Is TNA to blame for the dead crowds?

[AmazingRen 0]

I'll admit when the shows were good and the crowd was dead I would always be pissed at them for not giving the wrestler's the response they deserved. However, after last night's show I understand why the just sit on there asses and say nothing. TNA doesn't do anything important to get a hot crowd. Why should there care if Sonny gets money or loses his contract? I know TNA couldn't show ECW clips of Raven and Sabu, but they could've done more to build up the match so that when it happened there would've been more excitement and heat to it. I also understand why the crowd was dead during the Russo promo. He's not interesting and he's very dull. Why didn't they restart the AJ and Kash feud instead of having after only one week of his return? Most of the crowd is casual fans and not wrestler fans so if you just throw two guys in the ring without a reason your going to get a dead crowd because they don't have a reason to cheer the face and boo the heel. The only good thing I saw out of last night's show was Alex Shelley's promo when he got out of the limo and Monty Brown's promo. Now I understand why the crowd is so dead. It's not there fault it's TNA's fault.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Q: Is TNA to blame for the dead crowds?

 

A: When your product goes from good (January-February '03) to great (March-May '03) to average (June-September '03) to terrible (November '03-February '04) within one year, yes. I hold TNA directly responsible for the lack of fan enthusiasm, specifically since they do not push who the fans want to see in the way fans want to see them pushed (Raven, Styles, and Truth should all be vying for the World title still, and should be permanent main-eventers), do not give any reason for less-established wrestlers to be liked, and limit what the workers can do moreso than WWE does (TNA has no real move restrictions, but they told X-Division workers to slow down their matches and tell a story, but tell them to make most of their offense highspots, which are COMPLETELY contradictory instructions, and it's obvious the main event wrestlers need to tone down their style so as to not show how boring and generic a wrestler Jarrett truly is). Unless TNA realizes that the only way to be a force to be reckoned with in this industry is to provide a product that casual and hardcore fans can both enjoy, they will not be successful.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

ViciousFish, could it just be that the TNA crowds are so used to being disappointed that they don't get excited anymore? Whenever they (the fans) want a worker elevated, that worker gets jobbed to Jarrett in a usually embarassing manner (I'm sorry, but guitar shots are not credible anymore, especially when people can take three chairshots in the same match, and I'm pretty sure metal hurts more than plywood).

 

It's really no secret that TNA's average match quality is poor, and has been since Mantel joined the company, and it's also no secret that the moment a face gets over, he gets jobbed to fit the wants of the bookers instead of the wants of the fans. See: Lynn, Jerry jobbing to nearly every other worker on the roster, despite being one of the most over workers in the company.

[Magus 0]

of course they're responsible. the fans are getting bored with the product, and why shouldn't they? TNA has NEVER NEVER NEVER been "good". they've been decent before, and they've had a good head of steam a couple times, but they ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS find a way to fuck it up.

 

case in point: last night they used the blowoff match to one of their biggest fueds to jerk the curtain. then they blew off yet another big fued with no build up whatsoever, and threw it away without a second thought. that, and the fact that the owner/booker/champion continues to run the shows into the ground, well, no wonder fans are apathetic. TNA doesn't care what the fans want anyway. these are the people who pushed Glenn Gilberti as a main eventer.

 

TNA's entire existence has been masturbatory. they've done a lot, but it really hasn't gotten them anywhere. WCW taught me not to care about a lost cause, and as much as i enjoy some of what TNA has, they've really shown that they have no idea what they're doing and are more concerned with pleasing themselves than the fans. fuck it, i'm going to the dark side. it feels less stupid over there.

[Guest Donners]

Because God knows that if we went with "what the fans want", every show would be unmissable and the company would bring in billions.

 

It's not like "fans" may have different likes and dislikes, totally different ideas as to what makes a good show and so forth. It's not like "fans" are not entirely represented by a bunch of people on a messageboard. It's not like "fans" may not actually understand all the workings of a wrestling promotion, or could actually be (gasp) wrong.

 

There are fans who liked Gilberti as a main eventer. There are fans who hated it. There are fans who didn't care either way. There are fans who recognise that it was only a couple of weeks out of a hundred, and wonder why anybody would bother bringing it up as some sort of significant point. Some fans say they wouldn't order a PPV with Chris Harris main eventing. Some said they wouldn't order the next PPV because Harris DIDN'T ME. To talk about "fans" as a general term is ridiculous and meaningless. Obviously every company would try to put out a product which their fans want, otherwise they simply wouldn't survive. Their opinion of what fans want just doesn't happen to accord with everybody's.

 

TNA has made mistakes, fine. Nobody has ever disputed that. But I don't think there is some magic answer held by users of a messageboard, nor that they make significantly more mistakes than any other promotion, company or person. Nor do I see how constant bashing of the promotion actually achieves anything. Praise the good things, criticise the bad things. If the bad things outweigh the good things for a substantial period, then why bother even following the promotion?

 

 

 

Frankly, I think it's going to be difficult to keep fans particularly excited when you've been running shows at the same place for over two years. Without an extremely hardcore ECW/RoH-style fanbase, which TNA just doesn't really have, even above-average shows ar hard to get excited about for a live crowd when it's just the same people and matches you've been seeing for ages. Smackdown was able to turn out terrible shows over several months and still get decent crowd responses because they weren't in the same place twice. Had they been in just the one arena, with a significant number of repeat attendees, they would have been in a lot of trouble.

[Magus 0]

of course there's a magic answer. it involves putting on matches that aren't dumbed down and telling stories that make sense. TNA does neither.

[eirejmcmahon 0]

There are fans who liked Gilberti as a main eventer.

There really weren't y'know.

[Guest HeadDropMark]

Good common sense post Donners.

 

I'd add if NWA TNA was divorced from the Corporate Welfare of Panda Entertainment they'd be dead and buried as a functioning promotion a long time ago.

 

Papering the crowds in Nashville & Orlando may be able to provide an audience (a disinterested one at that), but the paying audience for this product has always been few and far between.

 

For whatever reasons not enough 'fans' are willing to pay for weekly wrestling PPV's at $9.95 a pop to make the whole concept behind the company profitable. The weekly infomercial hasn't changed that, it's only put them further in the red. The idea of running house shows is likely to only further increase loses.

 

Outside of a small cadre of hardcore fans, demand for ideas like the X Division is non-existant. I see nobody on the roster who could make it big in WWE beyond Velocity level.

 

There's no reason to believe that the company will ever show a profit. Demise is inevitable independent of changes in creative direction.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

The problem with the lack of fans for TNA is that other promotions are doing what TNA does, only better and for less money. $40 to see a month's worth of TNA PPV, that's around 7.5 hours, just isn't worth it to most wrestling fans. And no, using "fans" in a general sense is NOT void, since this entire post and the question asked in the first post is about the fans and why they don't feel excited by the TNA product.

 

The reason a lot of people won't see TNA is due to the fact that the $40 they could spend on four episodes of TNA could be used to buy a couple indy tapes, and with the average quality of shows from promotions like Ring of Honor, IWA Mid-South, and Pro Wrestling Guerrila, is it any surprise that your average internet fan would rather view those than a product that insults them (as TNA's does)? Say what you will about the impact of the internet on WWE, because it's true that the internet fans have very little impact there, but TNA's entire market is the internet fans. And in order for TNA to live up to the motto of "wrestling like you've never seen it before," which I believe they have used (either that or something incredibly similar) to market Xplosion and Impact and even the PPV, they need to offer something you cannot see anywhere else. Can you see cruiserweight spotfests in other promotions? Yes, as RoH has a Scramble Tag match on nearly every show. Can you see a person in the main event scene that most people think shouldn't be there in other promotions? Yes, as until recently, Triple H has shown no reason to be in the main event for WWE's Raw brand, and neither has JBL for WWE's SmackDown brand. Can you see two aging hardcore icons battle it out in other promotions? Yes, as CZW and IWA Mid-South run deathmatches and the sort frequently, and will often get bigger-name talent to participate.

 

The real question is: what does TNA offer than you can't get from another promotion that will cost you less money and prove to be the better choice? Nothing. And that is why I truly feel TNA's crowds are dead, because after two years of being jerked around with direction changes within the company, wrestlers they want to be pushed jobbed, and match quality ranging from "damn good" to "absolutely dreadful," many of them couldn't give a fuck about the product anymore. I know I don't, I know Mike doesn't, I know Magus doesn't, the Nashville crowd doesn't, and the Orlando crowd soon won't (especially considering their shows are pretty much just jobber shows to hype the event that the Nashville fans will see).

 

The only real hope for TNA is to go back and see why they became popular amongst wrestling fans in the first place. Once they figure this out, they need to capture that spark again and harness it.

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

Is TNA to blame for the dead crowds?

 

Who else are you gonna blame? You can't blame me. Can't blame the net. Can't blame ROH or anyone else.

 

And here's the biggest one; you can't blame the fans. If they aren't excited by what they see, it's certainly not their fault. You can say " Well, x vs. y was agreat match, but the crowd was just dead." Here's the catch, if it wasn't entertaining, it wasn't a great match.

 

Soyes, it is TNA's fault. They need to find out what their fans want, and give it to them. From what I can tell, TNA fans have had their fill of JJ. TNA needs to take note.

[Guest Donners]

What the hell does Jarrett have to do with it? How does his two minutes of screen time cause a dead crowd for every other match? If there is a problem causing the lack of reaction, it's caused by one hell of a lot more than one person.

[Guest Coffey]

This is a good thread, which brought me out of the woodwork. Is it TNA's fault? I don't know. It really is deeper than that. TNA as a whole? No. A part of TNA? Obviously. The real question, however, is who's fault is it? The workers? The writers? The owners?

 

The crowd is dead because they don't really have a reason to not be. I mean, how many of them, in the live audience, are even wrestling fans? Aren't a lot of the live crowd comp'd tickets just for being at Universal Studios? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

 

On top of that, as has previously been mentioned by other posters, the actual wrestling fans that are there (assuming my hypothesis from the previous paragraph stands true) don't really have a reason to support what's going down on the shows. Impact, basically, is a meaningless show. It's a shill. It really doesn't give the live crowd (or television crowd for that matter) any real reason to watch the show from week to week. Sure, it'll try to sell you on the next PPV...but if you're a new fan, and you watch Impact...what are you going to think? Hell, let's be optimistic. Let's say you watch Impact and it impresses you. Let's say that the show is good enough so that you, as a new fan, give them a shot. So, you fork down the ten bucks for the Wednesday night PPV. OK, so if the Wednesday PPV is good...you'll want to tune into Impact again. Correct? OK, so if you tune into Impact again, and realize it's just another week of trying to get you to order the PPV again...would you? I guess you might, but most people won't be able to just spend ten bucks a week to watch a two hour wrestling show. Not when they can watch it for free on Monday & Thursday.

 

Now look at the other situation. Let's say they order the PPV after watching Impact for the first time and the PPV is bad. You may have just lost a fan for good. There's a good chance that person will never watch your product again because they just "wasted" ten dollars. In that situation, who's fault is it? The workers because they didn't entertain enough with their work? The bookers/writers for not providing the material to put on a good match? The owners for having ego's?

 

TNAW need a big storyline. Something to put them over the top. Something to put them on the map. Something that would give people a reason to tune into Impact each week and want to pay for the PPV each week. WCW had the NWO. WWF had Austin Vs. McMahon. TNAW need something of their own. Something original that will grab hold of the viewing audiences attentions...whether they're in the crowd or watching on TV. Until they have that...the crowds are only going to get worse. Jeff Hardy isn't the spark that the company needs. Dusty Rhodes being mad at Vince Russo isn't going to do it.

[Guest Donners]

I honestly think S.E.X. was not that far away. Okay, it became a big mess at the end an then just quietly died off, but for a while there I was hooked. Hell, I was hooked from Russo's first promo.

 

I don't mind the idea of Jeff Hardy at all. No, he's not a solution, but he has attracted the attention of many casual fans - in Australia, at least. That's a start.

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

What the hell does Jarrett have to do with it?

 

I was simply pointing out one glaringly obvious place that they were ignoring their fans. How does it affect the rest of the product? It pisses the fans off. You don't want pissed off fans.

 

don't mind the idea of Jeff Hardy at all. No, he's not a solution, but he has attracted the attention of many casual fans - in Australia, at least. That's a start.

 

I hate to retread old ground, but where are these casual fans? When they were bringing him in all I heard was about all the Hardy marks that would tune in. Has he affected the buy rates at all? What about live attendance? No. Maybe four or five fans, but that's not gonna make a difference in the long run.

[Guest Donners]

I have the misfortune to be part of a wrestling message board in Australia that attracts a large number of marks. Prior to Hardy coming in, you'd be lucky to see one or two TNA threads a month. There were five on his debut alone, and two a week since then. Unfortunately, they obviously can't affect buy rates or attendance, but they are at least following the promotion.

[Guest MikeSC]

Donners, anecdotes aren't evidence.

 

TNA has pissed on the fanbase. For all of the gripes about HHH, he, at least, is willing to STEP ASIDE. Jarrett is not. "He only gets a few minutes of air time"? So? His "Few minutes" consist of him just burying anybody they stick in the ring with him.

-=Mike

[AmazingRen 0]

TNAW need a big storyline. Something to put them over the top. Something to put them on the map. Something that would give people a reason to tune into Impact each week and want to pay for the PPV each week. WCW had the NWO. WWF had Austin Vs. McMahon. TNAW need something of their own. Something original that will grab hold of the viewing audiences attentions...whether they're in the crowd or watching on TV. Until they have that...the crowds are only going to get worse. Jeff Hardy isn't the spark that the company needs. Dusty Rhodes being mad at Vince Russo isn't going to do it.

First off, great post. I honestly think the only thing TNA can do right now to get people's attention is a Heavyweight feud between a heel Raven and a face AJ. Along with:

 

Truth v. a heel Chris Dainels

Jerry Lynn v. Jeff Jarrett

Alex Shelley v. Sabin

a face Abyss v. Monty Brown (if they would build this up right it could be a great feud)

Bobby Rude v. Sonny Siaki

Sabu v. Vito (hardcore feud)

Hardy v. Michael Shane (considering Shane wrestles WWE style this feud would be perfect for Hardy)

[Twisted Intestine 0]

First off, great post. I honestly think the only thing TNA can do right now to get people's attention is a Heavyweight feud between a heel Raven and a face AJ. Along with:

 

Truth v. a heel Chris Dainels

Jerry Lynn v. Jeff Jarrett

Alex Shelley v. Sabin

a face Abyss v. Monty Brown (if they would build this up right it could be a great feud)

Bobby Rude v. Sonny Siaki

Sabu v. Vito (hardcore feud)

Hardy v. Michael Shane (considering Shane wrestles WWE style this feud would be perfect for Hardy)

You have to remember that the casual wrestling fan won't know who half these people are... so it won't catch their attention.

 

Hardy WILL catch the attention of the casual wrestling fan, since he was once a big name in the WWE, and everyone knows who he is..

 

If they order the PPV or tune into Impact for Hardy, and TNA puts on a good show, it'll catch their attention and draw them into the company.

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

Hardy WILL catch the attention of the casual wrestling fan, since he was once a big name in the WWE, and everyone knows who he is..

 

 

Unfortunately, this HAS NOT happened. Not in any kind of mass way anyhow. People told me when he sighned thta given a week or two build, Hardy would draw huge. Well, now he's getting his title shot, and it's been built for at least a month. So, if the buy-rate doesn't go up significantly for his title shot, can we finally put to rest the myth that Jeff Hardy is a draw?

[Magus 0]

JJ's writing the show and gets final say for everything that hits the air, so he is INSANELY responsible for the sucky product. and its not just his shitty writing, its his shitty work.

 

the wrestlers can't do much on their end, because you can have a great match all day long, but if its overbooked to hell and the wrong people are winning, it doesn't matter how much of a clinic you put on. and we haven't seen a decent angle in fucking FOREVER. you can count TNA's good fueds on one hand, basically.

 

and even when the tag division and X Division were doing well, the main event stunk to high heaven because of... you guessed it... Double J. the fans are tired of him, and tired of the nonwrestlers. if TNA is supposed to be wrestling-oriented, why do we have to put up with this bullshit?

 

basically, if TNA were to listen to ONE THING from the fans, then just take Jarrett, Russo, and Dusty off TV. Jarrett seems to actually believe that TNA won't survive without him and some has-beens hogging the spotlight. the fact is, TNA will probably do better without them.

[Fro 0]

The problem with TNA is the fact that because they haven't weekly PPVs, they haven't been able to create stars like they should. The other problem is a lot of guys they're pushing aren't ready to hold the world belt and have credible feuds every week. They're also putting out a crappy product at points. They've turned Impact into a glorified WCW Worldwide in an attempt to hype the PPV. Also, running the same house every week is going to kill the crowd unless the booking is excellent, like OVW, for instance.

 

At this point, they need to suck it up and go to monthly PPVs and get some sort of sense of direction as to which guys the company is going to push besides Jarrett and the very green Monty Brown. The current format doesn't let them put on a blowaway show to get everyone talking or get anything remotely episodic going on.

[Magus 0]

I'll admit that the weekly PPV format puts TNA at a high disadvantage. but they won't have that excuse for long.

 

If anything though, monthly PPVs should make Impact better, make the PPVs better, and maybe if they start touring they'll get some better ideas of what other fans want to see.