liger and getting the big rub. There's no possibility for that here, because few of the entrants are even relevant in their respective promotions.

Well Murahama did team with Liger and if KENTA is going to feud with Liger over the GHC belt (please lord!) then that could be worked in somewhere I'm sure.

But if KENTA or Marufuji is going to feud with Liger, wouldn't this be the ideal place to kick it off? Wouldn't it also be the ideal place to continue NJPW's feud with Osaka Pro, which Liger has always been the focus of?

 

I guess I'm seeing this as more a WWF style KOTR tourney, there are no giant names involved but if there were they'd probably have wanted victory, it should announce the next big names though

 

But having the names in there at least creates the opportunity to make new stars by having them go over the established ones. How does a win over Inoue or Murahama announce someone as the next big star?

 

I'd have liked to see Liger give KENTA the rub too but given he's going to have to job the GHC belt to a NOAH lion at some stage I think we need to factor in how much jobbing he wants to be doing for another promotions juniors too

 

If he were to put over KENTA or Marufuji in the finals, I'm sure they would book a re-match for the GHC and have Liger avenge the loss. Losing in the finals of a tournament isn't exactly a clean loss, either, so I don't think Liger would mind. He's shown a willingness to put over others to make new stars through out his career, aside from 2000 where he was doing the Junior Killer gymick and wouldn't put anyone over at all.

 

I'm still sticking with it being good, I'd imagine it will be more along the lines of the mid 90's events (with less talented workers) with noone looking bored because they are going out early as everyone ought to be out to prove themselves as the best young worker in the business

 

and that can't be a bad thing can it?

In 2000, did TM look borred working with Liger? Did Hayashi looked borred against Sasuke? I'd say they both tried pretty hard to make a good showing and, for the most part, succeeded. Would they have been as fired up if they'd faced each other? Maybe, but I think the theme of young wrestlers getting a chance to compete with older, established wrestlers fit the spirit of the mid ninties events more than the current set-up.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Nah, Teioh brought plenty to the table that night, having a very good match with Usuda (who carried his end, too) and MENS actually looked like the better worker next to Liger in their quarterfinal match. CIMA was bringing his A-game during all four of his matches, working fun (albiet short) matches with Marvin, Onryu, and Sano, on top of the final with Liger.

 

Come to think of it, I don't think Liger did bring his A-game that night, as his selling of the arm through out the tournament was really inconsistant, which is not what you would expect from him. He had the good matches with Tiger Mask and CIMA, but overall I don't think he was the best performer that night.

 

I might need to go over it again seeing as it's been a while since I last watched it but then nothing on the tape really made me want to dig it out again, I'm a little hazy on the Teioh matches but yeah I do think he put in a good showing so I'll go with you on that, I don't remember CIMA doing much more than fairly generic CIMA stuff until the final where he mixed things up a bit more though, On the basis of the matches (I thought the CIMA and TM matches were the best on the card fairly comfortably) it's hard for me to go with someone else

 

Wataru is a good pick for this tournament, but the experience rule limits them from sending another more credible entrant like they did in 2000, which hurts the tournament.

 

Agreed, at least in terms of match quality

 

But if KENTA or Marufuji is going to feud with Liger, wouldn't this be the ideal place to kick it off? Wouldn't it also be the ideal place to continue NJPW's feud with Osaka Pro, which Liger has always been the focus of?

 

Well Liger's on the card so hopefully they book him with an Opro worker, perhaps a match with Delfin for old times sake (lord knows I'd mark if he came out in his reverse Liger suit again) and him being on the card is a chance for him to second Wataru too, they could do something similar to the 01/02 post match NOAH confrontation (although I don't think the brackets allow for it until the final so it may be a moot point) where KENTA goes over Wataru and gets rushed by Liger who's all pissed off he's beaten his boy and challenges him to a future match

 

But having the names in there at least creates the opportunity to make new stars by having them go over the established ones. How does a win over Inoue or Murahama announce someone as the next big star?

 

It announces them as the best of a generation, which could push him into a match with grumpy old Liger and then he goes over, I'd argue that booking his rise over a period of time rather than as a one night shock would give it more value

 

In 2000, did TM look borred working with Liger? Did Hayashi looked borred against Sasuke? I'd say they both tried pretty hard to make a good showing and, for the most part, succeeded. Would they have been as fired up if they'd faced each other? Maybe, but I think the theme of young wrestlers getting a chance to compete with older, established wrestlers fit the spirit of the mid ninties events more than the current set-up.

 

Well maybe not bored as such, but the first round matches were so short it was difficult to look bored or good or anything else, they didn't really have time to get anything in, some tried (the guys you mentioned), some didn't (Fuji, Sasuke the great etc)

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I might need to go over it again seeing as it's been a while since I last watched it but then nothing on the tape really made me want to dig it out again, I'm a little hazy on the Teioh matches but yeah I do think he put in a good showing so I'll go with you on that, I don't remember CIMA doing much more than fairly generic CIMA stuff until the final where he mixed things up a bit more though,

I thought the match with Marvin was fun in a short, spotty way; same for the Onryo match. I thought CIMA did a good job dominating them while allowing them to get in their spots, though more time would have been nice. The match with Sano wasn't as exciting, but still told a nice story with young punk CIMA getting beaten up by grumpy vet Sano.

On the basis of the matches (I thought the CIMA and TM matches were the best on the card fairly comfortably) it's hard for me to go with someone else

I guess you could put those two at the top for match of the night, (though I thought Teioh/Usuda gave them a run for their money), but I thought CIMA was more consitant than Liger, as Liger didn't give much to Teioh and shat all over Hamada's arm work in their seminfinal match (though Hamada wasn't guiltless in that department, either).

Well Liger's on the card so hopefully they book him with an Opro worker, perhaps a match with Delfin for old times sake (lord knows I'd mark if he came out in his reverse Liger suit again) and him being on the card is a chance for him to second Wataru too, they could do something similar to the 01/02 post match NOAH confrontation (although I don't think the brackets allow for it until the final so it may be a moot point) where KENTA goes over Wataru and gets rushed by Liger who's all pissed off he's beaten his boy and challenges him to a future match

I'd rather see Liger actually facing on of them in a match than doing the post match beat-down, personally.

It announces them as the best of a generation, which could push him into a match with grumpy old Liger and then he goes over, I'd argue that booking his rise over a period of time rather than as a one night shock would give it more value.

If you don't want to go too fast in elevating either Marufuji or KENTA, you have them face Liger in the tourniment and have them lose after pushing him far. If Liger is still as good as people hype him to be, he can give them enough offense to put them over big while still making himself look strong.

Well maybe not bored as such, but the first round matches were so short it was difficult to look bored or good or anything else, they didn't really have time to get anything in, some tried (the guys you mentioned), some didn't (Fuji, Sasuke the great etc)

But didn't that have more to do with the low match time than the workers in the tourniment? If they wanted to, even with only eight participants, they could put together a more compelling tourniment than this one.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Oh I do agree that the talent is there to put out a more mouth watering tournament Ricky (hell imagine Liger,KENTA,Kanemuru,Genki,AKIRA, Milano, Tsubasa and Togo!!) but I'm in Stu Max mode for this, it's not going to be as good as it could have been but I'm still confident the tourney will be a lot of fun and make a star of someone, and if it doesn't the rest of the card will rock anyway

[Guest NANIWA*]

The challengers for BKK & Tigers Mask Osaka Pro Tag Team Titles have been annouced. The Teacher/Student team of TAKA Michinoku & Hi-69 will face the Osaka boys in their second defense of the titles. They won the right when they defeated the team on 1/10, in a non-title match. Updated card below...

 

Osaka Pro "SUPER J CUP 4TH STAGE", 2/21/04

Osaka Castle Hall

 

1. Osaka Pro World's #1 Title match

2. Osaka Pro Tag Team Title: Billy Ken Kid & Tigers Mask © vs. TAKA Michinoku & Hi69

3. Super J Cup - Round 1: Naomichi Marufuji or KENTA vs. Jun Kasai

4. Super J Cup - Round 1: Garuda vs. Osaka Pro wrestler

5. Super J Cup - Round 1: Wataru Inoue vs. Kazuya Yuasa

6. Super J Cup - Round 1: Takehiro Murahama vs. Taichi Ishikari

7. Super J Cup - Semi Final: Winner of NOAH/Kasai vs. Winner of Garuda/Osaka Pro

8. Super J Cup - Semi Final: Winner of Wataru/Yuasa vs. Winner of Murahama/Ishikari

9. [/b]Super J Cup - Final:

 

Credit:Stuart