Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted July 12, 2004 I picked Rolen simply because he's been the best in the NL the first half of the season. He leads the majors in RBIs, has hit well for average and power; draws walks; doesn't strike out too often. He's amazing with the glove, something that Barry Bonds no longer is. Plus, his team has a hefty lead in the most competitive division in baseball; something I don't think they could accomplish without his glove and bat. Not to mention Rolen has carried the Cardinals offense at points when Pujols was on the DL, Edmonds was on the DL, and Renteria just plain having an off year. Bonds walks, homers or makes an out and does nothing more really. I was disgusted watching him in the series Boston had with San Fran. He dropped 2 balls and then jogged about the OF the rest of the way. It also looks like he refuses to dive for a baseball anymore as well. I'm of the opinion that all he cares about is hitting and is becoming Jose Canseco without the injuries. He'd be in heaven if San Fran were an AL team. Sure, he wants a World Series ring...just as long as he doesn't have to be the one busting his ass to get it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Bonds walks, homers or makes an out and does nothing more really. When does he make an out? He's had 325 plate appearances, and made 124 outs. That includes the little things like sacrifices, caught stealing, and double plays. He's reached base in 63% of his plate appearances. That's over 45 points over the RECORD. The idea of the game is to create runs, and not create outs. Bonds is sucessful at the plate 15% more often than any other player in the game. There's no way in hell Rolen plays defense so well that he offsets that difference at the plate. And if Rolen wins the MVP because of the outdated notion of RBIs, I'm going to throw up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goatfish Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Bruiser I agree with your point about Takatsu possibly getting adjusted too. But I don't believe that will happen because 1. Takatsu's a closer, and Willis was a starter. Teams are more apt to hit a tired starter in the later innings of a game then a closer for one, and that 2. Takatsu's been over in Japan (I think that's where he came over from, I could be wrong) and has pitched through full seasons over there as a closer. He knows how to go through a full season whereas Willis had only been through the minor leagues. In the end, I think Crosby and Mauer (whom I only didn't rank due to injury) will overtake him, but I think his contributions to Chicago's bullpen can't be ignored. And Alkieper, first off let me say you write some of the best baseball columns i've seen. I just think Bonds won't get the MVP purely because the writers don't want to keep giving it to the same guy each year, no matter how much his numbers deserve it. Yeah, it sucks, but it's probably what's going to happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Bonds walks, homers or makes an out and does nothing more really. When does he make an out? He's had 325 plate appearances, and made 124 outs. That includes the little things like sacrifices, caught stealing, and double plays. He's reached base in 63% of his plate appearances. That's over 45 points over the RECORD. The idea of the game is to create runs, and not create outs. Bonds is sucessful at the plate 15% more often than any other player in the game. There's no way in hell Rolen plays defense so well that he offsets that difference at the plate. And if Rolen wins the MVP because of the outdated notion of RBIs, I'm going to throw up. Bonds is a whopping 3 for 3 in SB. In this case I think Runs Scored + RBI - homeruns(since they'll count twice if we don't) are a good measure of where to start. Bonds = 96 Rolen = 118 Now Rolen already leads thus far and if you go into how many runs each save or cost their team I'm sure Rolen comes out in front. How do I know this? Well for starters I watched Bonds cost his team 5 runs in one game against the Red Sox. In that game he went 0-3 with a walk. So he was minus 5 points. Rolen is a 5 tool player. Today Bonds is lucky if he's a 3 tool player. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Rolen is actually only 7th in the N.L. in runs created. Bonds leads the N.L. by almost 15 more runs created over 2nd place Todd Helton. I can't stand Bonds but sorry it's simply no contest, he's the MVP. And Rolen is a five tool player? A guy with 90 career steals is a five tool player? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Smell the ratings!!! Report post Posted July 12, 2004 to be fair, I will agree that Rolen is awesome on defense, probably 1A with Chavez. but I stand by my hash reference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Rolen has speed, but why would he be running when he has Edmonds and others behind him? He'd probably be cot 35% of the time if he did nothing but steal...still he's not slow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 In this case I think Runs Scored + RBI - homeruns(since they'll count twice if we don't) are a good measure of where to start. Bonds = 96 Rolen = 118 What the hell are you smoking? That might have carried weight twenty or thirty years ago. We've advanced past that stage. You know as well as I know that RBIs and runs scored to not account for everything a player does. Now Rolen already leads thus far and if you go into how many runs each save or cost their team I'm sure Rolen comes out in front. How do I know this? Well for starters I watched Bonds cost his team 5 runs in one game against the Red Sox. In that game he went 0-3 with a walk. So he was minus 5 points. WHAT?! That is, by far, the stupidest, utterly incomprehensible, justification for denying a player an MVP award. Bonds has reached base 62.8% of the time. Rolen has reached 41.5% of the time. Bonds has, by my previous statistics, made 124 outs. Rolen has made 214 outs. Rolen has made 90 more outs than Bonds. Now let us look at runs created. Bonds has created 97.2 runs, and Rolen has created 72.1 runs. So Bonds has created 25 more runs, and made 90 less outs. That is before we start on defense. Rolen is a very good defensive player. It's entirely possible to estimate he's made 30-40 more plays than the average fielder. That cuts the outs total down to 50-60. That is a LOT of outs. I just don't see how you can say Rolen > Bonds without suffering from some kind of nerve disease. Rolen is a 5 tool player. Today Bonds is lucky if he's a 3 tool player. The point of baseball isn't to be a five tool player. Its to create runs. If you want to give an award to Rolen, make an award for those who have five tools, and call it the Willie Mays award. If that sounds stupid, then maybe you'll remember what I had to deal with during the "A-Rod for MVP" debate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Woohoo, he gets on base...AND THEN SITS AT FIRST. They don't take Rolen's bat out of the line-up with 4 intentional balls everytime. I'd much rather have Scott Rolen on my team than Barry Bonds because Rolen can make a difference. We're going to keep butting heads(which is cool because I like good debate) but in the end I will show you how Rolen is the better all around player and why he's been more valuable to the Cards this season than Bonds has been to the Giants. They have an award for Barry, its called The Silver Slugger. We're going to crunch stats later on AIM *shakes fist* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Man in Blak 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Comeback player of the year: Ken Griffey Jr. If I were to pick a Comeback player, it would have to be Ray Lankford. Here's a guy who was absolutely considered DONE. He didn't play organized ball at any level last season. This year, he's hitting 266/365/435, and building his case as one of St. Louis's all time greats. Kweh? Lankford's been splitting time in LF all year with other "All Time Greats" like So Taguchi, Colin Porter, and Marlon Anderson. I know the career OBP is good and he is a member of the 200/200 club, but are you seriously considering him one of St. Louis' best ever? With Brock, Gibby, Stan the Man, and the Wizard? Hell, Lankford's not even the best comeback player candidate on his own team, with Chris Carpenter coming back and having an absolute career year after sitting out a year due to arm surgery. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Woohoo, he gets on base...AND THEN SITS AT FIRST. They don't take Rolen's bat out of the line-up with 4 intentional balls everytime. I'd much rather have Scott Rolen on my team than Barry Bonds because Rolen can make a difference. Then we're back to awarding MVPs based on who has better teammates. That's no reason to award an award. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Man in Blak 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 We're going to keep butting heads(which is cool because I like good debate) but in the end I will show you how Rolen is the better all around player and why he's been more valuable to the Cards this season than Bonds has been to the Giants. Picture the San Francisco offense without Barry Bonds and remember that, past Jason Schmidt, they have lifesized cardboard cutouts on the mound. These guys are 9 games over .500 with no pitching and the best power hitter behind bonds is MARQUIS GRISSOM. I'd love to be a homer and throw Rolen's name into the MVP mix, but it's got to go to Bonds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Kweh? Lankford's been splitting time in LF all year with other "All Time Greats" like So Taguchi, Colin Porter, and Marlon Anderson. I know the career OBP is good and he is a member of the 200/200 club, but are you seriously considering him one of St. Louis' best ever? With Brock, Gibby, Stan the Man, and the Wizard? Absolutely. Only Ken Boyer and Musial have hit more home runs for the Cardinals. He's got a case for being the franchise center fielder (its him or Flood, I don't think Edmonds has played long enough). He's not among the truly elite, but he would be on their all time roster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Man in Blak 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 That's almost damning with faint praise, considering his competition. Plus, I imagine that they'd probably have 1985 NL MVP Willie McGee on the all-time Cardinals team in Center, despite the fact that Lankford has better stats. But that's neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is that his current production, OBP notwithstanding, isn't anywhere near his prior levels. He's filled the "scrappy veteran" role to a T in St. Louis, but he's got to actually be good to warrant consideration for the Comeback award. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gert T 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 How close do you guys think Ivan Rodriguez will get to the AL MVP. Top 5? Top3? If he wins the batting title and hits about 25 HR's and 100 RBI's that is a formidable season. Then add in the fact the Tigers will probably finish around 70-75 wins should that factor in as well versus their 43 last year. This is what I do not like about MVP voting, the voter can't ever seem to make up their mind on what the criteria is. Oh well makes for good debate I guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruiser Chong 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 In Bonds' defense, he's not scoring as many runs because once he gets on base, there's no one behind him to drive him home on a consistent basis. Rolen usually has the likes of Edmonds and the surprising Reggie Sanders backing him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Man in Blak 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 How close do you guys think Ivan Rodriguez will get to the AL MVP. Top 5? Top3? I'd say he'd get Top 3, but he'd still be a LOOOOOONG way away from the two-horse race of Manny Ramirez and Vladimir Guerrero. My picks: AL MVP: Manny Ramirez, Bos NL MVP: Barry Bonds, SF AL Cy Young: Curt Schilling, Bos NL Cy Young: Jason Schmidt, SF (though Sheets is probably more deserving) AL Rookie of the Year: Joe Mauer, Min NL Rookie of the Year: Jason Bay, Pit AL Manager: Buck Showalter, Tex NL Manager: Bobby Cox, Atl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Man in Blak 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Yeah, first double post EVAR. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 From Jayson Stark's column..... Yeah, Rolen plays in a lineup that churns out a never-ending series of RBI opportunities. But he's also hitting .420 with runners in scoring position. So sorry, Barry. It's been Rolen's half-season. Scoring Position..... Rolen 416/486/843 Bonds 371/775/800 Take away the intentional walks, and Bonds' OBP is .542. Seriously, .775?! While we're working with situational stats, here's a good one. Close and Late situations...... Close And Late - results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck. Rolen 182/288/364 Bonds 379/700/966 Sorry Jayson, you're going to have to find some other way to screw Barry this season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted July 12, 2004 Yeah, first double post EVAR. Post Whore Take away the intentional walks, and Bonds' OBP is .542. Seriously, .775?! There's also the unintentional intentional walks. You know...give him something to swing at but nothing in the strike zone. I don't think Barry hits anything unless he thinks he can hit it for a homer and I don't agree with that. Slapping the ball to the opposite field down the line than swinging for the fences and hitting a deep fly out is alot better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 There's also the unintentional intentional walks. You know...give him something to swing at but nothing in the strike zone. I don't think Barry hits anything unless he thinks he can hit it for a homer and I don't agree with that. Slapping the ball to the opposite field down the line than swinging for the fences and hitting a deep fly out is alot better. So a batter becomes better when he hits less home runs, walks less, and collects more singles? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 12, 2004 AL MVP: Manny Rameriez NL MVP: Barry Bonds AL Cy Young: Schilling NL Cy Young: Sheets AL Rookie of the Year: Crosby NL Rookie of the Year: Bay AL Manager: Showalter NL Manager: Miley (homer) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted July 12, 2004 I didn't say singles. Barry could sacrafice his "wait for a home run or take a walk" philosophy though and slap a ball down the line from time to time for a double.If he does hit a single I'd much rather have runners at 1st and 3rd then a guy just draw a walk all the time and have runners at first and second. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2004 I didn't say singles. Barry could sacrafice his "wait for a home run or take a walk" philosophy though and slap a ball down the line from time to time for a double.If he does hit a single I'd much rather have runners at 1st and 3rd then a guy just draw a walk all the time and have runners at first and second. Bonds is hitting 400/730/843 with runners on. How exactly does this new approach improve his team? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted July 13, 2004 Average is misconstrued though as he doesn't have as many official ABs. Barry is their RBI man, he should be puting the ball into play more. I like walks and a high OBP just as much as the next guy but with Barry he needs to learn to take more of a Manny approach to hitting. Manny grabs walks as well but if there's something he can slice the other way for a double he does so. It really does look like Bonds is just trying to pump his OBP and home run records because he doesn't spray it all over the place. When we're both feeling up to it and have the time to do so we should combine our noggins to try and find a system that represents the true value of a player. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Smell the ratings!!! Report post Posted July 13, 2004 this reminds me of one of my all time favorite baseball lines Dusty Baker: "I don't like walks. They clog up the basepaths." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted July 14, 2004 When we're both feeling up to it and have the time to do so we should combine our noggins to try and find a system that represents the true value of a player. Bill James' Win Shares Baseball Prospectus' Value Over Replacement Player Those are the two best player evaluation stats I've seen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted July 14, 2004 AL MVP: Vladimir Guerrero, Angels Cy: Mark Mulder, A's ROY: Bobby Crosby, A's MOY: Buck Showalter, Rangers NL MVP: Barry Bonds, Giants Cy: Jason Schmidt, Giants ROY: Jason Bay, Pirates MOY: Bobby Cox, Braves Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted July 17, 2004 Another candidate for comeback player of the year: Jermaine Dye. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GreatOne Report post Posted July 17, 2004 Woohoo! Former Zag Jason Bay gets some love! Gonzaga: Not just a basketball school............... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
