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justcoz

Company high on Chavo vs. Rey

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WWE is very happy with Chavo Guerrero’s recent work. There is a feeling among many in WWE that he is the perfect opponent for Rey Mysterio due to the fact that he is not the typical cruiserweight. His more grounded style brings a different element to cruiser matches. There are many in the company who hope that the two can elevate the division to the next level. As long as management gets behind them and gives them the chance, they can. credit - www.pwinsider.com

 

Why even bother having a cruiserweight division if they aren't going to let the talent play to their strengths? I understand the saftey/injury concerns with talent and I actually approve of slowing down the matches and telling more of a story for the heavyweights. The cruiserweights are supposed to provide an alternative however in terms of quickness, high flying and action. That is the only way a cruiserweight division is going to work.

 

It's one thing that they don't push the division but if they do decide to push it and have these guys on the mat in front face locks for five minutes, it's going to bomb and they are going to blame their size and say that nobody wants to see cruiserweights. People don't want to see a "grounded" style from Rey Mysterio Jr.

 

This is only going to make the X Division in NWATNA look all the more better. That is the type of action people want to see. I'll be disappointed in Mania is a one on one with Mysterio and Chavo. I was thinking more along the lines of a gimmick match with Mysterio, Tajiri, Noble, Chavo, Kidman and London, Ultimo and Akio.

 

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LISTEN TO THE PITTSBURGH MUSIC SCENE...

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Well it's a nice distinction to add to the cruiserweight division.

 

The Cruiserweight Division: Heavyweight wrestling, BUT SMALLER!

And yet, you have Noble's treatment...

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Oh cmon, plenty of the best Junior matches of all time have had lots of groundwork in them. If it means more matches like Knoble-Rey from SD, I'm all for it. Building with early matwork all the way into the big spots at the end makes them mean more, and will lead to better matches. 15-20 minutes of Rey and Chavo is all good.

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Guest Goodear

Because Noble, Nunzio and Tajiri are all high flyers since...? Anyway based on Rey's debut match against Chavo that worked exceptionally well for television and the fact that Chavo might actually have some heat now, I don't see why this wouldn't actually work well for the cruiserweight division. Now they just need to build up Kidman and London a bit more if only to give the heels in the division someone to work against.

 

Why even bother having a cruiserweight division if they aren't going to let the talent play to their strengths?

 

PSSST... none of the cruiserweights other than Rey have high flying as their strengths. Having Nunzio go to the air is asking for trouble when he's much better at working a semi-worked shoot style.

 

The cruiserweights are supposed to provide an alternative however in terms of quickness, high flying and action. That is the only way a cruiserweight division is going to work.

 

The most successful cruiserweight division in North American wrestling history was built around Rey, Dean Malenko and Chris Jericho. Two of those guys were never built around being super quick. Just saying...

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There is a feeling among many in WWE that he is the perfect opponent for Rey Mysterio due to the fact that he is not the typical cruiserweight. His more grounded style brings a different element to cruiser matches.

You could say the same exact thing about Knoble, yet he only got a 1 month shot at Rey, with only 2 matches (1 of which was ~3 minutes). Their SD match was all kinds of good.

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PSSST... none of the cruiserweights other than Rey have high flying as their strengths. Having Nunzio go to the air is asking for trouble when he's much better at working a semi-worked shoot style.

 

Kidman, Moore, Yang.

 

The problem with the cruisers being grounded is that they become just like heavyweights. There is no real distinction, so why bother to care ESPECIALLY under the WWE system of "Small = bad".

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It's so funny when the have one or two reformed cruisers sitting on top of the Raw card.

 

Hate all you want, but RVD NEVER got over with clotheslines or facelocks.

 

On the contrary Jericho made an impact early in WWF vs. Shamrock I believe? Busting out all kinds of holds on some big guy I forget the name of.

 

I would say that my ideal Cruiserweight is someone like Daniels, Low-Ki, or Tajiri. Wrestlers who use their speed and flexability to put on spectacular matches and who can fly when they have to PERFECTLY. But do it rare enough that it means a lot.

 

Amazing Red and Rey Mysterio have their places, but a whole division based upon them is as effectively useless as a heavyweight division based solely on clotheslines and sidewalk slams.

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I understand that Tajiri, Noble and Ninzio are not high flyers and neither was Dean Malenko. My problem isn't with them preventing guys from flying. My problem is a fear that this news means they intend to slow down the pace to the point that they are wrestling the exact same style as the heavyweights.

 

Maybe I jumped the gun a bit upon reading that news excerpt without thinking of the Noble vs. Rey match last week. I also liked that match and how the pace quickened at the end after a slow build.

 

There needs to be a balance, I guess. I can see them not wanting to have a Juvi vs. Teddy Hart spot fest and wanting to incorporate mat work and psychology into the cruiserweight action. Especially if Malenko has anything to do with it. Just don't get it to the point where the matches are boring and people are sitting on their hands.

 

I enjoy the X Division matches and their pace. I think that's the action people want to see. It's the only time I can get my girlfriend to watch wrestling with me, I know that. There is high flying involved but it's mostly just a quicker pace and some stiff shots.

 

High flying and speed aren't causing injuries, it's the bumps people take these days. The crop of wrestlers that are coming up these days are guys who grew up watching Shawn Michaels and WCW cruisers - they are smaller guys and are naturally going to wrestle a different style than HHH.

 

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LISTEN TO THE PITTSBURGH MUSIC SCENE

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I'm all for the cruisers incorporating psych and matwork IF it leads to something. Which it never does, so fuck it. Noble could work the shit out of Rey's legs for 5 minutes straight and we'd still see a West Coast Pop finish.

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Guest MikeSC
WWE is very happy with Chavo Guerrero’s recent work. There is a feeling among many in WWE that he is the perfect opponent for Rey Mysterio due to the fact that he is not the typical cruiserweight. His more grounded style brings a different element to cruiser matches. There are many in the company who hope that the two can elevate the division to the next level. As long as management gets behind them and gives them the chance, they can. credit - www.pwinsider.com

 

Why even bother having a cruiserweight division if they aren't going to let the talent play to their strengths? I understand the saftey/injury concerns with talent and I actually approve of slowing down the matches and telling more of a story for the heavyweights. The cruiserweights are supposed to provide an alternative however in terms of quickness, high flying and action. That is the only way a cruiserweight division is going to work.

 

It's one thing that they don't push the division but if they do decide to push it and have these guys on the mat in front face locks for five minutes, it's going to bomb and they are going to blame their size and say that nobody wants to see cruiserweights. People don't want to see a "grounded" style from Rey Mysterio Jr.

 

This is only going to make the X Division in NWATNA look all the more better. That is the type of action people want to see. I'll be disappointed in Mania is a one on one with Mysterio and Chavo. I was thinking more along the lines of a gimmick match with Mysterio, Tajiri, Noble, Chavo, Kidman and London, Ultimo and Akio.

 

pnr1.gif

LISTEN TO THE PITTSBURGH MUSIC SCENE...

Has everybody forgotten Chavo's rather fun run as WCW CW Champ right before the sale? He was a terrific champ.

-=Mike

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Guest FrigidSoul

Chavo was a great CW champ at the end of WCW...some of the matches he and Sugar Shane Helms had were just amazing.

 

Smackdown needs Juvi, Psychosis, and Sugar Shane(not The Hurricane)

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Guest KidKrash

They're doing this with CHAVO?! I'm convinced Vince is on crack. Of all the people he could do this with. Malenko if they could ever get him back would be loads better. Knoble is around and wouldn't have a bad case of "lower on the totem pole family member" syndrome.

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Personally, I think a cruiserweight match hurts when all the participants do is fly around. A cruiserweight shouldn't fly all the time, he should "cruise". Someone like Chavo or Knoble excell at this because they incorporate mat work and the high spots in the same match. Difference is, a high spot, or a risk maneuver, should only be taken towards the climax, when the participant feels they have to perform that particular spot. I think it's a good idea, I just hope ALL of the high-spots aren't taken out of the division.

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Guest OSIcon

There's a difference between cruisers working a more grounded/high flying mix and them wrestling as "small heavyweights".

 

As some people have said, Chavo had a very good run as cruiserweight champ at the end of WCW (the whole CW division was undergoing a really good rebirth during that time as well, but that's another story). He actually had a really good match with Rey at Superbrawl in 2001 that would have been even better had Rey not been a little sloppy on several spots (which was most likely due to the fact he hadn't wrestled a real match since before Russo came in and was rusty). It had enough high flying but also was solid on the ground and a lot more then just spotfu. The match (and Chavo's matches against Helms) were "grounded" in a sense that they didn't contain a million high flying moves. However, they still had a few good high spots, good working in between, good stories, and a fast pace (which is as much of a staple of the divisoina s high flying).

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There's a difference between cruisers working a more grounded/high flying mix and them wrestling as "small heavyweights".

 

As some people have said, Chavo had a very good run as cruiserweight champ at the end of WCW (the whole CW division was undergoing a really good rebirth during that time as well, but that's another story). He actually had a really good match with Rey at Superbrawl in 2001 that would have been even better had Rey not been a little sloppy on several spots (which was most likely due to the fact he hadn't wrestled a real match since before Russo came in and was rusty). It had enough high flying but also was solid on the ground and a lot more then just spotfu. The match (and Chavo's matches against Helms) were "grounded" in a sense that they didn't contain a million high flying moves. However, they still had a few good high spots, good working in between, good stories, and a fast pace (which is as much of a staple of the divisoina s high flying).

Exactly. The high spots of the matches were few but they all came at the opportune moment and made sense in the match. Cruiserweight wrestling should be ground-work mixed in with high-flying. Neither extreme does the division credit.

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A cruiserweight match needs groundwork. Otherwise, it would be one giant spotfest. I like Chavo's more grounded style. I don't recall him and Mysterio wrestling each other (I know they did, but I never saw the matches) so I would like to see how they mesh. Hopefully, they will get more than the 3 minutes that the WWE gave Rey and Noble and the Royal Rumble. That was straight up bull shit.

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Am I the only one that when they hear about WWE wanting to slow things down it really means WWE doesn't want the highflyers to overshadow the hosses or HHH.

 

I mean think about it who ends up getting injured the most? Roided hosses like Batiasa and HHH. Or people that uses hundreds of German suplexes in matches like Angle. With RVDs highflyer style he hasn't been injured at all since he came to the WWE because he is flexable which is something WWE should work on more then have the "look".

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I'm so sick and tired of people trying to sound smart with this idiotic "less is more/save high spots so that they'll mean more" argument. Here's the way I look at it: If a guy waits until 20 minutes into a match to bust out a big move and it is so effective, then I'm sitting there saying 'Why did you waste the first 20 minutes doing a chinlock?'

 

That's the inherent problem. They keep saying "slow it down, slow it down..." but in doing so, you are just getting a bunch of restholds that don't really do anything. This is why Randy Orton sucks right now, for example. His whole offense consists of chinlocks and armbars. But what do these moves lead to? Do they in any way factor into the finish? Nope. Basically, you have 15-20 minutes wasted with restholds only to get the same WWE-style finish.

 

Screw that. I want action. ESPECIALLY from cruiserweights.

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Chavo and Rey Jr. had a nice Smackdown match, I believe on the first "brand extension" show of Smackdown in 2002. Chavo used some nice groundwork and psychology, and then both of them proceeded to the high-spots when the match heated up (which wasn't after 20 minutes). I'm saying that they should mix it up with ground-work and high spots.

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Why can't they work around rest spots more creatively? Why just slap on a chin lock when you can change up submission moves like Benoit and Angle do? Slap on an armbar for half a minute. It's not working? Hook the head. Work in some reversals. Are these guys so lazy that they can't think of better things to do while they're lying on the mat? Sheesh!

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You forget that those crafty reversals cause all of the neck injuries we see in the WWE, and all the fault goes to those damn small fry wrestlers and their holds~! Why can't they just be like Triple H?

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Guest Dynamite Kido

Considering that the "Cruiserweight" division is derived from the Jr's in Japan and somewhat Lucha Libre they should try and work this style. If they aren't willing to do this, they should just give up on the division. I have always been a do it right or don't do it at all type person, so that's how I feel about it.

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I always thought cruiserweights were used to, you know, pump up the crowd with quick high flying action.

 

The best cruiser matches are high flying with guys who know how to make amazing mid air counters that make you go "Damn, how the hell did he do that???" They are supposed to grab your imagination and get you on your feet in the short amount of time they have.

 

Notice how the crowd is only into Rey when he's flying around like a ping pong ball? Cause that is what you want and expect from a smaller guy. You don't want Mini A-Train when you see the cruiserweights. They are high flyers for a reason.

 

The reason guys like Malenko worked is cause they knew how to counter the cruiserweights style but they also COULD move quickly if it called for it. This just sounds like the WWE wants a slow paced match that just busts out quick moves at the end which is stupid.

 

Open with high flying cruiserweights to open a show, follow them up with a good solid second match and you'll have the crowd the whole show.

 

The sad thing is the WWE doesn't understand that SOME of these guys CAN incorporate amazing technical aspects into the match while still using the quick moves. They aren't just spot guys if you actually pay attention to luchadors.

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I didn't see this posted else but, I thought it was interesting.

 

Heat continues to fall on Triple H backstage in WWE. Many wrestlers are pointing fingers at Triple H as the main guy to push for the new, slower, more restricted ring style that seems to favor him more than anyone else. Most were then furious that the Triple H/Shawn Michaels match at the Royal Rumble was allowed to break those restrictions and thus come off as the most exciting match of the night.

 

Credit: PWTorch Newsletter

 

 

This just confirms my feelings that all this slowing things down bull is so that the highflyers like RVD won't overshadow HHH and the hosses.

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Triple H puts on any more weight and the match restrictions could be you aren't allowed to move in the ring.

 

 

Plus, I'm not going to blame Triple H for this one. Vince just doesn't like small guys and has about as much knowledge as a slinkie. If he was smart, he'd realize the high flyers can only help since they would wake up a crowd and serve to add exciting matches to House Shows.

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I didn't see this posted else but, I thought it was interesting.

 

Heat continues to fall on Triple H backstage in WWE. Many wrestlers are pointing fingers at Triple H as the main guy to push for the new, slower, more restricted ring style that seems to favor him more than anyone else. Most were then furious that the Triple H/Shawn Michaels match at the Royal Rumble was allowed to break those restrictions and thus come off as the most exciting match of the night.

 

Credit: PWTorch Newsletter

 

 

This just confirms my feelings that all this slowing things down bull is so that the highflyers like RVD won't overshadow HHH and the hosses.

Wasn't this the same match people were pissing on for being nothing but Punch/Kick/Bleed/Lie around for 2 minutes/rinse/repeat?

 

This sounds more like someone pushing an agenda than someone reporting actual news.

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Guest OSIcon
I always thought cruiserweights were used to, you know, pump up the crowd with quick high flying action.

 

The best cruiser matches are high flying with guys who know how to make amazing mid air counters that make you go "Damn, how the hell did he do that???" They are supposed to grab your imagination and get you on your feet in the short amount of time they have.

 

Not really. That is part of it. Nobody is disagreeing that the highflying is a huge part of the appeal of cruiserweights. However, that doesn't mean that the only way cruiserweight matches can be any good is if they go out there for five minutes, hit a ton of cool looking high spots, then wrap it up after they have sprinted though the match. Instead, the good cruiserweight wrestlers incorporate cool flying action, while building to those moves, having good/logical ground offense mixed in, showing more athleticsm then the heavyweights in ways other than high flying, working at a fast pace, and still telling a good story. You still get your cool flying moves, but you also get a good over all match and it helps avoid the problem of moves meaning nothing after the fans have seen them done 5 times a match every single week.

 

I'm so sick and tired of people trying to sound smart with this idiotic "less is more/save high spots so that they'll mean more" argument. Here's the way I look at it: If a guy waits until 20 minutes into a match to bust out a big move and it is so effective, then I'm sitting there saying 'Why did you waste the first 20 minutes doing a chinlock?'

 

That's the inherent problem. They keep saying "slow it down, slow it down..." but in doing so, you are just getting a bunch of restholds that don't really do anything. This is why Randy Orton sucks right now, for example. His whole offense consists of chinlocks and armbars. But what do these moves lead to? Do they in any way factor into the finish? Nope. Basically, you have 15-20 minutes wasted with restholds only to get the same WWE-style finish.

 

Screw that. I want action. ESPECIALLY from cruiserweights.

 

Again, there is a difference between working a match that isn't just a bunch of highspots and working a cruiserweight match that also incorporates ground work. All of the legit good WCW Cruiserweight matches followed that formula. Two wrestlers can work a more grounded cruiser style without having a 19 minute chinlock.

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Less spots is a good thing if it keeps people interested. That's part of the reason Red and some other high fliers go stale so quick. If you're see corkscrew planchas and the like week in week out, it becomes just another move like the german suplex or the Rude Awakening style neckbreaker. When someone busts out a big move, people are more likely to pop if it's a rare occurence.

 

I mean, look at the HIAC Match. They had to tone that down because people wanted more and more dangerous roof bumps after the Shawn/Foley ones. Along came Bossman/Taker, which was utter tripe anyway, but a roof bump was what the crowd wanted. So the WWE had to calm it down before people were wanting more and more bumps that carried higher and higher injuries rates.

 

Same for the Hardcore division. 1989...a chair shot would near enough kill a guy. 1998...a chair shot would still pop the crowd. 2000...who hadn't been hit with a chair shot. It grew stale.

 

The cruiser division's different of course...but, still, it doesn't hurt to tone it down to get fans more into the slower, technical style of cruiser wrestling. As far as Vince sees it, less cruiser super moves will mean less critisism of slower workers like Trips, and may even get fans more educated on technical wrestlers like Benoit.

 

And it's not like the cruiser division NEEDS too many spots. ROH has proved technical cruisers can put on great matches still. In ECW, you had Malenko/Guerreros awesome matches, and to a lesser extent on technical and quality stakes Crazy/Tajiri. This should be a good thing. Why they're building it on Chavo I'm not sure.

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