Austin/hart, mania 13

[Guest chirs3]

I was quite underwhelmed. I've heard great things about this match, but it didn't seem very good to me.

 

Bret didn't sell the Boston Crab at all. And when he grabbed the ropes, Shamrock made Austin break despite it being No-DQ.

 

Most, if not all, punches looked incredibly weak, and the four minutes in the crowd was pretty pointless.

 

Austin did a decent job of selling the injury off and on. Limping one minute, not the next.

 

I didn't get to see the hype leading up to the match, so maybe it was better at the time. Just as a standalone, all but the last few minutes was pretty weak.

 

What'd you guys think?

[Guest]

I personally love the match.  It's one of three WWF matches in 1997 I gave ***** to, the others being the 10-Man Canadian Stampede and Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker at Badd Blood.  

 

It had so much.  The PPV debut of Ken Shamrock as referee, Bret relentlessly working over Austin's bad knee (including the first appearance of the ringpost-assisted Figure Four leglock), a horrible (in a good way) bladejob from Austin, the famous images of a bloody Austin refusing to quit while in the Sharpshooter, then the double-tun as fan-support grows and grows for the gutsy Austin while a chorus of boos reign down on the Hitman for refusing to release the hold.  A complete turn-around that led to Austin becoming the no.1 face in the business.  I believe it was one of the WWF's finest ever moments.  A shame it was the lone highlight of a truly awful pay-per-view in WrestleMania 13.

[Guest Some Guy]

Chris, watching a match that has been univerally touted as *****, you're bound to be disappointed.  Watch it again, it really is great.  I thought Austin sold the knee pretty well, considering he really was injured, that was his first PPV with the knee brace after hyper-extending it at Final Four.  The historic value as DH mentioned is also tremendous.

[Guest chirs3]

I thought the last five minutes or so were absolute gold. Austin's passing out instead of giving up was a genius move.

 

I just didn't find the rest of the match much fun - Shamrock didn't do anything special except break the rules by enforcing them.

 

And that was a brutal blade job.

[Guest Crasper]

The finish was very unique at the time.  It's been done several times since, though.  It was the type of thing where no-one thought Austin would submit, so how the hell could he get out of it.  Awesome finish.  The whole double turn was- although somewhat telegraphed- still excellent in it's execution.  Definetly in my top five matches of all time.

[Guest Caliban]

The rest of the match was supposed to be a big brawl. The psychology was that Austin was going to beat Bret Hart into submission. The crowd heat was way up for the match, which helped. There hadn't been anything like it in the WWF at the time. It pretty much set the blueprint for the WWF's in-ring style over the next few years. Awesome, awesome match.

[Guest barnacles]

Gotta agree with the other guys, truly superb match. One of my favourites-it was so monumental. The build-up was excellent and is an example of some of the best booking around. It had it all, character development(the double turn, the introduction of Ken Shamrock), psychology, new moves(ringpost figure 4), great crowd heat, and one of the greatest finishes to a match of all time.

 

Seeing star ratings before a seeing the match tends to set it up too much in my opinion. Try watching the match from your own perspective, not someone elses, you could end up enjoying it a lot more.

[Guest red_file]

I guess it's really all about what you expect from an allegedly great match.  You look at the particpants, see that both of them have the skills (or had at that time) to put on an exhibition, and assume that there's going to be some brilliant matwork involved.  That it was basically a brawl seems to run counter to the idea that the participants were giving it their all.

 

I tend to think of that match as simply a good match; it didn't wow me really with any of the in-ring action and had it not been for the historic value, few people would speak so fondly of it.  As said, it set the template for what would bcome the wwf style.  I wonder if that deserves praise or not.

[Guest wolverine]

I liked it a lot when it happened, but it was pretty obvious that Bret was washed up at that point.  Austin was great, no doubt.  But I agree that the brawling in the crowd was a waste of time, and Bret's punches looked especially weak (now that I've seen my fair share of Japanese wrestling, I'm used to actual strikes, as opposed to whiffs).

 

Anyways, it's a great match for sure though, even though I don't think it's *****.  I like Bret-Owen from WM 10 a lot more, because that wrestling is my cup of tea.

[Guest Jericholic82]

Dude, if you had watched it liveyoud know why we love it.  It makes wm 13 worth getting.  also the street fight six man is pretty good too (for 97)

[Guest FakeRazor]

Gah, I hated that 6 man street fight.  Wrestlemania 13 is pretty crappy, save for Austin vs Hart.  Awesome match by my standards, probably about ****1/2 to even *****.  Even puro nuts like this match.

[Guest areacode212]

This is my absolute favorite WWF match ever. I even loved the brawling in the crowd. It wasn't something that you saw very often at the time (outside of ECW). The crowd went apeshit for *everything*, and...just everything was great.

 

But you definitely needed to see all the hype leading up to it, in order to fully appreciate it: Hart's return, the SS 96 match, etc. They absolutely HATED each other, and that heat comes across really well in the match. Incidentally, Austin vs. Hart is also my all-time favorite WWF feud. Nothing else since has had that kind of heat between wrestlers, IMO.

[Guest dreamer420]

austin and hart had such great chemistry in the ring and that is why their matches are nothing short of spectacular.  i prefer the wrestlemania match to the survivor series one although they are both around *****

[Guest]

I love the match as well... but it does bother me when I see Austin selling the knee injury for all of 20 seconds or so before forgetting about it for a while before selling it again. I don't think that takes away from the match too much... it's just a pet peave of mine. If I critisize Bret in the Iron Man Match for no selling Michael's offense on his arm, than I can't in my right mind not critisize Austin... even if the circumstances were completely different.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I consider it to be the best WWF match I've ever seen.

 

Watching Austin keep making comebacks with his face covered in blood...just gold.

 

The ending...the double turn...all of it.

 

On top of the fact that the match was great...it also changed the coarse of the wwf.

[Guest Drury37]

I always thought that Steve Austin Vs. Bret Hart from WWF WrestleMania 13 was a really good match.It was really the first time they fought into the crowd and different stuff and it really did change the WWF.That was the platform for the next 5 years.

Thanks.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

The match is deemed a classic not so much for the actual in ring work, but for the story telling involved.  That tends to confuse people who have perceptions of ***** matches being these spectacular displays of flawless in ring work.  

 

On the old scale of match ratings, being determined soley on inring work the match is more like a *** or less.  But the psychology/story telling is  *****. Its also is a historically important match, which is why it tends to get the perfect score.  

 

Personally I'd give it around ****1/2 or3/4, but in a what the hell mood I'll give it *****.

[Guest converge241]

I'm surprised that the match is not loved. In the eye of the beholder i guess. I loved this match and think it holds up as one of the greats. I used to play this in the comic book store I ran back then and the repeated airings of this match singlehandedly got like 25 people into/back into wrestling.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Coffin your sig is misleading! Gedo got lucky! Benoit kicked the sh*t out of him in that match!

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Gedo didn't get lucky.  It was all clever ruse starting with Gedo letting Benoit defeat him at JCUP 94, he did it to lure Benoit into a false of sense of security, only to humilate him by defeating him with his own move a year later. Gedo than let Lyger beat him in the next match, only to make himself look weaker.  Adding to Benoit's embaressment, forcing him to leave Japan in shame and wrestle Taz in ECW.

[Guest imajackoff?]

I remember the set up piece telling the backstory of the Hart-Austin fued before this match was EXCELLENT.  The match itself also ruled.  Austin just had that "IT" look to him at that time.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Hart vs. Austin Wm 13 is an anti-traditional match.

 

At the beginning of their Feud, the story was Traditionalist in Hart vs Anarchist in Austin.  However, it changed.  The fans changed.  Bret Hart Changed.  He soon became what he hated most, from cursing in the ring, to knocking down announcers, Bret Hart became anti-trandition.

 

So the match featured Anti-tradition vs. Anti-tradition.  So do you think you are going to get a traditional match with traditional storytelling and traditional selling?

 

The match was Anti-Traditional.

The finish wasn't traditional (An I Quit match won when the man never said 'I Quit'?)

The referee wasn't Traditional.

The Brawl around the ring wasn't traditional.

The ending with Bret being booed and Austin being cheered wasn't traditional.

[Guest Andy]

I watched this match for the first time since '97 recently, and felt it was missing that certain spark it had the first time round.

 

Still very enjoyable, but I wouldn't go over **** now.

 

Andy

[Guest RickyChosyu]

My only real complaint with Austin/Hart from WM XII was this: Austin didn't go for the Million Dollar Dream like he did in their first encounter at Survivor Series '96. The rope-walk spot was the finish to the first match, and they didn't even throw a nod to it in the re-match. I just don't get that. The only reason Austin lost the first match is because Bret outsmarted him by walking the ropes, and yet, in match where pin falls didn't count, he didn't try the hold again. This would have been perfect psychology as it would show how Bret would have to find a new way to counter the hold or be forced into submision. Ah well, hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

 

As for the match itself, I thought it was amazing. Despite my one main gripe with it, Bret and Austin changed the wrestling business that night and influenced the way it is today. They managed to turn each other from face to heel, and from heel to face through one match alone. From a storytelling standpoit, the match is a true classic. However, if you're going for stand-alone enjoyment only, I think the Survivor Series '96 match is better. For pure workrate alone, it's one of the best I've ever seen.

[Guest Some Guy]

It was an I quit match the Cobra Clutch isn't a submission move and the roll up would be pointless because there were no pinfalls.  I understand where you're coming from but I don't think Bret and Austin wouldn't have thought about that spot and decided it didn't make sense.  Especially Austin considering he has worked that spot into a few other matches, Mania 17 and SummerSlam 2001.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It was an I quit match the Cobra Clutch isn't a submission move and the roll up would be pointless because there were no pinfalls.  I understand where you're coming from but I don't think Bret and Austin wouldn't have thought about that spot and decided it didn't make sense.  Especially Austin considering he has worked that spot into a few other matches, Mania 17 and SummerSlam 2001.

Since when isn't the Cobra Clutch a submision move? It may not have allowed Bret to say I quit, but it would certainly wear him down and leave him defenseless, especially because Bret couldn't find a way to actually escape the hold in their first match, resorting to rolling up Austin while still stuck in the Clutch. I'm aware a roll-up would be pointless in a match without pinfalls, and that's why Austin should have used the hold again, because then Hart would have been forced to actually find a way to escape it. It shows how Hart must create a new way to counter the hold and strategize according to the "I Quit" rules.

 

I'm sure they thought about it, but decided it would be a bad idea since the Cobra Clutch is associated with Austin's Ringmaster character and they were attempting to turn him babyface. They were probably afraid people would associate him with the old gimick and turn on him, though I doubt that would have been an issue, since he was already more over than Bret going into the match and it was obvious everyone was ready to get behind him no matter what he did. But, like I said, hindsight is 20/20, so whatever, it was still a great match.

[Guest HartFan86]

IMO, Austin/Hart from Survivor Series 96 was better than the "I Quit" from WM 13. Just because it was more  of an awesome technical match then a brawl. That's just my opinion.

[Guest papacita]

I missed the original Survivor Series match and couldn't wait to see Bret and Austin at WM. The heat between those two was crazy. I don't know if I'd go as far as to call it the best match I've ever seen, but it was damn sure one of my all-time favorite feuds.

[Guest]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but why didn't Shamrock do the "raise the hand three times" thing on Austin before calling for the bell? I know that's not how it is done in the UFC, but they weren't doing a UFC-style match to begin with.

[Guest DEEP THOUGHT]

It was an I quit match, meaning that the loser had to say "I Quit", not have their hand dropped three times. Shamrock asked Austin if he wanted to quit in the sharpshooter, and he didn't respond, so Ken stopped the match.

 

As for the cobra clutch-scale-the-ropes-to-counter debate I think it was good that they didn't repeat the spot in their WM 13 match. It would have been totally out of character for Bret to see him make a mistake like that.