French National Assembly to vote...

[Guest DeputyHawk]

Actually, they're voting to remove all overt religious symbols from being worn in state schools, but it's Muslim girl's headscarves which have caused the most outrage. Jewish skull-caps and Christian crosses are also to be banned. President Jacques Chirac is behind the proposals and they are massively popular with the French public.

 

With the strictly secular French government in an ideal position to impliment this, I think it's a fantastic step in the gradual all-inclusive elimination of religious hatred. People can call the laws Draconian or Orwellian or whatever, but looking at the bigger picture if removing traditionally recognised symbols of religious segregation can in some way reduce division and sectarianism from schools and, therefore, from the future populace - do it, says I. I'm not saying eliminate religion, just reduce its public profile. The deep divisons organised religion creates cause the vast majority of the world's ills, and especially in this time of intolerance and extremism I believe France is doing a good thing.

[Guest Cerebus]

Actually, they're voting to remove all overt religious symbols from being worn in state schools, but it's Muslim girl's headscarves which have caused the most outrage. Jewish skull-caps and Christian crosses are also to be banned. President Jacques Chirac is behind the proposals and they are massively popular with the French public.

 

With the strictly secular French government in an ideal position to impliment this, I think it's a fantastic step in the gradual all-inclusive elimination of religious hatred. People can call the laws Draconian or Orwellian or whatever, but looking at the bigger picture if removing traditionally recognised symbols of religious segregation can in some way reduce division and sectarianism from schools and, therefore, from the future populace - do it, says I. I'm not saying eliminate religion, just reduce its public profile. The deep divisons organised religion creates cause the vast majority of the world's ills, and especially in this time of intolerance and extremism I believe France is doing a good thing.

Yeah now muslim parents will be sending their kids to those private Islamic Madrassas which have been funded by our old pals the Saudis. No wories about intolerance or extremism once tons of French muslim children are educated there. No siree.

[Guest hunger4unger]

I'm undecided on my opinion with this one. Whilst I think that people of any religion should be free to demonstrate their faith in which ever way they choose i.e wear a crucifix, the reality is that hate and ultimately attacks from one religion to another is a huge world problem and any steps to eradicate the problem is welcomed.

[Firestarter 0]

especially in this time of intolerance and extremism I believe France is doing a good thing.

Yeah, by being tolerant and moderate in the measures it takes.

 

Wait...

[Zorin Industries 0]

If it had only been directed at Muslims I would have had a problem, but since it is directed at all faiths I don't really have a problem with this, though like Cerebus said the only problem I could see would be an increase in the numbers attending Madrassas. Then again i've never been comfortable with faith-run schools ethier

[Guest JMA]

Isn't there already a thread on this in CE?

[Zorin Industries 0]

Thats what I was thinking, but I think it was knocked back to page 2, so i assume he didn't see it

[Guest DeputyHawk]

Sorry dudes, I scrolled through the first couple pages but didn't see it. Guess I missed out on the debate here, ah well. My bad. As they say. In Blossom.

[Zorin Industries 0]

It died out there last time anyway, so no harm done. I think its an interesting issue to look at.

[Guest DeputyHawk]

I genuinely think this is a great ruling. To me, it's no different from banning football colours from schools, all it does is create division and distraction and cause friction between students. Of course, the government has no right to ever tell people how to worship, but to me spirituality is a private thing to be undertaken in your own home or a religious building anyway. It should, in all forms of paraphanelia, be kept out of the classroom, which it has nothing at all to do with.

[Firestarter 0]

France backs school head scarf ban - CNN story

 

494-36, an overwhelming victory for the ban. Once again the French prove that they can only win a fight when they're on the wrong side.

[Zorin Industries 0]

What is your problem with the ruling, if I may ask?

[Guest DeputyHawk]

From the same CNN story:

 

Public opinion polls indicate about 70 percent of the French are in favor of the measure. And even in the French Muslim community, Muslim women favor a ban 49 percent to 43 percent.

 

Why is this a bad thing, Marney?

[Firestarter 0]

What is your problem with the ruling, if I may ask?

Imposing secularism by diktat is as bad as imposing religion. Of course, I live in the United States, a country which delights in such barbaric "rights" as bearing arms, executing criminals, and even (gasp!) freedom of worship, so maybe I'm just not advanced enough in a progressive sort of way to grasp your enlightened European viewpoint. Please explain to me how wearing a crucifix around your neck or a scarf or a yarmulke over your hair harms anybody. Anybody at all.

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

Please explain to me how wearing a crucifix around your neck or a scarf or a yarmulke over your hair harms anybody. Anybody at all.

It could be a harm to themselves. If identifying yourself as Muslim, Christian, whatnot, in a place where such religions are not tolerated, they could be harassed, threatened, or killed.

 

Example, the gas station owner (in Texas, I believe) who was killed in the few days after 9/11 because he looked like an Arabian.

[Guest DeputyHawk]

Institutionalised racial hatred, handed down from generation to generation. Religious paraphanelia only highlights the differences between kids who are only wearing crucifixes, headscarves, whatever because their parents have told them to. You remove the paraphanelia, you remove one of the obvious differences between the kids and they are less likely to blindly follow whatever's fed to them. I lived in France for a year and racism, believe it or not, is even worse there than it is in America.

[Firestarter 0]

It could be a harm to themselves.  If identifying yourself as Muslim, Christian, whatnot, in a place where such religions are not tolerated, they could be harassed, threatened, or killed.

 

Example, the gas station owner (in Texas, I believe) who was killed in the few days after 9/11 because he looked like an Arabian.

Aha! So the solution to criminal bigots victimising people of faith is to make sure that the people of faith keep their faith hidden. Brilliant! After all, we wouldn't want to go after the actual murderers, right?

[Guest SP-1]

Please explain to me how wearing a crucifix around your neck or a scarf or a yarmulke over your hair harms anybody. Anybody at all.

It could be a harm to themselves. If identifying yourself as Muslim, Christian, whatnot, in a place where such religions are not tolerated, they could be harassed, threatened, or killed.

 

Example, the gas station owner (in Texas, I believe) who was killed in the few days after 9/11 because he looked like an Arabian.

I disagree. If you've made a choice, you should have the right to make it a part of your visible identity. Were I in France, I would probably remove my cross, in school, but I would likely be making up for it in some other area. People with a passion, especially teenagers, generally won't be cowed into submission. Especially not on subjects like that.

[Zorin Industries 0]

This was my reply to the original thread:

 

I have to say I think this is a good idea, as long as it is applied to all religions. I have a firm belief that school is the last place to allow religion to enter, as it can add a number of deep divisions. To use an example, here in Northern Ireland most of the schools are for ethier Catholics or Protestants, as having mixed schools can lead to a lot of trouble. I went to a predominatly Protestant school, a few of my friends were Catholic and they would NEVER talk about their religion as they would more than likely get beaten up and verbally abused. I've seen with my own eyes what religion leads to in a school enviroment and I applaued theses steps to redeuce its influence in the school enviroment.

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

Aha! So the solution to criminal bigots victimising people of faith is to make sure that the people of faith keep their faith hidden. Brilliant! After all, we wouldn't want to go after the actual murderers, right?

It would help in a way to keep yourself from being singled out.

 

As far as not going after the murderers, where the Hell did you pick that out of my post? Of course they should be dealt with to the full extent of the law.

[Firestarter 0]

It would help in a way to keep yourself from being singled out.

So would hiding underground. Let's make all those damn religious people do that, then we won't have to see them.

 

As far as not going after the murderers, where the Hell did you pick that out of my post?  Of course they should be dealt with to the full extent of the law.

Well, if you prefer forcing religious people to hide symbols of their religion in certain environments to vigorously prosecuting violence against religious people (which the French have been notoriously lax about), you are by default on the side of the bigots. Religious people can already choose not to wear symbols of their religion. The French have decided to force people to hide them. In effect, the French have surrendered to the criminals and the bigots.

 

Honestly, is anyone surprised? That's pretty much all they know how to do.

[Guest DeputyHawk]

If one third of a class were coming to lessons wearing, say, Marilyn Manson shirts, one third showed up wearing Britney Spears branded clothing, and the final third were all dressed in home-made Fugazi shirts, and they all hated each other's music to the extent it was preventing them from focusing on their lessons, wouldn't it make sense to say "No more music branded clothing from here on, just do your damn work and focus on the music you like in your own time"? It's not disrespecting people's freedom of choice, it's just common sense to make the school environment more conducive to learning.

[Firestarter 0]

Are you already reduced to comparing people's religions to their tastes in music?

[Guest DeputyHawk]

Am I already reduced? Is comparing religion to musical taste the first recoginsed step towards complete and total moral bankruptcy?

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

Marney just missed your point. Or refused to acknowledge it was viable.

[Firestarter 0]

Am I already reduced? Is comparing religion to musical taste the first recoginsed step towards complete and total moral bankruptcy?

Given that cracking down on religious expression is a historically recognised step towards tyranny, subjugation, persecution, and sometimes genocide, well, yeah.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Censorship in any form is bad.

 

Bill of Rights.

#1

Freedom of Speech, Assembly, etc...

Something that I thought people thought was a good idea.

 

It's called the freedom to be yourself.

 

Wearing a cross or anything like that...yourself

Wearing a flashing neon billboard...compensating

 

Sorry folks...France has completely lost it here

[Guest Cerebus]

Well France can't stay the Arab's Euro-darling for long after this. Pleanty of low income Muslim families will be "encouraged" by their leaders to blow a ton of money to get their kids radicalized in Madrassas or they will simply not be educated at all. Either way they'll become isolated and more xenophobic than they are now in France. Other European nations will catch on (Germany already has) and before you know it we'll have a very nasty situation in Europe. But all that is ok, so long as secularism is preserved. Too bad us primitive, backward Americans can not see the wise moves of our European betters and still cling to our meaningless first amendment.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

We are allowed freedom expression of religion in Canada and we aren't brawling in the streets or anything. We get along. There is no reason other nations can't do the same.

[Guest Anglesault]

Am I already reduced? Is comparing religion to musical taste the first recoginsed step towards complete and total moral bankruptcy?

Given that cracking down on religious expression is a historically recognised step towards tyranny, subjugation, persecution, and sometimes genocide, well, yeah.

You would know, because you're good at facts and stuff, but wasn't that somewhat of a contributing factor to the French Reign of Terror?