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[AndrewTS 0]

From the very beginning, I do notice that there are a lot of long scenes, but again, I read books and watch movies too!. There are tons of "long scenes" and stuff in them, and if you add some great gameplay and interactivity to a strong story, I have no problem with that. It's called having an attention span.

 

Gee, you've totally convinced me with your condescending tone, poor comparisons and failure to recognize any game flaw.

 

Guess what, I watch movies and read books too! That's why I feel a video game is a poor medium for Xenosaga. Then again, the writing isn't very good and the story is so littered with cliches that it wouldn't be a book or movie I'd have any interest in. Add in stupid, constant fanservice and some downright creepy stuff (not in the good way) and you have a game that's admittedly good core gameplay is overshadowed completely by the crap it is mired in.

 

The story was pretty hot, IMO, even if it wasn't what people expected.

 

MGS2's story sucked. I'll give you plenty of reasons why if you're going to persist with this foolishness. Face it, by the time we were getting near the end of the game, the developers were just pulling plot twists out of their ass with no regard to logic or continuity.

 

Not really. He's got Tidus syndrome in that he's a whiny nancyboy who was awkward and the exact opposite of the coldhearted, amazing badass that Snake was. He also had an annoying girlfriend and a teenage angst backstory about him, until you figured out what it was all about; however, by then, I had already grown accustomed to him, because I wasn't so turned off by the whole experience as omg not playing as snake!~ that I could understand where he was coming from and appreciate, if not like, him as a character. And I also understood why he was used, as opposed to Snake, for more than half the game. Was he a letdown as a character? Yes. Did it kill the game for me? No.

 

You still persist with this wise-ass, condescending tone, so I have no qualms about doing the same. The hate had nothing to do with "OMG not playing as snake!~", Mr. Straw Man. I had no real emotional attachment to Snake so strong that I had to play as him in the sequel, but the replacement so such a shoddy replacement it made me long for those nearly-endless Codec conversions from MGS1. Take a look at that fruitcake--it screams "you know, we don't really think Snake is so marketable anymore, let's try this guy, he looks like one of those Final Fantasy characters." It was a transparent, shameless pandering attempt. Combine that with the fact that Kojima lied to the media, lied to gamers, and baited and switched the protagonist and the main story with an annoying side story. I'm glad it blew up in Kojima's face, and wish it would have been uncovered before so many poor dopes shelled out for it.

 

I actually have no problem with them replacing Snake with some one else if the character works. Raiden didn't. Yes, I understand it would have been a neat idea to start with a rookie who wasn't as skilled or experienced as Snake, and such a rookie would still whine. However, "Jack's" past is rather contradictory to the whiny bitch we had to play in that game. Of course, if you buy into the whole genetic aspect, Raiden never had a chance in hell of living up to Snake, who was bred to be a soldier.

[Anya 0]

So...

 

Raiden was put into MGS2 to pander and because Snake wasn't marketable.

 

Yet they went out of their way to hide the fact that he was in and Snake wasn't.

 

 

Right then...

[AndrewTS 0]

So...

 

Raiden was put into MGS2 to pander and because Snake wasn't marketable.

 

Yet they went out of their way to hide the fact that he was in and Snake wasn't.

 

 

Right then...

Incorrect. Snake is marketable in the States, in Japan not so much, so they assumed Raiden would be more so in Japan and that he'd also be in America, considering the Final Fantasy series' popularity here.

 

Kojima foresaw how players might resist Raiden, so instead of letting the cat out the bag early, he "stuck" players with him, hoping he'd grow on players.

 

Perhaps I hadn't made that clear, but it should have been obvious considering Kojima's heritage and the typically provincialist nature of Japanese developers.

[Anya 0]

You're missing the point.

 

Why would you put in a character to be more marketable...then not market him?

 

 

And it's not to sell a future MGS3 since he was planned to be a one game character.

[Anya 0]

By early 1999 Kojima had come up with most of the game's plot. Players would start off onboard the tanker ship Discovery in the New York harbor. While everyone assumed that Snake would remain the main playable character in the game beyond the tanker, Kojima had an idea: Why not make Snake a part of the game but let the player see him from the perspective of someone completely new?

 

"When I was thinking about this game and the characters, I thought of the Sherlock Holmes series," he says. "Those books are written in the first person, but the narrator isn't Sherlock Holmes; it's Watson." Kojima says that this model inspired him to think of making the narrator in Metal Gear Solid 2 someone other than the main character. Before long, he had come up with a new character--a handsome and sensitive character who at first blush looks like the polar opposite of the gruff and antagonistic Solid Snake. "I really thought I would be able to better tell the story of Snake from the third person with this new character as our narrator for the majority of the game." But Kojima is adamant that MGS2 is still a game about Snake. "Make no mistake about it," he states. "Solid Snake is still the main character in Metal Gear Solid 2 even though he is not the main narrator this time around."

 

Kojima says that the introduction of this new character, code-named Raiden, also helped him solve another problem involving Snake and his relationship with Otacon and the coder-decoder interface (CODEC), frequently used throughout the game to convey important information. "When Metal Gear first came out 14 years ago, Snake was a rookie," he explains. "But Solid Snake truly became a hero after Metal Gear Solid, and he really doesn't need any more advice through the CODEC." If Snake could no longer use the CODEC, Kojima needed to create a new character who could make use of the CODEC--an important tool used to educate new players about how to interact with the game. Thus, the mysterious Raiden was born.

 

All of the characters in Metal Gear are created by Kojima in collaboration with Shinkawa. In early 1999, Kojima first told Shinkawa of his idea for a new protagonist in the story. "Mr. Kojima comes up to me and says, 'Can you draw this type of character?'" says Shinkawa, who admits he is often somewhat rebellious in his character design. Shinkawa says his rebelliousness is by design. "What fun would it be if I drew exactly what Mr. Kojima told me to do? What I try to do is realize my ideas along with his in the final design. That way the final character will inspire Mr. Kojima to take the series in a new direction."

 

"I really love the movie Terminator 2," he explains. "That movie was so great because you never knew that Arnold Schwarzenegger was the good cyborg when the movie started. When he appears at the beginning you assume he is bad like the first movie. But then it turns out he is good. I remember being so surprised by that turn of events." Taking his inspiration from that film, Kojima devised a plot device that would let him shock players in much the same way with Raiden's introduction. "When they reached the Plant chapter of the game I wanted them to wonder what was going on. And then they will meet this interesting character named Pliskin who looks and sounds like Snake. But is he Snake?"

 

Some members of the team expressed concern that players would want to play Solid Snake throughout the entire sequel, but Kojima says he was determined to bring a secret new character to the game. "Was I scared that people might not be happy about the new character? Not really," he says. "In a sequel you have to meet people's expectations, but you also sort of have to go against them and deceive them I think. This is my Metal Gear, and I can destroy it if I want to."

 

- The Final Hours of Metal Gear Solid 2.

[AndrewTS 0]

"You're missing the point.

 

Why would you put in a character to be more marketable...then not market him?"

 

A couple of reasons: first off, it would be a big surprise, a publicity stunt of sorts. Raiden wouldn't as-of-yet be marketable be image alone, because the aim was to have Snake rub off on him and establish him as a capable character on his own while still having a mentor figure there to guide him. Thereby, overcoming resistance to those who might be turned off by the image. In theory of course, and in practice Kojima failed to do that.

 

"And it's not to sell a future MGS3 since he was planned to be a one game character. "

 

You know this how exactly? Did that liar Kojima tell you?

 

Suuure, MGS2 leaves no room open for a sequel. Nope, nope. However, if there would be it would have been MGR, not MGS3.

 

It it was supposed to a "one-game character," why would they stick you with the character after pulling that surprise early in the game? Why did they take the game away from Snake in the first place? Why did they leave the game open to a sequel with several loose ends at the end of the game? Yeah, Raiden probably would switch to another organization, but he would have still have had several options available to continue the series.

[Anya 0]

You know this how exactly? Did that liar Kojima tell you?

 

 

Yeah. He talks about it in The Final Hours of Metal Gear Solid 2.

 

 

 

It it was supposed to a "one-game character," why would they stick you with the character after pulling that surprise early in the game? Why did they take the game away from Snake in the first place? Why did they leave the game open to a sequel with several loose ends at the end of the game? Yeah, Raiden probably would switch to another organization, but he would have still have had several options available to continue the series.

 

 

The reasons he was put in I just posted.

 

In the end of MGS2 Raiden's story is finished. He is done with fighting. He is told to NOT help Snake go find Liquid. According to Hideo that was going to be it for Raiden, though he said he might have changed his mind had a lot of fans demanded it.

 

 

 

I've posted the origin of Raiden from the mouth of Hideo himself. What have you got? Can you back up what you're saying at all or what?

[chaosrage 0]

I actually have Xenosaga, but I haven't gotten into it yet (due to the fact that I really don't have a lot of time to play lately) and it hasn't reeled me in yet from the very beginning. But then again, I'm not that far yet, so I'll have to keep going.

 

From the very beginning, I do notice that there are a lot of long scenes, but again, I read books and watch movies too!. There are tons of "long scenes" and stuff in them, and if you add some great gameplay and interactivity to a strong story, I have no problem with that. It's called having an attention span.

It's not just that they're long scenes. It's that unlike Xenogears, the long scenes don't go anywhere. At all. They just drag on forever. The first 5 hours could've been put into 40 minutes and you wouldn't lose anything. Just a bunch of annoying techno babble that makes you want to stab your eyes out. If it was a movie, I would've walked out after the first hour.

[AndrewTS 0]

"I really thought I would be able to better tell the story of Snake from the third person with this new character as our narrator for the majority of the game." But Kojima is adamant that MGS2 is still a game about Snake. "Make no mistake about it," he states. "Solid Snake is still the main character in Metal Gear Solid 2 even though he is not the main narrator this time around."

 

Bull. Why the secrecy then? Why not allow actual playable missions for Snake within MGS2--oh yeah, they added that in for the X-Box port, but still was a half-ass concession for a major mistake.

 

"When Metal Gear first came out 14 years ago, Snake was a rookie," he explains. "But Solid Snake truly became a hero after Metal Gear Solid, and he really doesn't need any more advice through the CODEC." If Snake could no longer use the CODEC, Kojima needed to create a new character who could make use of the CODEC--an important tool used to educate new players about how to interact with the game. Thus, the mysterious Raiden was born.

 

Yeah, because you couldn't create a tutorial mode, nope. The real reason: Kojima would be unable to use his usual storytelling method to spout his convulated world view and continue to utilize his pompous gaming vision.

 

All of the characters in Metal Gear are created by Kojima in collaboration with Shinkawa. In early 1999, Kojima first told Shinkawa of his idea for a new protagonist in the story. "Mr. Kojima comes up to me and says, 'Can you draw this type of character?'" says Shinkawa, who admits he is often somewhat rebellious in his character design. Shinkawa says his rebelliousness is by design. "What fun would it be if I drew exactly what Mr. Kojima told me to do? What I try to do is realize my ideas along with his in the final design. That way the final character will inspire Mr. Kojima to take the series in a new direction."

 

Rebellious? Compared to what? Certainly not compared to most of the contemporary RPG game character designs.

 

"I really love the movie Terminator 2," he explains. "That movie was so great because you never knew that Arnold Schwarzenegger was the good cyborg when the movie started. When he appears at the beginning you assume he is bad like the first movie. But then it turns out he is good. I remember being so surprised by that turn of events." Taking his inspiration from that film, Kojima devised a plot device that would let him shock players in much the same way with Raiden's introduction. "When they reached the Plant chapter of the game I wanted them to wonder what was going on. And then they will meet this interesting character named Pliskin who looks and sounds like Snake. But is he Snake?"

 

You see, because he could extend on his flagrant abuse of cloning in the storyline to have players wondering just what the hell was going on when he began the first series of pointless plot twists. Bah, who needs good writing when you can just confuse?

 

Some members of the team expressed concern that players would want to play Solid Snake throughout the entire sequel, but Kojima says he was determined to bring a secret new character to the game. "Was I scared that people might not be happy about the new character? Not really," he says. "In a sequel you have to meet people's expectations, but you also sort of have to go against them and deceive them I think. This is my Metal Gear, and I can destroy it if I want to."

 

- The Final Hours of Metal Gear Solid 2.

 

Congratulations, you succeeded, Kojima. So, basically, Kojima admits he's a pompous ass, a liar, and thought people might think the character sucked, but did it anyway because of his own stubbornness.

[AndrewTS 0]

I actually have Xenosaga, but I haven't gotten into it yet (due to the fact that I really don't have a lot of time to play lately) and it hasn't reeled me in yet from the very beginning. But then again, I'm not that far yet, so I'll have to keep going.

 

From the very beginning, I do notice that there are a lot of long scenes, but again, I read books and watch movies too!. There are tons of "long scenes" and stuff in them, and if you add some great gameplay and interactivity to a strong story, I have no problem with that. It's called having an attention span.

It's not just that they're long scenes. It's that unlike Xenogears, the long scenes don't go anywhere. At all. They just drag on forever. The first 5 hours could've been put into 40 minutes and you wouldn't lose anything. Just a bunch of annoying techno babble that makes you want to stab your eyes out. If it was a movie, I would've walked out after the first hour.

Tyler Straw Man: You have a short attention span! It isn't the game makers' fault! It's your's! It's your stupid mind! Stupid, stupid!!

[Anya 0]

Are you going to explain your proof or where you're getting Kojima's "real reasons" from or what? Seems like you're trying to pass speculation off as the truth.

[AndrewTS 0]

Are you going to explain your proof or where you're getting Kojima's "real reasons" from or what? Seems like you're trying to pass speculation off as the truth.

Not at all, it's my speculation. Whether you want to accept it as truth or not is up to you. My speculation is as good as Kojima's word, at least. Also, neither Kojima's useless word, that article, or the game itself really seems to indicate your "one game character" statement. Nothing there said he definately wouldn't be meant to take over for Snake. What reason is there for him to be a "rookie" anyway? Oh yeah, I vaguely remember it being buried somewhere in one of those stupid codec plot twists, something about him being a puppet, blah blah, just some after-the-fact justification.

 

However, explain to me why Kojima, apparently so intent on "shaking up" the game by doing new things, changes the character because otherwise he wouldn't be able to rely on the same exposition tool he used in the previous game? He even reused many of the MGS1 plot elements, too.

[Anya 0]

My speculation is as good as Kojima's word, at least.

 

 

 

Also, neither Kojima's useless word, that article, or the game itself really seems to indicate your "one game character" statement.

 

 

I didn't quote the entire article. It's in another chapter.

 

 

However, explain to me why Kojima, apparently so intent on "shaking up" the game by doing new things, changes the character because otherwise he wouldn't be able to rely on the same exposition tool he used in the previous game?

 

 

What? He said why Raiden changes the way the story is told in the part I quoted.

 

 

He even reused many of the MGS1 plot elements, too.

 

 

Yeah...and the whole "recreation of MGS1" thing wouldn't have worked the way it did without a new character in the lead instead of Snake.

[AndrewTS 0]

My speculation is as good as Kojima's word, at least.

 

Hey, have I blatantly and deliberately lied about something like he did?

 

Also, neither Kojima's useless word, that article, or the game itself really seems to indicate your "one game character" statement.

 

 

I didn't quote the entire article. It's in another chapter.

 

Suuuure...it's easy to say that after the fact, but a lot in the game seems to indicate they at least left the door open for that possibility.

 

Then again, maybe I'm wrong and thought it would be soooo funny to thrust players into the boots of that douchebag, and didn't have any future plans. Lord knows that Snake Eater isn't really the result of any "future plans." Oh yeah, it's a new creative direction, or something.

 

However, explain to me why Kojima, apparently so intent on "shaking up" the game by doing new things, changes the character because otherwise he wouldn't be able to rely on the same exposition tool he used in the previous game?

 

What? He said why Raiden changes the way the story is told in the part I quoted.

 

Same exposition tool = Codec.

 

He even reused many of the MGS1 plot elements, too.

 

Yeah...and the whole "recreation of MGS1" thing wouldn't have worked the way it did without a new character in the lead instead of Snake.

 

Ah yes, that was buried within the Codec exposition as well. Sadly, all it did was make me think "I wish I was playing that game instead."

[Anya 0]

Hey, have I blatantly and deliberately lied about something like he did?

 

 

 

Maybe if the topic was MGS3's story you'd have a point but Kojima being a liar and a dishonost person because he hide a plot twist in a game is weaksauce.

 

I'm going to have to go with taking Hideo's word over a guy who hates MGS2 speculating on what someone else was thinking. Especially one who admitted they weren't fair to games they don't like just a couple days ago.

 

 

 

Same exposition tool = Codec.

 

 

Maybe he likes the Codec and wanted to bring it back?

[AndrewTS 0]

Maybe if the topic was MGS3's story you'd have a point but Kojima being a liar and a dishonost person because he hide a plot twist in a game is weaksauce.

In regards to Snake Eater, he's being up front about the ambiguity. Also, it's far more than a "plot twist," it was an total lie. He could have been ambiguous about it leading up to the release, or just released screen shots never actually revealing Snake, or something to that effect. Didn't do it. Sorry, I don't find it clever or amusing, and if the character he replaced it with didn't suck so much, I wouldn't care.

 

I'm going to have to go with taking Hideo's word over a guy who hates MGS2 speculating on what someone else was thinking. Especially one who admitted they weren't fair to games they don't like just a couple days ago.

 

Hey, suit yourself.

 

AndrewTS: stubborn, bull-headed, venom-spewing hater of "interactive" electronic entertainment. Hmm--anyone got a more concise, catchy title for that?

 

Maybe he likes the Codec and wanted to bring it back?

 

Yeah, without it we might have to rely on gameplay. Can't have that, after all.

[Anya 0]

if the character he replaced it with didn't suck so much, I wouldn't care.

 

 

I would have never guessed.