Faces vs Heels in wreslting ability

[Guest wildpegasus]

I imagine I'm not the only one who noticed this. There's not 1 wrestler on the entire Raw heel roster that's truly great or even very good. Meanwhile on the face side we have Jericho, Benoit, Benjamin, Edge, Michaels and Regal who are all worth watching. That's pretty lopsided and it's a big problem because heels are an extreamly important part of match quality. It's why a lot of the wrestling is not as good as it could possably be. Of course the WWE style is a hinderance too. But the way the face/heel structure is set up right now limits the quality of matches that can be produced in comparison to say if the face/heel structure was mixed up a little better. This is the reason why I left the last PPV early and the reason why I've only been watching 20 minutes of Raw the last few weeks. There are no truly great matches that can be made the way things are right now.

 

Comments?

[Lil' Bitch 0]

I dunno, the general feeling I get is So and so is too bland and / or boring as a face yet is 100 times better as a heel. According to most posts on here, it applies to 75% of the roster.

[Australian Pride 0]

In the right environment, Christian is a very good worker. If WWE told him to just cut loose I think he would stop doing so many restholds and be a top class performer.

 

Rob Conway is also very good, but is stuck in the La Res gimmick, where he has the tag titles, but not much more.

 

HHH can go when sufficiently motivated.

 

Yeah, that's about all Raw has going for it in terms of pure wrestling heels. Edge will be heel soon though.

[Guest Coffey]

WWE isn't about putting on wrestling clinics to entertain the "Smarks." They're about making money. Seeing as how they're still making money, you can't really expect DRASTIC changes.

 

Raw seems content on having Evolution & Kane as the top heels. Triple H can beat anyone...especially with the help from Ric Flair & Batistia. Kane, despite his match record, is always a threat and seen as a monster.

 

Then you throw in a couple of midcard heels, like La Résistance and Christian, whom can win at any time because they're cheaters...and it seems pretty balanced to me.

 

The problem is the matches get made for, really, no reason. Instead of throwing a couple people in a feud that lasts for awhile and builds interest, things get rushed. Storylines gets meshed, and you end up with 6-man tags on free TV.

 

Then WWE goes and slow builds shit that no one wants to watch while all the matches that would be entertaining are played out thanks to four weeks of Raw pre-PPV which is nothing but run-in, ref bumps, etc. in tag matches. Come PPV time, you really can't expect to see anything that you haven't already seen for free...and you really don't care who wins anymore.

 

That's the problem.

[Guest Loss]

The heels are expected to carry the offensive portion of the match, guide the nearfalls and comebacks and take the most bumps. There's a certain amount of stooging, selling and effort that's required in that role that few are able to do. The problem is that in 2004, the fanbase recognizes talent and effort more than they have in the past, and as a result, the best workers are turned babyface through sheer will of the audience. Is that because we haven't had a heel that's been allowed to cut loose in a long time and give the audience a reason to hate him or is it because the art of playing a good heel is one that's dying? I think it's a little bit of both.

 

Despite HHH being the biggest star and most pushed wrestler in the company, WWE is traditionally a babyface's paradise, if only because wrestlers are paid based on the amount of merchandise they sell and that structure is one that caters more to the faces than the heels. It's always been a problem, and it's that system that spawned the "cool heel" that neutered the traditional white bread babyfaces over time. No one wants the crowd to hate him too much, because his pay will be severely affected because of it.

 

As far as the current RAW roster, I think there are some major role reversals, talent elevations and de-elevations, and creative overhauls that are LONG overdue, all of which would affect everything that we see from the matches to the promos to the announcing to the presentation of the show.

 

If a wrestler is charismatic or if he's a strong worker, it's often hard to keep him a heel. We've seen it happen with Chris Jericho, Rob Van Dam, Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero and Booker T over the past few years. So how do you make the audience respect someone's standing and still hate him? That's a good question, and I'm not sure what the answer is. The 2004 audience seems to identify with winners who say they're going to do something and then go do it. By this standard, Evolution is a group of faces. They're not particularly heelish because all they're doing is making promises and delivering. What is there to hate about that?

 

The top heels at this point on RAW are Evolution, Christian, Kane and La Resistance. HHH is actually a decent worker, but he has convinced himself that he's a great worker, and thus, everyone on the roster is being forced to work the style that he works. It not only negates the strengths of other wrestlers on the roster, but it also takes away any individuality HHH may have had. Batista is a good monster and has improved greatly over the past few months, but there still isn't much reason to feel much for him. He dominates, so what is our reaction supposed to be to that? Are we supposed to hate him for it or love him for it? And when he's in control in his matches, are we supposed to root for his opponent to come back and be scared that the good guy's chances of winning are slim? If so, that sense or urgency and disbelief is largely missing from his overall presentation. He's not really the devil, so the angel isn't really an angel either. You could say the same for Ric Flair. His biggest comedy spots get pops and he's respected as a legend. He's been a top guy on national television since wrestling has been happening on national television, and he's too respected to be hated, no matter who he sneak attacks. He's also associated with a group of winners.

 

Christian is another decent worker who is actually better than he's given credit for at getting the crowd riled up against him. He's done a good job of sidestepping a few babyface turns, and he's been lucky to be programmed against Jericho for most of the past year, a guy who the audience loves. Now, he's entering a program with Shawn Michaels that I expect to be solid, but not earth shattering, and that's unfortunate. I think the reason for that is that Christian is a heel not because he's a threat, but because he's a nuisance. That works in some ways, but it's still half-assed, because he could be a much bigger nuisance than he is. I'd blame that more on the booking than I would him.

 

Kane is so happy all the time lately and gets cheered more than he gets booed. He's imposing and the audience takes him seriously, but the audience also knows that he's never going to affect anything above or below him. He's the most stagnant wrestler on the roster. He'll always come close to wreaking havoc, but he'll remain all talk for the most part. His character has been neutered in many ways, and again, I blame that on the booking of his character. Kane is destructive and intimidating, and he's presented as a dangerous guy, but he's almost a JTTS in some ways, as they'd never job anyone to him that they had any sort of serious plans for in the future. Because he's so dominant, which is apparently a likable characteristic these days, you don't hear him getting booed much. He's feared, but his impact is minimal. The audience has picked up on that with him by this point.

 

La Resistance are heels in the cheapest way imaginable, but so were the New Age Outlaws in their formative days as a tag team. The difference is that they made no qualms about Road Dogg and Gunn being any good -- they were cheaters who had titles they didn't deserve and were mediocre wrestlers at best who were finding a way to squeak by with a victory. It worked because there was reason to care. They were programmed opposite the always-over and totally established Road Warriors and they were given key angles with guys like Mick Foley and Terry Funk to make them seem important. They also had the rub from occasionally hanging out with Shawn and HHH when those two comprised DX. The reason La Res is failing to really make waves is because their entire presentation is to 1985-ish and there's nothing raw or real about them. I'd venture to say that most of the audience doesn't know French Canadians who constantly make fun of America, and as a result they're cartoon characters more than they are despicable heels. We've also never gotten any promos from Rob Conway to fully establish *why* he's a French sympathizer, and if they've done it, they haven't really driven the point home. La Res can only go so far, and their problems are all over the place. Grenier is mediocre and Conway's charisma is masked in many ways by being in such a weird role for him. There's also the issue that tag teams rarely affect anything on a bigger scale, so the audience doesn't have much reason to care if they win or lose. Of course, when they do manage to develop a chase and get a team over like Rhyno and Taijiri, they job them out in the culmination of that chase. The next night, things are exactly as they were before.

 

Eric Bischoff isn't doing the heels any favors. We only know that some people are bad on RAW and some are good, but we don't really know the motivations most of them have for being bad people, Bischoff included. I mean, yeah, we do to an extent, but it's not really pushed hard or driven home all that much. We don't know why Bischoff is so insistent on being an asshole, or why he'd rather have Evolution controlling all the belts than anyone else. The heels aren't human, they're just jerks without rhyme or reason and that prompts more of an "fine, I don't give a shit about you" reaction than a "wow, I hate you and I want you to lose all of your matches" reaction. At least that's the response it gets out of me.

 

I think that's why it took Randy Orton so long to get any reaction as a heel. It wasn't because he wasn't taken seriously, as the Foley feud solidified him as someone important. It was because his character wasn't one that the audience had any reason to care about. He attacks legends. So what? How does he feel about the fans? Why does he feel that way? Why is it that being a champion is important to him?

 

Too many questions and not nearly enough answers. And the problems with heels are so multi-layered that I don't know if I could accurately surmise them all.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

[The Tino Standard 0]

Great points, Loss.

 

The fact is, people now don't cheer for the same things and ideals they did when the general "heel/babyface" formula developed in the days of territorial wrestling. Fans are smarter and edgier now.

 

WWE has two problems: Hollywood writers that don't understand the basic principles of pro wrestling, and agents that are former wrestlers who are TOO hung up on thos principles.

 

The result is that you have guys get over as heels because they do things that appeal to the modern crowd. The bookers see these guys getting cheered, so they try to capitalize by turning them face. But once the wrestlers turn face, they magically turned into watered-down, generic babyfaces, and they stop doing everything that got them over in the first place.

 

You'd think they'd understand this, especially considering their biggest draw of the modern era, Stone Cold Steve Austin, worked best as a face by doing all heelish things.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

We've also never gotten any promos from Rob Conway to fully establish *why* he's a French sympathizer

 

You have to buy the new RAW magazine.

[Guest CronoT]

Great points, Loss.

 

The fact is, people now don't cheer for the same things and ideals they did when the general "heel/babyface" formula developed in the days of territorial wrestling. Fans are smarter and edgier now.

 

WWE has two problems: Hollywood writers that don't understand the basic principles of pro wrestling, and agents that are former wrestlers who are TOO hung up on thos principles.

 

The result is that you have guys get over as heels because they do things that appeal to the modern crowd. The bookers see these guys getting cheered, so they try to capitalize by turning them face. But once the wrestlers turn face, they magically turned into watered-down, generic babyfaces, and they stop doing everything that got them over in the first place.

 

You'd think they'd understand this, especially considering their biggest draw of the modern era, Stone Cold Steve Austin, worked best as a face by doing all heelish things.

Steve Austin got over as a face because he had the James Dean appeal. Everyone was always out to get him, so he had to get to them first. Also, his boss, Vince, was an asshole to him, and treated him like shit. A lot of the "working class stiffs" could relate to that, so they cheered him when he got the best of McMahon, because it made them feel like they could get the best of their bosses, existentially.

[Enigma 0]

Yes, that was really the entire appeal to Austin.

 

Austin had a cult-following for a bit, but didn't explode into a marketing phenomenon until the Mr. McMahon stuff started. All the middle-class people saw him beat the shit out of his boss every week, and they lived vicariously through that.

 

However, in true WWE fashion, they had to completely ride the wave even after there was no wave left, and it went on and on so much where people got tired of it. Kind of like WCW's version of the nWo.

[AndrewTS 0]

Yes, that was really the entire appeal to Austin.

 

Austin had a cult-following for a bit, but didn't explode into a marketing phenomenon until the Mr. McMahon stuff started. All the middle-class people saw him beat the shit out of his boss every week, and they lived vicariously through that.

 

However, in true WWE fashion, they had to completely ride the wave even after there was no wave left, and it went on and on so much where people got tired of it. Kind of like WCW's version of the nWo.

They're STILL riding it.

 

Lessee...evil heel authority figure, rebellious face...matches being booked to screw over face, etc.

[The Tino Standard 0]

All those points are true, but it doesn't change their fundamental problem: Every time they have a heel get over, they turn him face and have him completely change his act to do 'what a babyface should do.' The character becomes generic, vanilla, milquetoast babyface No. 138 and then they wonder why that wrestler's heat magically disappears.

[Guest Big Daddy V1]

All those points are true, but it doesn't change their fundamental problem: Every time they have a heel get over, they turn him face and have him completely change his act to do 'what a babyface should do.' The character becomes generic, vanilla, milquetoast babyface No. 138 and then they wonder why that wrestler's heat magically disappears.

It's sad but true as the bookers need to learn that if a wrestler is doing well as a heel, leave him be. I mean, why fix what isn't broken?

[Guest SteveyP93]

Jericho is a much better worker when he's a face, though. When he's a heel, he uses a lot of restholds to avoid being cheered. When he's a face, he really turns it up a notch on offense.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I agree with eveyone on Pegasus Kid's list, and I would def. add Orton to that list. Hell even Tajiri Ryhno and Matt Hardy (when healthy) are good workers. Christian is boring, Batista is still green, HHH is very overrated even on this board. Its not good.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Jericho is a much better worker when he's a face, though. When he's a heel, he uses a lot of restholds to avoid being cheered. When he's a face, he really turns it up a notch on offense.

His best WWF/E singles match was as a heel, (vs. Rock at No Mercy 2001).

[Guest Rrrsh]

No, his best match was as a face (2001 RR ladder match v. Benoit)