Is the rock

[Guest mastermind]

Oh, boy. I thought people here hated Rock? The "people" are coing out the woodwork. I was BACKING Rock that he deserved the spotlight with Hogan and people were saying Austin should have headlined because he carried the wwf. I like the Rock, but I see the writing on the wall. I remember back in 1990 and 1991 I was saying the same damn thing about Hogan and how he and Vince were protraying wrestling in the media at the time. Hogan left and wrestling took a nosedive years later. The skydome jinx *lol*.

 

All I'm saying is watch all this stuff the wwf is doing will hurt them in 1-2 years when Rock's fans leave if he is gone. When Austin retires within the next few years. When Hogan is gone. We'll be with Triple H and his soap opera writing girlfriend running things more into the ground. I think the wwf is already getting backlash with their fanbase since 1999 (watch how the ratings have dropped) and all of Vince's "vision" of action adventure. I will always watch wrestling *seen all the crap* and so will most here, but I know damn well most fans won't. The wwf used Russo to create crash tv. Vince may go into creative nonsense again. All we need to see is the crap over the last year.

 

I know the responses will be that something big and new will come up as in the past. Well, Vince has a monopoly and the wwf creative has just about done everything possible to try to make wrestling revolutionary by even breaking kayfabe. The wwf and wrestling stumbled upon their re-boom in the 90's through wcw/nwo/ecw because of the wwf's lack of knowing their audience and their damage of the 80's. I think some are thinking that I feel Rock is a prick and so on. I don't. I just don't agree with some things he says that's all really for reasons as a WRESTLING fan. Hogan and Rock are poster boys for sports entertainment and I'm a mark for both. I'm just stating I'm a bigger WRESTLING fan though. As some have said Trips and others do the same thing looking out for themselves. I'm just looking at this like a fan. Where are people like Ultimate Warrior and Goldberg now? They left and made their millions, but I'm still here as a fan of the business. I'm looking at this from MY perspective as a fan of the product.

[Guest notJames]

So, are you worried that the WWF will go out of business due to the casual fans leaving?

 

Like you said, the wrestling business is a cycle. The casual fans have left before, leaving the hardcore fans to fill the seats, buy the PPVs, etc. And the WWF has survived. Sure we may never get the wrestling boom we once did, but I think Vince et al is smart enough to keep his company going, even if Raw never goes past the 5.0 rating mark again.

 

If you're worried about the content suffering, that's a possibility. Loss of starpower may force Vince to come up with more crazy stuff ala the Russo era in order to either keep fans or reel in new ones. But I think wrestling as a whole has enough of a niche market that it could withstand the cartoonier aspects or over-the-top antics the McMahons could come up with.

[Guest HartFan86]

"Maybe "BretHart4ever" would like him better if he took a bigger contract to leave the wwf  and held the world title hostage by refusing to do the "time honered tradition" like Hart did."

 

I think I would like him better if he just...left. I love the fact how  you say that, cause quite frankly...he IS taking a bigger contract to leave the WWF. I don't understand why you say he held the belt hostage. HBK did the same thing in early 97, but I don't see you mentioning him. At least Bret was willing to drop the belt to someone OTHER than Shawn Michaels...which you people seem to forget.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Rocky, if you leave the WWF and expose the business, fuck you and die. >>>

 

 

What's left to expose? Is there a SOUL on Earth who doesn't know it's pre-determined?

                     -=Mike

[Guest mastermind]

I think that's what I'm really worried about the most. The content because of the ideaology of Dwyane Johnson and Vince. I mean Rock IS hands down the top three most impactful wrestlers in history alongside Austin and Hogan. If only Austin who some here backed with his walking out thinks like how I'm thinking then wrestling is going to continue to suck. Maybe I might have to go back on my stance that Austin was wrong not to job at Mania and walk out. Maybe he sees the wwf going in the direction of guys who can't really cut it at top getting the rub and push because Vince has taken a new philosophy.

 

If Vince just sees this as a work(I know he does, but you know what I mean) then guys like Nash will be pushed and people like Angle will be kept in the midcard. If Trips and others "con"-Vince into this thinking then we are in trouble. I agreed with Vince's idealogy in late 1997, but not now with how him(I saw him on the BET special about Scorpion King) and Rock are stating things in the media. Obviously guys like Rock( I agree he works his ass off and hustles most times) and the nWo who are less talented ring wise can get the public to think this way people like an Austin or even Ric Flair in his prime will get pushed aside. I mean how do you explain Luger getting all those damn pushes? What Vince and Hogan were portraying and presenting in the 80's. When that wore thin Luger got the monster push and flopped. The steroids thing almost became the wwf and wrestling's undoing. It was a reason we got big men like Diesel boring the masses and me to tears in 1995. The ideaology!

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Quote (notJames @ April 18 2002,09:11)

Rock's just about done with wrestling.

 

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not even going to go into any more detail. Just watch how things fall into places. You guys will soon see what I'm talking about. I don't blame Rock one bit for going to the movies, but just as the "original generation" did he is leaving most likely without putting back. Just watch. Hogan left the same way and you saw the big void that was left until 1996. >>>

 

 

What void has Rock left? I've never seen a main eventer as willing to job to people as Rock has been in his career.

 

 

<<<Apart of the reason people here and others BOOED Hogan so much was how he raped the business and left a big void where guys like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels were doomed before they started. Hogan was a muscle man and monster where it let the up and comers smaller than him have no chance because how the wwf talked about wrestling in family entertainment terms and whatnot.>>>

 

 

Fans grew to hate Hogan because his matches were the exact same night after night. If the WWF had Hogan on TV all of the time in 1984, he'd have never taken off as a star.

 

 

<<<The "cartoon" era. It was at those times the wwf should have promoted the other aspects of wrestling. The smaller fan base grew who were wrestling oriented and they started to boo Hogan because they were "expsoed" to Hogan's cliches.

 

Rock imo should also give back if he is considering going part time. By stating the winning and losing stuff he bascially can't put anyone over as a passing of the torch. Just like Hogan.>>>

 

 

I'd rather have a main-eventer saying winning and losing doesn't matter than have a main eventer refuse to job to anybody.

 

 

<<<I'm not saying Rock IS a sell-out. Just stating that there is a big possibility there. Anyways, let's watch the next 2 years and see how it effects the wwf when guys like Jericho and Angle go through what Bret and Shawn had to.>>>

 

 

But how would it be Rock's fault? Rock has put over both guys. Rock jobs when asked and doesn't gripe about it. He never treats wrestling as a joke. He is one of the best spokesmen the business has had.

                    -=Mike

[Guest Ripper]

The reason the WWF floundered after Hogan left and towards the end of his run had nothing to do with interviews given outside the ring.  It was the fact that for about 10 years, A big heel would be built up...they would fight Hogan...Hogan would win...they would go to jobber status and the cycle would repeat.  Hogan didn't put anyone over, and THAT'S why the business suffered.  New stars weren't put on display.  It was the old guard for years, and eventually people grew tired of it.  

Rock on the other hand has put over some of the younger guys.  It can be said that they hold a victory over the Rock.  Ultimate Warrior and Yoko could say that about Hogan.  What Rock does in the ring does bulid more towards the future than what Stonecold has/is doing.  He only fueds with the old and established stars.  If he does wreslte a non ME, it is basically a squash. And while I do(well did a couple of months ago) enjoy Austins work, he isn't really doing anything to keep the business moving.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Maybe "BretHart4ever" would like him better if he took a bigger contract to leave the wwf  and held the world title hostage by refusing to do the "time honered tradition" like Hart did."

 

I think I would like him better if he just...left. I love the fact how  you say that, cause quite frankly...he IS taking a bigger contract to leave the WWF.>>>

 

 

And he's done enough jobs to avoid complaints.

 

 

<<<I don't understand why you say he held the belt hostage. HBK did the same thing in early 97, but I don't see you mentioning him.>>>

 

 

Defending Hart by mentioning another jerk backstage is a poor defense.

 

 

<<<At least Bret was willing to drop the belt to someone OTHER than Shawn Michaels...which you people seem to forget. >>>

 

 

It wasn't Bret's call to make.

 

You seem to forget that.

                -=Mike

[Guest caboose]

I've never been a Rocky mark, but then again I never hated the guy like some on this board.

The truth is if Duane Johnson sells out to Hollywood, good for him.

It is true he was booed at two straight Wrestlemania's but then did you expect anything else in Texas?

And Toronto wasn't really that surprising if you think about it. Hogan was going to get cheered no matter what, and Canada never really liked Rocky apart from when he got cheered back in 1998 at Breakdown.

And as for Duane Johnson turning on the fans, we turned on him, long before he ever turned on us.

Do you think Duane Johnson has forgotten about 1997 and Rocky Maivia? It still must have hurt the guy when he was so young to be treated like that by the same fans he was trying to entertain.

If Duane Johnson feels that the wrestling world no longer wants him or needs him, then he'll chase that Hollywood Money.

And we have no reason to complain.

[Guest mastermind]

Woah! I'm not saying simple interviews are what led to the wwf becoming the land of the bore when Hogan left. I stated the mindset of Vince and Hogan through their interviews. Don't kid yourselves Vince and the wwf groom these guys on what to say in the media. Ripper I agree COMPLETELY with you on why the wwf suffered when Hogan left. I just think little things like this also helped contribute. I disagree with you about people can say they have a win over the Rock.

 

I have stated many times that I think Rock jobs TOO MUCH. However, I think the only TRULY high profile jobs Rock has done which might give a rub to the other person in the masses eyes is Austin and Triple H. Now tell me if those two aren't seen as big dogs without a win over Rock? I also agree about Austin as well as most should know since I have stated he has been half assing it since Hogan and company came in.  

I also agree he only jobs to established guys.

 

I think the Jericho thing has the verdict that his wins over Rock and Austin just wasn't impressive to the masses. Once he beat Rock(which Rock always loses meaning beating him doesn't really mean nothing in storyline terms) and then beats Austin by screwjob big deal. Jobbing sometimes as I stated doesn't mean you put the guy over. It only made Rock and Austin look like they got screwed because they were suppose to win.

 

Hogan losing to Warrior or Goldberg is putting someone over. Hogan didn't put over Rock imo at Mania. Hogan came out a better roses from the match than how he entered. Foley putting over Triple H before leaving is putting someone over. I actually think Foley presented wrestling better in the media than Rock has. He is the perfect example. Just like Rock and Austin with their matches with Jericho they came out better roses, while Jericho just seemed like a transition champion. Jericho couldn't even beat Rock properly at the Rumble. Jericho gets help from the nWo against Austin in February. It made Austin and Rock come out a better roses as they were suppose to win, but were robbed. That's not putting someone over. I also will say though that fans just don't buy Jericho beating Rock or Austin since he was job boy for months prior.

 

Johsnon going for the hollywood money is no problem with me. I mean I would be a damn hypocrite to tell the man to stay in wrestling and turn down those movie offers. I sure as hell wouldn't. What I'm saying is how he is saying things though.  I just want my wrestling entertainment not to suffer when Vince gets crazy when Hulkamania dies off in a few months and Austin bitches again about something, while Triple H does more pillow talk to maintain his boring face run. Vince will tend to think since the wwf broke out of the ratings doldrum against wcw because of him(which factually is correct as that segment of Vince/Austin match was the first segment the wwf beat a wcw nitro segment with the exception of the night when the nWo tried to tear down wcw and make it their own show) he will start to go action adventure again.

 

 

"I'd rather have a main-eventer saying winning and losing doesn't matter than have a main eventer refuse to job to anybody".

 

Well I agree with this completely. I wonder if you backed Austin for not getting a DQ or screwjob loss to Hall at Mania.

[Guest HartFan86]

<<<I don't understand why you say he held the belt hostage. HBK did the same thing in early 97, but I don't see you mentioning him.>>>

 

 

Defending Hart by mentioning another jerk backstage is a poor defense.

 

 

<<<At least Bret was willing to drop the belt to someone OTHER than Shawn Michaels...which you people seem to forget. >>>

 

 

It wasn't Bret's call to make.

 

You seem to forget that.

                -=Mike

I mentioned Hart in relation to HBK because people NEVER bring up HBK about not wanting to lose the title, it's always Bret and that pisses me off. If you want to bash on Bret, people should bash HBK just as much.

 

So Bret's creative control clause meant nothing? If that was the case, then why could Hogan do what he wanted with that clause in both WCW and the WWF?

 

Actually, it could have been Bret's call to make. He could of no-showed Survivor Series and took the belt with him to WCW or had WCW call him "Current WWF Champion" on TV. I'm not saying that was the right thing to do if it had happened, but to say it wasn't Bret's decision is not a true statement...cause Bret could have done a lot of things that would have been the way things went.

 

And I'm also sure it wasn't Shawn Michaels' call back in 95 when he forefited the IC title. I'm sure it wasn't his call in 97 when he forefited the title. Oddly, BOTH those things happened that were Shawn Michaels' ideas.

 

I really don't want to get in an arguement about that, cause it's not relating to the topic. The guy who compared The Rock to the whole Bret Hart deal was pretty stupid and like I said, this really has nothing to do with the topic...so I'm just gunna drop it.

[Guest HartFan86]

And as for Duane Johnson turning on the fans, we turned on him, long before he ever turned on us.

Do you think Duane Johnson has forgotten about 1997 and Rocky Maivia? It still must have hurt the guy when he was so young to be treated like that by the same fans he was trying to entertain.

That's not true. We turned on Rocky Maivia, not Duane Johnson. It was a bad gimmick, the man needed better wrestling skills, and a new look. He got those all.

 

People weren't chanting "DUANE MUST DIE" and "DUANE SUCKS"...they were chanting "ROCKY SUCKS" and "ROCKY MUST DIE."

 

And honestly, if it wasn't for the fans doing that, he wouldn't be "The Rock." That's just the truth. I'm not Mr. Johnson, but if I was him, I would look back and be thankful I got that response from the fans because that is what made me what I am today. That's just a proven fact, he wouldn't be The Rock if he hadn't been booed out of buildings in early 97.

[Guest Mole]

"I don't really understand what you are so upset about. On one hand, you complain because Rock is talking openly about storylines, characters and wrestling matches being pre-determined. But then you also complain when Rock says his match with Hogan is the greatest of all time, which is something the WWF tried to promote it as."

 

That exactly what I was going to say.

 

Even though some people say that Rock is putting down wrestling, at the same time he isn't.

 

For example, a boy named John, who never watches wrestling, see's a preview for the Scorpion King. He likes the trailer, and decides to see the movie.

 

John sees Scorpion King, and think the Rock is the man. He knows that the Rock is a wrestler, so he decides to watch wrestling one night.

 

The next thing you know, John likes more then just the Rock. Whenever he see's Angle, he cracks his ass off because he is funny. He sees Kidman/Rey Jr. match and is amazed at what these two men can do.

 

The Rock being in Scorpion King will do good business for the WWF, for it might bring in more viewers, just like the example above.

[Guest]

Where did Rock say that he wanted Hogan to come in? I don't remember reading that anywhere. The story I remember is that after Kevin Nash found out no one but Triple H and Stephanie wanted him in the company, he demanded that Hogan and Hall be brought in as well so he would not be sabotaged.

I think the WWF wanted to bring in both Hogan and Nash but Nash convinced Vince Hall should come in too.

 

Again, I KNOW Hogan knew he had to job coming in. I KNEW that even before it was on the damn internet as I heard it on the LAW sports radio. What I don't like is how they handle the damn storyline because it's just a work.

They revealed who was going to win the match on the LAW? When?

 

Who else can you say that about.  Flair? nope..Austin...nope..Bret? nope. Shawn?..hell naw...Hogan..HAHAHAHA...HHH?..teehee NO

Who did FAlir. And there has been evidence against HHH but I dont think any stories have come out that hes refused to work with or job. HGH: smooth like that

 

It's not a coincidence that the two guys who talk about their characters, Angle and Rock have the national media interested in them for reasons other than wrestling.

ANGLE!? I dont see him many places asides from where they get him because hes a wrestler.

 

Apart of the reason people here and others BOOED Hogan so much was how he raped the business and left a big void where guys like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels were doomed before they started.

They werent doomed. If they were doomed they wouldnt have become WWf legends.

 

I don't blame Rock one bit for going to the movies, but just as the "original generation" did he is leaving most likely without putting back. Just watch. Hogan left the same way and you saw the big void that was left until 1996.

The original generation? What? And if Rock leaves a void it is not his fault.

[Guest nl5xsk1]

I think too many people are putting the cart before the horse when they talk about Rock leaving for the greener pastures of Hollywood ... let's wait until his movie is a success, and the follow-up offers to come in before we all assume he's a sellout.  He's a flavor of the month in Hollywood, in my opinion, closer to a Stephen Segal or Jean Claude Van Dam (or Bosworth or Dolph Lundgren) than to Arnold or Stallone.

 

I hope he finds some level of success in movies, because I think he sucks as a wrestler and am bored of him as a sports entertainer.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<I think too many people are putting the cart before the horse when they talk about Rock leaving for the greener pastures of Hollywood ... let's wait until his movie is a success, and the follow-up offers to come in before we all assume he's a sellout.  He's a flavor of the month in Hollywood, in my opinion, closer to a Stephen Segal or Jean Claude Van Dam (or Bosworth or Dolph Lundgren) than to Arnold or Stallone.>>>

 

 

WAY off-topic here, but considering that Stallone is as proficient at churning out non-profitable crap as anybody, should anybody hold him up as a star anymore?

 

 

<<<I hope he finds some level of success in movies, because I think he sucks as a wrestler and am bored of him as a sports entertainer. >>>

 

 

That's a shame. Rock is one of the few guys who, while as over as humanly possible, STILL tried to improve his ringwork. Rock rarely works crap matches (heck, his matches are usually quite good) but his popularity, shockingly, will never afford him respect.

               -=Mike

[Guest bcu1979]

Again, I KNOW Hogan knew he had to job coming in. I KNEW that even before it was on the damn internet as I heard it on the LAW sports radio. What I don't like is how they handle the damn storyline because it's just a work. Rock gets injured by a dam semi and returns two weeks later. He has one piece of bandage under his rib cage. I mean come on now. THAT'S not insulting your audience? I guess that contradicts what Rock does in his interviews which try not to "insult" the viewers. It's their flippant attitude of how they want to present wrestling as action adventure. It's all a work, so I guess no one should complain that X-Pac is in main events then. If Hogan wins on sunday I guess there are some who shouldn't complain since kayfabe has been eroded over the years and the wwf is a work. I know for sure there will be a thread against Hogan being a 50 year old champion and why he is putting other down and so on and so on.

 

It's all a work, so if the past won does it really matter? Yes it does and that's my point. Those videos are suppose to make you THINK it's out of kayfabe. It's still flippant in how they want to take the wrestling out of the wwf. I just think this sports entertainment crap is slowly thrown around because Vince kind of hates "pro wrestling". I could be wrong, but as posts here have for weeks shown that I'm basically not off the mark too much.

How is it Rock's fault that the storyline made no sense? Yes, it insultes the viewers intelligence that Rock came back from his collision in the ambulance without a scratch. Just like it insulted the viewer's intelligence when Triple H got dropped 30 feet in the air from a car and came back a week later without a scratch just to make sure he didn't lose his spot in the Armageddon main event. Blame Vince, Stephanie and the rest of the inept writing team for those blunders.

 

Those are events that kill the believability of the characters and the storylines. I agree with you on that point.

 

But Rock or Angle or Jericho saying in a mainstream interview that WWF matches are pre-determined is not killing any storylines or characters.

 

How is wrestling any different from any other television show? When I watch The West Wing, I "believe" that Martin Sheen is the President. I find the show entertaining and compelling and I get caught up in the stories and characters.But when I see him on television doing an interview as Martin Sheen, it doesn't ruin The West Wing for me. It doesn't confuse me when Bush starts holding a press confernece in the White House.

 

The same goes for RAW and Smackdown. When I am watching the show, I become engrossed in the characters and storylines. But when the show goess off it just becomes a television show again.

 

Rock saying he doesn't care who wins or loses in a mainstream interview as long as the fans are entertained does not kill the intensity for his matches. It's doesn't take away from Jericho or Angle or anyone else who has beaten the Rock. Next time Rock wrestles Austin or Jericho, I am going to be caught up in the excitement of the match. I won't be thinking about how these guys are good friends and how they really don't hate each other.

 

Maybe I am missing your point again and I apologize if that's the case. When Raw or Smackdown goes off the air, so does the need to kayfabe things in my opinion. If it's not on WWF porgramming, then I don't consider it part of the show.

 

I think the Rock has been a great ambassador for professional wrestling to the mainstream media. He comes across like a real person and has always treated the wrestling business with great respect in every interview I have seen him done. Unlike Hogan and Vince, who come across as delusional cartoon characters.

[Guest bcu1979]

I have stated many times that I think Rock jobs TOO MUCH. However, I think the only TRULY high profile jobs Rock has done which might give a rub to the other person in the masses eyes is Austin and Triple H. Now tell me if those two aren't seen as big dogs without a win over Rock? I also agree about Austin as well as most should know since I have stated he has been half assing it since Hogan and company came in.  

I also agree he only jobs to established guys.

 

I think the Jericho thing has the verdict that his wins over Rock and Austin just wasn't impressive to the masses. Once he beat Rock(which Rock always loses meaning beating him doesn't really mean nothing in storyline terms) and then beats Austin by screwjob big deal. Jobbing sometimes as I stated doesn't mean you put the guy over. It only made Rock and Austin look like they got screwed because they were suppose to win.

I think the Rock's job to Jericho at No Mercy WOULD have qualified for your list had the WWF not screwed it up by having him lose the title back to Rock two weeks later. The buildup to the match was great as Rock really sold Jericho as legitimate threat to him and the title.

 

The fans were buying it as well. The crowd heat for the Rock/Jericho match was off the charts with many of the fans cheering for Jericho. There was a huge pop for Jericho's win and the announcers played it up like it was a huge moment. No, it was not completely clean. But Jericho's win made sense in that it led to his new cocky character and his eventual heel turn.

 

I agree that Rock sometimes does pointless jobs that hurt his character. But I believed Jericho benefited more from beating Rock than most because the announcers played it up like it was important. He also got to mention it every week in his promos how many times he pinned the Rock.

 

What really makes wins and losses seem pointless is when a top guy gets pinned and it's never mentioned again. I remember when Booker T pinned Austin once in a handicap match and it was never even mentioned again. Same goes when Booker T pinned Triple H on a Raw match. Rhyno pinned Rock in a tag match and it never meant a thing.

 

Doing a job and putting someone over are too completely different things. Certain wrestlers have learned the art of doing the former and claiming they did the later. But Rock is not one of those wrestlers. I would argue that Rock did put Jericho over. Both at No Mercy and again at Royal Rumble. I don't think a wrestler has to lose 100% clean to put someone else over as long as the finish of the match fits into the storylines and the heat is put on the wrestler going over, not some third-party or some McMahon family member with a huge ego.

 

When Jericho pinned Rock at No Mercy, he was the one who did the Breakdown on Rock on to the chair.

 

When Jericho pinned Rock at Vengeance, Vince distracted the ref but it was Jericho who hit the low blow and Rock Bottom on Rock for the pin.

 

When Jericho pinned Rock at Royal Rumble, Storm & CHristian intrerfered but they played no part in the ending. It was Jericho cheating his ass off to ensure he kept the title and pin the Rock once again.

 

When Jericho pinned Austin at Vengeance, Booker T ran out and hit Austin with the belt. Jericho rolled over on top of Austin.

 

When Jericho beat Austin the next night in the cage, Booker T ran out and slammed the door in Austin's face. Jericho crawled out of the cage.

 

When Jericho pinned Austin at No Way Out, the NWO ran out and beat Austin up. Jericho crawled over and pinned Austin.

 

Big difference in the two lists. Everytime Jericho beat Rock, the emphaisis was on Jericho. Everytime Jericho beat Austin, the emphasis was on Austin's next opponent.

 

There were lots of things the WWF did wrong with Jericho's title reign. But his program with Rock was one of the few bright spots and part of the credit goes to Rock's "flippant" attitude about losing.

[Guest mastermind]

bcu1979 I think you are correct on the No Mercy thing with Jericho. The way it was built up was beautiful. Jericho finally winning the big one clean or not. Too bad Rock got the win back on national tv. Rock did say Jericho is a close friend right? Just like Austin losing to Regal when he returned in late 2000 or early 2000. Aren't those two running buddies allegedly. Just saying. I also agree the wrestler doesn't have to go over clean to be put over.

 

They like to say wins and losses don't count, but look how things are booked. Rock doesn't really look inferior in his matches along with Triple H and the other main eventers. Rock couldn't even lose to a former wcw world champion in a handi-cap match for crying out loud. That's not insulting? Look at all the top matches of Trips, Rock, and Austin compared to everyone else. If losses mean jack please tell me why they are so afraid to push Booker T or people like RVD? Because the fans back WINNERS that's why.

 

I'm not blaming Rock for the stupid storylines. I'm just pointing out the blatant lie perpetrated by the wwf that it now tries not to insult their viewer's intelligence. It's not true. Rock goes into interviews saying stuff like that. I admit though wrestling is more realistic in the last 5 years than it was in the early 90's.

 

"How is wrestling any different from any other television show"?

 

Now this question is probably the biggest question in the whole thread. Wrestling ISN'T like any other tv show. First of all most of the "cast" aren't real actors per se. The whole roster can be more argued in favour of being athletes. Let's be serious here Benoit isn't known for his acting skills. Neither is Triple H. Niether are Billy and Chuck. The list goes on. The best "characters" are the ones which are an extension of the person. In a regular tv show this is not the case. That's why off-camera if you see these people in somewhat kayfabe terms it adds to the intensity.

 

Austin's character works because he simply just SEEMS like that kind of person. The wwf gave him a "gimmick" before and it didn't take off. Rocky Maivia was also the same kind of deal. Johnson returns as THE ROCK and he takes off. You see not your average television show. Another point to be taken is the "story" of the "show" basically leads to an athletic storytelling in the ring in front of a live crowd. Not your typical television show.

 

The "props" are championship titles. The pecking order generally is based on these championships. It is vital for fans to take the champions as champions or the television show won't sell in ratings. The wwf goes to arenas across the country and world. Not your typical Friends episode is it? People are pushed based on live crowd reaction. This isn't done in movies. Crowd participation is important.

 

To make the champions and matches important wrestlers NEED to go to "work". They never actually go out and tell how the matches were staged or who was told what and so on. When Austin shows up in Texas he is revered for his "accomplishments" in the wwf. British Bulldog in Great Britain. Bret Hart in Canda. You get the point. Fans don't take their announced homes as a tv show. They take pride that the wrestler is from that place. Michael J. Fox is from Canada I don't see him get the fan fare Bret got when he got off the plane here when he won the wwf title at summerslam 97. Wrestling is a very different tv show. It is also a very different "sport".

[Guest]

As far as I'm concerned, Duane Johsnon can do whatever he feels is doing right by him and his wife (and any kids they might have, do they have kids yet?)

 

He is a great ambassador for professional wrestling (and professional wrestling fans) to a mainstream world that still thinks of it primarily as "idiot rednecks cheering on freaks in tights as they pretend to punch each other."  As such, I think it would be a shame for the wrestling world to permanently lose someone who adds a touch of class and sophistication to it when he ventures into the mainstream world.

 

BUT, hey, if backstage politics are pushing him to the back burner in wrestling, and guys like Triple H are doing right by themselves at the expense of guys like The Rock who do right by the entire business...isn't it the WWF's own fault if The Rock kicks wrestling to the curb?  (Triple H sure as shit ain't going to be starring in any big budget action films that might recruit new fans to the wrestling world.)

 

The more I think about it, the more it reminds me of the Hulk Hogan vs Greg Gagne in the AWA.  Hogan had superstar power coming out of Rocky III.  Hogan could've drawn huge money for the AWA as world champ, because he was a "crossover hit."

 

But no, Verne pushed Hulk to the back burner, made his son Greg World champ.  Vince snatches up Hogan,  Hulkamania explodes and loads up the WWF coffers, and AWA withers and dies.  

 

Now, it isn't exactly the same now, but there are some key parallels.  Sure, Rock is a huge star.  Sure, just about everybody knows that pro wrestling matches have predetermined endings, and in that sense is not "athletic competition" (maybe athletic cooperation in the same sense as, say, a ballet).  But those same people tend to know that wrestling is a popularity contest.  Your guy wins if you cheer loud enough for him, sorta.  

 

So what happens when all these new fans show up to cheer for the Rock only to see him punked out by Triple H, Kevin Nash, Vince McMahon, et al?  They came to see the rock, and they're going to go right back to the movies where The Rock is the star.

 

The Rock needs to be the man.  Now we, the internet cult, may not be to happy about that, because he can't do a Sky Twister Falcon Arrow Flying Space Tiger Mumbo Jumbo Drop Bomb or whatever, but so what?  At least he doesn't bury the guys who can.  And who knows, maybe one of the guys who can will be the next mainstream superstar.

 

If The Rock's there, as the man, to give them the rub.

 

I think the wrestling business owes The Rock much more respect than he's getting from it -- and its fans -- right now.  And if The Scorpion King does take off and launch his movie career, there's no reason for him to put up with all the shit we give him.

 

And "selling out" is The American Way.  We yankees -- especially those of us who so proudly wear our T-shirts with huge corporate logos on them, willingly bending over asshole-first for Corporate America and saying "let me pay for the honor of being your personal billboard" -- don't have any legs to stand on here, because what The Rock may be on the cusp of doing is what our entire political-economic system says is okay (and moreover, Right) to do.

 

Those of you from Canada and England can continue to bitch about it though.