If the wwf listened to "smarks"

[Guest Redhawk]

I got this off the DVDR 500 list. Now I think that list is bullshit anyway -- how can The Rock not be on there, but Chuck Fuckin' Palumbo is? -- but it is a well-known and for-some-reason respected list. Here's how the WWF wrestlers ranked:

 

2) Eddie Guerrero

39) Kurt Angle

41) Steve Austin

49) William Regal

54) Chris Jericho  

60) Yoshihiro Tajiri

103) Booker T

119) Billy Kidman

123) Hurricane

130) Spike Dudley

169) Christian  

179) Raven  

182) Matt Hardy  

199) Goldust

202) Lance Storm  

211) Chavo Guerrero Jr.  

213) Edge  

248) Rob Van Dam

267) X-Pac  

276) Jeff Hardy  

280) D'Lo Brown

348) Ric Flair

376) Justin Credible

379) Buh Buh Ray Dudley  

394) Tommy Dreamer

410) Big Valbowski

416) Triple H

428) Shane  

439) Chuck Palumbo

470) Crash Holly

 

Now, if the WWF were to go by these rankings, Spike Dudley would be in the upper midcard, William Regal and Tajiri would be main eventing, RVD would be a lower midcarder, and Triple H and The Rock would barely be on TV. So I, for one, am thankful that they listen to marks more than smarks.

 

Oh, and what the FUCK are Justin Credible and Tommy Dreamer doing on there?

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

The Rock isn't on there because he is not currently wrestling, he's promoting his movie and getting ready to film another one. He's usually there somewhere when he's active. And the list is based totally on match quality, so view it within its scope and its fine.

[Guest Redhawk]

The Rock was No. 500 the last time I saw him on there. And it's not like Shane and Tommy Dreamer are wrestling, so why are they on there?

[Guest TheHulkster]

Has chuck ever had anything even close to a ***** or even **** match (or even ***)? I can think of several the Rock and HHH have been in. As far as being consitant performers, i'm sure Justin Credible put on a lot more exciting matches than the Rock and HHH. Right?.....*crickets chirping*

Anyway, I enjoy visiting the Death Vallet Driver site, but that list is pretty foolish.

[Guest alfdogg]

Dreamer is wrestling.  He was on Heat or Jakked, one of them, this week.

[Guest the pinjockey]

normally I don't like to say things against these types of list because A) they are one groups opinion and B) they watch much more wrestling then me, but I can not imagine any circumstances that a list would have Golddust 217 spots higher than HHH and Kurt Angle thirteen spots below Steve Corino (I saw that from another post of this list).

[Guest RickyChosyu]

1) That's just one list, and does not, in any way, represent the collective will of all "smarts" or whatever you want to call them. It's one website, and not everyone has to agree with it.

 

2) Ranking on the list does not determine how much the DVDR guys want him to be pushed. Eddy Guererro being ranked higher on the list doesn't mean he deserves a main event spot more than the Rock, it just means that as a pure worker, he's better.

 

3) Yes, for whatever reason the DVDR guys like Regal, and think he's a God. Whatever, it's their opinion. However, the collective opinion, from what I've seen, is that Regal is a slug and hasn't had a good match in two years.

[Guest Redhawk]

I know not all smarks agree with the list, but it's reasonable to assume that if the WWF wanted to get the "pulse" of the internet fan, they might just check out the list.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

small problem with your reasoning Redhawk. that list wasn't about who we want at the top of the fed. it was a poll to see who we thought was the best.

 

and the wwf would never try to get 'the pulse' of the internet fan because Vince hates us because we don't all think he's the gratest thing that ever happened to wrestling.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

How the hell do you rank someone as a worker?

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"How the hell do you rank someone as a worker? "

 

Watch the matches they have and then judge them based on that? The same way you rank an actor based on his performances in the movies he's been in.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

"How the hell do you rank someone as a worker? "

 

Watch the matches they have and then judge them based on that? The same way you rank an actor based on his performances in the movies he's been in.

 

How do you rank an individul's performance in a match though?

[Guest alfdogg]

1) That's just one list, and does not, in any way, represent the collective will of all "smarts" or whatever you want to call them. It's one website, and not everyone has to agree with it.

 

2) Ranking on the list does not determine how much the DVDR guys want him to be pushed. Eddy Guererro being ranked higher on the list doesn't mean he deserves a main event spot more than the Rock, it just means that as a pure worker, he's better.

 

3) Yes, for whatever reason the DVDR guys like Regal, and think he's a God. Whatever, it's their opinion. However, the collective opinion, from what I've seen, is that Regal is a slug and hasn't had a good match in two years.

FINALLY someone agrees with me about Regal.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"How do you rank an individul's performance in a match though?"

 

For starters, try the following:

 

1. Did you like the match?

 

2. Did someone carry the match: dictate the pacing, squash the other guy, drag some useless slug around the ring, etc.

 

3. Were the moves used in the match well executed (can be asked seperately for both wrestlers)?

 

4. Did someone run out of gas and start blowing up?

 

Keep asking questions like that, it probably takes some effort, and like any listing of something it's hard to say definitively "number 12 is better than number 13", let alone "number 437 is better than number 438", but at some point you number them and let the chips fall where they may. You can't really compare Ali to Ruth to Jordan to Gretzky, but SI had no real problem when they had to bite the bullet and do just that.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

The whole thing seems extremely opinonated to me, if you are basing it on what matches entertain you. It seems more opinionated than authorative, because different things entertain different people. Who are the wrestlers supposed to be entertaining, the fans or someone making a list? Whose entertaiment do they base these lists on?

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

they base it own their own opinions.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Who cares about their opinion?

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

Thats an awful list, IMO. Spike Dudley at 130? Please.

[Guest stretch plum]

"The whole thing seems extremely opinonated to me"

 

That might be because it is. Top (insert here) lists of this nature tend to be.

 

Ugh. Excuse the deadpan but it seems EVERY time the folks at DVD drop the 500 bomb there's this same collective constipation of the brain.

 

Of course it's subjective. Fuck sake.

 

"if you are basing it on what matches entertain you. It seems more opinionated than authorative, because different things entertain different people."

 

And..that's pretty much the point. Hardcore wrestling fans are the most geeky varied insecure opinionated disagreeable Pavlovian hypocritical vitriolic biased fanboy wankers on the planet, so a list like this is the perfect devise in fostering fine discussion of the grappling arts.

 

In other words it's just one massive troll. And pretty effective by the looks of things.

 

"Who are the wrestlers supposed to be entertaining, the fans or someone making a list? Whose entertaiment do they base these lists on?"

 

Gee, might want to guess the compilers of the list themselves? You don't think?

 

Hashimoto #4 my ass.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I was asking whose entertainment the list is based on because I don't think a wrestler bases the quality of his work on how much he entertained the DVDR people. I'm just asking about this list because it's the second tim I've heard of it. I remember Lance Storm talking about it last year in one of his commentaries, but I dismissed it because rankings such as those are pretty worthless in my opinion.

[Guest Brian]

"how can The Rock not be on there, but Chuck Fuckin' Palumbo is?"

 

Rock's probably a top two-hundred guy, if he was active enough, but he wasn't active enough to make the list.

 

 

"Oh, and what the FUCK are Justin Credible and Tommy Dreamer doing on there?"

 

I can't explain Credible, but he is a decent wrestler. Tommy Dreamer was having a career rennaissance in the indies before coming up to the WWF. It was a total resurgance that should have happened years earlier. He was awesome.

 

 

"Kurt Angle thirteen spots below Steve Corino"

 

Go watch Zero-One. Corino has much more ring presence than Angle.

 

 

"3) Yes, for whatever reason the DVDR guys like Regal, and think he's a God. Whatever, it's their opinion. However, the collective opinion, from what I've seen, is that Regal is a slug and hasn't had a good match in two years."

 

He shows shades of what he once was, the greatest technical wrestler on the planet and one of the top brawlers. That's enough for me to put him in the top one hundred.

 

 

"The whole thing seems extremely opinonated to me, if you are basing it on what matches entertain you. It seems more opinionated than authorative, because different things entertain different people. Who are the wrestlers supposed to be entertaining, the fans or someone making a list? Whose entertaiment do they base these lists on?"

 

As I've said many times before, it's more than possible to throw out all bias and look t the quality of the work, the larger contributions, how the pace is dictated, who's exercising influence and control, and how good the final product is. Anyways, the point of this list is not a definitive mark, it's to give people a ground to search out tapes, to argue, and to be opinionated and give discussion like this.

 

 

"Thats an awful list, IMO. Spike Dudley at 130? Please."

 

You're right. He should be higher.

 

 

"Hashimoto #4 my ass."

 

Once again, Zero-One. It's my favorite promotion right now.

[Guest the 1inch punch]

True, Regal sucks, but his mic work is Godlike, especially with the pillock thing on RAW

[Guest notJames]

...Hardcore wrestling fans are the most geeky varied insecure opinionated disagreeable Pavlovian hypocritical vitriolic biased fanboy wankers on the planet, so a list like this is the perfect devise in fostering fine discussion of the grappling arts.

 

In other words it's just one massive troll. And pretty effective by the looks of things.

How true.

 

In other news, I ordered that Japanese Hardcore Wrestling II (yeah, I know...) and Jun Kasai definitely deserves to be last on all lists, not just up to 500. What a tool. Monkey boy indeed.

 

Although that 6-women cage match was well worth buying that heaping pile of crap. Nothing I like seeing more than bloody Asian bitches dropping each other on their heads and stomping on them from the tops of cages.

 

(And before the PC police turn on their sirens, I can say that 'cuz I'm an Asian bitch too, albeit a male one...)  

[Guest Vyce]

If the wwf listened to "smarks", It'd be worse than it already is

 

I agree and disagree.

 

From a workrate perspective, you'd be wrong.  Guys like Benoit & Guerrero would be prominently featured, and would be putting on great matches.  No more Rikishi or Bossman fouling up my TV screen.  It'd be spectacular.

 

From a business perspective, you're right.  As much as we "smart fans" love guys like Benoit, or Corino (who really is underrated by the mainstream), or Hashimoto, or fill in the blank, it's the marks paying out big bucks to see the Hogans and Undertakers of the world fight it out.

 

I disagree with some of the choices on this list, but really, it is good to see some people who deserve recognition (Regal, Corino, etc.) get their due.

[Guest Special K]

those lists are fucking stupid. look at Matt hardy and Goldust in realtion to some others, and Eddie's good, but has he had a **** star match recently? Not in the last half year as I recall. Anyway, if Smarks like us ran the world, indeed the ratings would dip a bit, because the average public doesn't want to see Benoit v Storm in a 20-minute match as much as many as us do. Still, I think they've been throeing us a bone lately, even if hogan holds the title, and holding a happy balance between the workrate-buffs and the general public is just good business.

[Guest]

Are they referring to Shane McMahon when they say Shane? Nothing against Shane(I actually like him in the ring), but when was the last time he had a match?

[Guest evenflowDDT]

I can't believe they ranked the great wrestler Crash Holly at the bottom... after all, he's SO much better than anyone else on that list!

 

I think it's funny how people get worked up on this.  If I look at someone's "top 10 horror movie lists" and see The Blair Witch Project, I don't chew them out about it, I say a prayer for them and move on since I know I can't trust their opinion.

 

I've only been to the fabled DVDR site twice I think, and I have no idea what the hell anyone is talking about over there.  Who are they that you guys should give a damn enough to make a big deal about their list?

 

Oh yea, Tommy Dreamer deserves every bit of praise he can get.  I heard a lot about him before, and now that I've seen him on Heat, I can agree: he's a great worker (he sold an arm injury all the way to the ref lifting his arm... damn... that's impressive when you look at the main-eventers), even if he doesn't have a character in the WWF.

[Guest mickberna]

I'll put it like this...

 

I don't trust the opinion of ANYONE who has the time to put together a Top 500 list.  Whoever has that much expendable time can't possibly be socially well-adjusted.

[Guest]

I think Lance Storm said it best last year about these guys and other "smarks" on the net. You truely can't judge who is and isn't a good/great worker unless you're a worker and in the business yourself.

[Guest]

Here is Lance's commentary on this guys from last year......

 

Commentary

 

Rating Workers

Can it be done?

 

May 15,2001

A friend of mine sent me a link to a web site that rates workers. In fact they produce a top 500 workers in the business list (www.deathvalleydriver.com/dvd500.html). He sent this to me because we have, on numerous occasions, talked and debated over what makes up a great worker. I’ve said many times that I don’t feel you can accurately rate workers and I think lists like this prove my point. With wrestling being such a subjective art it becomes largely a matter of taste. Even considering a list, such as this, to be accurate not to mention feeling yourself qualified to make such a list, without actually working with the people on it, is ludicrous and to be honest I find it quite offensive.

 

I don’t think anyone outside of the business can have a complete grasp of what being a great worker is all about and the complexities involved there in. Granted avid fans, that pay attention, can tell who has talent and who doesn’t, but to think you understand the business enough to determine whether Eddie Guerrero is a better worker than Chris Benoit or visa versa is insane. I’ve been in the business 11 years and am considered a damn fine worker yet I can’t answer that question. I realize they are both very talented guys but being that I haven’t worked either of them I don’t know for sure what all they each bring to the table.

 

Let me first point out a few thing that I feel make up a great worker that more often than not fans over look. First and foremost safety, if a guy is beating the hell out of you in order to make his stuff look good, I don’t consider him a good worker. You also have to have the ability to work around your injuries and others’. You have to be able to wrestle a diversity of matches and opponents and still look good. You have to have the ability to make others look good despite their shortcomings. You have to be able to put together a great match, execute it, and lead others through it. You also have to, and this one is a dieing art, be able to work the people. Make them buy what you are selling, not just throw a bunch of high spots out there so they can go “OH!” When you do that you are letting the fans call the match, and they are working you. (I may get into this aspect more next week)

 

Okay now on to the list. I’m basically going to pick wholes in it to show how these lists are never accurate or fair to those of us who are on it. I don’t think the creators of the list should take offence. My doing this commentary will likely generate more traffic for their little list than they ever imagined. Like they say, “Any press is good press!”

 

1. Kawada: Now I haven’t seen any of his stuff in a while, and I’m told it has been extremely good but let’s be honest here. His stuff looks good because its ¾’s legit. He beats the hell out of guys. Does anyone honestly think he could wrestle non All Japan style matches? Could he work someone who has a neck injury and still have a good match? Could he pull off a decent match with a very limited North American style worker? Kawada is very good at his certain style of match with the workers he’s been working with for the last 5-10 years. Is he truly well rounded and diverse enough to be considered the best this sport has? I doubt it.

 

20. Chris Daniels: Nothing against the guy, he’s actually a friend of mine and I think he’s quite talented, but he does not have the experience level or the ability to dictate and carry a match to warrant this ranking. Putting him way ahead of guys like Hunter and Eddie just shows that our list makers are marks for Indy guys who do a ton of moves. I don’t think Chris would put himself ahead of a lot of the guys he’s ahead of on this list.

 

26. Great Sasuke: Everybody loves this guy, and granted he’s fun to watch, but believe me he is not a great worker. I’ve worked with the guy and I would call him a poor to very poor worker. He has good execution of spots and is one of the best aerial flyers there is but when the high spots are over this guy can’t work a lick! Working 6-man lucha matches there isn’t much outside of the spots and the dives so you don’t notice it, but believe me if he’s not in there with a guy to carry the wrestling this guy is lost!

 

45. HHH: Come on, here is a guy with versatility who has head lined and stole the show on PPV and he’s ranked below several Indy workers. Give me a break!

 

60. Lance Storm: I won’t comment. My opinion is likely bias. I just thought you would want to know where I ranked.

 

90. Cham Pain: I know this guy, and I’ve seen him work. Placing him 58 spots ahead of Billy Kidman should be a crime punishable by death!

 

148. Billy Kidman: See # 90.

 

250. This one is a classic example of people not understanding what the word “Worker” even means. Jarrett is a classic great worker. He can go to the ring with nothing and run a match on the fly. I know I’ve worked him. Our match was put over in the sheets and on the net. We both worked 2 or three times that night and we went to the ring with nothing but “Let’s just throw it back and forth, get a lot of near falls, and we’ll hit the “Stroke” when Steiner comes out” That is working. Everyone in the WCW locker room loves working with Jeff, because it’s easy. He doesn’t have Flair charisma on interviews, he doesn’t have an RVD offensive move set, and he doesn't have Lex Luger's body, but Jarrett can damn sure work. If there are 249 better workers in this sport than Jeff Jarrett, there is 200-240 of them I’m yet to meet!

 

312. Ricky Morton: I haven’t seen any of his work of late but Ricky Morton on his deathbed is a better worker than half this business.

 

500. RVD: I will be the first person to say Rob isn’t the most diverse well-rounded worker out there, but to use any criteria to get Rob this far down a list would also eliminate most of the guys in the top 100.

 

Well those are a few of the more interesting rankings. Where everyone actually belongs, I have no idea! I just like pointing out the fact that “A great match does not a great worker make!”

 

Till next week,

Lance

 

 

P.S. Don't forget to check out www.rfvideo.com for there weekly sale. Featuring The best of Lance Storm and The Lance Storm Shoot Interview. Both tapes for $28.95

--------------------------------------------------

Here is a list of e-mails Storm and the guy at DVD500 had. Storm posted them last year, LoL

 

http://www.stormwrestling.com/commentary/a...?y=2001&m=5