Should i make the transition?

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Ok so far all I've seen of Puroresu is Junior action. Specifically NJPW, JCup, and M-Pro(my favorite..*sigh*). And soon I'm ordering a lot more M-Pro(once again *sigh*), JCrown, various BOSJ Tournaments, Lynch's Tiger Mask DVD comps, and Toryumon.

But I was wondering if before all that I should check out the heavies first? Like AJPW and NOAH. Or should I stick with the Juniors and get my feel of it?

Let me do this in list format...lol...the best way to get answers.

 

-Is Toryumon even any good?

 

-Don't you love M-Pro to? *sigh*

 

-Should I buy all the Junior action I can get before buying the heavy stuff?

 

-Is NOAH any good???

 

-If I enjoy M-Pro so much....should I check out some Lucha?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"-Is Toryumon even any good?"

 

No.  Compared to MPro 96-7 stuff, it is not so great.  Worth a look if you are curious as to who is who and what all the hype is about, but don't waste your money on too many of the repetitive TV blocks.

 

"-Don't you love M-Pro to? *sigh*"

 

Yes

 

"-Should I buy all the Junior action I can get before buying the heavy stuff?"

 

I would say that you should vary it up so you don't overdoes on one of anything.

 

"-Is NOAH any good???"

 

What is the definition of "Good"?  Is it that last AJPW PPV was "good" or Mutoh is not "good"?

 

"-If I enjoy M-Pro so much....should I check out some Lucha?"

 

Of course, but don't go in expecting the type of formula MPRO has with their matches in Lucha.

 

Tim

[Guest HopeSpot]

I still like Mutoh so I'm definetly in the minority.

 

"is NOAH any good"

 

Yes and no. They've had their share of decent matches but I wouldn't go out of my way to see it if you're into juniors.And that's really all I have to say.

[Guest MRFTW]

"No.  Compared to MPro 96-7 stuff, it is not so great"

 

Bah, don't listen to him. Toryumon kicks quite alot of ass actually, T2P as well. If you like the m-pro stuff then you should like Toryumon.

 

I'll also recomend something most people here probably wouldn't if you're looking for hvy weight/non jr. stuff and that's FMW. Some people like it, some people don't. Some people think it's all just barbed wire garbage matches but actually it's not.

 

To be specific i'd say pick up the story of the F stage 3 Best Bouts commercial tape.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Tim: "No.  Compared to MPro 96-7 stuff, it is not so great"

 

MRFTW: "Bah, don't listen to him. Toryumon kicks quite alot of ass actually, T2P as well. If you like the m-pro stuff then you should like Toryumon."

 

Give me the best Toryumon matches and then give me the best MPro matches and it is night and day.  Crazy Max is a bastard stepchild of KDX.  M2K are cool, but they only have one worker the at the calliber of KDX.  The Home Team guys are fun even they have the many problems that run rampant in the Toryumon product.

 

Dragon Kid is Yakushiji and Yakushiji did everything just as fun with the arm drags and headscissors.

 

Plus, as a fan of Junior work that actually makes sense and it not highspot-a-rama, the Toryumon singles matches are dog crap to NJPW Juniors best.  Give me Delphin v Taka (2x from 1996) for Taka being able to reign in a weaker worker in Delphin any day over the Magnum Tokyo garbage of today.  

 

I still like Toryumon but when there is so much more better stuff out there to get, it won't get my money for a while.

 

And T2P, don't get me started.  To say it simply, it is just too early to tell what the hell is going on there.

 

Tim

[Guest MRFTW]

Well you are right in calling Toryumon "(for the most part atleast), "highspot-a-rama". But if you're gonna do a spotfest you might as well do a kick ass one and that's what they usually do. I haven't had as much fun watching most tapes i've bought recently as I did watching the Toryumon stuff I just got.

 

"And T2P, don't get me started."

 

Are you saying you don't like/wouldn't recomend getting the T2P shows then? If so i'd like to hear why.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Well you are right in calling Toryumon "(for the most part atleast), "highspot-a-rama". But if you're gonna do a spotfest you might as well do a kick ass one and that's what they usually do. I haven't had as much fun watching most tapes i've bought recently as I did watching the Toryumon stuff I just got."

 

Thing is, MPro in 1996/97 with KDX v Sasuke Sekigun was just as highspot-a-rific as Toryumon (maybe even more so) but also had a far deeper story and development to it.  

 

"Are you saying you don't like/wouldn't recomend getting the T2P shows then? If so i'd like to hear why."

 

I never said I don't recommend watching them but the hype machine makes them out to be the second coming.  Kind of like the WWF rubes proclaiming the WWF product the most superior world wide.

 

I have seen the first 2 shows and have been impressed by these rookies doing fluid mat work but two key elements are missing for me.

 

First, the essential story telling aspect of wrestling is missing from these matches.  The first match on the 1/02 show was good storywise with the arm being worked over (I think, can't remember too well).  But other than that, I haven't seen anything that really impresses me story wise.  KDX v Sasuke Sekigun told a vast story, Liger v anyone told impressive stories...but these guys, with all their flash and good in ring work, failed to do that so far.

 

I don't hold that against them since they are only rookies, but the current level of praise they are getting seems a bit high to me.

 

Second, the guys are great on the mat.  But once they get off of the mat, they look somewhat lost and very akward.  The suplexes they throw look strange and out of place after the good mat work...the strikes look odd.  If they stayed on the mat the whole match, working over body parts and putting the high spots into reflect the body part work, I would be more than happy.  Then again, I would have 1/21/96 Otani v Samurai which I would take all day as opposed to non sensical highspots and flashy mat work for the sake of being flashy.

 

Tim

[Guest Vyce]

First off, with all do respect to our esteemed colleagues here, don't take everything Tim says about Toryumon as gospel.  And don't EVER listen to what Chris has to say, or you'll hate 99.9% of all puro out there (I'm asking for it, I know).

 

My opinion isn't worth much, I'll admit, but I think that I'm a more moderate puro fan so perhaps I'm more in tune to what you might like.

 

Is Toryumon even any good?

 

I think you'll like it.  Maybe not all of it, as compared to M-Pro, but it's certainly not crap.

 

-Don't you love M-Pro to? *sigh*

 

Yes.

 

-Should I buy all the Junior action I can get before buying the heavy stuff?

 

You could, but I would vary it also.

 

-Is NOAH any good???

 

Eh, it's hit and miss.  Sometimes it's pretty good, other times, so-so.  You will probably want to track down all of Marufuji's work though, since you're so into juniors.

 

-If I enjoy M-Pro so much....should I check out some Lucha?

 

Yes!  I'd recommend CMLL, since they've got the best lucha stuff currently.

[Guest HopeSpot]

"You will probably want to track down all of Marufuji's work though, since you're so into juniors."

 

He's over rated but not like Regal over rated so you'll definetly want to pick up his stuff. I always find it funny when people bash Mutoh for being lazy and then praise Regal for all of his greatness.. Regal is living proof that all it takes to get over with the smart crowd is stiffness and token mat wrestling. The last good/great match he had was at the Pillman Memorial Show 2000 and even that was over rated to an extent.

[Guest wolverine]

"-Is Toryumon even any good?"

 

I saw the Toryumon Comes to Japan tape and enjoyed it quite a bit.  Haven't seen anything else though.

 

"-Don't you love M-Pro to? *sigh*"

 

It's not one of my favorite promotions, not that they don't have some great guys there, but I'm just not that interested in it.  I have "These Days" and that's it.  Loved it the first time around, but it doesn't age very well for me.

 

"-Should I buy all the Junior action I can get before buying the heavy stuff?"

 

I started out watching NJ Jrs. and really loved it.  Get as much Liger as possible, it's great stuff.  A few suggestions:

 

3/17/96 Liger vs. Ohtani

2/9/97 Liger vs. Ohtani

2/16/97 Liger vs. Kanemoto (Koji's best match ever IMO)

6/5/97 Kanemoto vs. Samurai (spotfest, some like it, some don't.  I personally am/was a Koji mark, so I got a kick out of it)

6/3/98 Kanemoto vs. Wagner Jr. (awesome technical match, really super work from Wagner).

 

"-Is NOAH any good???"

 

No, it sucks.  It's really sad, because it should be *so* much better than it is.  Too bad Misawa just doesn't know how to book interesting matches.  He's got one diamond in the rough (Marufuji) and one hurt legend (Kobashi). Everyone else is pretty much worthless.  Geez, I miss 90's AJPW.

 

"-If I enjoy M-Pro so much....should I check out some Lucha?"

 

I have no idea, since I don't watch lucha.  I know they are on on Tuesday nights, but I just don't bother watching at this point.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Man there's some varying opinions here. Now I'm all confused...lol.

 

Well I took the extra pocket money I had and bought a tape from TripleCrownTapes.com. I bought Michinoku Pro the Kaientai DX. I know most of the matches will be clipped but it just looked like an awesome tape....and I love Kaientai DX.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Is that KDX tape any good? I'm thinking of getting it myself.

 

Take a break from Juniors and check out some heavys.  Some of the current heavyweights today are guys like Taiyo Kea, Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Jun Akiyama, Yugi Nagata, and Toshiaki Kawada. Some of the better ones from a few years ago are Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, Masahiro Chono, Keiji Mutoh (matter of opinion), and Shinya Hashimoto.

[Guest razazteca]

this Lucha Fanboy would like to shrill CMLL matches:

 

Galavision tv block of March and April matches that feature:

Dr Wanger Jr as Trios champion vs Black Warrior team and vs Tarzan Boy team.

 

Shocker as Semi Completo Campion matches vs Wanger & Tarzan boy are good.

 

Olymico, Atlantis, Negro Casas, Santico usually have great trios matches.....stay away from Los Brazos, especially Super Porky unless you want to see Mideon, Viscera, Baston Booger in tag matches [/sarcasm]

 

When ever the Tijuana boys show up its always fun to watch Rey Misterio Jr, Nicho, Damian 666, Halloween in tag action.

 

AAA

 

Electro Shock vs Hector Garza for the title was suppose to be a good match

 

Los Vipers had some good matches against La Parka and Mascara Sagrada

 

All Mini matches are entertaining they are usually mascots of the main stars such as los vipers, La Parka, Sagrada, Rocky Marvin is the mini for Ricky Marvin etc

[Guest Jubuki]

99.9%  That's awfully strict - one match in 1000, I allegedly like...gee, seems like I've given a lot of praise and a lot of snowflakes to a lot more than 1 in 1000 matches.  All you'd have to do is skim through my reviews and see that.  Then again, don't let facts get in the way - that's the motto round here, right?  You're right, your opinion doesn't amount to much.  Nimrod.

 

Toryumon's OK.  The first few matches are impressive; after a while, they start blending all together and are hard to tell apart because they don't do enough story-wise to differentiate themselves.

 

As for buying Jr. action - no.  Not all of it is good, after all, but that's true about any tape.  Do some work, look around for matches that are praised for the same reasons you like your favorite matches, and get it.

 

NOAH is OK, too.  It's just nowhere close to what AJPW did before it.  Ring is hard to look at, too.  They inherited the same weak midcard and compounded the problem by mishandling No Fear, as well as Akiyama.  Kobashi's injuries haven't helped, either, but they're mostly his own fault.

 

Lucha is a different beast than all the other stuff, but it's the same, too, in its own way.  You just have to, again, do some work, research the rules and taboos, and then think about why things are happening.  That's also true about anything you watch.

[Guest MrDanger]

"Is Toryumon even any good?"

 

Yeah Toryumon is a ton of fun, all the matches do eventually mix into one after a while but you'll love Toryumon at first.

 

 

"Don't you love M-Pro to?"

 

I've liked what I've seen

 

 

"Should I buy all the Junior action I can get before buying the heavy stuff?"

 

It sounds like you've got your foot in the door now, try checking out some heavyweight action now. If you find that you don't like the Heavyweight stuff then stick to what you like, that's what I do.

 

"Is NOAH any good???'

 

NOAH has the potential to be really good but at the moment it's very medicore. The Juniors are worth checking out with the likes of Marufuji and Kanemura really starting to break out. The heavyweights are the problem with NOAH, Jun Akiyama is not motivated while Misawa and Taue are old and banged up. The saving grace could be Takao Omori but unfortunately they go out of their way to bury him.

 

"If I enjoy M-Pro so much....should I check out some Lucha?"

 

Definitely, there's so many similarities to MPW there that you'll almost certainly enjoy it. Stay away from current AAA though, check out current EMLL and maybe some of the mid 90's AAA action.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

*shocked* Did I just hear Jubuki being almost positive?

 

Toryumon's a lot of good fun, they have decent matches with decent highspots and general all-round decent workrate. They dont have any illusions that they are putting out ***** matches, they are just doing what they do, and working hard. Toryumon is the most consistently solid promotion in Japan, easily.

 

M-Pro is great, the little amount I have seen of it that is. I'd like to get all the 96 - 97 stuff in order so i can see progression in KDX vs Sasuke etc. but being in England, it's a little hard to find good resources of puro from people who know whats going on in that area... *sigh*