How good are the legends?

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Just how good are the legends of Japan? I was just thinking about that. They are legends but are they legends like Ric Flair in America or Hulk Hogan? Were they good workers? How do they stack up today? Here are a few I wanted to ask about.

 

-Inoki: I know people complain about his booking style but was he a good wrestler?

 

-Giant Baba: I've heard he was slow and plodding later but in his day was he a good wrestler?

 

-Bruiser Brody: Yes the big monster. He looked crazy....but was he a good wrestler?

 

-The Great Muta/Keiji Mutoh: This has nothing to do with the Muta of today. I'm talking about in the day. People call him lazy but could he be any good if he wanted to?

 

-Stan Hansen: Apparently a legendary Gaijin...was he any good? If he is then why the hell can't Bradsahw do anything because he rips the guy off something horrible.

 

-Steve Williams: Not really a legend but he's from my state....was he a good wrestler though?

 

And if some of these guys aren't any good then how did they get over as legends?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Well, I can comment on a few of these:

 

Inoki: Having only seen his rediculously brutal beating at the hands of Vader (which was way past his era as a wreslter) I can't judge for sure.

 

Bruiser Brody: Having never seen a match of his, I can't really give proper insight, but from what I've heard, he was quite awesome at what he did. Generally regarded as one of the first "hardcore" wrestlers who knew how to bring a psychopathic mentality to all his matches that was just horrific for the time period. A great brawler and amazing ring presance. Again, that's just his reputation.

 

Giant Baba: From what I've seen, I can't imagine him ever being good. You never know, though.

 

Muta: Just really hit and miss. He had some great matches in the NWA with Sting and the like, but in Japan it was almost like he used the gimick as an excuse to half-ass it all the time. He was always using tables and mist and garbage crap as opposed to actually wrestling. His blood bath with Hase is really something to see, however, if for nothing else than to see where the Muta scale comes from.

 

Hansen: An amazing wrestler, from what I've seen. Had a legendary match with Kobashi in '93 that many consider one of the best AJPW matches of all time.

 

Steve Williams: Deffinately a great worker in his prime, he formed an amazing tag team with Terry Gordy and did some great stuff in All Japan with the usual guys, too.

[Guest wolverine]

"-Stan Hansen: Apparently a legendary Gaijin...was he any good?"

 

Hansen's match with Kenta Kobashi on 7/29/93 was arguably the greatest mens singles match in the history of wrestling when it happened.  Just an amazing, brutal, dramatic, memorable ***** classic that must been seen by every wrestling fan.  Kenta Kobashi became my all-time favorite wrestler after seeing this.

 

 

From:  Otherarena.com

[Guest Jubuki]

Haven't seen enough of Inoki to tell; the 1/96 Vader match is rather vicious, but I'd have to dig through the 70's tapes I've got to figure out how he was.

 

Brody isn't "awesome", nor was he really that good...but he was a rare straight brawler, and he was out of his gourd.  Had the aura down, others brought the work to go with it.

 

Baba was a much better worker than most will ever know.  Too much is made of his appearance; for someone who didn't look like a wrestler, he had a good bit of variety to his work, could get nasty and brawl with Hansen and Rusher and the like, and was willing to work with people to have good matches, even as late as the early 90's.  He's a legend for reasons other than his work, but he wasn't horrible.  AJ has had worse workers in its ranks - much worse.

 

Mutoh isn't a legend.  Legend would be Choshu, Fujinami, Maeda... not Mutoh.  He could go, and had it in him to be deserving of that status even today - but he hasn't lived up to the handful of great matches he's had.

 

Hansen was Brody with more method and better ring work.  He didn't have too many great matches until AJ went away from screwjobs and the Big 4 came into their own, but he could work and work and work when he wanted.  Deserved his place as the first top gaijin in both AJ & NJ.

 

Right about Williams - he isn't a legend - but he was on it for a while.  Was very good to great when gaijin were still treated as threats, from '91 up till about '97.  But drugs are bad, mmkay?

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Hansen's match with Kenta Kobashi on 7/29/93 was arguably the greatest mens singles match in the history of wrestling when it happened.  Just an amazing, brutal, dramatic, memorable ***** classic that must been seen by every wrestling fan.  Kenta Kobashi became my all-time favorite wrestler after seeing this.

 

Dammit. I knew I should've ordered this match instead. Lynch emailed me and told me I had 2 remaining hours to fill on the tape I was having made. I decided on the Champion Carnival 95 Final(Kawada/Williams) and the 3/4/95 Triple Crown match between Kawada/Hansen. But I was thinking of ordering this match....damn...should've ordered it instead of the Triple Crown match.

[Guest wolverine]

"I decided on the Champion Carnival 95 Final(Kawada/Williams)"

 

That's the 1994 final.  Solid choice, but from reading stuff that people have written, you'll either love it, or not. ****+

 

"and the 3/4/95 Triple Crown match between Kawada/Hansen. But I was thinking of ordering this match....damn...should've ordered it instead of the Triple Crown match."

 

I haven't seen this one, but I've heard nothing positive about it.  If you want Kawada-Hansen, get their 2/28/93 match, which owns, like ****3/4.  People say this one is in the **-*** range.

[Guest MrDanger]

Antonio Inoki: A decent to good worker in his prime who really knew how to connect with the fans, had that superstar aura.

 

Giant Baba: I can honestly say that Baba has been poor to dreadful every time I've seen him in the ring, well I guess he must have been doing something right to become such an icon.

 

Bruiser Brody; If you're looking at his work now, it's really nothing special at all and at times it's flat out bad, however Brody was the best brawler in the business during the early/mid 80's and had that amazing wild man believability.

 

Keiji Mutoh: Had the potential to be something really special, unfortunately he was often terribly inconsistent and at times just amazingly lazy. A case of unfulfilled potential I'm afraid

 

Stan Hansen: Hansen was simply the man, a great mixture of raw brutality and ring smarts. Right up there with The Destroyer in terms of Gaijin legend status.

 

Steve Williams: I'm not really as high on Williams’s work as others but he was a really good worker in his prime. On the second tier of Gaijin legends though

[Guest MrDanger]

I haven't seen this one, but I've heard nothing positive about it.  If you want Kawada-Hansen, get their 2/28/93 match, which owns, like ****3/4.  People say this one is in the **-*** range.

I can certainly vouch for Kawada/Hansen 2/28/93, for me it's even better than Kobashi/Hansen 7/29/93. Maybe that's the Kawada mark in me talking

[Guest J*ingus]

Just my own opinions:

 

-Inoki: from the few matches I've seen him in, he was only an average wrestler, but was always carefully and intelligently booked to look like one of the greatest (the '96 match with Vader being the best example).  

 

-Giant Baba: imagine an anorexic-looking Andre, and you have this stiff.  I've seen several matches with him, mostly from the early 80's, and he always sucked; bad timing, pathetic offense, horrible bumps.  In his "prime" he looked like Hogan does now.  At least Baba recognized his limitations though, and took himself off the top when there were better men for the spot.  

 

-Bruiser Brody: one hell of a brawler, and you could just tell that he was a bit crazy, for real.  His refusal to ever do a job gets annoying after a while.  I think he wouldn't be quite as revered as he is now if he was still alive.  

 

-The Great Muta/Keiji Mutoh: I think that lots of people forget just how damn good Muta was right around the turn of the decade, in his excellent matches against Steamboat, Hase, Sting, and so on.  He even yanked a shockingly good match out of Hogan in '93.  

 

-Stan Hansen: barring the Funk brothers, probably the best gaijin superstar in recent puroresu history.  Hansen is legendary as a ferocious brawler, but he could work the mat too, and often took agonizing bumps and beatings.  The aforementioned match with Kobashi in '93 is the one that first turned me on to AJPW.  

 

-Steve Williams: I must confess that I've only seen a few matches with him, but I just don't get what the big deal is.  Yes, he's good, but not that much better than several other similar wrestlers.  He comes off like Jim Duggan with a better attitude and motivation.  Getting knocked out by Bart Gunn won't help his "legend" status in the long run.

[Guest Singular]

Speaking of Brody and the whole pshycopathic persona he had, does anyone know what happend between him and Luger to make Brody scare Luger into running out of the cage in their cage match?

It's funny as hell if you havn't seen it.

[Guest MrDanger]

Speaking of Brody and the whole pshycopathic persona he had, does anyone know what happend between him and Luger to make Brody scare Luger into running out of the cage in their cage match?

It's funny as hell if you havn't seen it.

The basic gist of the story is that Luger was leaving Florida at the time for a great spot in the JCP promotion. However Luger was bragging for weeks beforehand about the big contract he was landing, therefore a lot of the boys convinced Brody to give Luger a little scare in the ring, Brody took this to the extreme by taping razor blades to his hands and generally just no selling all of Luger's offense.

 

Pretty funny if you ask me

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

I haven't seen this one, but I've heard nothing positive about it.  If you want Kawada-Hansen, get their 2/28/93 match, which owns, like ****3/4.  People say this one is in the **-*** range.

 

Well for someone reared on WWF and relatively new to Puro then it should be great for me.

 

Bruiser Brody; If you're looking at his work now, it's really nothing special at all and at times it's flat out bad, however Brody was the best brawler in the business during the early/mid 80's and had that amazing wild man believability.

 

Oh you mean looking at his work from then now. I thought you meant looking at his recent work. And I thought "What recent work? Hasn't he been dead for a long time!?" My bad....lol.......

 

Ok let's try some more legends.

 

The Funk Brothers: Well all I know is crazy old crappy wrestler Terry.....

 

Jumbo Tsurata: I've heard nothing but good things about him....

[Guest wolverine]

"Well for someone reared on WWF and relatively new to Puro then it should be great for me."

 

I doubt it.  The AJ style takes a while to get use to, especially if it's not a great match to begin with.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

I doubt it.  The AJ style takes a while to get use to, especially if it's not a great match to begin with.

 

I dunno is it stiff and brutal? From what I understand Kawada and Hansen are both stiff. I love brutality.

[Guest wolverine]

"I dunno is it stiff and brutal? From what I understand Kawada and Hansen are both stiff. I love brutality."

 

Again, I haven't seen it.  But I have seen 2/28/93, which is one of the stiffest matches I've ever seen.  If those guys had reached that level in 3/95, I'm sure there would be a lot more acclaim for the match, which there isn't.

 

From http://www.quebrada.net

 

Sankan Heavykyu Senshukan Jiai: Toshiaki Kawada vs. Stan Hansen. This was around the time Hansen started to not have it anymore. On the night he was finally getting the title back, he pretty much laid an egg. The whole match was built around Hansen's western lariat vs. Kawada's powerbomb. It was not nearly as stiff as their brilliant 2/28/93 match, and the psychology disappointed me as well. The biggest problem is the match went way too long for Hansen, who just didn't have it physically. He tried to be athletic doing a dropkick, a shoulder that somewhat resembled a tope, a shoulder off the apron, and an elbow drop off the apron. Aside from some suprising offense like this, the match was rather repetitive. The selling was excellent though with the exception of one spot where Hansen rolled to the floor and was overexaggerating. Hansen was putting over Kawada's head kicks like he was a bobble head doll except in a way they looked killer rather than comical. Many of Kawada's kicks were focused on the lariat arm, with a key spot that really kicked off his attack being Kawada stopping Hansen's western lariat with a kenka kick. Kawada abused the ganmengiri and enzuigiri, which while one of his big moves had little to do with the story, perhaps because they can easily be done to this opposition. The heat was terrible for AJ during this period. The fans weren't even popping when Kawada was trying for his powerbomb even though they'd set the match up so the first to hit their finisher was going to win. When Hansen finally hit his western lariat it was anticlimatic because the spot looked mistimed. It was good that Hansen sold his arm huge since Kawada had done so much damage to it, but I couldn't believe he was able to pin Kawada after all that time. It did put the western lariat over huge, but using an out spot that protects the finisher in my opinion does more to make the person who still couldn't kick out look bad than the finisher look that good. It's probably worth seeing every triple crown match, but this one shouldn't be near the top of your wish list. **3/4

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Oh well. I guess when you collect Puro it's inevitable to get the bad with the good. Oh well it gives a good basis of comparison. Because if all you see are awesome Puro matches then you have no idea what kinda crap there could be out there.

Then again I am morbidly curious to see the "worst Triple Crown match ever" between Scott Hall and Keiji Mutoh(i believe it was Mutoh). Does anyone know if this is funny in it's awfulness or just plain bad?

[Guest wolverine]

I really get pissed when I buy a tape and there's no **** matches on it (i.e. AJ vs. NJ 2001, NOAH 7/27/01).  This is why comps are somtimes good, but you miss out on stuff that way.  But anyways, I bought a comp recently with 5 **** matches on it, so I loved that.

[Guest dreamer420]

Lots of Muta's matches are hit and miss.  Given the right opponent (Sting, Steamboat), or feud and he can deliver but given the wrong feud (Sting in 2000, Ernest Miller) he looks old and like he should be sitting in the crowd.

[Guest MrDanger]

Then again I am morbidly curious to see the "worst Triple Crown match ever" between Scott Hall and Keiji Mutoh(i believe it was Mutoh). Does anyone know if this is funny in it's awfulness or just plain bad?

It's not exactly Hogan/Warrior 98 bad but it's a long way from actually being good, you've got to wonder whether New Japan set out to sabotage the Triple Crown by booking Mutoh in matches that they knew would be medicore at very best.