If the wwf listened to "smarks"

[Guest Brian]

I remember the whole Storm/DVDVR saga. Basically Strom came on the board a few times and got his ass handed to him. He brought the same old carny argument I've heard hundreds of times, and that was the one thing he had.

[Guest Ripper]

Brian, no matter how much the DV guys think they handed lance his ass, he still wins in the end.  I can't walk up to a guy in the NBA and tell him whats life like in the NBA, who works harder and such.  Well, I can, but my opinon will basically mean shit to him, because he KNOWS.  I would be on the outside looking in.  

 

Same for these guys and this list.  It looked down right pathetic for them to tell Lance Storm, a guy that worked with the people, who a good worker is and who isn't.  He is working with them.  I can't REALLY tell you who the best worker is at your job, but you have a better insight than I.  I can tell you who LOOKS like they are working harder or who LOOKS easier to work with.  I can tell you who LOOKS like they are carrying the workload, but looks can be decieving.  

 

We don't KNOW who carried a match at all.  The two men in the ring can tell you who was dictating the pace of the match.  We don't KNOW who is easier to work with.  Only the guy working with someone can say "Yeah, he is easy to work with." or "No, he is really difficult to work with.  

 

In short, those guys looked like morons telling a wrestler who is a better worker when they have never worked with any of them.  Their arguments were wonderfully structured and all, but in the end, there is no way they can possible know.  They know who entertains them the most.  

 

You can SAY Eddy guerro is a better wrestler all day, but none of us can be sure how many moves, how easy he is to work with, rather or no they take it easy at points another wrestler might be.  Its all guess work.  It would be cool if they admitted that, but instead that tried to argue with a wrestler about how great another wrestler is.

[Guest]

and, Lance went from being #90 last year, to 200+ this year. No hard feelings on the DVD500 guys side, Huh?

[Guest Brian]

Storm also didn't get a whole lot of opportunities. He didn't have a lot of good opponents to prove himself against. He had a standout match with a pretty green-to-singles Edge in the last update.

 

The thing was, Storm's points were pretty moot. He hasn't worked with Sasuke in nearly ten years. He generalized Kawada like every other rube does. Daniels had some trly awesome matches that Storm doesn't see. You have to understand how they're being ranked. It's for a six month period of watching every match they can get.

 

And about rating workers. Watch the consistency of their matches. Watch when moves are hit, at what points they're being used. Consistency is so important in telling who's controlling a match. A lot of the workers, especially in the WWF, work out of a mold. So yeah, you can tell. You look at their body of work, who they were facing, how consistent they are, how that consistency plays out in their match, who's carrying the offensive moves, who's selling properly, who's utilizing psychology, who's calling audibles (it's not tough to catch), who's dictating the pace, and there's probably even more factors.

 

Seriously, you can't watch 82 basketball games and tell who's busting their ass, who's hustling up and down the court, who leaped into the crowd, who was putting in more effort.

[Guest Austin3164life]

That list just plain sucks anyway.  Let's say all of the moderators picked the five most intelligent, most patient, most open-minded smarks on this website, I feel the WWF would be better, because we'd be watching Booker T vs. Eddy Guerrero and Chris Benoit vs. Steve Austin and Kurt Angle vs. Brock Lesnar........

[Guest Ripper]

But Brian, if Lance wrestled Saskue 20 years ago, he still has had one more match with him than anyone writting for the internet.  The guy is more up close and personal with guys in the business than anyone that writes for the internet(you are never going to just shoot the shit with a reporter 100% because you KNOW it will end up on the net/television and might get back to the wrong people).  I am sure he has more of a inside view of how he and others within the business(some of whom have wrestled him Saske recently) would rate Saske as a performer over some guys that watched tapes.  

 

Are you honestly telling me you don't see how moronic it is some internet writers watching tapes to tell a sucessful professional wreslter who is or isn't a good worker despite him actually have wrestled these people, beingin contact with people that wrestle in the business, knows suddle nuances about the business that some might not even see?? Seriously, a bunch of guys behiind a computer know more about wrestling than the guy thats been wrestling over a decade??? REALLY think about how ridiculous that sounds.

[Guest notJames]

and, Lance went from being #90 last year, to 200+ this year. No hard feelings on the DVD500 guys side, Huh?

NICE~!  

[Guest Brian]

"But Brian, if Lance wrestled Saskue 20 years ago, he still has had one more match with him than anyone writting for the internet."

 

But also by his definition he doesn't have any discretion on what he's done in the last six months, which is how the list is supposed to work.

They have lots of indie guys who visit their site, and they could ask them for help. But it gets no where near as much complaints from the rubes that don't watch the stuff. I mean, do you think Lance Strom asked somebody who's worked with Kawada in the last couple of years what he's liked. Do you think he asked Daniels, who's pretty pissed at Sasuke at that point from shorting him and making his work extra on the tour by the way, how good he is currently? Do you think Storm might still hold a grudge with Sasuke from not giving him a run in M-Pro when he came asking after WAR?

 

 

"The guy is more up close and personal with guys in the business than anyone that writes for the internet."

 

Which means he's subject to more bias than us.

 

 

Seriously, you can't tell me that you can't look at 90% of the matches and tell why they were good, who was doing the work. It's really borderline, but I can give just a few examples:

 

Benoit vs. Sasuke, Super J-Cup '95

The basic story here is that Benoit has the idea that he wants to work a tribute match to his idol, Dynamite Kid, and Sasuke is the perfect foil, working the Tiger Mask end of that match. Benoit has obvious control throughout the match, carrying the pace, keeping Sasuke in check.

 

Benoit vs. Angle

Never was I more frustrated with any set of matches than this here. Angle's a good worker, even considered great by this point, but the guy brought these matches down. He was detrimental to these matches, getting blown-up, being carried on the mat (Benoit had control, it was pretty obvious), bailing out, and just not following through. After his summer run, he vastly improved compared to this  and his KOTR match (where Shane was calling some easily visible audibles, and some that weren't).

 

Eddie vs. RVD

This match should have, could have, would have been better. There was some sort of transition audible called that limited these guys from going to their full potential. I mean, RVD had control of the first half of the match, and it was devoid of any flow or psychology? Than Eddie took control and it was decent though the pace was still wack because RVD had used up his spots in the first half, the psychology was there.

[Guest]

 

Are you honestly telling me you don't see how moronic it is some internet writers watching tapes to tell a sucessful professional wreslter who is or isn't a good worker despite him actually have wrestled these people, beingin contact with people that wrestle in the business, knows suddle nuances about the business that some might not even see?? Seriously, a bunch of guys behiind a computer know more about wrestling than the guy thats been wrestling over a decade??? REALLY think about how ridiculous that sounds.

So if I am understanding your line of logic correctly, Ripper, I can dismiss any negative or positive reviews for the movie Spider-Man from any reviewer that doesn't have a directing or acting background.

 

I suppose the only man to listen to would be Roger Ebert, since he's, to my knowledge, the only movie critic that wrote a screenplay, or was involved in the film industry in some form or fashion.

 

Just whom sounds ridiculous here?

 

As far as Storm dropping from 90 to 200+ on this list, have you seen his matches (the precious few he's been in) lately?  I'm surprised that he'd stay on a list.

[Guest Redhawk]

I think he's just saying that he would trust Lance Storm's opinion more than someone who's never wrestled. Can't say I disagree either. Anyone is qualified to give an opinion. I mean, I've never played basketball beyond Little League, but I can give some good observations on the NBA. However, I would fully expect someone to trust Karl Malone's opinon before they trusted mine.

[Guest]

I think he's just saying that he would trust Lance Storm's opinion more than someone who's never wrestled. Can't say I disagree either. Anyone is qualified to give an opinion. I mean, I've never played basketball beyond Little League, but I can give some good observations on the NBA. However, I would fully expect someone to trust Karl Malone's opinon before they trusted mine.

But would you trust Storm's opinion on something that he'd never seen before?

 

For whatever reason, the DVDVR guys have a listing of over 500 workers.  It stands to reason that, despite whatever personal bias they may have, between the members of the self-titled "playaz" they have seen all 500 of the workers in action, in some form or fashion, whether on tape, or live.

 

That speaks volumes to the dedication (unhealthy obsession?) of the guys running this outfit.

 

I, personally, am glad that someone sacrificed so much time (that I did not have to), to watch that stuff, take notes, & put this list together.

 

I certainly don't agree with the rankings, since there's clearly a bias towards East Coast indie wrestlers, as well as an apparent & open disdain for WWF workers (not that they don't deserve it..), but it's not my list & I didn't bother to become familiar enough with other workers to put together a quantitative ranking of the best workers in the industry.

 

I stick to what I like, & that's about it.

 

More important, I like what I like & I like being vocal about it:  I don't accept Lance Storm's "fans should be seen & not heard" philosophy at all.

 

I'm not the biggest lucha libre fan, but thanks to this list, I'm now curious as to what makes Shocker their choice for #1.  

 

Maybe I will agree with them after watching a few tapes?

[Guest Redhawk]

Good point there. But even if Storm hadn't seen a particular person work, it's possible that he's talked to a fellow wrestler who has either seen or worked with Wrestler X. And since Storm and his wrestler buddies would have a better understanding when talking about working than, say, me and you, you see where the expert (pro wrestler) still has more credibility.

[Guest Brian]

I can understand where you're going, but the chances someone would come up in conversation is slight unless they were either very bad or very good. Plus, what will reflect is what that worker did or didn't like. Also, Storm going on just the word of another worker on someone he's never seen seems just as bad as what he's commenting on.

[Guest]

I don't wanna get back into this subject too much again, but I don't think Storm was ever trying to say "fans should be seen & not heard."

 

If that was the case, I don't think Storm would cater to us on here and update his weekly column almost every week.

 

I don't think he was trying to put anyone down, just trying to prove a point.

 

Lance Storm comes across as a pretty smart guy.

[Guest Joshi Guerrero]

Being a wrestling "reviewer"(or whatever else you feel like calling them), and being a wrestler are entirely separate things. When you are inside any business you can never see the big picture and any art form needs people to critique it. Thus, we have lists like the DVDVR-500, Take it with a grain of salt, yes. But don't call it crap just because Lance Storm said so.

 

Wrestlers have been calling Dave Meltzer all kinds of names for years now, and if you think that makes him any less credible you're an idiot.

 

EDIT: The Shane on the list is not WWF, he's an All Japan undercarder I *think*.

[Guest mathbrat]

In what seems a vain attempt to steer this topic back to its original theme...

 

It is possible to cater to the smarks AND the marks- you don't have to go to one extreme or another.

 

Smarks like (in general):

 

-cruiserweight matches

 

-more focus on pure wrestlers

 

-longer matches

 

-wrestlers who they like getting pushed

 

-less backstage action

 

marks like (in general):

 

-catchphrases

 

-T&A

 

-big wrestlers and power moves

 

-dynamic finishers (Stunner, Last Ride, Rock Bottom)

 

I admit this is overgeneralizing AND oversimplifying, but still these viewpoints can be reconciled. Just have one cruiser match a card, a couple ten minute matchs, ONE monologue to set up the night's card, an that will solve several problems right there.

[Guest]

I don't wanna get back into this subject too much again, but I don't think Storm was ever trying to say "fans should be seen & not heard."

Storm comes off as a rather engaging fellow, but I didn't like the tone of the article that came with the criticism of the list.

 

Storm's "only workers or folks in the industry can rate workers" philosophy burned holes through my eyes.  

 

Is he trying to say that I, as a fan, have no clue when it comes to what I am watching, nor do I have room to comment on what I like, or don't like, because I am not a worker?

 

That's pure rubbish, & a bit surprising coming from a man that used to be in ECW, where nearly every fan was a smark & could call spots better than the guys in the ring.

 

I certainly know a horrible match, or a blown spot when I see one.

 

Engaging or not, Storm's hidden message in his critique of the rankings is for all fans to be nice rubes & buy into the kayfabe.

 

I do believe that pro-wrestling has surpassed pro football as the sports / entertainment collective that secretly (& sometimes openly) cultivates & nourishes outright disdain for the fans that buy tickets.

[Guest Ripper]

My point wasnt' that they can put what ever on the list they wanted.  My whole thing was with Brians comments about how they made him look like a ass.  The DV guys are alot more qualified to rank wrestlers than me.  They certainly watch alot more than me and probably know more.  But I was pointing out how idiotic it is to try and tell a wrestler "We're right and you have no idea what you're talking about in wrestling."   The guy lives and breaths wrestling.  These guys have other jobs that have nothing to do with the sport.  Lance's life is wrestling.  

 

I'm not even sure if Lance is exactly right, but I see where he is coming from.  I look at that list and look at the guys I have seen work and I see some ridiculous things on there.  But a match is a drawn out performace with differenct restrictions put on some (WWF) wrestlers.  I would take exception if I saw someone that was widely not considered a great worker by wrestlers being called a better worker than someone more deserving.  

 

I think there is a huge difference between being a better entertainer in the ring and a better worker.

[Guest]

The DV guys are alot more qualified to rank wrestlers than me.  They certainly watch alot more than me and probably know more.  But I was pointing out how idiotic it is to try and tell a wrestler "We're right and you have no idea what you're talking about in wrestling."   The guy lives and breaths wrestling.  These guys have other jobs that have nothing to do with the sport.

 

I'm not saying that I don't agree with you, but I am saying that these yahoos have collectively viewed the matches of over 500 workers in some form or fashion.

 

That speaks volumes.

 

Not actually having jobs in the industry seems more of a footnote than a handicap:  these guys seem to know there stuff, even though their opinoins show a huge amount of bias towards Japanese & East Coast indie workers.

 

The healthiest way to approach this is to note that the DVDVR 500 is  "The World According to...", & represents whom the guys that run the site feel is the top 500 workers:  it is not a ranking of who may actually be on top.

 

Of course, what does their opinion matter anyway?  It's not like anyone even has to agree with them, & griping about the list helps to legitimize it.  Why bother critiquing something that has little, if any, significance?  Bringing attention to it makes it a benchmark.

 

I'm not even sure if Lance is exactly right, but I see where he is coming from.  I look at that list and look at the guys I have seen work and I see some ridiculous things on there.  But a match is a drawn out performace with differenct restrictions put on some (WWF) wrestlers.  I would take exception if I saw someone that was widely not considered a great worker by wrestlers being called a better worker than someone more deserving.

 

As far as taking exception goes, Storm needs to swallow more grains of salt.  He also needs to turn in better performances, since it seems that he cannot even perform a missed clothesline spot these days.

 

WWF (WWE now, I suppose) workers, as you mentioned, work under severe handicaps & dummy down their matches for the rank & file fans, but the Angle V. Benoit matches showed that some fans can get into well worked matches also.  I would argue that the WWE bookers have just as much blame in the deterioration of the North American Wrestling match as the fans do, because the bookers do not reinforce their matches with notable in-ring psychology or meaningful & progressive spots.

 

Long interviews do not count as "psychology": they are a waste of time.

 

Tell the story in the ring.

 

The 500 is a list by smarks & for smarks:  Storm needs to get some thicker skin & work on his moveset.  

 

I think there is a huge difference between being a better entertainer in the ring and a better worker.

 

I would hope that there wouldn't be a difference at all:  a worker should have a competant moveset, as well as be able to draw heat, or make the crowd pop.

 

The fact that such disticnctions can be made is a signal that something is certainly wrong.

[Guest]

As far as taking exception goes, Storm needs to swallow more grains of salt.  He also needs to turn in better performances, since it seems that he cannot even perform a missed clothesline spot these days.

 

Tell the story in the ring.

 

The 500 is a list by smarks & for smarks:  Storm needs to get some thicker skin & work on his moveset.  

How Can Storm turn in better matches when only given 2 minutes?

 

What missed Clothesline spots are talking about?

 

Given enough time, Storm can tell a better story them most.

 

Did you not see the Tag Match on smackdown?

 

Also, you think Storm should become a steroid freak like Triple H but at the same time you say he should have a better Move Set? Um, Okay?

 

I have NEVER seen anything wrong with Storm's move set, btw

[Guest Brian]

Thicker skin = don't let it get under his skin

 

Clear that up for you fearhavoc.

[Guest]

How Can Storm turn in better matches when only given 2 minutes?

 

By wrestling.

 

What missed Clothesline spots are talking about?

 

Lance has had several spotty moments:  too many to mention, but I will review my tapes & give an example.

 

BTW, the sign that the back room knows that you are spotty, is that you start working feuds with guys you've had previous matches with.

 

*cough* Hugh Morris *cough*

 

Given enough time, Storm can tell a better story them most.

 

Not by much.

 

Also, it doesn't look like Lance has earned enough of a rub to get a push, so that he can have more ring time.  He's gone from I-C champ to working programs in the low card.

 

Storm is wrestling like a guy that wants to be sent to OVW or HCW like Mark Henry did.

 

Did you not see the Tag Match on smackdown?

 

Yep & they weren't too bad.

 

Tag matches have been Lance's staple, though. (Candido, Awesome, Credible)  He can do much better than that, & apparently he chose not to.

 

At least he doesn't mail in his finishes like Buff Bagwell did.

 

(does?)

 

Also, you think Storm should become a steroid freak like Triple H but at the same time you say he should have a better Move Set? Um, Okay?

 

???

 

Check your colloquial expressions; I never said that.

 

I have NEVER seen anything wrong with Storm's move set, btw

 

Not even during his ECW days?  I remember the crowd chanting the dreaded "You fsked up!!" many times after a "Lance Storm" blown spot.

 

Storm is as fundamentally sound as they come, but he can get rather spotty at times, & that makes his moveset look questionable.

 

If you can't hit a move & make it look clean, don't do it.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

Storm deserves to drop down the list after getting accidentally pinned by Funaki.