The Keltner List

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

CARL MAYS

 

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

 

No. Tris Speaker was the best in baseball in the teens, and Babe Ruth was the best player in baseball in the twenties.

 

2. Was he the best player on his team?

 

No. Although in fairness, he was a teammate of Babe Ruth from 1915-23, so he didn't stand much of a chance.

 

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

 

No. He was near the top of the rung as far as pitchers go from 1916-21, but he was never THE best.

 

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

 

Yes. He finished 18-13 for the 1916 Red Sox and 21-13 for the '18 Red Sox. Both teams won the World Series. He finished 27-9 and 12-14 for the 1921 and '22 New York Yankees. He also had a tremendous impact on the 1920 AL pennant race, which we'll come back to.

 

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

 

No. His last full season was in 1926, at the age of 34. He hung on as a reliever for a few seasons.

 

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

 

Doubtful. I've never heard anyone make that assertion.

 

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

 

Three of Mays' five most similar pitchers are in the Hall. Lon Warneke just missed the cut, and Urban Shocker might have made the Hall if not for his untimely death in 1928. The sixth most similar pitcher is Eddie Cicotte, who is ineligible for the Hall.

 

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

 

Mays rates well on the Black Ink, Gray Ink, and HOF Standards scores. He's below average, but not far below average. Mays won 207 games in his career. Two other pitchers, Bob Lemon and Hal Newhouser, had 207 career wins. Both had worse W/L percentages than Mays, and both are in the Hall.

 

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

 

None apparent.

 

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

 

Probably not. I advocate Bert Blyleven.

 

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

 

MVP and Cy Young awards weren't awarded in Mays' era.

 

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

 

Ditto. No All-Star games in Mays' time.

 

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

 

Yes. Mays was close to the best pitcher in baseball some years.

 

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

 

Mays is responsible for the rule requiring a clean white ball, as he killed Ray Chapman with a pitch in 1920, MLB's only on field fatality. A controversy over his trade from the Red Sox to the Yankees caused the downfall of American League president Ban Johnson.

 

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

 

Mays was accused of throwing game four of the World Series, but no significant evidence exists. Mays was known as a Roger Clemens type during his career, prone to hitting batters. He only led the league once in hits batsmen, however.

 

Conclusion: Mays is an interesting case. He doesn't appear to be a HOFer at first glance. But he has an excellent record, and alot of similar pitchers are in. He was handcuffed by the Chapman beaning, and only received six votes when he appeared on the ballot. Ultimately, I can't endorse him given the glut of qualified candidates available. There are too many good pitchers who deserve consideration before Mays.

[Beast 0]

What other pitchers deserve consideration before Mays? The only one I can think of is Blyleven, and he's a BBWA candidate, while Mays' fate is controlled by the Veterans. Mays is probably the #1 pitching candidate for Veterans enshrinement. He also recieved the most votes for a pitcher in the 2003 vote.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, Blyleven, Luis Tiant (there's an interesting candidate), Mel Harder, Wilbur Cooper. There's a whole class of pitchers at Mays' level that deserve at least consideration.

[Beast 0]

Harder and Cooper do not have Hall Of Fame stats, even compared to Mays. Mays' ERA is better then Harder and is a few points behind Cooper, which is evened out when you look at the League ERA. Cooper's ERA is 2.89, compared to a 3.35 league ERA, while Mays has 2.92 ERA in a 3.48 League ERA environment. Mays' winning percentage puts them both to shame, and yes he pitched for great Sox and Yankee teams, but Cooper was the great pitcher of the 40's Cardinals, while Harder pitched for the 30's Indians who were almost always in the thick of the pennant race.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

That's Wilbur Cooper, not Mort Cooper.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Al you've said Ron Santo is the best player not in the HOF? Who do people like Bill James think is the best player not in the HOF? Oh, this doesn't include someone like Sandberg who's only been on the ballot 2 years.

[Beast 0]

That's Wilbur Cooper, not Mort Cooper.

 

Oh jeez, my bad. I always get Walker and Wilbur Cooper's names mixed up, as well as Mort and Walker's. I still don't think Wilbur Cooper is better than Carl Mays, but he does look good considering he played for the Pirates.

 

Also, another player, Maury Wills. I hate when his name comes up for debate. He does not have HOF stats, his on-base percentage is horrible, and while it's true he was an awesome speed player, he doesn't belong in the Hall. Even my father, who grew up in L.A. in the 60's, and whose favorite players were Koufax and Wills, doesn't think he should be in.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Al you've said Ron Santo is the best player not in the HOF? Who do people like Bill James think is the best player not in the HOF? Oh, this doesn't include someone like Sandberg who's only been on the ballot 2 years.

 

In James' book The Politics Of Glory (written in 1995), James supports seven players for the Hall. Joe Torre, Nellie Fox (since elected), Ron Santo, Richie Ashburn (elected), Jim Kaat, Phil Niekro (elected), and Ken Boyer.