Italian journalist shot

[Jobber of the Week 0]

There was some kind of misunderstanding and we screwed up.

Nice conclusion to jump to. And here I wonder why that side always keeps saying we "blame America first." Usually it's INXS that answers that question for me.

 

Am I the only one amused that this woman is the only person to be taken from capture, aside from that guy who made his own escape? While I'm not quite as easily bought into conspiracy as Mike is, I wonder if the people who took her were terrorists at all or if this was a whole plan? Was she taken alone?

[Guest Cerebus]

There was some kind of misunderstanding and we screwed up.

Nice conclusion to jump to. And here I wonder why that side always keeps saying we "blame America first." Usually it's INXS that answers that question for me.

[Guest MikeSC]

There was some kind of misunderstanding and we screwed up.

Nice conclusion to jump to. And here I wonder why that side always keeps saying we "blame America first." Usually it's INXS that answers that question for me.

 

Am I the only one amused that this woman is the only person to be taken from capture, aside from that guy who made his own escape? While I'm not quite as easily bought into conspiracy as Mike is, I wonder if the people who took her were terrorists at all or if this was a whole plan? Was she taken alone?

I want to make it abundantly clear that I'm not blaming the Italian gov't whatsoever. I do not blame them for any of this. And since it turned out that an Italian secret service agent (and apparently a damned good one) was shot, I do feel for them.

 

I feel they were hoodwinked by this woman. She got a big payday for her captors at the expense of the Italians. And the driver's refusal to stop when ordered is something nobody seems to even try to explain. Even IF Italian intelligence spoke to the US military, it was at night and the soldiers can't readily recognize a car with its headlights bearing down on them.

 

I blame the "reporter" --- who, quite honestly, the US would have been wise to not even let inside of Iraq. After all, you didn't see Nazi sympathizers reporting from inside occupied Germany.

 

Her abduction sounds fishy. Her treatment by her captors sounds fishy. They KNEW she wasn't being told pro-American stories by the refugees. And, it seems most of the info is hailing from her boyfriend --- who ALSO writes for the Italian Communist Party's paper.

-=Mike

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Some of the circumstances may sound odd, but it is hardly enough evidence to get me to believe that the whole thing was a hoax. Really, that part of the story is irrelevent anyways.

 

The big thing is that the car did not stop at the checkpoint. The easy thing to do is to blame the driver of the car for the whole mess, so that's what I'll do. INXS is right. If you don't stop at a checkpoint, you are going to get shot at. End of story.

[2GOLD 0]

That's where I'll end it as well.

The driver didn't stop and that's all I need to hear. The soldiers did their job, the car didn't stop so they fired. There is nothing more to this story for me. They didn't screw up, the driver did.

 

You don't stop at a military checkpoint in a country where you know cars have been used as bombs then you need to get shot. Not to mention if you just "escaped" or were "released" or whatever, the first people you'd want to find is the damn military and not speed past them.

[Guest MikeSC]

According to the AP, this is her car where she was fired upon.

 

She claimed several hundred rounds were fired. Not a few --- several HUNDRED. And she now claims it wasn't at a checkpoint.

 

There seems to be a shocking lack of, you know, bullet holes.

-=Mike

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

So how many versions of this story has she told so far. I've counted at least 3 while looking through the recaps on LGF.

[Guest MikeSC]

So how many versions of this story has she told so far. I've counted at least 3 while looking through the recaps on LGF.

I'd like some INDEPENDENT verification of stuff.

-=Mike

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

It seems with each repeat viewing she's tried to make the U.S. look worse. She's trying to say they weren't at a checkpoint now or some crap like that.

 

I don't know. It's just horribly confusing because she keeps changing her story and it's just odd in general. I'm not a conspiracy sort of person but I wouldn't be surprised at all if she was working with the terrorists since no one else has been released like that.

[Guest MikeSC]

She's changed it AGAIN, too.

 

I'm still in the dark. Friday was the most dramatic day of my life. I had been in captivity for many days. I had just spoken with my captors. It had been days they were telling me I would be released. I was living in waiting for this moment. They were speaking about things that only later I would have understood the importance of. They were speaking about problems "related to transfers."

 

I learned to understand what was going on by the behavior of my two guards, the two guards that had me under custody every day. One in particular showed much attention to my desires. He was incredibly cheerful. To understand exactly what was going on I provocatively asked him if he was happy because I was going or because I was staying. I was shocked and happy when for the first time he said, "I only know that you will go, but I don't know when." To confirm the fact that something new was happening both of them came into my room and started comforting me and kidding: "Congratulations they said you are leaving for Rome." For Rome, that's exactly what they said. (Hmm, unusually friendly for captors, no?)

 

I experienced a strange sensation because that word evoked in me freedom but also projected in me an immense sense of emptiness. I understood that it was the most difficult moment of my kidnapping and that if everything I had just experienced until then was "certain," now a huge vacuum of uncertainty was opening, one heavier than the other. I changed my clothes. They came back: "We'll take you and don't give any signals of your presence with us otherwise the Americans could intervene." It was confirmation that I didn't want to hear; it was altogether the most happy and most dangerous moment. If we bumped into someone, meaning American military, there would have been an exchange of fire. (odd, considering she claims that Italian intel cleared the way for her and all) My captors were ready and would have answered. My eyes had to be covered. I was already getting used to momentary blindness. What was happening outside? I only knew that it had rained in Baghdad. The car was proceeding securely in a mud zone. There was a driver plus the two captors. I immediately heard something I didn't want to hear. A helicopter was hovering at low altitude right in the area that we had stopped. "Be calm, they will come and look for you...in 10 minutes they will come looking for." They spoke in Arabic the whole time, a little bit of French, and a lot in bad English. Even this time they were speaking that way.

 

Then they got out of the car. I remained in the condition of immobility and blindness. My eyes were padded with cotton, and I had sunglasses on. I was sitting still. I thought what should I do. I start counting the seconds that go by between now and the next condition, that of liberty? I had just started mentally counting when a friendly voice came to my ears "Giuliana, Giuliana. I am Nicola, don't worry I spoke to Gabriele Polo (editor in chief of Il Manifesto). Stay calm. You are free." They made me take my cotton bandage off, and the dark glasses. I felt relieved, not for what was happening and I couldn't understand but for the words of this "Nicola." He kept on talking and talking, you couldn't contain him, an avalanche of friendly phrases and jokes. I finally felt an almost physical consolation, warmth that I had forgotten for some time.

 

The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell. Nicola Calipari sat next to me. The driver twice called the embassy and in Italy that we were heading towards the airport that I knew was heavily patrolled by U.S. troops. They told me that we were less than a kilometer away...when...I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier. (This doesn't sound even REMOTELY shaky, does it?)

 

The driver started yelling that we were Italians. "We are Italians, we are Italians." Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately I heard his last breath as he was dying on me. I must have felt physical pain. I didn't know why. But then I realized my mind went immediately to the things the captors had told me. They declared that they were committed to the fullest to freeing me but I had to be careful, "the Americans don't want you to go back." Then when they had told me I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths, at this time I cannot tell you the rest.  (Shocking, the Americans were the bad guys, not the people who allegedly abducted her. Yeah, this story is holding up REAL well) 

 

This was the most dramatic day. But the months that I spent in captivity probably changed forever my existence. One month alone with myself, prisoner of my profound certainties. Every hour was an impious verification of my work, sometimes they made fun of me, and they even stretch as far as asking why I wanted to leave, asking me stay. (So, the captors are, apparently, schizophrenic. Nice to know that) They insisted on personal relationships. It was them that made me think of the priorities that too often we cast aside. They were pointing to family. "Ask your husband for help," they would say. And I also said in the first video that I think you all saw, "My life has changed." As Iraqi engineer Ra'ad Ali Abdulaziz of the organization A Bridge For [baghdad], who had been kidnapped with the two Simones had told me "my life is not the same anymore." I didn't understand. Now I know what he meant. Because I experienced the harshness of truth, it's difficult proposition (of truth) and the fragility of those who attempt it.

 

In the first days of my kidnapping I did not shed a tear. I was simply furious. I would say in the face of my captors: "But why do you kidnap me, I'm against the war." And at that point they would start a ferocious dialogue. "Yes because you go speak to the people, we would never kidnap a journalist that remains closed in a hotel and because the fact that you say you're against the war could be a decoy." And I would answer almost to provoke them: "It's easy to kidnap a weak woman like me, why don't you try with the American military." I insisted on the fact that they could not ask the Italian government to withdraw the troops. Their political go-between could not be the government but the Italian people, who were and are against the war.

 

It was a month on a see-saw shifting between strong hope and moments of great depression. Like when it was a first Sunday after the Friday they kidnapped me, in the house in Baghdad where I was kept, and on top of which was a satellite dish they showed me the Euronews Newscast. There I saw a huge picture of me hanging from Rome City Hall. I felt relieved. Right after though the claim by the Jihad that announced my execution if Italy did not withdraw the troops arrived. I was terrified.  (How sweet, they let her watch TV, rather than the usual BEHEADING her) But I immediately felt reassured that it wasn't them. I didn't have to believe these announcements, they were "provocative." Often I asked the captor that from his face I could identify a good disposition but whom like his colleagues resembled a soldier: "Tell me the truth. Do you want to kill me?" Although many times there have been windows of communications with them. "Come watch a movie on TV" they would say while a Wahabi roamed around the house and took care of me. The captors seemed to me a very religious group, in continuous prayer on the Koran. But Friday, at the time of the release, the one that looked the most religious and who woke up every morning at 5 a.m. to pray incredibly congratulated me shaking my hand, a behavior unusual for an Islamic fundamentalist -- and he would add "if you behave yourself you will leave immediately." Then an almost funny incident. One of the two captors came to me surprised both because the TV was showing big posters of me in European cities and also for Totti. Yes Totti. He declared he was a fan of the Roma soccer team and he was shocked that his favorite player went to play with the writing "Liberate Giuliana" on his T-shirt.  (Those zany Islamofascists!)

 

I lived in an enclave in which I had no more certainties. I found myself profoundly weak. I failed in my certainties; I said that we had to tell about that dirty war. And I found myself in the alternative either to stay in the hotel and wait or to end up kidnapped because of my work. We don't want anyone else anymore. The kidnappers would tell me. But I wanted to tell about the bloodbath in Fallujah from the words of the refugees. And that morning the refugees, or some of their leaders would not listen to me. I had in front of me the accurate confirmation of the analysis of what the Iraqi society had become as a result of the war and they would throw their truth in my face: "We don't want anybody why didn't you stay in your home. What can this interview do for us?" The worse collateral effect, the war that kills communication was falling on me. To me, I who had risked everything, challenging the Italian government who didn't want journalists to reach Iraq and the Americans who don't want our work to be witnessed of what really became of that country with the war and notwithstanding that which they call elections. Now I ask myself. Is their refusal a failure?

Courtesy: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/

 

Now, go ahead --- tell me her story isn't TOTAL bullshit.

-=Mike

[2GOLD 0]

Ok, now it's becoming obvious she is lying her ass off.

[Vyce 0]

I don't know if the abduction was a hoax or not, but regardless, the U.S. troops were totally in the right for firing upon the vehicle. If you run a checkpoint, your ass is GOING to be shot, because the troops have absolutely zippy chance of knowing whether or not you're driving a car bomb.

 

And whatever her culpability in this, this woman is, rather despicably, using the Italian agent's death to further her political agenda. She's pretty much saying now that she was targeted for assassination by the American troops all along, which is complete horseshit. It's just rather sad to see that this agent pretty much gave his life for her to use his death as a political weapon.

 

I must say, though, I'm surprised the usual suspects here haven't come out already and made the typical anti-American posts.

[Guest MikeSC]

More news:

Italians kept U.S. forces in dark

 

 

By John Phillips

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

 

ROME -- Italian agents likely withheld information from U.S. counterparts about a cash-for-freedom deal with gunmen holding an Italian hostage for fear that Americans might block the trade, Italian news reports said yesterday.

    The decision by operatives of Italy's SISMI military intelligence service to keep the CIA in the dark about the deal for the release of reporter Giuliana Sgrena, might have "short-circuited" communications with U.S. forces controlling the road from Baghdad to the city's airport, the newspaper La Stampa said.

    That would help explain why American troops opened fire on a car whisking the released hostage to a waiting airplane, wounding Miss Sgrena and killing the Italian intelligence operative who had just negotiated her release.

    Thousands of Italians yesterday congregated on the Altar to the Fatherland in Rome's vast Piazza Venezia to view the coffin of Nicola Calipari, the 52-year-old head of SISMI's international operations department.

    Miss Sgrena, a reporter for the Communist daily Il Manifesto, charged yesterday that U.S. forces might have deliberately targeted her because Washington opposes Italy's policy of dealing with kidnappers.

    "The United States doesn't approve of this [ransom] policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible," the veteran war reporter, 57, told Sky Italia TV.

    Miss Sgrena, whose newspaper ardently opposes Italy's deployment of 3,000 troops in Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition, offered no direct evidence to support the charge and toned down the suggestion in a later interview with Reuters.

    "If this happened because of a lack of information or deliberately, I don't know, but even if it was due to a lack of information, it is unacceptable," she said from her hospital room.

    There were conflicting reports on the extent to which Italian authorities had informed their American counterparts about the operation, in which a reported $6 million was paid for the journalist's release.

    Mr. Calipari and another senior SISMI operative concluded the deal for her release on Friday in Abu Dhabi and then flew to Baghdad aboard a secret service Falcon executive jet to collect her, La Stampa said.

    At the airport, they met an Italian military liaison office,r and U.S. military authorities issued them passes allowing them to travel around Baghdad carrying weapons, the newspaper said citing SISMI sources.

    The sources said the Italians explained "the terms of the mission" and "the exact nature of the operation" to U.S. officials at the airport. Sources also said an American officer was instructed to wait at the airport for Mr. Calipari and the freed hostage.

    But La Stampa also quoted diplomatic sources saying vital information was withheld from the Americans.

    "Italian intelligence decided to free Sgrena paying a sum to the kidnappers without informing American colleagues in Iraq who, if they had known about this, would have had to oppose it, to have impeded the operation," sources said.

    "If this was the case, it could explain why American intelligence had not informed the American military commands about the operation and thus the patrol did not expect the car with the Italians."

    Whatever the truth, the affair aroused public opinion and put pressure on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to take a tough line with President Bush.

    Mr. Berlusconi won plaudits last year when Mr. Calipari obtained the release of two young volunteers kidnapped in Iraq known as the two Simonas, also through payment of a multimillion dollar ransom.

    That money reputedly came not from the state, but from the personal fortune of Mr. Berlusconi, a media magnate who is Italy's richest man.

    But the death of Mr. Calipari, while using his body to shield Miss Sgrena from U.S. fire, has sparked deep anger and could cost the prime minister in regional elections at the end of this month.

    In the past, the Italian left detested the security services, notorious for skulduggery and links to the neo-fascist right, but since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the left has idolized men like Mr. Calipari, who spent most of his career as a police officer in his native Calabria fighting organized crime. He transferred to the military intelligence service just two years ago.

    Several government ministers joined the driver of the car yesterday in rejecting the U.S. explanation that the Americans opened fire only after the driver ignored signals to slow down as he approached a checkpoint.

    Mr. Bush has promised a full probe into why troops shot at the Italian car nearing Baghdad airport Friday evening.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050307-120131-5769r.htm

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I blame the "reporter" --- who, quite honestly, the US would have been wise to not even let inside of Iraq. After all, you didn't see Nazi sympathizers reporting from inside occupied Germany.

Does that really equate? If she was sympathizing with terrorists, why would they kidnap her? Yeah, in her video there was a lot of pleas to withdraw, but who else's kidnapping home video calmly says "Don't withdraw, just let them kill me, it'll all be fine?"

[Jobber of the Week 0]

She claimed several hundred rounds were fired. Not a few --- several HUNDRED. And she now claims it wasn't at a checkpoint.

 

There seems to be a shocking lack of, you know, bullet holes.

-=Mike

What the hell did they do? I'm rather interested to know how they could cause so much harm to a car's occupants without even breaking or leaving a hole in the windshield. The only things I can think of is an explosion underneath or placing a large barricade it crashes into, but even that would damage the windshield.

[Guest BDC]

I don't get this whole thing. And by whole thing, I don't get why there's even a discussion.

 

The crazy bitch is lying; that's pretty obvious. The car doesn't match up. The different versions don't match up. Journalists are told when they enter the country to stop at checkpoints or they'll be shot at.

 

At people in Italy are SIDING with her on this?

 

It's honestly very disgusting, especially since she's directly responsible for and is exploiting the death of a governmental agent.

[Ripper 0]

All the people saying the car doesn't match up with the story. You obviously have never been shot at. Someone shoots at you witha automatic weapon it is going to seem like hundreds of shots came a flyin. So while in hindsight it sounds like BS, it is possible that aperson fired upon by more than one automatic weapons believe that they were shot at hundreds of times.

 

 

the rest of the story sounds like BS though, but that part, I can understand.

[Guest BDC]

Ripper, while I don't disagree with you, American troops by and large carry m16s which are set on either burst (3 rounds at a time) or semi auto. From what I understand, if you're going to be making some pretty precise shots, you want to use semi.

 

I would imagine that such was the case here. Speeding car? Gotta take them down? I'd wanna be pretty precise myself.

[Ripper 0]

Ripper, while I don't disagree with you, American troops by and large carry m16s which are set on either burst (3 rounds at a time) or semi auto. From what I understand, if you're going to be making some pretty precise shots, you want to use semi.

 

I would imagine that such was the case here. Speeding car? Gotta take them down? I'd wanna be pretty precise myself.

really? I would guess Speeding car would be the "send as many shots as possible to put that fucker down" scenario. Especially seeing as it was night.

[Guest BDC]

Ripper, while I don't disagree with you, American troops by and large carry m16s which are set on either burst (3 rounds at a time) or semi auto.  From what I understand, if you're going to be making some pretty precise shots, you want to use semi.

 

I would imagine that such was the case here.  Speeding car?  Gotta take them down?  I'd wanna be pretty precise myself.

really? I would guess Speeding car would be the "send as many shots as possible to put that fucker down" scenario. Especially seeing as it was night.

Maybe, maybe not. I haven't been through military rifle training.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Ripper, while I don't disagree with you, American troops by and large carry m16s which are set on either burst (3 rounds at a time) or semi auto.  From what I understand, if you're going to be making some pretty precise shots, you want to use semi.

 

I would imagine that such was the case here.  Speeding car?  Gotta take them down?  I'd wanna be pretty precise myself.

really? I would guess Speeding car would be the "send as many shots as possible to put that fucker down" scenario. Especially seeing as it was night.

While not being from the military, it seems common cop strategy is to shoot low to take out the tires, steering, and engine when faced with such a threat.

[Guest BDC]

Of course, I heard stories from a Marine buddy of mine about taking a grenade launcher and putting a 40mm right into the cab.

 

I would think that elminating the driver would be the favored course. The difference b/t military and police is that the police usually want you alive. The military kills you.

[Guest MikeSC]

I blame the "reporter" --- who, quite honestly, the US would have been wise to not even let inside of Iraq. After all, you didn't see Nazi sympathizers reporting from inside occupied Germany.

Does that really equate? If she was sympathizing with terrorists, why would they kidnap her?

You've missed my belief that the "kidnapping" was not exactly a hostile act, but a way for her to get money for her captors. Their treatment of her was SIGNIFICANTLY different than how they treat other captives --- such as that British woman who has worked to help Iraqis for 30 years or so.

Yeah, in her video there was a lot of pleas to withdraw, but who else's kidnapping home video calmly says "Don't withdraw, just let them kill me, it'll all be fine?"

Her story changes. Constantly. The only news about this is coming from that propaganda mill she works for.

 

I do not believe her story. At all.

 

You didn't find it odd that she had nothing negative to say about her captors?

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

And ANOTHER gem from our little friend:

 

"I think that the happy end to the negotiations may have bothered them. The Americans are against this type of operation," she told Corriere della Sera newspaper Monday. "For them, war is war. Human life is worth little."

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050307/...HOOTING-DC.html

Yeah, this only seems MORE suspicious every minute.

-=Mike

[Guest Cerebus]

I blame the "reporter" --- who, quite honestly, the US would have been wise to not even let inside of Iraq. After all, you didn't see Nazi sympathizers reporting from inside occupied Germany.

Does that really equate? If she was sympathizing with terrorists, why would they kidnap her?

For most of these "militants" a Westerner is a Westerner. For them at least, the difference between an Italian communist and a contractor from Kansas is so small as to be insignificance.

[Guest MikeSC]

I blame the "reporter" --- who, quite honestly, the US would have been wise to not even let inside of Iraq. After all, you didn't see Nazi sympathizers reporting from inside occupied Germany.

Does that really equate? If she was sympathizing with terrorists, why would they kidnap her?

For most of these "militants" a Westerner is a Westerner. For them at least, the difference between an Italian communist and a contractor from Kansas is so small as to be insignificance.

However, given their treatment of her, they clearly knew the difference.

-=Mike

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I'm expecting there to be space aliens involved in her story by the end of the week. That's how out there it's getting. Her new they were targetting me and tanks were firing at us story is just impossible. There wouldn't be a car left if a tank fired at them.

[2GOLD 0]

If it wasn't for Jack Ryan wanting to protect her, and sending her messages of the tank fire with his mind then she'd be dead right now!

Not to mention when the car wrecked, she would have died had Superman not flew down and pulled her from the car before it exploded. AND THEN she got angry and beat down 10 soldiers in her Incredible Hulk form!

[Boon 0]

Bitch probably shot Kennedy, too.

[Guest Cerebus]

I blame the "reporter" --- who, quite honestly, the US would have been wise to not even let inside of Iraq. After all, you didn't see Nazi sympathizers reporting from inside occupied Germany.

Does that really equate? If she was sympathizing with terrorists, why would they kidnap her?

For most of these "militants" a Westerner is a Westerner. For them at least, the difference between an Italian communist and a contractor from Kansas is so small as to be insignificance.

However, given their treatment of her, they clearly knew the difference.

-=Mike

It may seem that way, Mike, but I assure you its not the case. This is from personal knowledge from VERY reliable sources but...trust me she was not an unusual case except for its ending (that includes her ransom and the lack of communication between Italian and American officials).