Angel

[Guest Ripper]

Bottom line, I don't like the character of Angel.  I basically have a problem with alot of nice guy characters on television.  Thats why I have been enjoying Season 3 of Angel so much this year.  Angel has been getting that edge back.

 

Last night show, I got to see some Angelus shining through which will no doubt keep me locked to the screen.  I like the the people At Joss Whedons company have no fear letting thier characters change, unlike most television which is my main problem with other shows.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

I think the reason most shows have to keep their characters the same is because they have a set audience who expects the characters to be a certain way, and if the characters stray from that way, they cease to like them.

 

The reason that Angel is able to change his character is because he already changed on Buffy, from "monster" villain vampre character to lover and ally.  If they had never done that, he never would've had a strong enough character to get his own show in the first place.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Last nights episode rocked, and totally tied together any loose ends, but I can't see what is going to become of it.

 

Angel doing a turn was SWEEEEET and I never saw it coming until he said 'I am not angelis' to which I said 'BYTCH! Yes you are!'.

[Guest Ripper]

I saw it as soon as he closed the door to the room and checked to make sure Gunn and Fred weren't looking.  I knew then "He's gonna kill him."

 

I enjoyed just as much him gettin utensils to torture that guy.  Oh, its Angleus alright.  You don't have to be souless to be EEEEEVILLLL and Angel is getting there.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Its sort of weird how they had this storyline go, you would think they would give that 'dude' (time traveller) more of a suitable death, but he was just like poof... Gone. The guy was not really a major player, just a catalyst.  IMO they are doing TOO many set ups, they have to give us a suitable pay-off once in a while.  I am not complaining, cause I really dug the last show (and the whole season...best show to watch on tv IMO) and there are a lot of questions to be asked (which is good for a show that ‘to be continue’'s all the time), but it just seems like masturbatory plot twists...There for the sake of being there.

 

So right now we have holtz and connor in another realm (or are they dead?).  Obviously we are going to see Angels son as a vampire/demon hunter, no?

 

Angel is pissed off at Wesley (I don‘t think he is Angelis... Cause Angelis was a sadistic fuck, while this was only Pissed Off to high hell Angel...).

 

W&H want Angel dead.

 

W&H have a 10 year old girl as the ‘know all’.

 

Which leads me to say this... Does anyone else find the humour in Angel (and furthermore Buffy) to be some of the funniest shit on television?  Its easily recognizable but I can’t really describe it... Its sort of dry...

[Guest]

Angel was great because he didn't let bygones be bygones. If My son was taken into a hell dimension because someone like wesley took him, i wouldn't care about "his reasons", i'd be pissed to all hell.

 

And am I the only one thinking that Connor, in the future comes back, all grown, to kill Angel? Maybe next year, they can be like "time is faster in the hell place". That would so kick ass IMO.

[Guest Ripper]

The timetraveler guy said that the original prohecy said that Conner was going to kill him...And as we all know, you can't change to prophocey.  So I am guessing that the timetraveler dude will get out of the bottle soon and Conner will be making a comeback, all grown up and stuff and eventually kill him.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Yeah, I can definately see a grown up Connor kicking some ass.  But then we won't see a Angel/Connor bond form, which would be a jip to Angel.  Maybe like a 15 year old Connor or something would be better than a fully matured one.  Thoughts?

 

The time travel dude was definately a strong bitch, so I wouldnt mind seeing him as the main bad guy in the future.

[Guest]

Thats the best thing about this season, tyheyve made almost ever little thing matter.

 

If they really did have some balls, they'd have Wesley and Angel fight. Wesley would whomp Angel's ass.

[Guest Vyce]

Last week's episode is proof of why I felt that Angel is TONS better this season than Buffy.  Buffy just seems sort of there this year....but Angel?  As Tony said, they've made everything matter.  There's great writing this season, and the entire theme of the show is finally living up to its intentions - very dark and grim.  I love everything about the program.  The writing, the characters, the performances, it all works.

 

I'm not sure how many episodes are left this season, but I see one of two things happening - Holtz & Connor return (most likely with Connor radically different), or Angel travels to the hell dimension.  Either way, it should be interesting.

 

I liked the ending of the last episode; while I don't think it's the return of Angelus, it does seem as if Angel will have a definite darker edge to him, which I can't complain about.

 

I was a bit upset to see Sahjan defeated so easily too, because he is a rather interesting villain

[Guest]

Im thinking Connor and Holz will come back in the last episode, at the very end. I see something like a growned up Connor, standing over Angel with a sword, with Holtz in the abckground saying something like "Like father, like son"

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Sahjan is definately coming back.  I think they just gave us a TASTE of what he can do, since he whooped angels ass the first time they met, and his current circumstances can easily be solved.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

Last week's episode is proof of why I felt that Angel is TONS better this season than Buffy.  Buffy just seems sort of there this year....but Angel?  As Tony said, they've made everything matter.  There's great writing this season, and the entire theme of the show is finally living up to its intentions - very dark and grim.  I love everything about the program.  The writing, the characters, the performances, it all works.

"Angel" was always much better than "Buffy".  Much as they try to make "Buffy" a serious, or semi-serious series, the seemingly endless analogies of Buffy and her friends to "the Scooby gang" are not unfounded.  With the exception of the death of her mother, everything is ALWAYS right in the end for Buffy and her friends, similar to how it was ALWAYS right in the end with some regular criminal underneath the mask for the Scooby Doo crew.  When "Buffy" does take risks, it's solely for a gimmick, such as the musical episode and the silent episode, that works well for the time but does nothing overall to enhance the series.  This is not to say that "Buffy" can't be an enjoyable series, because it sometimes is, but the majority of the time it's too by-the-numbers to be of any interest.  "Angel" has a much darker setting, more realistic characters, and takes risks that "Buffy" never would, such as this whole Connor/Wesley/Angel storyline.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Buffy in the faith saga was REALLY good, and the first 2 seasons were quality television.

 

However, I agree, This season (and last seasons) Angel dwarfs it, just in-terms of storyline.

[Guest Ripper]

I don't know, about that.  The first 3 seasons of Buffy are/were miles ahead of the first 3 seasons of Angel in my opinon. Lets remember that Buffy has been on for 6 years now, it is a lot harder to keep it fresh than it is to keep a 3 year old series fresh.  

 

I think the fact that the first season of Angel coincieded with Season 4 of Buffy(the worst of the bunch) people always compare them there.  I personally perfered Season 5 Buffy over season 2 Angel.  I don't know, the first couple seasons of Angel was basically Angel brooding around alot and I just didn't like his character.  The show vastly improved when they started giving the characters dept.  And there is also the fact that I hate Gunns character and wanted to throw something at the screen when ever he was on there that might have hurt my Angel acceptance.  

 

I also still think that this season of Buffy is really getting a bad rap.  I didn't get to see the season over weeks like others, I started late and borrowed the season up to now and saw them all over a week or so. The show has been INCREDIBLY written, it is just a little hard to notice.  I think that when people are able to look back on the season, they will like it alot more.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

This season of Buffy is purely a set up season for next year like last seasons Angel was to this years.... If that makes sense.

 

But the layers, the way they set everything up, the intricases of this and last season of angel, the way NOTHING was wasted and everything meant something is just not seen nowadays on television.

[Guest Risk]

IMO, "Buffy" seasons one through three were GREAT.  But...then season four came.  Willow suddenly becomes a lesbian despite being torn AND attracted to two boys, we have a lame villian in Adam, Spike becomes a "good guy" despite having no soul, ect al.  Then in the first episode of season five of "Buffy"...she fights Dracula.

 

WTF?  Then she gets a sister to bring in the young "pop-teen" demographic, the writers seem determined to not let Buffy grow up.  Buffy sacrifices herself, which was good...then she comes back in season six...WTF?

 

By the way, if Willow can raise Buffy, why not her mom?  PLOTHOLE!  Then we have Willow addicted to magic for some crappy drug overtoned fun!  Buffy goes on another angst trip and everyone moans.

 

I really wish they would have stopped after season three.

[Guest Ripper]

"Willow suddenly becomes a lesbian despite being torn AND attracted to two boys, we have a lame villian in Adam, Spike becomes a "good guy" despite having no soul, ect al.  Then in the first episode of season five of "Buffy"...she fights Dracula.

 

WTF?  Then she gets a sister to bring in the young "pop-teen" demographic, the writers seem determined to not let Buffy grow up.  Buffy sacrifices herself, which was good...then she comes back in season six...WTF?

 

By the way, if Willow can raise Buffy, why not her mom?  PLOTHOLE!  Then we have Willow addicted to magic for some crappy drug overtoned fun!  Buffy goes on another angst trip and everyone moans."

 

But see, this stuff is some of the best things on TV.  Willow being lesbian, when I saw Dopplegangland in season 3 (the show with the 2 Willows) and one of them was obviously gay (even Willow said "And I think I'm kinda gay") I was like, but if she ends up gay if Buffy hadn't shown up to sunnydale, she should be gay now.  Then one season later, they came through on it.  Ok, ok, Adam was lame, but the characer development in season 4 was amazing.  Xander grew up, Giles got a life, Willow well, had a life style change and Buffy got over Angel.  And all through season 4 and at the end of Season 3 we got the "Little Miss Muffett" and "Have to get ready for little sis" from Faith, all leading up to Dawn being there.  While alot of people didn't like her, The Glory thing was the 3rd best storyline the show had(oh yeah, I put it above the Mayor).  

 

Willow could bring back buffy because she died of supernatural causes and Joyce died of natural causes.  Buffy and Angel are two shows that are very good at not leaving plot holes(except of course the whole Angel"I (vampires) have no breath" line and Spike smoking all the time.) they leave everything pretty covered and you get fair warning about everything that happens.

[Guest Risk]

Willow could bring back buffy because she died of supernatural causes and Joyce died of natural causes.  Buffy and Angel are two shows that are very good at not leaving plot holes(except of course the whole Angel"I (vampires) have no breath" line and Spike smoking all the time.) they leave everything pretty covered and you get fair warning about everything that happens.

 

Actually, Whedon explained this.  Vampires can simulate breathing in order to smoke.  He said this in the Buffy monster guide.

[Guest Risk]

BTW, Tara and Willow are NOWHERE as good as Oz and Willow.  I stand by my belief that seasons four(Adam), five(Glory), and six(crap) sucked.

[Guest Ripper]

Yeah, Willow/Oz was THE couple, but Seth wanted to leave the show so what could they do??  I'm liking the Tara/Willow relationship this year, but I have a sicking feeling where its heading.  

 

I still have to disagree, Glory kicked all kinds of ass.  I didn't like the guy that played Ben, but Glory ruled.  And although these seasons aren't great by Buffy/Angel standards, its still better than 90% of the stuff on TV.

[Guest Risk]

I'm liking the Tara/Willow relationship this year, but I have a sicking feeling where its heading.  

Where do you think it's heading?

[Guest Ripper]

It all works in the Joss equation..

 

Happiness + Characters Joy=Death.  

 

Joyce gets rid of the tumor with no problem + Every rejoices= Buffy finding her dead on the couch.

 

Xander and Anya in love + Wedding= Xander leaving Anya at the alter and Anya being vengence demon again.

 

Angel Loves Buffy + they have sex= Him turning into a psycho and her having to kill him.

 

Willow loves Oz + Cordy loves Xander= Oz and Cordy catching them making out and Cordy gets impaled.

 

Jenny and Giles make up + Plan to consimate their relationship later on= Angelus breaking her neck and placing her in the bed to break Gile's heart even more.  

 

And you can go on forever.  Doyle, Darla, Riley, just anyone in the Mutant Enemy universe.  If they get happy, some unbearable pain is coming.  Using this equation:

 

Willow is Magic free, Tara likes it + they will eventually get back together= Tara will die a ugly one.  

 

I know alot of people don't care for Taras character, but I really like her. So unless there is about to be a streak of bad luck ending here, I think Tara will be done for.

[Guest Risk]

Maybe we will see the return of Oz if Greg the Bunny bombs.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Man, that was a funny show...

 

A 3?

 

I like the fact that when most shows add a baby it means that they are out of ideas and just do the run-of-the-mill baby storylines, but Angel has been able to really make it work.  The same thing goes for the 'new character' gimmick.  Both Buffy and Angel have improved with new characters (well, thats debatable, but they still 'work' with new characters)

[Guest]

I stopped watching Buffy after the wedding epsidoes. They pissed me off too much. Xander was THE most defined and likeable charatcer. Then they made him a damn pussy. And there was no build up. All the other eps. he was like "i love you" but now he gets scared of marriage? GRRRR!

[Guest Ripper]

"I stopped watching Buffy after the wedding epsidoes. They pissed me off too much. Xander was THE most defined and likeable charatcer. Then they made him a damn pussy. And there was no build up. All the other eps. he was like "i love you" but now he gets scared of marriage? GRRRR!"

 

Thats too bad, because the one the week after was one of the best shows ever, IMO.  

 

And even though there was no build up, he had good reason.  He saw all that stuff that the demon made up, and that coupled with the amazing asshole which was his father, really put fears in him about himself. He saw it as a believeable out come seeing his dysfunctional family life and wouldn't want to hurt Anya that bad.  Its a dumb decision on the outside, but understandible if you really look at it from his angle.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

This weeks Angel eps. was not to bad, but I think that the Connor thing was 3 shows too early.

 

They could have/should have milked it till the season finale.  And they could have/should have milked the new evil (that guy that came down whom Connor killed immediately) a lot more.  Cause it would have made it's death/Connors arrival all that more badass.

 

Other than that it est. a good amount of things.  Tension in Cord/Gru relationship, Gunn/Angel understanding about 'doin what you gatta do', Gunn/Wes meeting again, Wes saying that the only thing that kept him alive was the day he could explain to his friends why he did what he did, Wolfram and Hart tension, Angel's guilt, the furtherment of Angel into darkness...

[Guest Ripper]

My question is this...did Conner kill the death thing when he came out the portal that easily...or maybe were they talking about Conner the whole time?  And I once again must profess my hate for Gruu and hope he dies quickly.

[Guest Ripper]

And another thing, am I the only one waiting for Angel to slap the shiot out of Gunn.  I mean, he is always jumping up in his face like he could beat the crap out of Angel when we all know that he could just do one Angelus Neck-snap and it would be done.  

 

And dear god if that Fred girl was any skinner...I knew she was small but you could really see she was just a skeleton this week.