Bin laden: freedom fighter?

[Guest]

Thanks Mike. What disgusts me is that the Europeans still steadfastly refuse to see what's right in front of them.

Palestinian leaders have admitted, in so many words, that Oslo was nothing more than a blind - just a pause to regroup and re-arm. They never had any intention of exchanging land for peace (not that bribing terrorists is a great idea anyway). Arafat is and has always been a pawn of violently anti-Semitic Arab regimes. Peace is the last thing he and his sponsors want. What they want is an interminable proxy war against Israel. And he's a willing puppet. What sort of proof is the world waiting for? Weren't 50 fucking tons of explosives, mortars, and small arms enough? Do we want to see them used against women and children before we're willing to take action against murderering apostles of hate and destruction?

 

Not that it's really all that surprising. The EU has always had its lips wrapped tightly around the PLO's oil-spewing cock.

(Incidentally, it was Britain's newspapers that shrieked "TORTURE!" at photographs of Guantánamo Bay prisoners wearing - horror of horrors! - shackles. But no, we're inhuman slavers because we put them in leg irons and tranquilised a few to prevent them from trying to take over yet another aeroplane... WTF! They're prisoners! We're in the middle of a fucking WAR! Did you somehow miss that across the Atlantic?)

 

The most terrible aspect of the whole bloody mess is that in the end it's the civilians who end up being the losers.

Arafat's corrupt, incompetent "Authority" demanded the immunities of a sovereign state but refused to observe any of the concomitant responsibilities. Instead he raised a brainwashed generation of suicide bombers with "holy martyrdom" propaganda. No economic restructuring not even the barest breath of a pretense of cultural, political, or social reformation. No establishment of lasting judicial institutions. Just eight separate "security forces" cracking down on anyone who dares to disparage Arafat's regime. This is supposed to be the last best hope for peace in the Middle East? They're royally screwed up the ass if that's true.

Oslo was a total gift to Arafat. He got land, legitimacy, and weapons. Israel, in return, got blood and death. I sure as hell can't blame them for giving up on this pathetic, lying, duplicitous little asshole. Arafat's proven again and again that he can't be trusted. How long before we finally accept that his word means nothing? How many more deaths? How much more horror?

 

Another point that rarely makes it into the atrocity-obsessed media is that the Saudi "peace proposal" is full of shit. A tiny buried clause states that Israel must withdraw from "the rest of occupied Lebanon." Newsflash: they already withdrew from Lebanon. The United Nations, not known for always being terribly pro-Israeli, delineated a border years ago. Israel has pulled back to its side. What did they get out of that? 8000 Hizbullah rockets aimed at Israeli cities, and new, completely unjustified claims on the Shaaba Farms. The Saudis are just trying to divert attention from Arafat's terrorists in the wake of 9/11.

The reason Israel took the Golan Heights in the first place was because militants regularly used the region to mount artillery attacks on civilians - this in times of "peace." Where are the Israelis now? Back where they started. No, worse - even more people are dead, blown apart by despicable conscienceless murdering criminal scum systematically indoctrinated with racist hatred. The blood of innocents is splattered up half a dozen stories of countless buildings, their limbs flung across countless streets. These are the oppressors? These are the bad guys? Why does it look like they're bleeding, battered, and terrified?

 

If that was peace, I'll take war. At least it's more honest. And the death toll might be lower.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Thanks Mike. What disgusts me is that the Europeans still steadfastly refuse to see what's right in front of them.>>>

 

 

I can all but guarantee you that a major part of their blindness is simply because America is on Israel's side.

 

The other part of their blindness is that Europe, quite frankly, is an exceptionally anti-Semitic continent (and their record of racial tolerance makes it QUITE laughable to hear them condemn the U.S for much of anything).

 

 

<<<Palestinian leaders have admitted, in so many words, that Oslo was nothing more than a blind - just a pause to regroup and re-arm. They never had any intention of exchanging land for peace (not that bribing terrorists is a great idea anyway). Arafat is and has always been a pawn of violently anti-Semitic Arab regimes. Peace is the last thing he and his sponsors want. What they want is an interminable proxy war against Israel.>>>

 

 

Absoutely. Arafat knows that he cannot possibly actually build a Palestinian state, so he's better off simply griping incessantly about the plight of the "people" he "represents" (represents in the same manner that the Chinese Communist Party represent everybody in China).

 

BTW, if Islam is truly a religion of peace, then why did a Saudi cleric, while delivering a seron at the holy Mecca, call the Jews the monkeys of civilization and called for Israel to be exterminated?

 

And, just to show that the press had an anti-Israel hard-on, Reuters, when describing the speech, said that the cleric said that "peace with Israel is not possible".

 

 

<<<And he's a willing puppet.>>>

 

 

I won't even call him a puppet. He's made of the identical cloth. He would never acknowledge anything resembling human rights should he actually have any power. He is definitely pro-censorship. He's simply a disgusting sub-human leading a group of people too ignorant to know any better.

 

 

<<<What sort of proof is the world waiting for? Weren't 50 fucking tons of explosives, mortars, and small arms enough? Do we want to see them used against women and children before we're willing to take action against murderering apostles of hate and destruction?>>>

 

 

I still love that the European press has NO problem accepting Arafat's claims at face value.

 

One would think that Hitler would have taught them a lesson.

 

Then again, one can also now think that the ONLY reason most of continental Europe opposed the Nazis was not due to their evil policies, but simply because they invaded their land.

 

And the continental Europeans wish to look at US as if WE were the less enlightened country?

 

 

<<<Not that it's really all that surprising. The EU has always had its lips wrapped tightly around the PLO's oil-spewing cock.

(Incidentally, it was Britain's newspapers that shrieked "TORTURE!" at photographs of Guantánamo Bay prisoners wearing - horror of horrors! - shackles. But no, we're inhuman slavers because we put them in leg irons and tranquilised a few to prevent them from trying to take over yet another aeroplane... WTF! They're prisoners! We're in the middle of a fucking WAR! Did you somehow miss that across the Atlantic?)>>>

 

 

I also loved that they called the conditions that the prisoners were held in were inhuman---yet those same people VACATION THERE all of the time.

 

And, as conservatives pointed out at the time, nice of the European press to wail and moan about the "cruel" treatment of Al Qaeda prisoners at Guantanamo---but the Cuban gov't's treatment of CUBANS in their prison system was, apparently, just peachy.

 

 

<<<The most terrible aspect of the whole bloody mess is that in the end it's the civilians who end up being the losers.

Arafat's corrupt, incompetent "Authority" demanded the immunities of a sovereign state but refused to observe any of the concomitant responsibilities. Instead he raised a brainwashed generation of suicide bombers with "holy martyrdom" propaganda.>>>

 

 

Terrific point. And very well-stated. Arafat DOES want all of the perks of a state without respecting ANY of the responsibilities.

 

 

<<<No economic restructuring not even the barest breath of a pretense of cultural, political, or social reformation. No establishment of lasting judicial institutions. Just eight separate "security forces" cracking down on anyone who dares to disparage Arafat's regime.>>>

 

 

Well, if that's good enough for more than a few members of the UN Human Rights Council (a group, it should be noted again, the U.S was voted off of), it should be good enough for the Peace Prize winner Arafat.

 

And people wonder why so many Americans view the Nobel Peace Prize AND the U.N as such inept institutions.

 

 

<<<This is supposed to be the last best hope for peace in the Middle East? They're royally screwed up the ass if that's true.

Oslo was a total gift to Arafat. He got land, legitimacy, and weapons.>>>

 

 

And legitimacy. Never forget that. He got a Nobel Peace Prize---and when some rumblings came up about "taking back" the Peace Prize from one of the parties who won in that year, they were friggin' complaining about Perez, not Arafat.

 

 

<<<Israel, in return, got blood and death. I sure as hell can't blame them for giving up on this pathetic, lying, duplicitous little asshole. Arafat's proven again and again that he can't be trusted. How long before we finally accept that his word means nothing? How many more deaths? How much more horror?>>>

 

 

I, once again, want Israel to simply do whatever they want to end this. The world, outside of the U.S and Britain (well, Britain hasn't been as outspoken against Israel), have turned their back on them and have left them to die because, darn it, Europeans have more important things to worry about than the death of a bunch of Jews.

 

Lord knows they've never worried about Jewish deaths BEFORE---I feel quite foolish for expecting anything to change this time around.

 

 

<<<Another point that rarely makes it into the atrocity-obsessed media is that the Saudi "peace proposal" is full of shit. A tiny buried clause states that Israel must withdraw from "the rest of occupied Lebanon." Newsflash: they already withdrew from Lebanon. The United Nations, not known for always being terribly pro-Israeli, delineated a border years ago. Israel has pulled back to its side. What did they get out of that? 8000 Hizbullah rockets aimed at Israeli cities, and new, completely unjustified claims on the Shaaba Farms. The Saudis are just trying to divert attention from Arafat's terrorists in the wake of 9/11.>>>

 

 

And the U.N and EU are completely behind them, telling Israel to just bend over and prepare for the shafting.

 

 

<<<The reason Israel took the Golan Heights in the first place was because militants regularly used the region to mount artillery attacks on civilians - this in times of "peace." Where are the Israelis now? Back where they started. No, worse - even more people are dead, blown apart by despicable conscienceless murdering criminal scum systematically indoctrinated with racist hatred. The blood of innocents is splattered up half a dozen stories of countless buildings, their limbs flung across countless streets.>>>

 

 

And these SAME sub-humans have no problem killing THEIR OWN CIVILIANS. Jenin showed that.

 

 

<<<These are the oppressors? These are the bad guys? Why does it look like they're bleeding, battered, and terrified?

 

If that was peace, I'll take war. At least it's more honest. And the death toll might be lower.>>>

 

 

I want to see a high death toll now. If nobody outside of the U.S and maybe Britain will help Israel, then they have no need to concern themselves with the condemnation of the rest of the world.

                             -=Mike

 

...And, no, I'm not Jewish. I'm just anti-sub-human slugs---so I have to be anti-Arafat and the Muslim governments

[Guest DrTom]

"I said last week that Israel expelling every Palestinian might be a bad idea.

 

I no longer think so."

 

Mike, I'm glad you've come over to the dark side.  I ran out of patience for Arafat (and the world's stupid and improbable fellating of him at every opportunity) some time ago.  The best way for this to end is for the Palestinians to be kicked out, and for Arafat to wind up dead in a pile of camel shit somewhere, with a couple of bullet holes in the side of his head.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

"I said last week that Israel expelling every Palestinian might be a bad idea.

 

I no longer think so."

 

Mike, I'm glad you've come over to the dark side.  I ran out of patience for Arafat (and the world's stupid and improbable fellating of him at every opportunity) some time ago.  The best way for this to end is for the Palestinians to be kicked out, and for Arafat to wind up dead in a pile of camel shit somewhere, with a couple of bullet holes in the side of his head. >>>

 

 

What I'm seeing here is the friggin' world abandoning Israel in favor of friggin' PALESTINE. What the heck?

 

I will support Israel in whatever actions they choose to take---no matter how "brutal". I've already learned to discount most of press' reporting on the whole conflict (the Jenin "massacre" is especially embarrassing for the int'l press).

                                -=Mike

[Guest]

I'm with you on that one. Israel has a self-correcting system with independent institutions and both constitutional and judicial oversight. When Israel commits a crime, Israelis deal with it and punish the criminals. The Palestinians have demonstrated time and time again that they cannot and will not. The PA is a bunch of thugs, plain and simple, perfectly willing to butcher their own people as well as Israeli civilians. Expecting them to arrest the terrorists is like expecting the Taliban to arrest al Qaeda. It ain't gonna happen.

The response should be exactly the same.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

Reserve Nazism is never a solution to anything. Israel might as well find the Hebrew translation to Seig Heil and introduce the stiff-arm salute if they were to start ethnicly cleansing their own country. But wait, it's ok for them to do it, but wrong for Slobo because he's a communist right?

[Guest]

You might be interested in this article. The media seems to be getting some of the facts for a change.

 

Seriously, if Israel were interested in perpetrating genocide, why on earth would it take them so long? I'd expect the IDF to wipe out every last Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank within two days, tops - if it were on their agenda. It isn't. It never has been.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Reserve Nazism is never a solution to anything. Israel might as well find the Hebrew translation to Seig Heil and introduce the stiff-arm salute if they were to start ethnicly cleansing their own country. But wait, it's ok for them to do it, but wrong for Slobo because he's a communist right? >>>

 

 

It's OK for Israel because ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED and the world is condemning them for fighting back.

 

Why in the world should Israel give a darn if the world doesn't like their actions. The world is too blind towards Arafat to know any better.

                  -=Mike

[Guest Some Guy]

Israel gets attacked, they return fire, Israel gets attacked, they return fire, rinse and repeat.  Isreal gets attacked again, they try make peace, Araffat walks out on the peace talks and releases a lot of terrorists from prison.  He starts an Intafada (sp?) (terrorist warfare) and continues to support the killing of Israeli civillians.  Israel fights back, and they're the bad guys.

Somehow I don't get it.

[Guest]

The point of the article and my other post were to show you what Bin Laden and more importantly his supporters think. This IS important as unless you address the reason for terrorism ("Drain the swamp" as Rumsfield will say) terrorism will continue to grow. The fact is if someone wants to kill you because you American or Jewish then don't need any infrastructre, they need a textbook or failing that their bare hands.

 

Bin Ladein claims that the 5 reasons I gave his demands and the 4 reasons for his haterd are genine (plus America's "loose morals). It doesn't matter whether there true or not that must be the reason his supporters are willing to die. Bin Laden is no orator so it must be his message that is winning people over.

 

Dispate what you lot fool yourself into thinking America has not been a bengin infulence in the Middle East/ Muslim world. They have directly supported dictatorships in Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Iran (pre-revoultion), the Tailban in Afghanistan, Indonesia and today the dictatorships in the 'Stan countries of Asia that are (with the exception of Pakistan) are denying people religous freedom driving people into the hands o Islamist.

 

Also America has indirectly helped keep the other Arab dictatorships in power.

 

Post not finished

 

Lots of Love

Will

xxx

[Guest]

unless you address the reason for terrorism ("Drain the swamp" as Rumsfield will say) terrorism will continue to grow

You are, of course, completely misrepresenting what the Secretary of Defense said. These are his actual words, in context:

In the past, we were used to dealing with armies and navies and air forces and ships and guns and tanks and planes. This adversary is different. It does not have any of those things. It does not have high-value targets that we can go after. But those countries that support them and give sanctuary do have such targets. The terrorists do not function in a vacuum.

 

They don't live in Antarctica. They work, they train and they plan in countries. They're benefiting from the support of governments. They're benefiting from the support of non-governmental organizations that are either actively supporting them with money, intelligence and weapons or allowing them to function on their territory and tolerating if not encouraging their activities. In either case, it has to stop.

 

We'll have to deal with the networks. One of the ways to do that is to drain the swamp they live in. And that means dealing not only with the terrorists, but those who harbor terrorists. This will take a long, sustained effort. It will require the support of the American people as well as our friends and allies around the world.

It's quite clear that Mr Rumsfeld was referring to the use of military strikes and other direct ways of holding state sponsors of terrorism, such as Iraq, accountable for their actions.

 

Bin Ladein claims that the 5 reasons I gave his demands and the 4 reasons for his haterd are genine

Bin Laden is a liar. He had never once mentioned Kashmir prior to the videotapes broadcast after 9/11. He is merely seizing on all causes linked in any way to the Moslem religion in order to inflame hatred of the United States. And yes, it does matter whether or not he's telling the truth, because his message is wrong. I know perfectly well that we have not been a wholly benign influence in the world, especially the Middle East, and I'm sure Mike knows that too. That doesn't change the fact that we have, overwhelmingly, done far more good for the Moslem world than bad. We have saved Moslem lives in countless countries. We give aid to starving people across the globe, and many of them are Moslem. We do more for the Moslems than Osama bin Laden and all the Moslem rulers put together ever have. (And please keep in mind that GIVING AID was once called "charity," and it is not a binding legal obligation. Aid is something you should never expect, and if you get it, you should fucking well be grateful for it. Aid is not a right, although that is more and more how it's seen.)

Don't pretend for one instant that refusing to get involved with every stupid, petty religious conflict Moslems have been embroiled in for decade upon decade of blood and death is somehow a reflection on us. We have NO responsibility to the Kashmiris. The Indians and the Pakistanis created that problem all by themselves.

 

Why were we attacked again? For not solving all the world's problems instantly? You bet your ass we'll retaliate.

 

The point of the article and my other post were to show you what Bin Laden and more importantly his supporters think.

We. Don't. CARE. If you attack the United States, if you murder our innocent people, if you attempt to terrorise our citizens, you will be found and you will be punished. Why you attacked us is utterly irrelevant.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<The point of the article and my other post were to show you what Bin Laden and more importantly his supporters think. This IS important as unless you address the reason for terrorism ("Drain the swamp" as Rumsfield will say) terrorism will continue to grow. The fact is if someone wants to kill you because you American or Jewish then don't need any infrastructre, they need a textbook or failing that their bare hands.>>>

 

 

And, sadly, the Muslim world is LADEN with such books.

 

 

<<<Bin Ladein claims that the 5 reasons I gave his demands and the 4 reasons for his haterd are genine (plus America's "loose morals). It doesn't matter whether there true or not that must be the reason his supporters are willing to die. Bin Laden is no orator so it must be his message that is winning people over.>>>

 

 

His followers are idiots, plain and simple. He's Jim Jones without the Communist sympathizing.

 

 

<<<Dispate what you lot fool yourself into thinking America has not been a bengin infulence in the Middle East/ Muslim world. They have directly supported dictatorships in Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Iran (pre-revoultion), the Tailban in Afghanistan, Indonesia and today the dictatorships in the 'Stan countries of Asia that are (with the exception of Pakistan) are denying people religous freedom driving people into the hands o Islamist.>>>

 

 

Ummm, WHO in that area, outside of Israel, could the U.S possibly support that isn't a dictatorship denying people religious freedom?

 

It's not like the Muslim theocracies are sympathetic towards other religions.

 

 

<<<Also America has indirectly helped keep the other Arab dictatorships in power.>>>

 

 

Hmm, outside of Turkey, are their Muslim countries that aren't total dictatorships?

                                 -=Mike

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"It's OK for Israel because ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED and the world is condemning them for fighting back."

 

Funny, I seem to recall the last Balkan war being about Albanian rebels fighting against the Serb government and then Slobo coming in and ethnicly cleansing them out, resulting in his much-deserved war crimes trial. Of course, just like Israel, it's naive to choose a starting point for the problems there and saying "you hit me first!", since the issues run much deeper. And promoting the "Final Solution to the Palestinian question" is not made any better by tactfully avoiding that choice of language.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

"It's OK for Israel because ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED and the world is condemning them for fighting back."

 

Funny, I seem to recall the last Balkan war being about Albanian rebels fighting against the Serb government and then Slobo coming in and ethnicly cleansing them out, resulting in his much-deserved war crimes trial.>>>

 

 

Of course, Israel isn't doing anything close to that---but yet receive the same condemnation. If the world is going to condemn them for what is, quite frankly, a very modest retalliation, then they should go ahead and unleash the dogs upon the Palestinian "state".

 

 

<<<Of course, just like Israel, it's naive to choose a starting point for the problems there and saying "you hit me first!", since the issues run much deeper. And promoting the "Final Solution to the Palestinian question" is not made any better by tactfully avoiding that choice of language.>>>

 

 

Put youself in Israel's shoes for a moment.

 

You give the PLO a very generous offer at Oslo. Arafat refuses it.

 

You then learn that not only has Arafat decided to refuse to sign the accord, you ALSO learn that he has, most likely, been building up his terrorist network.

 

You then learn that he has unleashed an intifada against you and you are bombarded by homicide bombers.

 

For weeks, you do NOTHING in retaliation---but the bombers continue.

 

Then they start to plant second bombs to kill rescue workers. Then they attempt to smuggle bombers in via ambulances.

 

Then they bomb a gathering during Passover.

 

With that, you decide that you have no other option outside of retaliation. Thus, you retaliate with a response that is remarkably mild. A tiny part of a refugee camp in Jenin is levelled---and the destruction of the camp was the fault of the TERRORISTS, not of you.

 

You sit back and watch as the world COMPLETELY buys everything Arafat has said. The world condemns you for the Jenin "massacre" even though death totals were grossly overstated (according to Palestinian terrorists) and, again, most of the damage was caused by the Palestinians. You sit back and watch as the UN SUPPORTS Palestine in their "armed struggle" and completely condemns you for retaliation.

 

You then get heat for not going along with a U.N-led inspection of Jenin since you are quite aware that the UN is hardly sympathetic to your cause and is QUITE sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

 

You see Jews around the world be targeted. You see synagogues worldwide getting bombed and graffitied while the officials in the various cities barely pay lip service to the problem.

 

Now---you have to deal with ALL of that.

 

At what point do you realize that the world will not support you no matter what and, thus, decide to defend yourselves at all costs?

                 -=Mike

[Guest]

The comparison of Israeli retaliation to the Holocaust is getting really old, and frankly, it's extremely offensive - and also completely unjustified, but that's hardly remarkable.

 

Incidentally, Israel didn't just reject the UN proposal because of the team's likely sympathies; they also rejected it because Kofi Annan idiotically specified far broader terms of reference for the inspection than had been previously agreed. Israel rightly interpreted that as a betrayal and an outrageous violation of their sovereignty.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"The comparison of Israeli retaliation to the Holocaust is getting really old, and frankly, it's extremely offensive - and also completely unjustified, but that's hardly remarkable."

 

I'm not comparing their retalitation or military defenses to the Holocaust, not at all. What I'm comparing to the Holocaust is this Nazish idea that the Israelis should be allowed to ethnicly cleanse the whole country of arabs.

[Guest]

Ah, I see. Sorry. I think that comparison is fair enough; I'm not comfortable with the idea either.

[Guest Invader3k]

Israel shouldn't be allowed to "ethnically cleanse (ie murder)" the Arab population in their borders, but they should be allowed to expell a population that is making it nearly impossible for them to exist as a normal country.

[Guest Risk]

If Israelies and Arabians want to kill each other and not even concider peace treaties, why should the US get involved?  We aren't the best nation IMO, we have strong censorship, but we have FREEDOM.  The most heinous crimes are those which take away someone's freedom.

 

If we keep getting involved than we will be looked on as peace keepers or police of the world, or worse, we could be seen as trying to control the world(maybe we are).  Taking 5,000 INNOCENT lives to continue some STUPID RELIGIOUS WAR  and forcing us to get involved is insane.  Clear and simple.

 

It really doesn't matter who has which land, as long as everyone has enough.  If the US doesn't get its DESERVED revenge and justice on bin Laden, I suspect we will do something drastic and deadly.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

If Israelies and Arabians want to kill each other and not even concider peace treaties, why should the US get involved?  We aren't the best nation IMO, we have strong censorship, but we have FREEDOM.  The most heinous crimes are those which take away someone's freedom.>>>

 

 

I'm wondering---where is this strong censorship we have? Our press is more open than anybody's in the world.

 

 

<<<If we keep getting involved than we will be looked on as peace keepers or police of the world, or worse, we could be seen as trying to control the world(maybe we are).  Taking 5,000 INNOCENT lives to continue some STUPID RELIGIOUS WAR  and forcing us to get involved is insane.  Clear and simple.>>>

 

 

Absolutely. We've been involved from the get-go as we have urged restraint by Israel.

 

I still say screw that. Let them do what they have to do.

 

 

<<<It really doesn't matter who has which land, as long as everyone has enough.  If the US doesn't get its DESERVED revenge and justice on bin Laden, I suspect we will do something drastic and deadly. >>>

 

 

We've gotten our revenge.

 

Taliban is out of power.

 

Al Qaeda has been shredded.

 

bin Laden is very likely dead.

                        -=Mike

[Guest]

Some of you have mentioned the media distorting the facts on the Jenin massacre. How do you know if you get yuor information from the media? Id just like to know, Im not trying to make any kind of point.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Some of you have mentioned the media distorting the facts on the Jenin massacre. How do you know if you get yuor information from the media? Id just like to know, Im not trying to make any kind of point. >>>

 

 

When we're discussing the media in this situation, we're normally discussing the European press (the American press has done little reporting of this, honestly). What I go by are the release of aerial photos of Jenin, showing the lack of destruction over a wide area and by reading accounts of interviews with terrorists and some of the propaganda from human rights groups that basically show how absurd their positions are.

                    -=Mike

[Guest]

The thing is, Ghast, the media tends to treat Palestinian claims as gospel and Israeli claims as merely claims. Thus the recent headlines: "Hundreds Dead In Jenin Massacre." This is followed by the body of the text, in much smaller print: "Palestinian sources say that the Israeli army slaughtered hundreds of innocent civilians, blah blah blah." A little later, perhaps three or four paragraphs down, you might see: "The IDF spokesman denied these claims." (And if you're in Europe, not even that.) I lean towards believing Israel because it is a stable democracy with established, transparent, and publicly accountable institutions. The Palestinian Authority (not necessarily Palestinian civilians), on the other hand, is composed of thugs and terrorists who have a major vested interest in making Israel look as bad as possible, and they have a documented history of being completely untrustworthy. They bully, cheat, and murder their own people; they lie to them from birth and they use them as disposable weapons. Why would they tell the truth to us?

[Guest Some Guy]

The British and German's should be on Israel's side IMO.  The British created Israel and the Germans greatly increased the Zionist movement through their horrific treatment of the Jews (Horrific treatment is putting it very, very lightly).

 

EDIT: I think the Brits are, right?

[Guest Risk]

I want to see bin Laden's dead body before I believe he's dead.

[Guest]

I think the British have historically voted on the Arab side, SG, although they're much less anti-Israel than the continental Europeans.

[Guest Some Guy]

Thanks Marney, I wasn't quite sure, since Blair seems to be pretty tough on terrorism in is poat-9/11 speeches.  Have you heard him?  He is more "hawkish" than Bush sometimes.

[Guest]

I've heard him, yeah, and you're right. I like him because he's sincerely grieved by death. He was the same way over Bosnia. Thing is, British foreign policy has (in the past) been shaped primarily by oil, which is why they've always voted against Israel in the UN. After 9/11, though, I expect a lot of that at least shifted, even if it didn't change outright.

[Guest]

Okay you don't care about the reasons behind Sept 11th fine! But sooner or later you'll reap the whirlwind. America cannot keep going on like this pretending that nothing can hurt it, that it is automatically right.

 

This is not a war it is an anti-terrorist campagin and must be treated as such. America needs to liaise with muslim states and people to find out when the next attack is happening.

 

Yes Bin Laden is a mad man, fueled by a messanic image of himself and a racist hatred of America and Western Civilastion but his followers ARE NOT! No one will willingly kill themself and others unless they think they have reason to!

 

You are all very keen on refering back to the Nazi's well fine, but if look properly it was the western world's refusal to be fair and just with Germany, to give Germany and its people its respect back, its bullying of Wemair to sign to the War Guilt clause that gave Hitler the message, the hook for his facist agenda which was entirely aginst Germany's demorcratic tradition.

 

If you humilate people, if you deny them their statehood then sooner or later someone will come and tell these people who have NOTHING TO LOOSE to fuck them, fuck those who have kept you like this.

 

No terrorist organistaion has ever had the resources to defeat a state, that is why they stop short of civil war. What they try and do instead is to provoke the state into an OTT and brutal response hoping that will cause a swelling in support. This always work it worked in Ulster in regards to British internment, it happened in Ireland after the Easter Rebellion IT WILL HAPPEN IN THE MUSLIM WORLD IF AMERICA DOSEN'T STOP!!!

 

America has with its money propped up Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, etc, etc. If you pulled you money out these dictatorships would collapse.

 

America has propped up Israel with its money. The only reason Israel can dictat terms to the Palenstinans is because of America and American money. This support has gifted the internal enemey that all dictatorship need as a safety valve and so indirectly America is responsible for the Lebonan and Syria dictatorshiops.

 

Dr. Tom says that the Arab world will have to "deal" with America's alliance with Israel, but Why? What does Israel offer you? It can't be used as a forward attacking base in any war except against Egypt or Jordan (both US allies) and America as plenty of forward bases for middle east action in Turley, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia (not to mention Romania and Hungary) which would be far easier to use if America didn't prop up Israel. America's ideal of exporting demorcarcy to the Middle East would be far easier if it wasn't containmented in the eyes of the arabs with Israel. Israel has humilated Israel and Bush by refusing to withdraw.The only gain I can see for Bush is the Evangelical Christian votes that he will get for supporting Israel.

 

I agree with you that Arafat is a corrupt dicator but that's a GOOD THING. Arafat is undoubtly neogaiting in bad faith but once he has his nice little state he would be higly unlikely to contentance any terrorist action as he would have something to loose by striking Israel. You look at the situation in Ireland when Ireland was partitioned in the 1920s it was meant to be a temprary thing with Ulster and Eire eventually being reunited, however it soon became permanet as the former terrorist that now ran Eire got far more interested in keeping what they got. That is the main thing about terrorism is usually the actions of those with nothing to loose, give them something and they usually stop as they want to mantain their power.

 

The fact is The War on Terror is in a mess because its seen as a war. To succed it must be carried out as an international policing and political campagin.

 

William

[Guest]

<I think the British have historically voted on the Arab side, SG, although they're much less anti-Israel than the continental Europeans>

 

Britian has historic links with the Arabs after practically ruling them following the collapse of the Ottaman Empire. With the exception of Syria and Egypt all the current Middle Eastern states were created by the British and many of them in particular Iraq and Egypt have had very close realtions with Britian.

 

However Britian has always been a very pro-Israel country it was Balfour's letter to the American Jews that he supported the idea of a zionist state in the Holy Land in 1917 is what started Jewish immigration into Palenstine.

 

Also despite its murky beginnings i.e the Zionist terrroist campagin during and after WW2, Britian and the rest of Europe fell in love with Israel. They loved the then left wing Jewish State many students went on trips to Israel. Indeed most Europeans saw Israel as a fellow European country not a Middle Eastern. Although the relationship has not been the same since the 80s, when one of the zionist terrorists got in as Prime Minister there were not particular awful until Sharon got in (who we should remember is Israel verson of Le Pen).

 

The British people has always (until December) been pro-Israeli although our Foreign Office has always been pro-Arab. Now I'm not so sure, although any backlash against Israel is entirely justified and is entirely Sharon's fault.

 

William