So lemme get this straight

[jester 0]

he's the bad guy. He's not going to admit that Benoit is better than him or that he's a real threat.

He doesn't have to say it. He just has to show it.

 

All he has to do is drop being smug for three seconds when the name "Benoit" is mentioned, and act worried.

[Guest GreatOne]

OK to the "HHH is taking up too much time" crowd, who else do you put Benoit in a program with without turning him/somebody else heel?

 

Kane: Seen it, and especially not now.

 

Orton: Not only a hell no, but the minute that happens we'll have about 75775 threads about how Orton shouldn't be there--I agree with that but not for that reason.

 

Michaels maybe: But the marks still wanna cheer him for some reason--thus his "ghost face turn" in July '02.

 

Jericho: I had a chance to take a break from the net crowd for a while during his title run and how many people I watched RAW with looked at him as a total weasel that should be nowhere near the world title, this from marks mind you. They bought/buy Angle, Eddy, and Benoit as world champs no problem so it's not a case of "well they just like Austin/Rock/HHH"

 

Edge: Do the superface showdown but not either as heels.

 

Benoit himself: Well the three times he's been heel he's been Trips' lapdog twice and was odd man out when Austin left. So I doubt this is the way to go.

 

And for the last time could the "give props in your promos" crowd give it a rest? Does anyone realize how gay it sounds? Wasn't there a thread on here just three months ago suggesting Orton suck up to Foley like that? Hell the Nitro after Fall Brawl 99 Benoit did that with Sid, "I could have sworn I made you tap, but you're the man"--Chris please SHUT THE HELL........UP. Hell take any Rock promo from 99-early 00 (at his best coincidentally), I doubt you'll hear "Oh you're a great contender, the Rock is gonna have to pull out all the stops to beat you". Conversely, one makes the Foley argument, and it's not a coincidence that he has the "crazy guy who always loses" tag.

[Guest Loss]

He isn't Ric Flair and he never will be. Just because he emulates some attributes of Flair doesn't mean that he will or should emulate them all.

He looks to him as a role model. He's said as much. So he'll never be "the new Flair", which is obviously what he's *trying* to do, if he doesn't take a good look at the way Flair made his opponents look. HHH losing matches means nothing, because HHH is still more important. I don't even think Benoit should be pushed as HHH's superior at this point, based on HHH's five-year dominance and Benoit's only-recent ascension, but they should definitely be presented as equals. Benoit never even did a promo to hype Vengeance. This is about HHH's quest to get the belt back, which it should be, but it should also be about Benoit's quest to finally toss HHH aside once and for all and move on to new challenges.

[Guest Loss]

Jericho: I had a chance to take a break from the net crowd for a while during his title run and how many people I watched RAW with looked at him as a total weasel that should be nowhere near the world title, this from marks mind you. They bought/buy Angle, Eddy, and Benoit as world champs no problem so it's not a case of "well they just like Austin/Rock/HHH"

Jericho's character once he got the title was nothing like the one that got him over and to that level before that. He totally changed roles and got no reaction because he was a midcarder with almost no television time. Jericho holding the title as a face and being pushed as the top guy would still work, even to this day. He consistently gets the loudest ovations of anyone on RAW.

[Brett Favre 0]

Orton: Not only a hell no, but the minute that happens we'll have about 75775 threads about how Orton shouldn't be there--I agree with that but not for that reason.

I'd like to see Benoit/Orton at Summerslam.

[Guest GreatOne]

I would have agreed but Orton (and Batista) is back on my shitlist after that Edge/Jericho fiasco a few weeks back. Plus it's not like the crowd's ready to see Orton (ce for a few drunks and teenage girls in the first row) move to the next level like Rock in 98 after losing the IC title.

 

Hey wait a min, maybe he can job to the returning Mark Henry. That'd be funnier than hell

[AndrewTS 0]

HHH wins, smarks get upset, and the anti-smark trolls come out out of the woodwork. *yawn*

 

On the one hand, it's too soon to call this a "burial" because Benoit probably still will be in the title feuds.

 

However, WWE *has* been continually treating HHH as *the* star, and haven't had a clue how to properly book Benoit as champion. Plus the Kane and HHH feuds have had horrible buildup and failed to get anyone to care.

 

HHH holding the title again makes me apathetic, because I honestly forget he ever lost it.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Tell me why I had to be a Powerslave

I don't wanna die, I'm a God, why can't I live on?

When the Life-Giver dies, all around is laid waste

And in my last hour I'm a slave to the power of Death

 

I think that sums it up.

[AndrewTS 0]

*marks for Iron Maiden*

[Guest GreatOne]

HHH wins, smarks get upset, and the anti-smark trolls come out out of the woodwork.  *yawn*

I didn't know HHH won last night.

 

How has HHH been "the star" here? Maybe during HIAC, which lasted all of about three weeks.

 

Wanna blame somebody, blame WWE for killing every heel EXCEPT HHH, and giving us Gang Green which are totally not ready to be in the main event, not how they're booking Benoit.

 

Think of it this way, Benoit=DDP, HHH=Raven, Michaels=Benoit

 

Hell Michaels gets to come back and beat up Kane, which would be impressive if he'd actually gotten a non-tag win on PPV in like three years.

 

Anti-smark troll? Go to hell.

[jester 0]

And for the last time could the "give props in your promos" crowd give it a rest? Does anyone realize how gay it sounds? Wasn't there a thread on here just three months ago suggesting Orton suck up to Foley like that? Hell the Nitro after Fall Brawl 99 Benoit did that with Sid, "I could have sworn I made you tap, but you're the man"

Ok, here's another example. One last ditch effort.

 

All of the heels that have been facing Undertaker practically shit themselves whenever he appears. He's really the flipside extreme of what we're talking about, and yes, sometimes it goes to far--Hell, sometimes heels become terrified just when they hear UT's MUSIC.

 

UT's opponents make him seem extra credible, not because they talk about how great he is, but because they ACT afraid of him. They say they're not, but when they do, the ACT unconvincing.

 

Now tell me you honestly don't see a difference between that and heel HHH's utter dismissal of anyone who gets the better of him? HHH barely looked miffed when Goldberg had the belt.

 

Heels DO give props to their opponents. They just do them in subtle ways. Looking afraid, hurriedly changing the subject, and making obviously feeble excuses.

 

The heel doesn't have to cut a promo where he says "He beat me, I suck, he's god." He just has to give some indication--physical, emotional, whatever, that tells the crowd yes, the face got to me.

[Guest GreatOne]

And for the last time could the "give props in your promos" crowd give it a rest? Does anyone realize how gay it sounds? Wasn't there a thread on here just three months ago suggesting Orton suck up to Foley like that? Hell the Nitro after Fall Brawl 99 Benoit did that with Sid, "I could have sworn I made you tap, but you're the man"

Ok, here's another example. One last ditch effort.

 

All of the heels that have been facing Undertaker practically shit themselves whenever he appears. He's really the flipside extreme of what we're talking about, and yes, sometimes it goes to far--Hell, sometimes heels become terrified just when they hear UT's MUSIC.

 

UT's opponents make him seem extra credible, not because they talk about how great he is, but because they ACT afraid of him. They say they're not, but when they do, the ACT unconvincing.

 

Now tell me you honestly don't see a difference between that and heel HHH's utter dismissal of anyone who gets the better of him? HHH barely looked miffed when Goldberg had the belt.

 

Heels DO give props to their opponents. They just do them in subtle ways. Looking afraid, hurriedly changing the subject, and making obviously feeble excuses.

 

The heel doesn't have to cut a promo where he says "He beat me, I suck, he's god." He just has to give some indication--physical, emotional, whatever, that tells the crowd yes, the face got to me.

Yes but HHH has gone over everyone on the roster and is the uberheel, so it makes no sense for him to cower.

 

I don't know about you, but Benoit coming down during HHH's promo on RAW after WM and bitchslapping him is good enough for me, the "oh shut the hell up" feel.

 

What's to say that HHH needing to concoct a plan that involves using a retard and relying on his buddies to do his dirty work doesn't do the job anyway?

[Guest Loss]

Thank you, for totally missing the point.

[Guest GreatOne]

Thank you, for totally missing the point.

There WAS one?

 

Oh yeah there was (I guess), I responded to it with "HHH needing a plan that involves a retard to beat Chris Benoit" isn't giving in? Yeah you're right, somebody missed the point here indeed

[Guest Loss]

HHH is not being positioned as someone who is trying everything in his power to put Benoit away and he can't, he's being positioned as someone who was screwed over by Eugene. Benoit is just being presented as a guy lucky to have the belt. It needs to go beyond that.

[Guest Dumb Fuck]

I don't understand why some "smarks" here say "OMG, Taker and HHH will be the champs next month! I'm never watching again!"

 

They've been the true "champions" for a long time now. They're given the appearance of being much stronger than the rest of the roster.

 

I don't understand what WWE is trying to prove with Benoit-HHH, though. What's the point of having Benoit win the title at WM, win at Backlash, and win at Vengeance... when they're always portraying HHH as the dominant wrestler?

 

I would think the point of having prop titles, is so they indicate who the focus of the attention will be for that time. WWE had the notion of killing all belts for a while in 2002, they may as well just killed all of them.

[jester 0]

Yes but HHH has gone over everyone on the roster and is the uberheel, so it makes no sense for him to cower.

 

He doesn't need to cower. In fact, I think the way heels treat UT goes WAY too far in the other direction. There must be a middle ground. How about HHH give us some hint that all is not well in HHHland? That he's feeling the heat, that he's a little worried?

 

I don't know about you, but Benoit coming down during HHH's promo on RAW after WM and bitchslapping him is good enough for me, the "oh shut the hell up" feel.

 

Actually, I agree with this. I'd like to see more of this kind of thing if they feel Benoit's mike skills aren't up for it. Still, letting Benoit getting the last word (being victorious in a verbal exchange, not a physical one), would be a big help.

 

What's to say that HHH needing to concoct a plan that involves using a retard and relying on his buddies to do his dirty work doesn't do the job anyway?

 

It would.... IF it had been presented that HHH was so desperate he'd sink to using Eugene. But that's not how it was presented. It was presented as HHH getting a big kick out of manipulating Eugene. He didn't do it because he was desperately trying to think of anything that would him get the title. He did it because it was good evil fun.

[jester 0]

Ok, this is taken from Dames' review of the Ultimate Ric Flair collection. It perfectly illustrates what Loss and I are talking about:

 

The $25,000 Bounty – Harley Race cuts a short promo, putting out a $25,000 bounty for whomever can “eliminate Ric Flair from wrestling”. This is a great, great promo for several reasons. First off, his growing intensity is excellent, starting off relatively calm and collected, but ending the promo practically begging anyone to collect the bounty with his trademark raspy voice at a fever pitch. “TAKE THE DAMN MONEY!” He puts over several wrestlers in the promotion who he feels are up to the task, including Jack Brisco. “You were World’s Champion! You took the belt from ME! You’re the man, you can do it!” It’s very rare that you see someone put over a competitor in that respect. And last but not least, it makes Ric Flair seem like a viable threat and puts him over big time since Race seems desperate to get rid of him for good.

 

 

Sidenote: If this angle sounds familiar, it should. Triple H, trying to model his career after Flair’s, recently put out a $100,000 bounty on Bill Goldberg on an edition of Raw, although the promo wasn’t nearly as effective. Race showed desperation and despair with his promo, while Triple H’s promo was full of cockiness, failing to put over Goldberg with the promo or anyone else for that matter. Although this is a minor issue, the fact that the money, held in Race’s briefcase, was crumpled up and seemed used gave it more of a realistic feel.

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

What's with all the hate for roll-ups I've been seeing around here lately? I don't see why they're a bad thing.

Roll-ups have always been considered a cheap victory. Whether a heel uses it and grabs the tights while their opponent is distracted, or a jobber faces uses it to upset a big name heel, it's never really a convincing victory.

[iggymcfly 0]

OK, I found a couple things in this thread interesting.

 

HHH wins, smarks get upset, and the anti-smark trolls come out out of the woodwork. *yawn*

On the one hand, it's too soon to call this a "burial" because Benoit probably still will be in the title feuds.

However, WWE *has* been continually treating HHH as *the* star, and haven't had a clue how to properly book Benoit as champion. Plus the Kane and HHH feuds have had horrible buildup and failed to get anyone to care.

HHH holding the title again makes me apathetic, because I honestly forget he ever lost it.

 

There was so much smark bitching about Benoit looking bad last night that AndrewTS actually thought HHH won the title last night. The fact is Benoit made the man tap out, kicked out of a pedigree and PINNED HHH TO RETAIN THE TITLE.

 

The other thing I thought was interesting is people saying HHH never showed any fear of Goldberg, and was smug and never threatened. Did you see Summerslam? He ran away from him, and tried to lock himself inside the chamber, before trying to quickly dispatch of him with the sledgehammer. I certainly wouldn't say that he showed no fear.

[Dark Age 0]

Benoit NEEDS to win the feud. That's all I have to say on this.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Benoit NEEDS to win the feud. That's all I have to say on this.

WHY? He's been unstoppable since Mania.

[Dark Age 0]

I pretty much said why in the other Triple H thread, but still:

 

No one has BEATEN Triple H. I don't mean in a match, or in terms of being put over or whatever. I mean that no one has ever gotten one over Triple H. Triple H is a bad guy. Bad guys are supposed to lose at the end of the day. Who has Triple H lost to? At the end of a feud, who is the one left standing? Triple H, that's who. Someone needs to defeat him.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I pretty much said why in the other Triple H thread, but still:

 

No one has BEATEN Triple H. I don't mean in a match, or in terms of being put over or whatever. I mean that no one has ever gotten one over Triple H. Triple H is a bad guy. Bad guys are supposed to lose at the end of the day. Who has Triple H lost to? At the end of a feud, who is the one left standing? Triple H, that's who. Someone needs to defeat him.

So why does it HAVE to Benoit? Why can't they save that for Orton? Benoit doesn't need that rub at this point.

[Dark Age 0]

Why does it HAVE to be RVD? Kane is better in the long run.

Why does it HAVE to be Kane? He's dead as a main eventer, but Shawn is having awesome matches, so it can be him.

Why does it HAVE to be Shawn? He's a part time worker. Anyway, Steiner is the guy they're gonna build Raw around this year.

Why does it HAVE to be Steiner? He sucks, and Booker winning the title at Mania is MONEY!

Why does it HAVE to be Booker? He's 40, and he's got back problems. Kevin Nash will bring in ratings because he's a big name making his return, he'll be better because Triple H can carry him to a good match.

Why does it HAVE to be Nash? He sucks, and he's old. Goldberg is THE MAN!

Why does it HAVE to be Goldberg? He's leaving soon, and if we put the belt on Shawn, he can give Jericho a rub.

Why does it HAVE to be Shawn? He doesn't need the belt, and Benoit will have better matches.

Why does it HAVE to be Benoit? Why can't they save that for Orton? Benoit doesn't need that rub at this point.

Why does it HAVE to be Orton? He's in his early twenties, he will get a rub just being IN THE RING with Triple H. Edge is the guy FOR RIGHT NOW!

[Guest The Ultimate Fantasy]

Yeah but Benoit has no gimmick, nor does he do promos also he does not look scary, so in the end, there is no reason (unlike the Undertaker) why HHH should be afraid of him. Think about it; Austin was vicious and attacked anyone on sight, Catus Jack (who HHH is famous for showing fear) was a legend with a bloody past and then you have the hosses like Kane, UT, and Lesner (although didn't Lesner show fear after making Benoit tap? Then again so did HHH after WMXX) who are phyicaly scary.

 

Although if you think about it, has anyone anyone shown fear from either Kurt Angle or the Rock? They should be compared to Benoit, not the Undertaker.

[Dark Age 0]

Triple H shouldn't be scared of Benoit. He should be worried about facing him. He should show signs that Benoit has his number. That's the point. No one expects Triple H to run away as if he's seen a ghost.

[Guest The Ultimate Fantasy]

Triple H shouldn't be scared of Benoit. He should be worried about facing him. He should show signs that Benoit has his number. That's the point. No one expects Triple H to run away as if he's seen a ghost.

True but didn't he do that after WMXX? With his arm in the sling? Of course then he just decided to no-sell the "You Tapped Out" chants. Honestly, the only time I remeber Hunter showing fear was over Foley (when he was Cactus Jack and when he returned to face during Wrestlmania 2000).

[Guest justinpayne]

here's the main issue with this board, most people think that a clean win over someone should happen very often. But in WWE it doesn't happen that way, thats just the way it is, So people get pist.

the way it should be if there were alot of clean wins then all the people here would bitch about that

[Dark Age 0]

WHAT?!? Why would people complain if there were alot of clean pins?