Part of the reason why raven gets not push?

[Guest]

I heard awhile ago part of the reason the WWF doesnt push Raven is because Kurt Angle doesnt like him...especially after the crucifix anglke in ECW. Were ECW expecting to try to sign Angle that night anyway?

[Guest Ravenbomb]

I think I already know...but what exactly is this 'Crucifix Angle'?

[Guest]

the Crucifix angle was the Sign he gave in ECW,  during the feud between him and Dreamer, Raven was cuffed crucifix style to the Cage  at Heatwave 95, where Dreamer bashed his head in over and over with a chair.

 

Angle has Mcmahon's ear???WTF??? if that was true Undertaker would be wrestling Funaki on Jakked because of his whole Lord of Darkness Angle.

[Guest El Satanico]

Uh that would've been like 6 years ago so i'm pretty sure Angle wasn't being recruited into pro wrestling yet. I didn't know Angle was some die hard religous nut that would freak out over something like Raven being "crucified" that night.

 

Also i can't see WWF deciding to not push Raven just because Angle dislikes him. They may have kept Angle away from Raven feud wise. But if WWF had plans for him he would've been pushed rather or not Angle likes him. If WWF will push Hogan even when AUSTIN says he doesn't like Hogan, then nothing would stop them from pushing a low mid card guy if they had plans for him even if Angle hated him. Hell knowing Vince he would've had Angle and Raven feud to play off the real life heat.

[Guest JAMES900]

That angle was Raven "crucified" tommy dreamer (I think) anyway it got a ton of compalints and Raven had to come out and apologies for it the next week.

[Guest]

He crucified the Sandman way back in the day on a cross like object.

 

ECW lost their TV deal with the Sunshine Network because of it, and Raven had to go out of character to apologize.

 

I doubt Angle has anything to do with Raven not getting a push though.  Raven's not a big dude, and we all know how much Vince doesn't like anyone under 6'5 250 lbs. most of the time.

[Guest Nevermortal]

I thought it was him crucifying Sandman with barbed wire....oh well, maybe I'm thinking of another angle.

[Guest RickyB]

but what exactly is this 'Crucifix Angle'?

 

ECW brought Kurt Angle in to commentate on a match between Taz and someone because he didn't agree with becoming a Pro Wrestler (listen to his commentry on that match... man was he boring then).  Anyway, near the end of the show Raven and Tommy Dreamer (I think) were in some cage and Raven was tied to the cage and a barbed wire halo type-thing was put on Raven's head and Tommy Dreamer beat Raven up with a chair, Kurt Angle supposedly didn't want to be associated with something like that so Paul Heyman apologised to the fans and cut it off the show.

 

That's a very sketchy overview of what happened, but i'm sure that it's mostly right.

[Guest notJames]

I think I already know...but what exactly is this 'Crucifix Angle'?

You use Raven in your avatar and you don't know what the Crucifix angle was? Hang your smark head in shame!  

 

As far as I know, Raven strung up the Sandman (I think) onto a crucifix during their feud over Lori Fullington and Sandman's son. Very risque angle, using a minor, religious imagery, etc. Raven even put a crown of barbed wire on Sandman's head. Public opinion took a turn for the worse, even with many of the ECW faithful, so Heyman had Raven go out and publicly apologized for the incident.

 

Rumour has it that Angle, a Pennsylvania native, was contemplating signing with ECW at some point, but when word got to him about the incident, he said "no way".

 

And the rest is history. Although, it's quite a stretch to think that Angle has the kind of pull to deny Raven a decent push, especially when you have the king of backstage politics, HHH, in the mix.

 

Note to self: learn to type faster.  

[Guest El Satanico]

Oh Angle was being recruited at the time? Well damn i didn't know that.

[Guest Annoyed Grunt]

Edit: Disregard this post.  All my information has been covered elsewhere in this topic.

[Guest Ravenbomb]

Sorry, I've only really been watching wrestling since november '95 and never saw any ECW until they got on TNN. *hangs head in shame then heads to some wrestling tape sites to look for it*

[Guest Nevermortal]

Dammit, this makes me wanna get Best of Raven in ECW, to see his Sandman/Tommy Dreamer feuds.

 

Ok, so the Crucifixion was never aired on TV, but did it make its way on video?

[Guest RickyB]

Ohh...you mean the chairshot heard 'round the world thing. I figured that's what it was

Yep, they used to have it on the opening sequence of one of their shows back in 96-98 if I remember right And yeah it was Raven and Sandman, not Tommy Dreamer and Raven.

 

I'm still sure it was that show which Angle commentated on.  If not then it was a show around that time and after Angle heard about the "Cruisifix" angle he decided to stay out of Wrestling.

[Guest notJames]

Sorry, I've only really been watching wrestling since november '95 and never saw any ECW until they got on TNN. *hangs head in shame*

All is forgiven. Now go rent some ECW DVD's STAT!

 

[Guest RickyB]

Ok, so the Crucifixion was never aired on TV, but did it make its way on video?

I'm not sure, I know that you can find it on Morphious or something like that if you search for "Chairshot heard around the world" or something similer.

[Guest notJames]

Ohh...you mean the chairshot heard 'round the world thing. I figured that's what it was

Yep, they used to have it on the opening sequence of one of their shows back in 96-98 if I remember right And yeah it was Raven and Sandman, not Tommy Dreamer and Raven.

 

I'm still sure it was that show which Angle commentated on.  If not then it was a show around that time and after Angle heard about the "Cruisifix" angle he decided to stay out of Wrestling.

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, or if you have them mixed up, but Raven and Sandman did the crucifixion bit, while Raven was chained to the cage and hit with the chair by Tommy Dreamer (the chairshot 'round the world). The two incidents are unrelated (apart from Raven's  involvement.) In fact, the latter incident is probably where both Tommy and Raven started using the "arms outstretched" sign they use.

 

As for Angle's commentating during a show, I don't know which it would have been, but it's probably the latter.

[Guest RickyB]

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, or if you have them mixed up, but Raven and Sandman did the crucifixion bit, while Raven was chained to the cage and hit with the chair by Tommy Dreamer (the chairshot 'round the world). The two incidents are unrelated (apart from Raven's  involvement.) In fact, the latter incident is probably where both Tommy and Raven started using the "arms outstretched" sign they use.

 

As for Angle's commentating during a show, I don't know which it would have been, but it's probably the latter.

 

I know that the Sandman/Raven cruisifix thing used to be on the opening sequence of one of the ECW shows because I remember Sandman's kid standing there shouting something but you didn't actually see Raven hit Sandman with the chair properly.  And I know there was something connected with Angle not joining ECW because of it.  Angle was disgusted at what happened and Paul Heyman apologised about it.

 

Yeah I got the Chairshot heard round the world thing mixed up.  But everything else is basically right, I think.

[Guest]

What was the chairshot heard roudn the world? Was that the same thing?

 

And I didnt know about Raven coming out and apologizing. Did he totally break character or just say something like 'Sandman maybe what I did to you may have offended some people. For that I am sorry. But I am not sorry for taking your wife and your kid and blah blah blah Quote the Raven nevermore'. Was the apology on tv? Hell was the crucifixion on tv? I always thought it was.

 

ECW brought Kurt Angle in to commentate on a match between Taz and someone because he didn't agree with becoming a Pro Wrestler (listen to his commentry on that match

What? Could you make that more clear dude? I was a little lost there.

[Guest]

Raven and Angle never had a feud but they did wrestle before. It was the beginning of the Invasion angle and Kurt was doing a backstage interview with ( I think) Michael Cole. During it, Raven comes walking down the stairs behind Angle and they get into a little Arguement.

 

Anyway, Raven Challenges Angle to a match, but he says its "ECW Rules." Meaning Hardcore and Angle all in his goofy like Character accepts and Says to Raven while he's walking away, "Oh, and ECW Doesn't Rule. WWf Rules."

[Guest RickyB]

What was the chairshot heard roudn the world? Was that the same thing?

 

And I didnt know about Raven coming out and apologizing. Did he totally break character or just say something like 'Sandman maybe what I did to you may have offended some people. For that I am sorry. But I am not sorry for taking your wife and your kid and blah blah blah Quote the Raven nevermore'. Was the apology on tv? Hell was the crucifixion on tv? I always thought it was.

The Cruisifixion wasn't on TV, they cut it because some people were really offended by it.  These were people inside the ECW arena who were offended by it so you could imagine what the general public would have been like!

 

ECW brought Kurt Angle in to commentate on a match between Taz and someone because he didn't agree with becoming a Pro Wrestler (listen to his commentry on that match

What? Could you make that more clear dude? I was a little lost there.

 

Kurt Angle didn't agree with becoming a Wrestler so ECW brought him in to commentate on a show to try and convince him the Wrestling was for him.  He commentated on some match involving Taz and he sounded really really boring back then.

[Guest muzanisa]

Umm Ghast I think this was all my fault.

 

It was a thread where Anglesault was saying that HHH was holding everyone down so I just made up all this shit about Angle holding all the ECW crew down based on him being pissed off about the crucifixion angle when ECW bought him in. I thought I had made it pretty obvious I was taking the piss by saying that Angle had lost in Shoot fights to Val Venis and Earl Hebner and accusing him of getting his wife to fight his battles with RVD for him but lots of people took it seriously.

I think Raven is not pushed because he left the role of Jonny Polo who the WWF liked as a commentator to wrestle and got over as Raven. Very few wrestlers who make it on their own elsewhere get pushed as the characters that made them in the WWF. The only ones I can think of who did are the Dudley Boys and Flair.

[Guest Singular]

Why would that offend Angle and the Undertaker/Austin Cruisifixion angle that the WWF not offend him?  Did the WWF do their angle after ECW?

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

Here's how I heard it...

 

The "Crucifixion Angle" involved Raven and Sandman. Kurt Angle was there to WATCH the show and see what it was like. Kurt thought it was an okay show, and saw how pumped-up the audience was, and then Raven and Sandman started brawling...

One thing lead to another, and Raven tied Sandman to the entrance set (chainlink fence on either side of the curtain, fake-bricks, etc.) and placed a crown of barbed wire on his head. He then started caning him as his son and wife watched, cheering Raven on. Angle, who I think is actually VERY religious, was disgusted tremendously and told Heyman that if any shot aired on TV from that show of Kurt in the audience, he would sue Heyman for every dollar he's worth (see the irony in the comment?).

 

As for why Angle still signed with the WWF, even though Austin, Bossman, and others were "crucified" by the Undertaker...I have a feeling it has to do with the fact that there was no crown of thorns-like prop added, and the "cross" in question was the old-school Undertaker symbol with handle-bars for the "crucified" wrestler to hold on to, and a footstep for them to place their feet. Pretty different...

[Guest Some Guy]

Angle said on WOL a few years ago that he was pissed at Heymen, not Raven for lying to him about not doing anything on the show to embarrass a "real" wrestler and someone wuth his squeeky clean reputation.  Heymen and Raven are both Jewish, so they probably didn't see the angle as very offensive, but Angle did and a lot of others did.

 

From what I've heard Vionce doesn't push Raven because he never did. In 94 Raven was Jonny Polo, Vince made him a manager because he felt Levy was too small to be a wrestler.  Plus Raven has had drug and alcohol problems that make Eddy and Hall look like Mormans.  Raven is also in his late 30's and is pretty beat up from his carreer and his former lifestyle.

[Guest Ravenbomb]

All is forgiven. Now go rent some ECW DVD's STAT!

I've got Extreme Evolution (BARBED WIRE MATCH~!) and Path of Destruction on DVD, and Extreme Matches vol. 2 and that has the Raven/Richards vs. Pitbulls dog collar match, so I'm set for now

[Guest]

What was the chairshot heard roudn the world? Was that the same thing?

 

And I didnt know about Raven coming out and apologizing. Did he totally break character or just say something like 'Sandman maybe what I did to you may have offended some people. For that I am sorry. But I am not sorry for taking your wife and your kid and blah blah blah Quote the Raven nevermore'. Was the apology on tv? Hell was the crucifixion on tv? I always thought it was.

He broke character to do it an apology to the people, etc for the content after they had lost their Sunshine Network TV deal and all because of it.   Not on ECW TV.  

 

I kinda see Angle as hypocritical if he made a big stink about it when the Undertaker COPIED Raven's gimmick later on in the WWF.  I don't think the crown of barbed wire makes much of a difference it's still a crucifixion, and if i was "deeply religious" would be offended by it.  Of course I hate religion and say YAY. k.

[Guest Van-Daminated]

i would love to see Raven get a big push he is such an interesting and complex character and his promos are AWESOME, though not really wwf style catchphrase fests at last till the end or maybe the what about me thing.

I still think he has a few good years of wrestling in him.

 

If anything just get him out of the hardcore title division he is to good to in that division,still keep ravens rules but just use it like they did in wcw, he could bring in the chair for the drop toe-hold and it was legal and the announcers constantly put it over,if they did it like that it would work, especialy in a big maych say on a ppv he would go nuts and do a table spot or  chairs, maybe a ladder or something.

 

I am a big mark for a bunch of former ecw'ers (tazz,raven,rvd to name a few) and think tazz and raven could get just as over as the dudleys used to be and rvd is maybe moreso even. i think they could be strong mid-top lever wrestlers with an occasional main event angle.

[Guest nl5xsk1]

I think the only reason that Raven isn't pushed is that the WWF has too many people younger and more "over" in line ahead of him.  

Didn't Raven leave the WWF - and the Johnny Polo gimmick -with Vince's approval?  I thought it was that VKM wanted him to be more of a manager ( and booker/writer-type person) and not a wrestler, whereas the person who we now know as Raven still wanted to wrestle.  So Vince let him go elsewhere with his permission (although I highly doubt that he figured that ECW would get so big or that Raven would become such a major part of it.)

[Guest evenflowDDT]

The Cruisifixion wasn't on TV, they cut it because some people were really offended by it.

If anyone's really interested in the infamous Raven/Sandman "crucifixtion", I believe there's an audience photo of it at the Raven fansite http://www.scottlevy.com .  Also, didn't Angle write about his distaste for the incident in his book? Can anyone who's read the boom confirm this?

 

Anyway, even though Raven is one of my favorite wrestlers (you couldn't tell? ), he would never get a push because his character type isn't over anymore (grunge is dead, thank God... funny how I hate grunge but love Raven), and the WWF really didn't know what to do with him, so they stuck him with the Hardcore division for a while since he was ex-ECW, but beyond that, they were never really motivated to do anything for him, although he does have one of the cooleset WWF shirts around (but my opinion is a little biased).

 

Although I've never seen any of Johnny Polo's semi-famous commentary, my friend who got me hooked on wrestling told me it was really good, and even though Raven is nowhere near Polo, I'm glad to see the WWF is doing something for the guy, since I like him a lot.