Some juniors talk

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Back in the fall, I took the time to gather a bunch of Juniors matches that I thought were worthy of seeing.  Prior to this, I had seen the main crop of matches, including the Super J Cup 94 stuff, the Super J Cup 95 stuff, and a ton of Benoit from 1995 TOSJ.  I was impressed with the matches but nothing really blew me away, including the Sasuke v Benoit J Cup final at the time.

 

So I went to Jeff Lynch and had him compile a whole bunch of matches, mostly from 1996 involving Otani, Liger, Benoit, Dragon, Sasuke, etc.  Along with basically falling in love with the whole 1996 year for Juniors, I also got a few "pimped" matches that I initially didn't like.  

 

The two matches that I thought were good but not great were the 6/11/96 Benoit v Guerrero and the 6/12/96 Liger v Guerrero.  After re-watching them this past weekend, they are indeed classics and well worthy of being in the cream of the crop as far as Junior action goes.

 

The Benoit v Guerrero match is majestic in that Benoit and Guerrero engage a crowd by using simple psychology and great story telling.  The match was JIP and the last 9 minutes aired.  What aired was Benoit basically becoming a heel by putting Guerrero in a sleeper hold in between Guerrero making his comeback efforts.  By the third sleeper hold, Guerrero was clearly the face as the crowd was activly booing Benoit.  

 

The effectivness of the sleeper allowed for two things to happen at the same time.  First, it was used to get over the fact that Benoit was stronger than Eddy, but was also very scared that Eddy would keep making big comebacks.  By putting on the same sleeper hold many times, it made Eddy the instant babyface.  Secondly, the move was also able to be used for some rest in between the high spot and heavily action oriented sequences in between...and still connect with the crowd, unlike a normal resthold or useless submission.

 

Eddy sells it the rest of the match and when he is climbing the turn buckle at one point, he has to shake his head out to orient himself again.  Benoit also throws in another great piece of psychology by teasing the tombstone piledriver off the top rope, the move that beat Guerrero in their TOSJ 95 match.  Eddy escapes it and finally finishes Benoit off with a top rope brainbuster.  

 

This match works for me a hell of a lot more than most of the praised Indy matches of 2001/2002 do.  The match was simple is its storytelling yet still had the classic junior moves.  Benoit hit a spectacular tope, a wicked dragon suplex, and a great powerbomb while Eddy had his great moveset in tact.  They didn't just run through moves for the heck of it.  Since the first 10+ minutes were not shown, I can't attest to what they do prior to the last 9, but my guess is the work would be more effective than the standard "let's do 15 minutes of mat work before 10 minutes of highspots to pop the smart crowd" instead of actually working to a specific goal.

 

Fantastic match, probably around ****1/4 for me and a great look at Benoit and Eddy in their primes.

 

Liger v BT later.

 

Tim

[Guest dr deaf]

one thing I would be interested in is the match list for a best of juniors tape that you got.  Mainly so I could go get my own.  I dig what I've seen but having limited funds makes it frustrating buying a tape with one or two good matches at a time and the rest just clipped to shit.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

For a quality Juniors tape that will expand upon the basic NJ Junior ideas, I would get the following matches:

 

1/21/96 Samurai v Otani (JIP)

3/17/96 Liger v Otani (JIP)

3/20/96 Otani v Pegasus (JIP)

6/11/96 Pegasus v Black Tiger (JIP)

6/12/96 Black Tiger v Liger (JIP)

8/4/96 Dragon v Otani

11/24/96 Dragon v Rey Jr. (WCW)

12/26/96 Dragon v Malenko (WCW)

2/9/97 Liger v Otani (get the complete version)

10/26/97 Guerrero v Rey Jr. (WCW)

 

After this volume, I would go back and fill in some of the major gaps.  The Liger v Sano feud, the Liger v Sammy classic of 1992 (4/30), and whatever else you need filled in.

 

Also, I would get the Rey Jr v Juve AAA tape from Wrestleholicsvideos.com and then get the Bob Barnett Hand Held from 3/16/96 to see Rey Jr. v Juve in the top element of their game.

 

There is tons more after that, but that is the really essential stuff for now.

 

Tim

[Guest dr deaf]

yeah, the work with Otani would make this a must have for me.  I haven't seen a lot of his stuff but what I have I love.  I think it's his work with submissions and not always a high spot machine.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Liger v Black Tiger (6/12/96)

 

This match is the final of the BOSJ Tournament.  It is JIP and the last 12 minutes is aired.  This match is more of a "throw everything out that you have" type of Juniors match.  With that said, it does contain some some good psychology.  The one true submission/rest hold that Liger puts on Eddy is a headscissors on his head, which is a playoff of Benoit working over Eddy's head the previous day.  Something small that adds up when looking at the whole match.  

 

The next piece of good psychology is when Eddy does a plancha.  The day before against Benoit, Eddy did a plancha, Benoit moved, Eddy landed on his feet and Benoit whipped him into the guard rail.  This time, the same thing happens as Liger moves, Eddy lands on his feet, Liger whips him but Eddy, learning from his previous mistake, whips Liger into the guard rail.  A small example of a wrestler growing and showing that he is getting smarter.  

 

The rest of the match is based around both wrestlers throwing all of their bombs at each other.  Eddy is able to over come everything Liger throws at him and ends it with a top rope brainbuster (the same move that defeated Benoit the previous day).  A great match, probably a notch below the Benoit/Eddy match from the prior day just because of personal taste, but they are eseentially equals.  ****-****1/4

 

Tim

[Guest wolverine]

For a quality Juniors tape that will expand upon the basic NJ Junior ideas, I would get the following matches:

 

1/21/96 Samurai v Otani (JIP)

3/17/96 Liger v Otani (JIP)

3/20/96 Otani v Pegasus (JIP)

6/11/96 Pegasus v Black Tiger (JIP)

6/12/96 Black Tiger v Liger (JIP)

8/4/96 Dragon v Otani

11/24/96 Dragon v Rey Jr. (WCW)

12/26/96 Dragon v Malenko (WCW)

2/9/97 Liger v Otani (get the complete version)

10/26/97 Guerrero v Rey Jr. (WCW)

In addition those, I'd also get these:

 

2/16/97 Liger vs. Kanemoto

6/5/97 Kanemoto vs. Samurai (Super Jr. Final)

6/3/98 Kanemoto vs. Wagner Jr. (Super Jr. Final)

 

There's a lot of people that don't like the 6/97 match, but I enjoyed it myself.  Those types of spotfests aren't everyone's cup of tea though.  Liger vs. Kanemoto is probably my favorite Koji match ever, and made me a fan of his.

[Guest Jubuki]

Liking the 6/97 match is one thing.  I like it.  The rana bump is crazy, and Sammy finally winning a big one was nice for a Samurai fan to see.

 

But I wouldn't put it alongside any of the matches I've seen from Tim's list.  Watching any of them back to back with the 6/97 is a good way to examine what "good work" means, how far simple visual appreciation can realistically take a match, what "spotfest" truly denotes.  I'd say that's particularly true about the Rey Jr. matches, as well as the 1/96 match.

[Guest wolverine]

For anyone interested, here's Meltzer's review from the 7/21/97 Wrestling Observer.  I don't agree with the rating at all, but it's some interesting reading:

 

"Samurai pinned Kanemoto in 23:51 to win the annual Top of the Super Junior tournament.  This is the match that Kanemoto saves as his personal career resume tape as he put on a performance worthy of a Shawn Michaels on PPV and probably puts him among the elite workers in this business, particularly since the performance combined so many different styles.  The fact that Samurai is a far better worker than the majority of opponents of Michaels made this a match of the year candidate.  Kanemoto carried things early, using mainly stiff kicks, submissions and crisp high spots.  He also took hard but realistic bumps for Samurai's comebacks.  Samurai suplexed Kanemoto over the top and hit a tope.  Kanemoto would use suplexes out of nowhere and immediately hit submissions, made more effective by Samurai and announcer Tsuji both putting on a selling demonstration on how to get submissions over before getting to the ropes.  At another point Kanemoto tied Samurai up in the ropes and literally kicked the hell out of him, particularly leg kicks.  He continued on top until Samurai hit a desperation forearm.  As he went for a power bomb, Kanemoto reversed him into a standing half crab like submission.  Samurai came back with two DDT's and a head-BUTT off the top for a near fall.  Kanemoto came back with hard slaps to the face and then ripped up Samurai's mask and tore it almost completely off, exposing his face for the rest of the match.  He put Samurai on top in a backward superplex position but instead gave him a Frankensteiner from that reverse position into the ring which was just incredible.  He went for a moonsault, but Samurai got his knees up.  Samurai hit two power bombs and got an ankle lock, but Kanemoto made the ropes.  Kanemoto used a unique version of a powerslam while both men were standing on the top rope into the ring, hit a moonsault and then a Tiger suplex but Samurai kicked out.  He missed another moonsault, and Samurai hit a reverse DDT off the top rope which was the first time I've ever seen that spot, and followed it with two more reverse implant DDT's in the ring for the pin.  *****"

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"2/16/97 Liger vs. Kanemoto"

 

Haven't seen it but will sooner or later just to see how it compares ot the super classic the week before.  Koji bugs me a lot more after 1995...where as Otani is perfect in his role through 1996 into early 1997.

 

"6/5/97 Kanemoto vs. Samurai (Super Jr. Final)"

 

I hate this match.  It just seems so meaningless to me as they just roll through the motions with some highspots thrown in.  Honestly, I would rather see an MPro type singles match spotfest (Taka v Delphin or even Liger v Togo) before I see Koji pull out weird selling.

 

"6/3/98 Kanemoto vs. Wagner Jr. (Super Jr. Final)"

 

Not a favorite of mine.  Seems to go 5-10 minutes too long.  Just doesn't strike me as anything really special.

 

Tim

[Guest wolverine]

"6/3/98 Kanemoto vs. Wagner Jr. (Super Jr. Final)"

 

Not a favorite of mine.  Seems to go 5-10 minutes too long.  Just doesn't strike me as anything really special.

I need to rewatch it, but I remember it being an awesome technical display by Wagner, carrying Koji through it.  It really is an excellent match, although not on the level of some of the ones you've mentioned.

[Guest Jubuki]

The 'combining many styles' comment at the beginning was as far as I could get with that read.

 

I wonder if it occurred to him that it doesn't matter at all how many styles someone can 'combine' -- if you combine them all and they look like crap, you're not an "elite" worker, you're a crap worker.  I'd really like to see some of the matches Koji had with Benoit & Ohtani, though; I suspect something interesting would come of that, as Koji tends to be too much of a Chono-like jerk to work very serious storytellers like Liger and Samurai.

[Guest wolverine]

I honestly don't think his kicks, submissions or high spots looked like "crap."  The guy had developed a prick persona at that point, and what he was doing in there was to get over the character.  Some don't like that shit, and that's fine.  But to others, myself included, it's pretty entertaining sometimes.  It got out of hand when he stopped selling in 1999, but his work was pretty solid prior.

[Guest Black Tiger]

I like Kanemoto for the same reason I liked Tatsuhito Takaiwa. He's something different than the normal.

 

While most of the Juniors were flashy masked high flyers, Takaiwa was a power wrestler. People like to bitch that he didn't fight like a junior, that was part of his appeal to me.

 

Kanemoto is pretty much the only punk type junior left in New Japan. He can kick very stiff and yet still deliver a gorgeous moonsault. He's my leading pick to win this years Best of Super Juniors tournament, going over Minoru Tanaka. The fact that he looks like a junor Masahiro Chono doesn't hurt my opinion of him at all either.

[Guest MRFTW]

"It got out of hand when he stopped selling in 1999"

 

He had fucked up selling long before then. I forget who it was against but I was watching a match of his from early 98 a few weeks ago whear he took something like a clothesline, split legged moonsault and 2 michinoku drivers all in the span of about 2 minutes and no sold it all.

[Guest wolverine]

"He had fucked up selling long before then. I forget who it was against but I was watching a match of his from early 98 a few weeks ago whear he took something like a clothesline, split legged moonsault and 2 michinoku drivers all in the span of about 2 minutes and no sold it all."

 

When I watch Kanemoto matches, I don't expect world class selling.  If I wanted to see that, I'd watch Kawada matches.....

[Guest Jubuki]

Don't misunderstand.

 

Kanemoto's moves, technically, may look fine.  He can throw nice kicks, he can do a whole Hell of a lot of impressive-*looking* stuff, and I have no problem with that.  It's one requirement to being good, so it's one aspect he's got under control.

 

But being *good* is a lot more than that.  Knowing how to fill time adequately, putting things in a good order, knowing when the attitude is too much or too little, knowing when to defer to the other guy, knowing when to make him defer to you, knowing when to pick up the pace and when & how to take it down without killing the heat...these are the things I don't see in him like I see in many others.  They're the things that let a worker 'combine styles' well -- they're the things that a Takada, a Sano...Hell, a Yoji Anjo, are or were very good at.  

 

Alex Otsuka's a good comparison to Koji; he doesn't fly, but he does a lot of campy pro stuff in addition to a deeper repertoire of the same types of holds and his own set of good strikes.  But he doesn't appear to remember what it takes to have a good match anymore, or he's just not working the guys who could make him look good anymore.  He was really good in '99, early '00...and then just fell off.  I don't see the thought behind his work like I see from Hidaka or Ikeda or Ishikawa.  I think Koji's much the same way when put up next to Liger or Samurai or Ohtani.  The BatBat 3 is nowhere close to the NJ 3, but the gap between good execution and good performance is comparable.

[Guest Black Tiger]

I've only Kanemoto vs Lyger once. In BOSJ 1997 and I thought the match was very good. I'd give it ***. Lyger also carried it for the most part.

 

I like the idea of Kanemoto vs Minoru Tanaka because they both work a similar style. Being former tag partners will help build heat up as well, notice on all their six and eight man tags, and elimination matches, almost every time it's never Kanemoto over Tanaka and vice versa.

[Guest MRFTW]

"When I watch Kanemoto matches, I don't expect world class selling.  If I wanted to see that, I'd watch Kawada matches....."

 

I like Kanemoto allright, I haven't had a problem with him in most of the stuff i've seen him in, but taking a split legged moonsault and 2 michinoku drivers all in a row then no selling them like he hadn't been hit with anything...that ain't right...

[Guest wolverine]

Well, I rewatched the Koji-Sammy BOSJ final yesterday and it sure as hell didn't hold up after a year. It's indeed quite overrated. Like ***-***1/2.

 

It's not even as good as Sammy's league match with Ohtani two days earlier. I shouldn't have brought it up here without watching again first.