Aging puro fan needs flame rekindled

[Guest Captian Linger]

Place the obscure reference from the topic description and win a donut!

 

I've been an avid puro watcher for just over two years now and in that span of time I'd discovered the greatness of NJPW Jrs and Hvys, Mpro, AJPW 80's and 90's, Joshi, and even seem garbage wrestling as well. After viewing these genres with a near religious devotion, I don't find my faith fading, but wading in a shallow pool, not quite ready to dive back into the deep end (IE: filling in the many blanks in my tape collection).

 

What I want now is to be completely blown away like I was when I first saw Kawada in action. Like the first time I saw Great Sasuke do a Space Flying Tiger Drop, I want the magic of discovery once again.

 

I know that there are several genres I have yet to dwelve into in the international wrestling scene, such as Lucha, shoot style UWFi, Rings, and others I'm probably forgetting but should really see;).

 

I want YOU, the wrestling fan, to recommend what I dive into next and don't look back until I've spent 300$ getting tapes;).

 

I'm leaning towards lucha, but I'm also curious about Takada's glory days in UWFi.

 

Discuss away.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Lucha Libre all the way.

 

You will be blown away but you need to understand that it is great but not in the same way as MPro, NJ Juniors, etc are.  I had that philosophy in my head when I went into Lucha and was expecting NJ Juniors/Rey Jr WCW High Flying for every single second of each of the 2/3 falls match.  

 

So I was disappointed initially, but as I leanred to do with AJPW Heavies (to US Pro Style), I was able to adjust, accept, and enjoy most of the "great" Lucha Libre that I have seen so far.  

 

As far as suggestions go, work your way forward through AAA's prime years with Barnett's 1993-95 series.

 

Then pick up some of his Hand Helds such as the 3/16/96 Rey Jr v Juve classic that is on par, if not better with any Junior match ever done in NJ.

 

Tim

[Guest Jubuki]

If you're looking for shoot-style, you may want to go with UWF 2 before UWFi.  The 2 shows I'd recommend are the 12/22/88 and 8/13/89 - for whatever reason, I found them easy to enjoy, moreso than the first time I saw UWFi stuff (though starting with Vader/Takada isn't a great idea).  After that, I'd pick my way through the Maeda/Takada matches and the Takada/Yamazaki matches until you'd seen everything that interested you.  UWFi could follow from there, though it introduces more unfamiliar faces.  I'd probably skip RINGS until you're more accustomed to the genre and you're ready to see Volk Han do matwork the T2P guys could only dream about.

 

Granted, I'd probably go with Lucha, too, but I figured someone should represent the realistic stuff.

[Guest MrDanger]

If you really want a challenge then try and track down to some UK footage.

 

The likes of Jushin Liger, Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Akira Maeda and Satoru Sayama all passed through the UK during the 80's, add those to regulars like Mark Rocco, Johnny Saint, Danny Collins, Marty Jones, Dave Finlay and a young Dynamite Kid and you have a pretty awesome amount of talent working the scene from the late 70's until the industry died in the late 80's.

 

Just try to avoid any Big Daddy matches

[Guest wolverine]

Not really what you're looking for, but a suggestion to *STAY AWAY* from.

 

-Misawa vs. Kawada 6/6/97

 

When I first saw this match, I was completely blown away by the incredible stiffness, bumps, drama and story.  It was something I had never in my life seen before.  How two wrestlers could devise such a story where not only do they know each other's moves, but they also know each other's counters, and were developing counters for those counters, was absolutely mind-boggling.  It was one of the first All Japan matches I had ever seen and also one of the best matches I had seen period.  

 

I mean, not only did Lorefice give it *****, but Meltzer actually gave it *****+, which is something that he's only done on a handful of occasions.  Meltzer actually wrote, and I quote (from the 6/23/97 Wrestling Observer):

 

"Anyway, this is one match worth searching out and at this point I'd have to rate it ahead of both Misawa-Kobashi bouts or the Mania Hart-Austin as the match of the year.  To someone who has never seen the two wrestle before, the Misawa-Kobashi may be a better match than this one, because in this match they played so much off blocking their well known spots so to a regular All Japan viewer, this would be a better match than the Kobashi match, but to a viewer unfamiliar with their previous bouts, the Kobashi match would be the better match."

 

Not only that, but then I read this John Williams' remark in the 5/9/98 Pro Wrestling Torch:

 

Regarding the 5/1/98 Misawa-Kawada Tokyo Dome match....

 

"The match was said to be technically a low-end match of the year candidate, though missing the 'doubt' that marked the match of the decade candidates these two have unleashed in June 1994 and June 1997."

 

So anyway, I watched this match again the other day.  OH MY GOD.

 

For me, all Misawa-Kawada matches start off at a 4.64 rating.  I don't have time to break down all of the specifics, but here's an example of what I do:

 

First off, I calculate on my TI-30X Solar the number of chops Kawada throws in any 60 sec. interval.  I tend to add a 1/4* if he uses more chops than Misawa uses elbows, because of my Kawada fandom.  Since Kawada rules so hard, his matches are usually super high on my calculator at the end of it.

 

Okay, on to the match.  First off, the tape was like a 3rd or 4th gen tape, with tons of shakiness in the picture.  I subtracted 3/4* for that.  For those following along that brought it to 3.89.  Then I see the completely and utterly ridiculous Misawa taking these stupid looking bumps on his head and not even selling them one bit.  I subtracted a * for every head drop.  

 

So anyways, by the time I was finished with the match, I had seen one of the most overrated, completely pathetic displays of "wrestling" in my life.  Just crap.  I don't really remember what I ended up giving it, since I think I had been drinking a little too much Pepsi, which made me so wired, I couldn't think straight.  But I think when it was all said and done I ended up giving it roughly minus ***3/4.

 

(written on April 1, 2002 with a Crayon)

[Guest]

Not really what you're looking for, but a suggestion to *STAY AWAY* from.

 

-Misawa vs. Kawada 6/6/97

 

When I first saw this match, I was completely blown away by the incredible stiffness, bumps, drama and story.  It was something I had never in my life seen before.  How two wrestlers could devise such a story where not only do they know each other's moves, but they also know each other's counters, and were developing counters for those counters, was absolutely mind-boggling.  It was one of the first All Japan matches I had ever seen and also one of the best matches I had seen period.  

 

I mean, not only did Lorefice give it *****, but Meltzer actually gave it *****+, which is something that he's only done on a handful of occasions.  Meltzer actually wrote, and I quote (from the 6/23/97 Wrestling Observer):

 

"Anyway, this is one match worth searching out and at this point I'd have to rate it ahead of both Misawa-Kobashi bouts or the Mania Hart-Austin as the match of the year.  To someone who has never seen the two wrestle before, the Misawa-Kobashi may be a better match than this one, because in this match they played so much off blocking their well known spots so to a regular All Japan viewer, this would be a better match than the Kobashi match, but to a viewer unfamiliar with their previous bouts, the Kobashi match would be the better match."

 

Not only that, but then I read this John Williams' remark in the 5/9/98 Pro Wrestling Torch:

 

Regarding the 5/1/98 Misawa-Kawada Tokyo Dome match....

 

"The match was said to be technically a low-end match of the year candidate, though missing the 'doubt' that marked the match of the decade candidates these two have unleashed in June 1994 and June 1997."

 

So anyway, I watched this match again the other day.  OH MY GOD.

 

For me, all Misawa-Kawada matches start off at a 4.64 rating.  I don't have time to break down all of the specifics, but here's an example of what I do:

 

First off, I calculate on my TI-30X Solar the number of chops Kawada throws in any 60 sec. interval.  I tend to add a 1/4* if he uses more chops than Misawa uses elbows, because of my Kawada fandom.  Since Kawada rules so hard, his matches are usually super high on my calculator at the end of it.

 

Okay, on to the match.  First off, the tape was like a 3rd or 4th gen tape, with tons of shakiness in the picture.  I subtracted 3/4* for that.  For those following along that brought it to 3.89.  Then I see the completely and utterly ridiculous Misawa taking these stupid looking bumps on his head and not even selling them one bit.  I subtracted a * for every head drop.  

 

So anyways, by the time I was finished with the match, I had seen one of the most overrated, completely pathetic displays of "wrestling" in my life.  Just crap.  I don't really remember what I ended up giving it, since I think I had been drinking a little too much Pepsi, which made me so wired, I couldn't think straight.  But I think when it was all said and done I ended up giving it roughly minus ***3/4.

 

(written on April 1, 2002 with a Crayon)

Wolverine did you really think and do those things or re you just joking?

[Guest wolverine]

<<(written on April 1, 2002 with a Crayon)

 

<Wolverine did you really think and do those things or re you just joking?

 

Have you ever wondered what was behind Google's amazing accuracy?  Well, check this link out:

 

http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html

[Guest Jubuki]

Yes indeed, the 6/6/97 match is not a good one.  And Mutoh/Kawada 2/02 is just like it, except instead of kicking out of the big moves too often, they just no-sell the big moves.

 

And was it necessary to quote the entire article for a one-liner?  I don't think so.

[Guest wolverine]

"Yes indeed, the 6/6/97 match is not a good one.  And Mutoh/Kawada 2/02 is just like it"

 

Mutoh/Kawada 2/02 is just like it?  No shit?!?!?  Considering the Misawa-Kawada 6/97 is one of my all-time favs, I'm going to HAVE to pick it up now.  I really can't wait.  I'll be expecting a ***** match, so I'll report on it when I see it.

 

Thanks for letting me know, Chris.

 

(Written today).

[Guest Jubuki]

Ummm...

 

OK, April Fool's Day was over 2 weeks ago, you can knock it off.

 

But anyway, I can see how people who mark for the wanton, unecessary, and next-to-meaningless stiffness of 6/97 or 6/99 or 10/98 would lose their shit, to some degree, over Mutoh/Kawada.

[Guest Captian Linger]

Hey, how did this turn into a 6/6/97 Misawa vs Kawada discussion?

 

The defenders of that match are just so touchy.

 

I recall being flamed off Zach's old board about a year ago for giving it less than *****+++++++!

 

Also, thanks for all the replies and pointers on where to start with lucha and shoot-style!

[Guest razazteca]

there was a UWFi PPV that had Lou Thesz as commentor check it out.  Also look for Billy Scott and Gary Albright from UWFi they had some good matches.

 

CMLL March and April tv of this year is good Lucha

3/17/02 Apocalipsis PPV might be a good start.  But beware of your expectation just like Tim Cooke said this Lucha is not all Rey Misterio Jr material, some of the title matches do involve psycology....Dr Wanger Jr vs Shocker for example.