More from the middle east

[Guest DrTom]

"Do you honestly believe every Muslim in the world hates you and what you represent?  Are you that naive to believe that a group of people will share one concrete opinion?"

 

It would be easier to think they didn't all hate us if some of them would actually say something to the contrary every now and then.  But between the Great Satan speeches, flag burnings, and general kill-in-the-name-of-Allah bullshit, I haven't heard anyone come out and condemn the Muslim extremists while supporting the US.

 

"It would be great if you people in your privelaged positions would show the rest of the world a little more respect, because then the world would show you some respect and not feel it necessary to fling suicide bombers and hijacked airplanes in your direction."

 

Respect is a two-way street, and it must be earned.  If a country doesn't respect us, why should we respect them?  We play nice, we give them aid, we make good diplomatic gestures, and we get pissed on for it.  The hell with it; it's just not worth the aggravation anymore.  Let the ingrates starve and kill each other.  We can spend the money we'd otherwise be wasting on them on improving things in our own country.

 

As for the second part of your statement, I seriously doubt anyone flew planes in our buildings because we dissed them.  If you actually believe that, then there are no words available to properly express how naive and stupid that opinion is.

 

"I'm sick and as unwilling to listen to your same old responses as you are unwilling to listen to anything I say."

 

We're willing to listen to you, Chris.  We're just unwilling to follow you down the Yellow Brick Road, into the land of happy puppies, blooming trees, and buttered scones.

 

"All I can say is that you guys claim to be thinking for yourselves here, but are you?  Or are you just spewing back out the information you recieve and preceive to be nothing but the truth?"

 

By the same logic, are you thinking for yourself?  Maybe you're just regurgitating the information you receive and perceive to be nothing but the truth, albeit from a much different source than the rest of us.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

-It's funny Mike that you are such an intelligent guy, and you lump every Muslim together with terrorists using Islam as a weapon in their agenda of power.  Do you honestly believe every Muslim in the world hates you and what you represent?

 

 

When people discuss the Crusades and how bad they were, does anybody complain when they criticize Christianity for its role?

 

No, they don't.

 

Why do I lump Muslims together?

 

Because, darn it to heck, Muslims seem very unwilling to flat-out condemn ANYTHING other Muslims do. Just about every atrocity committed by the Muslim church is equivocated away by other Muslims.>>>

 

-Is this a concrete fact, or just the way you see things?  To answer Marney's question, no, I've never been to the Middle East, but I have to believe that there is not 100% support for a Jihad out there.  Then again, that's just the way I perceive things, and who knows whether it's safer to percieve every Muslim as a threat or just the ones blinded by hate.  If you were to hold a mirror to your post, you would see that just about every "atrocity" committed by American forces is equivocated away by a lot of other Americans, but there are also a good deal of Americans who don't see the point in answering hatred with hatred.  Despite all you hear from the people in charge, the world is not black-and-white.  It's far more complicated, indeed too complicated, and by seperating everything into "good" and "evil", we take the easy but very painful way out.  Let's not worry about the Muslims.  Let's worry about the terrorists within the Muslim world who feed these people the wrong information about what we represent and cause people on our side to wrongly condemn every Muslim as anti-American.

 

<<Are you that naive to believe that a group of people will share one concrete opinion?  Even if it's a majority, you have to realize that these people are being fed the same bullshit we're being fed to keep us crazy with hate and bloodlust (and there are plenty of examples in this thread) because hate and bloodlust is what makes money in this world.

 

 

Incorrect. We are given both sides of the story. They are not. They're not even given one side, quite frankly.

 

And, honestly, it doesn't matter WHY they think like they do. The fact that they DO is the important issue here. You say not all Palestinians support suicide bombers and Arafat's reign?

 

Then why does NOBODY criticize? There's not even an inkling of an underground anti-Arafat movement in Palestine. It's no different than Nazi Germany. Did ALL Germans support Hitler? No---but the VAST majority of them did until the very end.>>>

 

-Well, I seem to remember that major Arab news network (whose name I forget) giving ample time to both Dubbya and Osama in the wake of 9-11.  That may just be an isolated example, but come on, Mike, the Muslim world isn't that primitive.  It's very easy for people across the world to get access to all kinds of information and opinions.  Besides, it's not exactly like we're given both sides of the story and told to choose between which one best suits us.  We are told what's "good" and what's "evil" and if you don't agree with that, then you are perceived as being a terrorist or on the side of the terrorists.  Same thing goes on in the Muslim world, but it's just flipped around.  As for the lack of an anti-Arafat movement, don't the suicide bombers count?  They aren't exactly being ordered directly by Arafat are they?  A lot of people here seem to realize that Arafat isn't the problem.  He's just a hopeless pawn who no one listens to.  The problem is the attitudes and beliefs that lead to events like 9-11 and suicide bombings, and there's plenty of criticism for that.

 

As for the example of Nazi Germany, we see the fundamental facet of fascism, in that the majority of the public must be fooled into a total faith for the people in power.  It exists in the Muslim world, and I dare say it exists to an extent here. Your example is correct in every way, and I add to that by saying that I believe there are those in Palestine who want this conflict to end, only because they are the victims of the terrorists who claim to represent them, and they are the victims of the backlash that occurs when these terrorists act.  It's very hard to get an anti-Arafat movement off the ground when you have to worry about surviving every moment of the day.

 

<<<Do I respect the rest of the world?

 

By and large, no.

 

Then again, what has the rest of the world done to WARRANT respect?>>>

 

-Nothing good will ever come from that attitude, and it's this general lack of respect that is the source of all conflict in this world.  

 

<<<-It's hard for me to believe the West is better when the bloodlust is just as intense here.  This thread proves that point very clearly. >>>

 

 

World of difference between our STATEMENTS of bloodlust and those monkeys ACTS of bloodlust.

                                 -=Mike>>>

 

-This is true in a literal sense, but there is no fundamental difference in the attitudes and beliefs behind the STATEMENTS and the ACTS.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<Respect is a two-way street, and it must be earned.  If a country doesn't respect us, why should we respect them?  We play nice, we give them aid, we make good diplomatic gestures, and we get pissed on for it.  The hell with it; it's just not worth the aggravation anymore.  Let the ingrates starve and kill each other.  We can spend the money we'd otherwise be wasting on them on improving things in our own country.

 

As for the second part of your statement, I seriously doubt anyone flew planes in our buildings because we dissed them.  If you actually believe that, then there are no words available to properly express how naive and stupid that opinion is.>>>

 

-I agree very much with the first part of your statement.  We do need to leave the rest of the world alone, espiecally the part where the money we are spending on dealing with them (military expenditures) could be used for seven billion better things in our own country (with education being the best example I can think of).  Easier said than done, though.  

 

And no Doc, I'm not that naive.  9-11 did happen because of one simple reason, and that reason is hatred, but the reasons and motives for that hatred are far more complex than most people realize.

 

 

<<<I'm sick and as unwilling to listen to your same old responses as you are unwilling to listen to anything I say."

 

We're willing to listen to you, Chris.  We're just unwilling to follow you down the Yellow Brick Road, into the land of happy puppies, blooming trees, and buttered scones.>>>

 

-Damn, there's buttered scones?  How did I miss that?

 

<<<"All I can say is that you guys claim to be thinking for yourselves here, but are you?  Or are you just spewing back out the information you recieve and preceive to be nothing but the truth?"

 

By the same logic, are you thinking for yourself?  Maybe you're just regurgitating the information you receive and perceive to be nothing but the truth, albeit from a much different source than the rest of us.>>>

 

-Hey, I agree.  I don't think anyone is safe from the opinions of others.  I just happen to think the information I perceive to be true might leave this world a lot better off than the information you percieve to be true.  The fact is that no can lay claim to the truth, and only history will truly reveal what is there.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<It's funny Mike that you are such an intelligent guy, and you lump every Muslim together with terrorists using Islam as a weapon in their agenda of power.  Do you honestly believe every Muslim in the world hates you and what you represent?

 

 

When people discuss the Crusades and how bad they were, does anybody complain when they criticize Christianity for its role?

 

No, they don't.

 

Why do I lump Muslims together?

 

Because, darn it to heck, Muslims seem very unwilling to flat-out condemn ANYTHING other Muslims do. Just about every atrocity committed by the Muslim church is equivocated away by other Muslims.>>>

 

-Is this a concrete fact, or just the way you see things?>>>

 

 

Concrete fact. I've YET to see a single Muslim condemn the suicide bombers without mentioning how Israel is probably to blame anyway.

 

 

<<<To answer Marney's question, no, I've never been to the Middle East, but I have to believe that there is not 100% support for a Jihad out there.  Then again, that's just the way I perceive things, and who knows whether it's safer to percieve every Muslim as a threat or just the ones blinded by hate.  If you were to hold a mirror to your post, you would see that just about every "atrocity" committed by American forces is equivocated away by a lot of other Americans, but there are also a good deal of Americans who don't see the point in answering hatred with hatred.>>>

 

 

Americans are more willing than most to express disgust at our own actions. I can JUSTIFY what happened at My Lai in Vietnam---it was still condemned here. I can JUSTIFY the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki---it still gets condemned here.

 

 

<<<Despite all you hear from the people in charge, the world is not black-and-white.  It's far more complicated, indeed too complicated, and by seperating everything into "good" and "evil", we take the easy but very painful way out.>>>

 

 

There is good and there is evil. To go with "The world is shades of gray" argument is incorrect.

 

 

<<<Let's not worry about the Muslims.  Let's worry about the terrorists within the Muslim world who feed these people the wrong information about what we represent and cause people on our side to wrongly condemn every Muslim as anti-American.>>>

 

 

You mean the GOVERNMENTS of ALL of the countries?

 

Them?

 

 

<<Are you that naive to believe that a group of people will share one concrete opinion?  Even if it's a majority, you have to realize that these people are being fed the same bullshit we're being fed to keep us crazy with hate and bloodlust (and there are plenty of examples in this thread) because hate and bloodlust is what makes money in this world.

 

 

Incorrect. We are given both sides of the story. They are not. They're not even given one side, quite frankly.

 

And, honestly, it doesn't matter WHY they think like they do. The fact that they DO is the important issue here. You say not all Palestinians support suicide bombers and Arafat's reign?

 

Then why does NOBODY criticize? There's not even an inkling of an underground anti-Arafat movement in Palestine. It's no different than Nazi Germany. Did ALL Germans support Hitler? No---but the VAST majority of them did until the very end.>>>

 

 

<<<-Well, I seem to remember that major Arab news network (whose name I forget) giving ample time to both Dubbya and Osama in the wake of 9-11.>>>

 

 

Al-Jazeera?

 

Chris, you can't POSSIBLY be serious here. The "network" was viewed as a joke in terms of "openness" by even CNN---hardly the most jingoistic, pro-American news network.

 

 

<<<That may just be an isolated example, but come on, Mike, the Muslim world isn't that primitive.>>>

 

 

Yes, it is.

 

 

<<<It's very easy for people across the world to get access to all kinds of information and opinions.>>>

 

 

How? Not by TV. When ANYBODY tries to start non-government run radio stations, the gov't cracks down on them. Books? Not even close.

 

It is a TOTALLY closed society.

 

Just to give you an idea---Iraqis were legitimately STUNNED when they surrendered at the end of the Gulf War. They TRULY felt they were WINNING the war.

 

Why?

 

Because the gov't told them so and there was no alternative voice.

 

 

<<<Besides, it's not exactly like we're given both sides of the story and told to choose between which one best suits us.>>>

 

 

Yes, we are.

 

 

<<<We are told what's "good" and what's "evil" and if you don't agree with that, then you are perceived as being a terrorist or on the side of the terrorists.  Same thing goes on in the Muslim world, but it's just flipped around.>>>

 

 

Don't even begin to equate the American press with the Muslim press.

 

I'm trying to give you credit for having a legitimate opinion---but if you TRULY believe that the Muslim press isn't MARKEDLY worse than the American press, then you're a lost cause.

 

Keep in mind that the "alternative" press that I imagine you so adore DOESN'T EXIST in the Middle East.

 

At all.

 

 

<<<As for the lack of an anti-Arafat movement, don't the suicide bombers count?>>>

 

 

No. They do it because Yassir orders them to do so.

 

 

<<<They aren't exactly being ordered directly by Arafat are they?>>>

 

 

Yes, they are.

 

 

<<<A lot of people here seem to realize that Arafat isn't the problem.  He's just a hopeless pawn who no one listens to.  The problem is the attitudes and beliefs that lead to events like 9-11 and suicide bombings, and there's plenty of criticism for that.>>>

 

 

In Israel, Arafat IS the main problem

 

 

<<<As for the example of Nazi Germany, we see the fundamental facet of fascism, in that the majority of the public must be fooled into a total faith for the people in power.  It exists in the Muslim world, and I dare say it exists to an extent here.>>>

 

 

You'd be TOTALLY inaccurate with the ending of your last sentence.

 

 

<<<Your example is correct in every way, and I add to that by saying that I believe there are those in Palestine who want this conflict to end, only because they are the victims of the terrorists who claim to represent them, and they are the victims of the backlash that occurs when these terrorists act.  It's very hard to get an anti-Arafat movement off the ground when you have to worry about surviving every moment of the day.>>>

 

 

There wasn't a thriving anti-Arafat movement during the several years of "peace" before the intifada.

 

 

<<<Do I respect the rest of the world?

 

By and large, no.

 

Then again, what has the rest of the world done to WARRANT respect?

 

-Nothing good will ever come from that attitude, and it's this general lack of respect that is the source of all conflict in this world.>>>

 

 

The world refused to stop Hitler.

 

The world, outside of the U.S and Britain, are ready to completely abandon Israel so as to not piss off the Arab states.

 

The world has racism and anti-Semitism that makes anything in this country look like a friendly game of "tag".

 

Until the world does something to warrant respect, they will get none from me.

 

WE are the better country. We're more free, more fair, more tolerant, more willing to allow dissent, more prosperous, and more concerned with the well-being of the world than anybody else.

 

 

<<<-It's hard for me to believe the West is better when the bloodlust is just as intense here.  This thread proves that point very clearly. >>>

 

 

World of difference between our STATEMENTS of bloodlust and those monkeys ACTS of bloodlust.

                                -=Mike

 

-This is true in a literal sense, but there is no fundamental difference in the attitudes and beliefs behind the STATEMENTS and the ACTS. >>>

 

 

There is a WORLD of difference.

 

I can say I want you dead(I don't)

 

If somebody else decided to actually KILL you---would ANYBODY say that I'm no better than the other guy?

 

We won't do what I want to do. I can express my anger at the situation all day long and nobody will die due to it.

                              -=Mike

[Guest]

To answer Marney's question, no, I've never been to the Middle East, but I have to believe that there is not 100% support for a Jihad out there

I've lived in the Middle East for several years, Chris. Obviously here isn't 100% support for jihad out there; there never is, for anything, in any country.

But yes, many people in the Middle East do see Americans in an extremely negative light. Either through ignorant or wrongheaded contempt for our lifestyle, or envy of it, or hatred for what they think we've taken away from them. The minority that admires us and realises that their part of the world should learn from our economic, legislative, and political models is very small.

You say we're stereotyping Moslems and that we're ignorant. I can tell you from direct experience that Moslems are far more ignorant, and far more willing to stereotype us, than vice versa. They will talk about the humiliation of the Ottoman Empire as if it happened yesterday - they're very like the Japanese in that regard. Many still consider the Crusades a personal affront to them, perpetrated not by your ancestors or mine, but by us. Even those who aren't completely brainwashed (which is still, fortunately, a majority in most places) nevertheless tend to be quite ignorant as a result of the omnipresent media censorship.

Please try to get some direct experience of the culture and the people you're defending. You might be able to acknowledge your errors more readily that way.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Mike, I happened to catch the tail end of Frontline on PBS last night, and they were detailing the pro-democracy movement that exists in Iran.  Basically, 9-11 and the resultant "Axis of Evil" comment from Dubbya has done a lot to hurt this movement, as support that this movement could've received is now squarely in the hands of the fundamentalist gov't in Iran.  It was interesting to see that weekly prayer meetings in Iran had seen only 1/3 of the public (mostly older people, as the democracy movement is largely led by students) attending, and it was also interesting to see that anti-American sentiment that had been discouraged at political rallies before 9-1, was now being embraced in light of the "Axis of Evil" comment.  What's my point?

1. PBS rocks

2. Mike, you claim that the Muslim world, of which Iran is at the center of, are too primitive and repressed to realize the benefits of democracy.  What I saw last night showed me that Muslim society is not as cut-and-dry as you percieve it, or at least it wasn't as cut-and-dry before 9-11.  The fact of the matter is that there is a desire for democratic reform, and that a good number of people want to get away from the kind of religious politics that give the Muslim world such a bad reputation.   It's unfortunate that the kind of war hysteria gripping the Muslim world today is drowning this desire for reform.  We have to realize that it is not the Muslim people who are the problem, or even Islam itself.  It is the attitudes and beliefs that lead to blind fundametalist hatred that must be addressed.  It was also said that the gov't of Iran needs anti-American sentiment to survive.  These fundamentalist govt's are the problem, not the Muslim people, for given the chance, these same people will embrace and have embraced the ideals we stand up for.   Like Marney pointed out, one shouldn't make generalizations about a group of people if don't have direct experience of what they experience.  I'm not sure if a PBS program counts, but it was definetly a bit of an eye-opener to the shades of grey in Muslim society.....

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Mike, I happened to catch the tail end of Frontline on PBS last night, and they were detailing the pro-democracy movement that exists in Iran.>>>

 

 

It exists and it OPPOSES the reign of Khatami (or whoever the heck is "President" of that undeveloped hellhole).

 

 

<<<Basically, 9-11 and the resultant "Axis of Evil" comment from Dubbya has done a lot to hurt this movement, as support that this movement could've received is now squarely in the hands of the fundamentalist gov't in Iran.>>>

 

 

That is absurd. The movement was in deep trouble regardless because the Muslim Church would have never ALLOWED them to possibly approach having power.

 

To say that the "axis of evil" comment (an accurate one, mind you) hurt the movement is absurd.

 

 

<<<It was interesting to see that weekly prayer meetings in Iran had seen only 1/3 of the public (mostly older people, as the democracy movement is largely led by students) attending, and it was also interesting to see that anti-American sentiment that had been discouraged at political rallies before 9-1, was now being embraced in light of the "Axis of Evil" comment.>>>

 

 

Actually, the government is STILL having a hard time getting a good anti-U.S rally together. Read conservative sites---this has been mentioned in many of 'em repeatedly for months now.

 

 

<<<What's my point?

1. PBS rocks>>>

 

 

PBS is a left-wing joke that deserves NO government funding. It's not the government's job to provide crappy programming.

 

 

<<<2. Mike, you claim that the Muslim world, of which Iran is at the center of, are too primitive and repressed to realize the benefits of democracy.  What I saw last night showed me that Muslim society is not as cut-and-dry as you percieve it, or at least it wasn't as cut-and-dry before 9-11.  The fact of the matter is that there is a desire for democratic reform, and that a good number of people want to get away from the kind of religious politics that give the Muslim world such a bad reputation.>>>

 

 

Good for them. Sadly, the church---which wields power---will never allow it to happen and, eventually, they will silence the students.

 

Until the government PERMITS dissent, it's not a legitimate government and revolution (especially if we aren't the ones doing the heavy lifting) isn't plausible.

 

 

<<<It's unfortunate that the kind of war hysteria gripping the Muslim world today is drowning this desire for reform.  We have to realize that it is not the Muslim people who are the problem, or even Islam itself.>>>

 

 

It's the church---though considering that just about off-shoot of Islam seems to have the same problems, it's not quite accurate to not say that Islam itself has no role here.

 

 

<<<It is the attitudes and beliefs that lead to blind fundametalist hatred that must be addressed.  It was also said that the gov't of Iran needs anti-American sentiment to survive.  These fundamentalist govt's are the problem, not the Muslim people, for given the chance, these same people will embrace and have embraced the ideals we stand up for.>>>

 

 

If they KNOW what we stand for. The people are fed a steady diet of anti-America, anti-Israel,---heck, anti-free world propaganda night in and night out.

 

 

<<<Like Marney pointed out, one shouldn't make generalizations about a group of people if don't have direct experience of what they experience.  I'm not sure if a PBS program counts>>>

 

 

It doesn't. Whatsoever.

 

 

<<<, but it was definetly a bit of an eye-opener to the shades of grey in Muslim society..... >>>

 

 

The shades of gray barely exist.

                 -=Mike

[Guest]

Like Marney pointed out, one shouldn't make generalizations about a group of people if don't have direct experience of what they experience.

Um, that's not what I said at all, Chris. I said you shouldn't talk about the motives and biases of Middle Eastern people if you've never been to the Middle East. What's relevant is that you have no direct experience of them, not that you haven't had the same experiences they have. I haven't had the same experiences they have, and I don't want to either. I still know a little more than you about what they're like.

 

It exists and it OPPOSES the reign of Khatami

True, Mike, but it only does so because he turned his back on it - the clerical establishment has final say in what happens, not the president. For what little it's worth he doesn't seem to be a bad chap, relatively speaking (he only exhorts his people to destroy America once or twice a month instead of once or twice a day).

Apart from that I agree completely that there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the "axis of evil" comment hurt any reform movement in any country. First of all, in the three countries named, there IS no credible reform movement. Iran is the least oppressive, and there the "revolutionaries" have zero chance of overthrowing the government. Zero. We can't hurt what doesn't exist. If the President fuelled anti-American sentiment, big deal. It's the equivalent of throwing a can of gasoline into ground zero of a nuclear blast. They all hate us already. So what if they have another excuse?

 

Chris, the solution isn't to sit around on our hands and moan, "Why do they hate us?" Really, who the fuck cares? Why does it matter? What we have to do is ensure that even those who hate the United States respect and fear us. As long as they understand that threatening us in any way, or harbouring those who threaten us, will lead to swift, lethal, and overwhelming military strikes, I couldn't care less what they think about America.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Quote  

It exists and it OPPOSES the reign of Khatami

 

True, Mike, but it only does so because he turned his back on it - the clerical establishment has final say in what happens, not the president. For what little it's worth he doesn't seem to be a bad chap, relatively speaking (he only exhorts his people to destroy America once or twice a month instead of once or twice a day).>>>

 

 

Considering that my knowledge of the Iranian political situation isn't terribly vast (then again, going with the other Arab states, it's not like there is much of a political situation to understand), I have a legit question:

 

IS Khatami a good guy?

 

After all, the Islamic Church DID have to allow him to run for him to become President and by most accounts, he isn't exactly opposed to censorship.

 

I have to ask: Is he REALLY any different than the other "leaders" of Iran, outside of him saying certain things that gets the underwear of the left all soiled with happiness? To me, he seems like just another despot who might be more than willing than some to make some mild criticisms of various groups like the Church---but when the chips are down, he'll behave just like all of the other two-bit dictators in that Godforsaken hellhole.

 

 

<<<Chris, the solution isn't to sit around on our hands and moan, "Why do they hate us?" Really, who the fuck cares? Why does it matter? What we have to do is ensure that even those who hate the United States respect and fear us. As long as they understand that threatening us in any way, or harbouring those who threaten us, will lead to swift, lethal, and overwhelming military strikes, I couldn't care less what they think about America.>>>

 

 

That's one of the cardinal sins of the left nowadays. Who gives a crap if ANYBODY likes us? It's not like there is ANYBODY on the horizon who has a chance in heck of competing with us. We're the 2,000 pound gorilla of the world.

 

Nobody can afford to boycott us. Saudi Arabia threatens to not sell us oil? Fine, don't sell us oil. See who gets the worse of THAT deal.

 

Nobody wants to be on our bad side. France may think we're a bunch of idiots, but they also recognize that if they get attacked by anybody, their military isn't quite the vicious opposing force they need to protect themselves. After all, as the joke goes, the Nazis were amazed to enter France to find the surrender papers already signed on a desk.

 

Why on Earth should we concern ourselves with worldwide opinion when, in the end, pissing off the world won't really hurt us anyway?

                    -=Mike

 

...I'm not saying pissing off the world is a good idea---but if we feel we need to do something that the world disagrees with us on, why should we care if they don't agree with us?

[Guest]

IS Khatami a good guy?

Fair question, and a tough one too.

I honestly couldn't tell you. What he's done so far - in the position he's in, both a Jefferson and a despot would have acted identically. He's in an impossible spot. Basically, Iran has a parliamentary system, with fairly sound judicial review (though the law is still ultimately based on the Sharia) and presidential oversight. Unfortunately, the Council of Guardians and the supreme religious leader are nevertheless the ultimate authorities - they can overrule any law, remove the president, declare anyone a counter-revolutionary, and imprison people without trial. It's a sham democracy. Khatami occasionally makes tentative moves towards giving the press guarantees of freedom, and the Council ignores them until the freedoms become inconvenient - and then they revoke in an hour what took him months to achieve.

Even so, my personal opinion is that he might be a good guy. It's somewhere between possible and probable; I'd be comfortable giving you 2 to 1 odds that he is. But that could be just because his predecessors have been so awful. I mean even Khamenei, the supreme religious leader, is almost palatable compared with Khomeini. They're both realists to a greater degree than their predecessors, and I get the feeling that if Khatami had the power, he'd be not only willing but eager to restore relations with the United States - he's tried, unofficially, twice now. Each time he's been forced to retreat by the Council of Guardians.

So, in short, we don't know. He hasn't had the opportunity to prove himself one way or another. If he defies the Council, he'll be removed and executed, that's certain. I can't fault him for not being suicidally brave, but I can't say for sure that he would have been willing to push harder if he were working under easier conditions, either.

 

Some more evidence that he might have sincerely creditable motivations: he covered for the mayor of Tehran as long as he possibly could, he's almost restored normal relations with much of Europe, including Germany, France, and the UK, and the Talibanesque morality police enforcing "virtue" on the citizens has all but disappeared in the last two decades. Literacy among women is almost 100%, and they're a significant part of the work force.

The upshot is that in social terms, Iran is quite a bit better than many of our "allies" in the region, such as Arabia and Jordan. I don't know if Khatami is directly responsible for all of that, but he certainly hasn't tried to block it.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Marney, I'm interested in hearing of the time you spent living in the Middle East and any anti-Western sentiment you personally encountered?

[Guest]

Sure Chris. I'll get to it tomorrow when I'm a little more sober.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

"PBS is a left-wing joke that deserves NO government funding. It's not the government's job to provide crappy programming."

 

Yeah, it's Hollywood's.

[Guest]

During the Gulf War, I was living in Pakistan. (Not precisely the Middle East, no, but usually more tolerant of Westerners than the Middle East - and thus an even better example.) I was attending the International (American) school there, and all expats had to have a "secure room" somewhere in their house, preferably in the basement, with a steel-reinforced door, supplies, and a cell phone. Why? Because there was ample evidence that the police were often delayed by and sometimes even collaborated with anti-Western elements in serious crises. A concrete example: one afternoon, while riding the bus back (it was about a half-hour trip back to the main city, forty-five minutes to my house) we were blocked by a huge mob (I'd guess several hundred, maybe a thousand) of people throwing stones and burning American flags. At an OBVIOUS SCHOOLBUS full of CHILDREN. Police cars milled around but did nothing, even when a bunch of protesters approached with huge torches and began to burn discarded tyres in front of the bus, threatening to set it on fire. Several windows were broken and we all hid under the seats because we could hear someone firing off an automatic rifle. (They often do that over there. It's as commonplace as clapping hands, and they do that for everything - weddings, funerals, just greeting people, everything.) No one wanted to be shot so we stayed out of sight and waited for the police to help. They didn't. Eventually the Embassy Marines came in and with the enforced help of the police dispersed the mob and let us continue. How long were we there? Over two hours. After that Daddy always sent a bulletproof car for me. Didn't help much in the next riot, though. Someone fired directly and continuously at the car. Eventually, the windshield shattered, and my driver was clipped in the shoulder. Again, we had to wait for the Marines.

(Say when.)

 

Islam forbids the slaughter of children? Yeah. Fucking. Right. They were willing to burn me and 50 other kids alive when we were barely 13. Islam is about peace and tolerance? Tell it to the women who get stoned to death for being raped. Tell it to the children who believe suicide bombings are their ticket to heaven. Tell it to the three thousand who died on September 11th. Go tell it to the wind. But don't tell it to me.