Dealing with the palestinian question.

[Guest Invader3k]

Every day I tune into the news, and each day a new report of another suicide bombing, targeting Israeli civilians. It is quite routine, and yet the US government continues to hope for peace, almost comically so. Peace seems no closer than it was a year ago, or ten years ago, or forty years ago. It seems clear to me that the Arab world will never be satisfied until all Jews are removed from the Middle East. Yasser Arafat and his allies in the various Arab governments that we fail to recognize as enemies will not give an inch as far as Israeli demands go. Why should Israel be expected to withdraw from Palestinian towns when they continually murder Israeli civilians? Why should Israel withdraw from Ramallah until the murderers of their tourism minister are handed over? Furthermore, Arafat is a terrorist no better than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, and I see no reason why he should not be arrested or assassinated.

 

The Islamic governments of the world are the enemy of the United States. They have made it this way. Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and the Saudis are all allied against us along with Al Quaeda and other Islamic terrorist networks. We have tried to be nice, we have spent our money on their oil, and yet they continue to sponsor terrorism. These radicalist Muslims bent on Jihad are the barbarians at the gates of civilization, and Israel is the frontier.

 

The only solution I can see working, as I have mentioned in previous posts, is the removal of all Palestinians from Israeli land (including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, etc). The Palestinians have shown time and again that they cannot co-exist with their Jewish neighbors. Simply put, the anti-Semitism in the region is too strong. Let the Palestinians move to Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or wherever they like. Those governments have been supportive enough of them in the past. I say the Israelis should give them two or three weeks to move, and then the rest can either be deported or shot. It sounds brutal, but I see no other solution working. One other idea that might be remotely possible is to give the Palestinians their own state after a year free of suicide bombings or other attacks, but this would never happen.

 

Furthermore, the US government must stop giving money to these corrupt Islamic regimes. We need to decrease our dependence on Arab oil _now_. We must develop alternative modes of transportation other than the gasoline powered car, and we should start buying our oil from other sources, such as Russia, or drill for our own until we can be weened off it, once electric cars and other modes of transport become prominent.

 

I realize my viewpoints are unpopular here, but then again, I don't care.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

Seig Heil!

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<The only solution I can see working, as I have mentioned in previous posts, is the removal of all Palestinians from Israeli land (including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, etc). The Palestinians have shown time and again that they cannot co-exist with their Jewish neighbors. Simply put, the anti-Semitism in the region is too strong. Let the Palestinians move to Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or wherever they like. Those governments have been supportive enough of them in the past. I say the Israelis should give them two or three weeks to move, and then the rest can either be deported or shot. It sounds brutal, but I see no other solution working.>>>

 

-The widespread removal of all Palestinians is the last thing anyone with a desire for peace wants to do.  It may sound real easy to divide the world up into those who are with us and those who are against us, but the world is not that black-and-white, and it amazes me that the people who keep suggesting this solution cannot see the violent response that would occur, not only from Palestine, but from much of the Islamic world, if this were attempted. If Israel attempted to do this, then they would deserve any retribution brough against them.  I know how that may sound, but that is how the process of history works.  Violence will be met with more violence.

 In reality, there is no easy solution, but amazingly, the U.S government for once realizes that they cannot just blindly support Israel.  There are two sides to this equation that need to be addressed.  By supporting a plan to remove all Palestinians from their home land, a plan in which many innocent people would be hurt or killed, that does not make you any better than a suicide bomber with no respect for Israeli life.  The Palestinans are not barbarians.  They are human beings, just like us.  If you don't agree with that, then Sieg Heil indeed......

 

<<<One other idea that might be remotely possible is to give the Palestinians their own state after a year free of suicide bombings or other attacks, but this would never happen.>>>

 

-Never say never, but this has been going on for more than fifty years now (you could also say this goes all the way back to the Crusades) with no end in sight.  It's either going to take a hell of a miracle or a hell of an effort to bring some kind of lasting peace to the Middle East.  One can hope, but one has to also be realistic (and by realistic, I don't mean bombing the problem away)...

 

<<<Furthermore, the US government must stop giving money to these corrupt Islamic regimes. We need to decrease our dependence on Arab oil _now_. We must develop alternative modes of transportation other than the gasoline powered car, and we should start buying our oil from other sources, such as Russia, or drill for our own until we can be weened off it, once electric cars and other modes of transport become prominent.>>>

 

-I agree with this 110%.  Only good things can come from dropping the Great American Addiction to Oil......

 

<<<I realize my viewpoints are unpopular here, but then again, I don't care.>>>

 

-Actually, your viewpoints might get some sympathy around here, but I'm glad you "don't care".  If you can't stick to your own guns (while still keeping open to the opinions of others), then you are lost.......

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Every day I tune into the news, and each day a new report of another suicide bombing, targeting Israeli civilians. It is quite routine, and yet the US government continues to hope for peace, almost comically so. Peace seems no closer than it was a year ago, or ten years ago, or forty years ago. It seems clear to me that the Arab world will never be satisfied until all Jews are removed from the Middle East. Yasser Arafat and his allies in the various Arab governments that we fail to recognize as enemies will not give an inch as far as Israeli demands go. Why should Israel be expected to withdraw from Palestinian towns when they continually murder Israeli civilians? Why should Israel withdraw from Ramallah until the murderers of their tourism minister are handed over? Furthermore, Arafat is a terrorist no better than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, and I see no reason why he should not be arrested or assassinated.

 

The Islamic governments of the world are the enemy of the United States. They have made it this way. Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and the Saudis are all allied against us along with Al Quaeda and other Islamic terrorist networks. We have tried to be nice, we have spent our money on their oil, and yet they continue to sponsor terrorism. These radicalist Muslims bent on Jihad are the barbarians at the gates of civilization, and Israel is the frontier.

 

The only solution I can see working, as I have mentioned in previous posts, is the removal of all Palestinians from Israeli land (including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, etc). The Palestinians have shown time and again that they cannot co-exist with their Jewish neighbors. Simply put, the anti-Semitism in the region is too strong. Let the Palestinians move to Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or wherever they like. Those governments have been supportive enough of them in the past. I say the Israelis should give them two or three weeks to move, and then the rest can either be deported or shot. It sounds brutal, but I see no other solution working. One other idea that might be remotely possible is to give the Palestinians their own state after a year free of suicide bombings or other attacks, but this would never happen.

 

Furthermore, the US government must stop giving money to these corrupt Islamic regimes. We need to decrease our dependence on Arab oil _now_. We must develop alternative modes of transportation other than the gasoline powered car, and we should start buying our oil from other sources, such as Russia, or drill for our own until we can be weened off it, once electric cars and other modes of transport become prominent.

 

I realize my viewpoints are unpopular here, but then again, I don't care.

If America did what your suggesting than they'd be no better than Hitler or any other of the monsters of history.

[Guest TJH]

Hmm, I'm not sure I can quite agree with this.

It wouldn't be fair to suggest that the governments of Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt etc. are all against America. It is the Islamic faith.

Basically, this is just Islam Vs Christianity/Judaism.

People try to say that Islam is all about peace.

Now, I don't see Hindu's fighting holy wars, Christian's attacking mosque's, Buddhist's blowing themselves up. All the main security problems we have today are to do with Islam.

Call me racist, but there is the truth.

The Arabs have been blaying for blood for 50 years now, since their invasion of Israel was repelled. What's going on in Judea/Samaria is unbelievable. The Arabs are 15th century people in the 21st century. They are preoccupied with the idea of Jihad and destroying the west. They will probably even admit that. What has to happen?

Israel should probably pull out of Judea/Samaria, build a wall i.e. Berlin Wall, and wait for the terrorist groups to turn on each other (which they will), and then move back in.

The other question is Iraq. We saw what appeasment did with Hitler. We also saw at the end of the Cold War, that one president, Ronald Reagan, had the balls to say "Bring it on Ivan", and the Soviets collapsed, as they could not compete. You have to stand up to these people. Set deadlines for Saddam to let in weapons inspectors and if he says no, invade. During the Clinton era the U.S was apathetic to evil.  Someone has to take a stand. We better justtake that stand before they get their hands on nukes.

[Guest]

<Every day I tune into the news, and each day a new report of another suicide bombing, targeting Israeli civilians. It is quite routine, and yet the US government continues to hope for peace, almost comically so. Peace seems no closer than it was a year ago, or ten years ago, or forty years ago.>

 

Well that's wrong. 2, 10 even 40 years ago Israel had a peace offer on the table which the Arabs refused. Also this is the first time with had in effect a civil war in Israel/ Occupied Terrorities where as before it was external wars against Arab states. Peace is far more remote today than ever before.

 

<It seems clear to me that the Arab world will never be satisfied until all Jews are removed from the Middle East. Yasser Arafat and his allies in the various Arab governments that we fail to recognize as enemies will not give an inch as far as Israeli demands go.>

 

If your talking about their "gut feeling" then your right. I have no doubt that most Arabs are anti-semtics. However so was Nixon and he loved Kissinger. The Arab governments have disreagred enough of their religion, etc to disreagred their anti-semitism if it suits them. However Israel at the moment is to useful as a safety valve on internal discontent in those countries, so only when the Arab countries become stable democrices will Israel be entirely safe.

 

<Why should Israel be expected to withdraw from Palestinian towns when they continually murder Israeli civilians?>

 

<Why should Israel withdraw from Ramallah until the murderers of their tourism minister are handed over?>

 

If someone kills say you mother will the law of America allow you to go and find that murder and kill him/her? No it won't,there as to be due process to stop a desent into anarchy. It's exactly the same here, there are ways to fight a "war" against terrorists as the RUC proved in Northen Ireland that does not invole destorying civilan houses or have rumours of a possible massacre around your neck.

 

<Furthermore, Arafat is a terrorist no better than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, and I see no reason why he should not be arrested or assassinated.>

 

First off Saddam Hussein is not a Terrorist he is a Head of a Soverign State that America gave nearly hallf a billion dollars to in the eighties. You and others labeling him so just underlines how this is increasingly just being used as an insult against anti-american forces.

 

On the assassination issue not only would that break US law, further intensify the fighting in Israel it would also grant Arafat's wish to be a martyr, and he have far more importance as a symbol as he now has in life.

 

On the trial issue. Look at the current situation with Slobodan Milovesic. He is running rings around his prosuctors just as Gorbbels (I think) did before him, further increasing his popularity in Serbia. Both Bin Ladein and Arafat would do the same further inflamming muslim opinion.

 

Araft was a terrorist just the same as the new Coloniel Gerry Adams and the Northen Ireland Education Minster Martin McGunnesis was. Although it's unpleasent if you offer a big enough carrot then most terrorists will make peace, christ that's how The Republic of Ireland was formed.

 

<The Islamic governments of the world are the enemy of the United States. They have made it this way. Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and the Saudis are all allied against us along with Al Quaeda and other Islamic terrorist networks.>

 

Oh dear, oh dear why do I begin. First off Syria, Lebanon or Iraq are not Islamist regimes but secular Arab nationlist dictatorships. Yes time to time they drap themself in the Islamist flag but it's just playing the crowd.

 

They is no suggestion that Egypt or even Saudi Arabia directly fund Islamist terrorism. What is true espeacilly of Saudi Arabia is that they are part of the "swamp of terrorism". They fund Islamist Muslim Schools across the world spreading the Whaddism brand of Islam. They also furstrate their local populations with their decadance to the extent that they see Islamist Terrorists as virtous and uncorruptabal.

 

<We have tried to be nice, we have spent our money on their oil, and yet they continue to sponsor terrorism.>

 

You do far more than that. The two radical Arab muslim countries you prop up. Without American money the Egyption or the Saudi regimes would collapse and in their whack would either leave America holding a colony (which wouldn't be that bad idea) or facing a trully radical Islamist regime.  

 

<These radicalist Muslims bent on Jihad are the barbarians at the gates of civilization, and Israel is the frontier.>

 

Two years ago despite finding the rhetoric a bit strong I would have agreed with you. However Israel have forgotten the eternal rule "Those who fight monsters must make sure not to become one", although the fact that it's taken Israel 50 years of provaction to finally go insane shows the true face of the Israeli people.

 

<The only solution I can see working, as I have mentioned in previous posts, is the removal of all Palestinians from Israeli land (including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, etc). The Palestinians have shown time and again that they cannot co-exist with their Jewish neighbors.>

 

Bullshit! The greatest thing about Israel is how they have been able to intergrat Christian and Muslim Arabs and give them a proper place in society (some are even MPs). That is something to admire and treasure not throw away.

 

Although I have had sympahthy with Population exchanges that have happened in the past (post WW2 Czechoslovika, Poland and Israel) the fact is you've got to live in the real world. If Israel even tried they could easily have a war with the Arab countries (and rememeber their are American troops in Muslim countries that could become under threat) and would almost certainlly face sanctions from the EU and maybe the UN. And America would be under untoreable pressure to abadon Israel.

 

<Simply put, the anti-Semitism in the region is too strong. Let the Palestinians move to Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or wherever they like. Those governments have been supportive enough of them in the past.>

 

Both Egypt and espeacilly Jordan have had peaceful realtions with Isreal for 20plus years.

 

<I say the Israelis should give them two or three weeks to move, and then the rest can either be deported or shot. It sounds brutal, but I see no other solution working.>

 

You mean like what they did in 1948? Yeah I see where you coming from as that didn't leave a legacy of hate and violence.

 

<One other idea that might be remotely possible is to give the Palestinians their own state after a year free of suicide bombings or other attacks, but this would never happen.>

 

No it wouldn't because some groups like Hamas want the absoulte destruction of Israel and won't settle for just a Palenstinain state.

 

<Furthermore, the US government must stop giving money to these corrupt Islamic regimes. We need to decrease our dependence on Arab oil _now_.We must develop alternative modes of transportation other than the gasoline powered car, and we should start buying our oil from other sources, such as Russia, or drill for our own until we can be weened off it, once electric cars and other modes of transport become prominent.>

 

Yeah your pretty correct on this point. Of course I would just make sure I underline I'm a "limp-wristed European Lefty" by telling you to follow France's lead and use Nuclear power. Plus it should be noticed that the Bush adminastration is (or saying it is) invested in finding alternative fuels right now.

 

 

<I realize my viewpoints are unpopular here, but then again, I don't care.>

 

 

Oh come on! Their may be the two lefties on here and some modertate right wingers but the vast marjoity will support you.

 

Lots of Love

Will

xxx

[Guest DrTom]

"Why should Israel be expected to withdraw from Palestinian towns when they continually murder Israeli civilians?"

 

They shouldn't be, but a lot of people still expect it.  Palestinians are constantly played up as the poor, scrappy underdogs against the monolithic Israeli military machine.  In reality, the Palestinians are worthless thugs and terrorists who still exist at all because Israel has a good degree of patience.

 

"The only solution I can see working, as I have mentioned in previous posts, is the removal of all Palestinians from Israeli land (including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, etc)."

 

I have to agree here.  Peace negotiations won't work; there is ample evidence of that.  Besides, why waste time negotiating with terrorists?  Tell them to get out, give them some time to comply, and shoot those who don't in the head.  Needless to say, my patience with the Palestinians is at its end, and I never had any sympathy for them.

 

"Furthermore, the US government must stop giving money to these corrupt Islamic regimes. We need to decrease our dependence on Arab oil _now_."

 

Agreed on both counts.  The first statement is obvious; there is no reason at all we should give one fucking cent to countries that hate us and would like to contribute to our destruction.  As for oil, we need to do more drilling up north, which is a perfectly feasible plan that leftist environmentalists have taken great pains to piss all over.  We should also monitor the situation in Venezuela, too.  

 

Of course, if Israel gets really pissed and just goes off on the Middle East, we won't have to worry about buying oil from our enemies anymore.

[Guest DrTom]

"The widespread removal of all Palestinians is the last thing anyone with a desire for peace wants to do."

 

While it's a problematic short-term solution, it's the best long-term one.  Peace in the short term is better than what we have now, but long term is what should be the goal.  If you have to lose a battle to win that war, I say it's worth it.

 

"If Israel attempted to do this, then they would deserve any retribution brough against them."

 

Interestingly enough, Israel's neighbors would love to see its destruction, but they're all too cowardly to make a serious attempt at bringing it about.  All that would happen is more terrorism, just from a different bunch of cowardly fuckheads.  And if Israel decided they were mad as hell and weren't going to take it anymore... well, I think you'd see a swift and severe drop in the Muslim population over there.

 

"By supporting a plan to remove all Palestinians from their home land, a plan in which many innocent people would be hurt or killed, that does not make you any better than a suicide bomber with no respect for Israeli life."

 

They've shown repeatedly that they cannot coexist with Israel.  I don't know where you get this idea that almost all Palestinians are innocent and peace-loving, but it's a damn foolish one.  How many of them do you think are involved in the terror campaign against Israel?  How many support it with money and other resources?  How many willingly harbor the terrorists?

 

"The Palestinans are not barbarians.  They are human beings, just like us."

 

Oh why can't we all just get along!?  Maybe if we went over there and led everyone in a big sing-along of "Kum By Yah," then passed around the peace pipe, it would all be better.  Come on.  You encourage everyone else to put aside their preconceptions and think, so I'm going to ask you to forget about the liberal dogma and look at this rationally.  The Palestinians repeatedly and deliberately target ISraeli civilians.  They do this despite knowing where the government is located.  They have attempted to use emergency medical vehicles to deliver their bombs.  They have rigged secondary explosions to maim and kill rescue workers.  They target areas with the most people packed into the least space, like restaurants, coffee houses, and bus depots.  They ARE barbarians, Chris; those are the actions of a sick, evil bunch of savages, not the actions of human beings.  You can go on about the poor oppressed people being denied their homeland all you want, but until they stop acting like vile terrorists, I won't give two pins if Israel shoots every single one of them in the head.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

The biggest single terrorist attack in the history of Israel was the bombing of the King David hotel, which killed over 140 people. Who perpetrated it? Zionist terrorists.

 

The most significant death in Israeli history was the assassination of Yhitzak Rabin. Who killed him? A jewish extremist.

 

One can continue on this way (and also note that 3 times as many Palestinians have died in the latest conflicts, so much for Israel's "we don't target civilians" crap) and see that the Israelis are just as much of a problem as the Palestinians.

 

And one final interesting thought. Before the west decided to use their muscle and create the state of Israel because they felt sorry/guilty about WW2, the idea of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine had already been considered by another government. That government was Nazi Germany, who sent Adoph Eichmann to Palestine to examine the posibility of deporting all the Jews of Europe to there (basically building the world's biggest ghetto). They dropped the idea in favor of the Final Solution.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Every day I tune into the news, and each day a new report of another suicide bombing, targeting Israeli civilians. It is quite routine, and yet the US government continues to hope for peace, almost comically so. Peace seems no closer than it was a year ago, or ten years ago, or forty years ago. It seems clear to me that the Arab world will never be satisfied until all Jews are removed from the Middle East.>>>

 

 

That, likely, is the case.

 

 

<<<Yasser Arafat and his allies in the various Arab governments that we fail to recognize as enemies will not give an inch as far as Israeli demands go. Why should Israel be expected to withdraw from Palestinian towns when they continually murder Israeli civilians? Why should Israel withdraw from Ramallah until the murderers of their tourism minister are handed over? Furthermore, Arafat is a terrorist no better than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, and I see no reason why he should not be arrested or assassinated.>>>

 

 

I don't agree with assassination (if these men are killed during a miitary campaign, so be it---but I don't like the idea of something being planned SOLELY to kill them). It's a really bad idea.

 

 

<<<The Islamic governments of the world are the enemy of the United States. They have made it this way. Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and the Saudis are all allied against us along with Al Quaeda and other Islamic terrorist networks. We have tried to be nice, we have spent our money on their oil, and yet they continue to sponsor terrorism. These radicalist Muslims bent on Jihad are the barbarians at the gates of civilization, and Israel is the frontier. >>>

 

 

I don't disagree much thus far. The Muslim gov'ts in that area do hate us and we should definitely stop sending them any money. And the Israel/Palestine conflict is much bigger than just a battle between those two groups.

 

 

<<<The only solution I can see working, as I have mentioned in previous posts, is the removal of all Palestinians from Israeli land (including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, etc). The Palestinians have shown time and again that they cannot co-exist with their Jewish neighbors. Simply put, the anti-Semitism in the region is too strong. Let the Palestinians move to Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or wherever they like. Those governments have been supportive enough of them in the past.>>>

 

 

Can't agree. This is a terrible idea that will only lead to MORE problems. We don't want Arafat out of Palestine because, at the very least, we can keep an eye on him. We don't want to see the Palestinian people made to suffer because, while many of them do support the evil of homicide bombers (I'll go with Bush on the new term), they don't ALL support them and it is criminally unfair to punish everybody for the actions of some.

 

 

<<<I say the Israelis should give them two or three weeks to move, and then the rest can either be deported or shot. It sounds brutal, but I see no other solution working. One other idea that might be remotely possible is to give the Palestinians their own state after a year free of suicide bombings or other attacks, but this would never happen.>>>

 

 

The first option is a no-go. It would be an atrocity and oe I, honestly, don't think Israel would want to do. They KNOW what it's like to be herded up and slaughtered. I'd love to believe that they wouldn't do the same thing themselves.

 

I do agree with the 2nd idea, though. Don't give Palestine one inch until they can go one year without a homicide bomber.

 

 

<<<Furthermore, the US government must stop giving money to these corrupt Islamic regimes. We need to decrease our dependence on Arab oil _now_. We must develop alternative modes of transportation other than the gasoline powered car, and we should start buying our oil from other sources, such as Russia, or drill for our own until we can be weened off it, once electric cars and other modes of transport become prominent.>>>

 

 

I agree with all of that. We shouldn't give a cent to the Saudis. Heck, we should've stopped giving them money years ago. Their spread of Wahhabism is one of the more destabilizing actions in recen memory.

 

 

<<<I realize my viewpoints are unpopular here, but then again, I don't care. >>>

 

 

Well, I don't agree with all of them. It seems you're speaking more from frustration (which I can appreciate) than anything else.

           -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

The biggest single terrorist attack in the history of Israel was the bombing of the King David hotel, which killed over 140 people. Who perpetrated it? Zionist terrorists.>>>

 

 

As irrelevant a point to the discussion as can possibly be made.

 

 

<<<The most significant death in Israeli history was the assassination of Yhitzak Rabin. Who killed him? A jewish extremist.>>>

 

 

Also completely and totally irrelevant. It'd be like mentioning that JFK was killed by an American when discussing Operation Anaconda.

 

 

<<<One can continue on this way (and also note that 3 times as many Palestinians have died in the latest conflicts, so much for Israel's "we don't target civilians" crap)>>>

 

 

It's not Israel's fault that a) the Palestinian homicide bombers aren't the most competent people out there and b) the terrorists hide amongst the people.

 

EVERY death in this altercation is the fault of the Palestinian terrorists. Every single one.

 

 

<<<and see that the Israelis are just as much of a problem as the Palestinians.>>>

 

 

Except that the stories of Israeli citizens walking into major gatherings during Muslim hoidays and blowing up a bunch of people aren't quite as legion.

 

 

<<<And one final interesting thought. Before the west decided to use their muscle and create the state of Israel because they felt sorry/guilty about WW2, the idea of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine had already been considered by another government. That government was Nazi Germany, who sent Adoph Eichmann to Palestine to examine the posibility of deporting all the Jews of Europe to there (basically building the world's biggest ghetto). They dropped the idea in favor of the Final Solution. >>>

 

 

Again, another point completely irrelevant to the discussion.

                     -=Mike

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<"By supporting a plan to remove all Palestinians from their home land, a plan in which many innocent people would be hurt or killed, that does not make you any better than a suicide bomber with no respect for Israeli life."

 

They've shown repeatedly that they cannot coexist with Israel.  I don't know where you get this idea that almost all Palestinians are innocent and peace-loving, but it's a damn foolish one.  How many of them do you think are involved in the terror campaign against Israel?  How many support it with money and other resources?  How many willingly harbor the terrorists?>>>

 

-Can you tell me the exact number of Palestinians who support terrorism, or is it easier for you to label them all under one blanket and condemn all of them as less than human because it fits your "good guy. bad guy" world-view.  Doc, this isn't some Western movie.  It's real life.  I'm not denying that there is support for terrorism in Palestine, but it seems you can't recognize the fact that innocent people do exist in Palestine, and these people need our help rather than our scorn.  If you would rather bomb them all away, then shame on you, and shame on the exact attitude I can't stand among some Americans who think everything can be solved just like a game of "cowboys and indians."

 

<<<"The Palestinans are not barbarians.  They are human beings, just like us."

 

Oh why can't we all just get along!?  Maybe if we went over there and led everyone in a big sing-along of "Kum By Yah," then passed around the peace pipe, it would all be better.  Come on.  You encourage everyone else to put aside their preconceptions and think, so I'm going to ask you to forget about the liberal dogma and look at this rationally.  The Palestinians repeatedly and deliberately target ISraeli civilians.  They do this despite knowing where the government is located.  They have attempted to use emergency medical vehicles to deliver their bombs.  They have rigged secondary explosions to maim and kill rescue workers.  They target areas with the most people packed into the least space, like restaurants, coffee houses, and bus depots.  They ARE barbarians, Chris; those are the actions of a sick, evil bunch of savages, not the actions of human beings.  You can go on about the poor oppressed people being denied their homeland all you want, but until they stop acting like vile terrorists, I won't give two pins if Israel shoots every single one of them in the head.>>>

 

-The moment you deny the humanity of others, no matter what their actions, you become no better than a terrorist.  I will stick to that point to the day I die.  And as Hogan Made Wrestling pointed out, Israel is not exactly innocent either in the long history of this conflict. Every suicide bomber they are a victim of is a direct result of many of the things Hogan pointed out.  That is how history works.  Everything is connected.  It is a cycle of violence with no winners and a lot of losers.  It amazes me that the "big bad evil" governments of the US and Israel have enough smarts to realize that a wholescale removal of Palestinians would be disastrous and very dangerous, and yet here you are, trumpeting this plan as some final solution of your own, quite literally calling for the extermination/removal of all Palestinains if they don't behave to your fancy Western ideals.  Doc, I have looked at this situation very rationally, and the last thing that is needed is more violence.  You seem like a intelligent guy, so it amazes me you can fall for this "good guy, bad guy" crap that everyone else spews in order to make the world more comfortable.  It may make your world more comfortable, but you can't expect those dispossessed by your comfort to just quietly go away.  Christ, you guys call me naive......

[Guest cdstunner66]

Does anyone really think that sending Powell to meet with these people and tell them to play nice will make any difference? Simply put, peace between the Isrealis and the Palestinians is not going to happen because someone told them to stop fighting. The Isrealis have a claim to the land and so do the Palestians, neither of them want the other around. The difference is the Isrealis have been going after the military targets (if you can call terrorists military) and the Palestinians have been going after whoever they damn well please. If you want to look at this from a historical perspective, ask yourself, who was there first? The Jews? Well, they were given their ancestral homeland, which they had basicly been expelled from many times throughout history, after Hitler tried to wipe them out. The Palestinians? They were always there, but, weren't they also Jews before the advent of Islam? So let's take religion as the base of the conflict, which it really is. A lot of the Islamic fundamentalists love to point to history and say "Look at what the west has done to us. They had the Crusades, they forced their culture on us, etc." OK, but weren't the Crusades an attempt to reclaim the birthplace of Christianity? Where do the Jews fit into that? Didn't the Muslims conquer all of Northern Africa and most of Spain, as well as the majority of the islands in the Med? Yes they did. So using history as a reason for their actions does not help the muslim cause. So back to Isreal vs. the Palestinians, when Isreal was formed by the UN, what was called Palestine was essentially a region, not a country. There was no true government to speak of. The Palestinians were the political equivalent of squatters. Squatters who had been there forever, but squatters nonetheless. If there was a real government in place in the region at the time, I doubt the Isreali state would have been formed as it is. So once again, I ask you, who should be there? The answer, the Isrealis. IMO, the Isrealis should be allowed to beat the terrorists down. They have to live there, it's their fight. Not ours.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

This all could of been avoided if the Palestinian would of accepted the same deal the Isreali's took in 1948. There own country, and having NATO run Jerusalem.

[Guest DrTom]

"Can you tell me the exact number of Palestinians who support terrorism, or is it easier for you to label them all under one blanket and condemn all of them as less than human because it fits your "good guy. bad guy" world-view."

 

Right back atcha, baby: can you tell me the exact number of Palestinians who don't support terrorism, or is it easier for you to label them all under one blanket and proclaim them innocent because it fits your "brotherhood of man" world view?  I can't give you hard numbers anymore than you can give them to me.  What I CAN say, though, is that Palestine has a long and bloody history of terrorism against Israel, and I can't recall too many important-type Palestinians doing anything to prevent or deter it.  I said in the other Israel/Palestine thread that Palestinian civilians are far more likely than their Israeli counterparts to support and/or be involved with terrorism, and I stick to that assertion.

 

"The moment you deny the humanity of others, no matter what their actions, you become no better than a terrorist."

 

Their actions speak for them.  They want to act like a bunch of lawless, destructive savages without a care for anyone else.  Those are not the actions and agendas of a human being, Chris; they are the actions and agendas of a vile, evil terrorist.  I'm sorry that simple conclusion conflicts with your liberalism so, but your denial of it doesn't make it any less true.

 

"Israel is not exactly innocent either in the long history of this conflict."

 

Of course they're not, but this argument has exaclty as much relevance as your point that America isn't innocent when talking about terrorist attacks.  No country is innocent, Chris, and to think one is would be naive.  However, Israel is a LOT less guilty than Palestine.

 

" It amazes me that the "big bad evil" governments of the US and Israel have enough smarts to realize that a wholescale removal of Palestinians would be disastrous and very dangerous, and yet here you are, trumpeting this plan as some final solution of your own, quite literally calling for the extermination/removal of all Palestinains if they don't behave to your fancy Western ideals."

 

They're concerned with being diplomatic, or at least presenting the appearance of such.  I'm not.  They're concerned with appearing fair to the Palestinians and their plight.  I'm not.  If you want a more cohesive plan, with a little less provocation, this is what I would propose: Palestine must not initiate any terrorist attacks against Israel for 120 days.  If they can do that, then they will be presented with an offer similar to the one Arafat walked out on a few years ago, and told to actually *negotiate* this time.  If they can't go the 120 days, then they have 14 days to evacuate.  Those that are left behind are shot.  That is the last microshred of patience I have for them.  Give them one more chance (because they've had plenty already), and if they screw it up, fuck 'em.  They made the bed, now let them lie in it.  Or die in it.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<"Can you tell me the exact number of Palestinians who support terrorism, or is it easier for you to label them all under one blanket and condemn all of them as less than human because it fits your "good guy. bad guy" world-view."

 

Right back atcha, baby: can you tell me the exact number of Palestinians who don't support terrorism, or is it easier for you to label them all under one blanket and proclaim them innocent because it fits your "brotherhood of man" world view?  I can't give you hard numbers anymore than you can give them to me.  What I CAN say, though, is that Palestine has a long and bloody history of terrorism against Israel, and I can't recall too many important-type Palestinians doing anything to prevent or deter it.  I said in the other Israel/Palestine thread that Palestinian civilians are far more likely than their Israeli counterparts to support and/or be involved with terrorism, and I stick to that assertion.>>>

 

-Fine, let's both agree that within the disputed borders of Palestine, there are terrorists and there are innocent civilians.  Both represent Palestine, but neither represents it exclusively.  From that logic, Israel is not only justified in attempting to remove terrorists who have struck at them, they are justified in removing a part of the Palestnian population that is causing more harm than good for both Isreal and for the innocent Palestinians who are simply trying to survive.  Nowhere in this logic should every Palestinian be condemned to be removed from their home at the threat of being murdered.  And as for the likelihood that Palestinian citizens are more likely to support terrorism than Isreali citizens, you have to also put yourself in the eyes of an angry Palestinian, who views everything Isreal does as "terrorist."  It's all relative, Doc.  No one's right in this situation except those who want peace, and the forced removal of Palestinains WILL NOT lead to any type of lasting peace....

 

<<<"The moment you deny the humanity of others, no matter what their actions, you become no better than a terrorist."

 

Their actions speak for them.  They want to act like a bunch of lawless, destructive savages without a care for anyone else.  Those are not the actions and agendas of a human being, Chris; they are the actions and agendas of a vile, evil terrorist.  I'm sorry that simple conclusion conflicts with your liberalism so, but your denial of it doesn't make it any less true.>>>

 

-A full understanding of the human condition, which seems to be escaping you, shows us that violence is very human.  People backed up against a wall, or people who percieve that the are backed up against a wall, with no way out of their situation, will on instinct act in a violent manner.  As humans have the ability to love unconditionally, they also have the ability to hate unconditionally, and out of this hatred will naturally come violence. There's nothing sub-human about it. Frantz Fanon wrote all about this in his book "The Wretched of the Earth", which I highly recommend to anyone here simply because it will put you, the possesed, right into the eyes and hearts of the dispossessed, or those who can be easily ignored.  These suicide bombers are real tragic in the way they have let religion and politics shape the way they view the world, but underneath everything, they are human beings.  If you continue to want to deny anyone their humanity, then I feel real sorry for ya Doc, and it justifies every complaint I make towards people who insist on viewing the world in one, cold-hearted way....

 

<<<" It amazes me that the "big bad evil" governments of the US and Israel have enough smarts to realize that a wholescale removal of Palestinians would be disastrous and very dangerous, and yet here you are, trumpeting this plan as some final solution of your own, quite literally calling for the extermination/removal of all Palestinains if they don't behave to your fancy Western ideals."

 

They're concerned with being diplomatic, or at least presenting the appearance of such.  I'm not.  They're concerned with appearing fair to the Palestinians and their plight.  I'm not.  If you want a more cohesive plan, with a little less provocation, this is what I would propose: Palestine must not initiate any terrorist attacks against Israel for 120 days.  If they can do that, then they will be presented with an offer similar to the one Arafat walked out on a few years ago, and told to actually *negotiate* this time.  If they can't go the 120 days, then they have 14 days to evacuate.  Those that are left behind are shot.  That is the last microshred of patience I have for them.  Give them one more chance (because they've had plenty already), and if they screw it up, fuck 'em.>>>

 

-I want you to tell me exactly what you would think would happen if Israel was forced into the second pat of this plan (beacuse I'm all for the first part).  You know Doc, not to sound like I'm in sixth grade or anything, but if you glance upwards, you'll see that The MikeSC also agrees that the forced removal of Palestinains is perhaps the worst possible solution to the problems in the Middle East, so how does it feel to be the extremist for once?

 

<<<They made the bed, now let them lie in it.  Or die in it.>>>

 

-That's either really fucking witty or the kind of joke your sterotypical "stupid American" would make.  Or it's both.....

[Guest]

Fanon is almost as annoying and dishonest as Chomsky, and don't even get me started on Sartre's preachy, holier-than-thou bullshit in the preface... but apart from that I have to agree with Chris this time. The terrorists aren't inhuman; no human is - that's merely a comforting turn of phrase to make ourselves feel good. Humanity is not the same as humanism. And our principles demand that we treat terrorists better than they treat others. "Liberty and justice for all" isn't just a phrase to which we can pay lip service when it's convenient, and toss on the back burner when it isn't. It defines our country and we have a responsibility to uphold it, no matter what we and our allies must endure as a result.

 

Given all that, I still agree with the flavour of Tom's solutions. The President said "Enough is enough," and I couldn't agree more. The Palestinians, and yes, the Israelis too, have had their chance. They've had countless chances. They have chosen the worst paths, not the best - the Palestinians commit terrible atrocities against innocents; the Israelis provoke hostilities by sending "settlers" into disputed territory (to be fair, not all settlers are ideologically motivated, and many would move if told to). Neither side has a shred of faith left and to be honest I can't blame either one for that. I can and do blame them (though not equally) for having reached this point in the first place. Whose fault it is, who deserves what, is now irrelevant. The only way we will ever see peace in the Middle East is if the United States military (let's not kid ourselves about what an "international force" means, hey?) goes in and enforces peace. Of course, we'd get a lot of carping self-righteous shit from all sides if we did that, but we get that anyway. It's the history of the nation. Damned if we do, and damned if we don't. We should ignore the shit as usual and try to do something worthwhile in spite of it.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Marney, I'm glad to see you are at least familiar with Fanon.  I was just wondering what you found so dishonest and annoying about what he wrote........

[Guest]

Well, shall we start with his central thesis of the cleansing effects of revolution? According to The Wretched of the Earth, the evils of destruction and suffering are not only balanced but justified by the supposedly inevitable destruction of cultural groups and the utopian society which would presumably arise from the ashes. This is a degenerative and dangerous doctrine I've heard propounded time and again by the naive, the disingenuous, and the wicked, and it is contrary to every principle of the United States, which is based on a progressive and self-correcting model of government. I disagree also with Locke, whose Second Treatise of Government is commonly held to have been a major influence on Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence, when he says that the evils of revolution are preferable to the evils of oppression.

(The American Revolution is obviously not comparable because it didn't consist of the bloody purges characteristic of those in Bolshevik Russia and France.)

Here is another of his remarkably silly statements: "Wealth is not the fruit of labour but the result of organised protected robbery." (Money Talks) On the contrary. The notion of wealth is fundamental to the concept of individual liberty and the limitation of the powers of the state Fanon professed to despise.

Fanon, like many Socialists, was an exploiter and a divider, an apologist and a proselytiser for hate: a man with no solutions beyond apocalypse. His blindly reactive, willfully simplistic philosophies have brought only terror and death to the very people he claimed to serve. He would probably have thought that one million Algerian lives were an acceptable price to pay for freedom from the French. I do not.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

The American Revolution is obviously not comparable because it didn't consist of the bloody purges characteristic of those in Bolshevik Russia and France.

 

Tell that to the Loyalists.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Quote  

The American Revolution is obviously not comparable because it didn't consist of the bloody purges characteristic of those in Bolshevik Russia and France.

 

 

Tell that to the Loyalists. >>>

 

 

The bloodshed in the American Revolution is non-existent when compared to the French and Bolshevik revolutions.

                    -=Mike

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

The bloodshed in the American Revolution is non-existent when compared to the French and Bolshevik revolutions.

 

But it still existed.  Its like saying the modern troubles in Israel are non-existant compared to the Holocaust.

 

There is no reason to deny a blackspot in American History.  Just try to learn from it.  People shouldn't dwell on past mistakes, but we shouldn't try to revise history either.

[Guest]

You're joking, right? There were no purges of the sort that characterised the Bolshevik and French Revolutions; there was scattered mob violence, but as far as I know no one in authority systematically and purposefully targeted Loyalists for death. Furthermore, the Loyalists participated in the war; they had battalions and regiments of their own. Remind me how many of the French aristocracy had a fighting chance against the blood-crazed Reign of Terror?

The American Revolution was no black spot in our history, nor, from what I've read, was the treatment of Loyalists exceptional or abhorrent. Please give me detailed examples and some numbers if I'm wrong.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Quote  

The bloodshed in the American Revolution is non-existent when compared to the French and Bolshevik revolutions.

 

 

But it still existed.  Its like saying the modern troubles in Israel are non-existant compared to the Holocaust.>>>

 

 

No, a more apt comparison would be comparing a guy losing $10 to the Enron fiasco. Both lost money.

 

It's a question of scope. The French and Bolshevik Revolutions featured massive, state-run campaigns of killing their enemies.

 

The American Revolution did not do that, as Marney also comments upon. Heck, the gov't at the time didn't have the money to do that kind of work.

 

 

<<<There is no reason to deny a blackspot in American History.  Just try to learn from it.  People shouldn't dwell on past mistakes, but we shouldn't try to revise history either. >>>

 

 

Actually, a bigger problem is attempted moral relativism when it really doesn't fit.

                           -=Mike

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

You're right.  It wasn't a state sponsored purge, but the American leaders hardly did anything to stop it.  Chalk it up to mob rule I guess.  

 

However, there were definitely factions in the Continentals that attempted to wipe out the Loyalists for no other reason than that they were Loyalists.  The Loyalists didn't even do anything to provoke them.  Some families were massacred and they weren't even Loyalists.  They were just sitting on the fence, going with the flow.  

 

I'm going to stop talking about this.  It really has nothing to do with anything that is happening today (ie. what this topic is about).  The American Revolution was really a nothing war to begin with.  I was just informing Marney that there was plenty of bad things that happened in the American Revolution too, just on a smaller scale.  If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

[Guest]

Hardly news. Plenty of bad things happen during any war. It's the magnitude and the authority that makes a difference.

[Guest DrTom]

"Fine, let's both agree that within the disputed borders of Palestine, there are terrorists and there are innocent civilians.  Both represent Palestine, but neither represents it exclusively."

 

I'll agree to a point here, but I think there are more of the former than the latter.  Call it a hunch, or just call me a wicked, evil bastard, but an extended terrorist campaign cannot be sustained without the majority of the people having some level of involvement.

 

"Nowhere in this logic should every Palestinian be condemned to be removed from their home at the threat of being murdered."

 

How long has it been since "logic" has applied to this part of the world?  I stand by my idea: give them 120 days to show they're serious about peace, and if they can't do it, out they go.  Israel has been very patient with a relentless band of thugs and murderers, more patient than any nation can reasonably be expected to be.

 

"... you have to also put yourself in the eyes of an angry Palestinian, who views everything Isreal does as "terrorist."  It's all relative, Doc."

 

That's just moral relativism, Chris.  The Palestinians are angry?  Wee-wah.  Maybe if they expressed their anger thru means other than wanton murder, violent explosions, and a campaign of terror, I might be inclined to have a shred of sympathy for their plight.  But they don't, so I don't really care if they're angry.  Terrorism is *wrong*, and no amount of putting yourself in their shoes will change that.

 

"A full understanding of the human condition, which seems to be escaping you, shows us that violence is very human."

 

PUH-leeze!  YOU are the LAST person on this fucking PLANET who should be trying to explain the human condition to you.  Haven't I told you, on numerous occasions, that violence is sine qua non to humanity, while you persisted in moral relativism, what-ifs, gosh-I'm-sorrys, and trite liberal platitudes?  I bloody well know violence is intrinsic to the human condition, and the only positive thing I can take out of your attempt to turn it back around on me is that I've finally drilled it into your thick head.

 

"People backed up against a wall, or people who percieve that the are backed up against a wall, with no way out of their situation, will on instinct act in a violent manner."

 

Please explain that to Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr, and Gandhi.

 

"These suicide bombers are real tragic in the way they have let religion and politics shape the way they view the world, but underneath everything, they are human beings."

 

Awww, those poor people with explosives strapped to their chests, they're just (sniff!) victims (sniff!) of religion run amok (honk!).  They're pathetic, Chris, and so are you if you seriosuly sympathize with them.  They CHOOSE to walk into crowded areas carrying pounds of dynamite; don't make them out to be the victims in all of this.

 

"I want you to tell me exactly what you would think would happen if Israel was forced into the second pat of this plan (beacuse I'm all for the first part)."

 

I think they'd have to shoot a lot of Palestinians in the head.  Given the way things have gone the past year or so, I don't really have a problem with that.

 

"you'll see that The MikeSC also agrees that the forced removal of Palestinains is perhaps the worst possible solution to the problems in the Middle East, so how does it feel to be the extremist for once?"

 

OH NO!  I can't disagree with Mike!  What will happen to the rotation of the earth?  To the crops?  To Angelina Jolie's lips?  My god man, why didn't you warn me I was disagreeing with Mike!?!  While it's true that Mike and I are often in agreement (though he's much more of a pure conservative than I am), I have to walk a different path on this one.

 

As for how it feels to be the extremist: pretty damn good, thanks.

[Guest fatmanfoleyfan]

The only solution I can see working, as I have mentioned in previous posts, is the removal of all Palestinians from Israeli land (including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, etc). The Palestinians have shown time and again that they cannot co-exist with their Jewish neighbors. Simply put, the anti-Semitism in the region is too strong. Let the Palestinians move to Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or wherever they like. Those governments have been supportive enough of them in the past. I say the Israelis should give them two or three weeks to move, and then the rest can either be deported or shot. It sounds brutal, but I see no other solution working. One other idea that might be remotely possible is to give the Palestinians their own state after a year free of suicide bombings or other attacks, but this would never happen.

 

Palestinians stake as much a claim to the land as the Jews do. The focal point of the Zionist regime was for all Jews to return to their 'ancestral' homeland. Fact is, Jewish rule only lasted for over 400 years. Palestinians have been living in the land of Palestine (now Israel) for over 1000 years. The idea of a Jewish state being created due to a 2000 year old claim would surely result in the non-existence of many countries today.

 

Just to clarify, 'Semites' are in fact a group of peoples including both Jews and Arabs, but it's taken on a totally different context now.

 

Basically, this is just Islam Vs Christianity/Judaism.

People try to say that Islam is all about peace.

Now, I don't see Hindu's fighting holy wars, Christian's attacking mosque's, Buddhist's blowing themselves up. All the main security problems we have today are to do with Islam.

Call me racist, but there is the truth.

The Arabs have been blaying for blood for 50 years now, since their invasion of Israel was repelled.

 

The Palestinian/Israel conflict is not simply down to religion, or Islam vs. Christianity/Judaism. The Palestinian people are made up of (predominantly) Muslims and Christians. Historical Palestine was a homeland to Jews, Muslims, and Christians, whom lived peacefully. There are many Jews who opposed  Zionism, and many Jews who still do. The mis-interpretation of the Jewish race and Israel as one entity has certainly caused many problems.

 

All security problems today have to do with Islam? You're basically attributing all crime and murders to those of the Islamic faith? Thousands of crimes are commited each day by whites, blacks, Jews, Hindus. The fact of the matter is, crimes are commited by many people all of different ethnic backgrounds.

 

The Arab invasion of Israel in 1948 has been misconstrued. Firstly, Israel had yet to even be established as an independent state. Groups such as the Haganah etc, used intimidating tactics which led to Palestinians fleeing their land in fear. The events of Deir Yassin, in which 250 Palestinians were murdered are examples of these tactics. The whole notion that the Zionist 'liberation' of land was a peaceful one, which the 'evil' Palestinians and other Arab nations were against is bullshit. This so called 'liberation' was a violent, and forceful one. Lastly, the areas which were invaded in the yet to be created Israel were actually those to be partitioned off to Palestine under the UN Partition Plan (to which the Palestinians refused, I'll detail this later) but this land was being controlled. Yes, the Arab nations hated the idea of a Jewish State in Palestine, and they used violence but don't ever forget that the Israeli's did too. Most importantly, the Palestinians were rightfully pissed off at the creation of a Jewish state, as it led to the eviction of Palestinians (some areas were legally bought out by Jewish immigrants) and loss of their own land.

 

<The only solution I can see working, as I have mentioned in previous posts, is the removal of all Palestinians from Israeli land (including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, etc). The Palestinians have shown time and again that they cannot co-exist with their Jewish neighbors.>

 

Bullshit! The greatest thing about Israel is how they have been able to intergrat Christian and Muslim Arabs and give them a proper place in society (some are even MPs). That is something to admire and treasure not throw away.

 

I've already stated that the Palestinians have a rightful claim to their own state. As for the integration of Muslim and Christian Arabs into Israeli society and the government: There are over 3 million Palestinian refugees who have not only yet to be 'integrated' into Israeli society, but have been evicted from the Palestinian territories themselves. Those Palestinians who are integrated into society are also treated like 2nd class citizens, in the lack of appropriate funding for minorities etc.

 

"Why should Israel be expected to withdraw from Palestinian towns when they continually murder Israeli civilians?"

They shouldn't be, but a lot of people still expect it.  Palestinians are constantly played up as the poor, scrappy underdogs against the monolithic Israeli military machine.  In reality, the Palestinians are worthless thugs and terrorists who still exist at all because Israel has a good degree of patience.

 

What is a great cause of anger for Palestinians; the ongoing ILLEGAL military occupation which defies Palestinians control over water, security, agriculture, and much more. Imports and exports are practically non-existent making work hard, and it has left over 60% of Palestinians under the Poverty line. UN Resolutions 242 and 338, of which are linked below, state that Israel must withdraw.

(http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/un242.htm) - 242

(http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/un338.htm) - 338

 

Yes, the suicide attacks against Israeli civilians are wrong, and the loss of human life is sickening, but the Israeli occupation instigates anger and hatred.

 

I do agree with the 2nd idea, though. Don't give Palestine one inch until they can go one year without a homicide bomber.

 

Overlooking the military occupation is a cause of all the problems. The majority of Palestinians have come to terms with the fact that they must live side by side with Israel, and in peace. Palestinians, too, want peace, and they want the opportunity to live freely, with basic assets much like the citizens of Israel. The ending of the occupation, creation of an independent and viable Palestinian state will change things for the better. If suicide bombing, and attacks on Israeli were to continue, and Palestinian security officials didn't deal with the collaborators, then Israel would have a right to defend itself, and put a stop to it. But now, this crap about 'defending itself' is only fueling more retaliations on the Palestinian side, whilst killing many innocents.

 

Frankly, the killings of innocent Palestinian civilians (the majority of deaths) are at times overlooked due to these attacks being under the guise of a 'Military Defense Campaign'. What use is there in wreaking havoc in the streets of Palestinian territories, bulldozing through innocent Palestinian houses, and killing many all in the name of 'defending' itself? All this does is further the hatred of Israel.

 

It's not Israel's fault that a) the Palestinian homicide bombers aren't the most competent people out there and b) the terrorists hide amongst the people.

EVERY death in this altercation is the fault of the Palestinian terrorists. Every single one.

 

So I suppose, that the start of this recent Intifada, in which Palestinians were shot dead is to be blamed upon the suicide bombers? Ariel Sharon's visit to 'Temple Mount' on a Friday (Muslim day of prayer), in which the building was surrounded by armed Israeli forces denying the right to pray, sparked this. From there, it just escalated.

 

The difference is the Isrealis have been going after the military targets (if you can call terrorists military) and the Palestinians have been going after whoever they damn well please. If you want to look at this from a historical perspective, ask yourself, who was there first? The Jews? Well, they were given their ancestral homeland, which they had basicly been expelled from many times throughout history, after Hitler tried to wipe them out. The Palestinians? They were always there, but, weren't they also Jews before the advent of Islam? So let's take religion as the base of the conflict, which it really is. A lot of the Islamic fundamentalists love to point to history and say "Look at what the west has done to us. They had the Crusades, they forced their culture on us, etc." OK, but weren't the Crusades an attempt to reclaim the birthplace of Christianity? Where do the Jews fit into that? Didn't the Muslims conquer all of Northern Africa and most of Spain, as well as the majority of the islands in the Med? Yes they did. So using history as a reason for their actions does not help the muslim cause. So back to Isreal vs. the Palestinians, when Isreal was formed by the UN, what was called Palestine was essentially a region, not a country. There was no true government to speak of. The Palestinians were the political equivalent of squatters. Squatters who had been there forever, but squatters nonetheless. If there was a real government in place in the region at the time, I doubt the Isreali state would have been formed as it is. So once again, I ask you, who should be there? The answer, the Isrealis. IMO, the Isrealis should be allowed to beat the terrorists down. They have to live there, it's their fight. Not ours.

 

In the words of Steve Austin, WHAT?

The idea that the Israeli military has been going after military targets is bullshit. We all know full well, that over 1500 Palestinians have been killed in this recent intifada. Are you saying that they were all 'terrorists'? Or were they simply killed due to 'Colateral Damage'? Ariel Sharon, a man who should be in a war crimes court is guilty of killing over 2000 Palestinians (not including the 1500 I spoke of before). Case in point: Sabra & Shatilla - In the 80s, Sharon (Defence Minister) ordered the militant 'Phalange', a Lebanese Christian racist group whom had a deep hatred of Palestinians for supposedly invoking a Civil War, to enter a refugee camp. The Israeli Army surrounded the camp, whilst the Phalange massacred over 2000 Palestinians and Lebanese innocents. There is evidence of rape, mutilations, and many more horrific acts of brutality. Ariel Sharon will never change his views on the Palestinians, he's just a war criminal who can do nothing, and one who likes to incite violence.

 

As for the historical context, I've documented it ever so slightly above. Palestinians were not squatters. The fact that Palestine and its people have been recognised and were for a thousand years shows that they weren't just squatters. They were under the rule of the Ottoman Empire most recently, who were defeated. This lead to the British mandate over Palestine, and the whole creation of Israel. It's not a matter of whether Palestine was a nation, it's the fact that the land belonged to Palestinian people who were evicted. That is wrong. Palestinians are persecuted. Zionism was born to find a Jewish state due to the persecution of the Jews, but they are just as guilty of what was being done to them; persecution.

 

This all could of been avoided if the Palestinian would of accepted the same deal the Isreali's took in 1948. There own country, and having NATO run Jerusalem.

 

The UN Partition Plan you speak of, was understandbly refused by the Palestinian people. At that time, Jews owned about 1.5 (about 7%) square km, whilst Palestinians owned the rest of it (around 25,000 squared km). The Partition plan agreed to give Jews 55% under the assumption that many would immigrate there. Palestinians would get 45%.

 

"People backed up against a wall, or people who percieve that the are backed up against a wall, with no way out of their situation, will on instinct act in a violent manner."

Please explain that to Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr, and Gandhi.

 

"Gandhi on the Palestine conflict – 1938

 

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs…As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds."

 

Mahatma Gandhi quoted in

"A Land of Two Peoples"ed. Mendes-Flohr"