American society today

[Guest]

I am an 18-year old conservative. Please, hold your shock til the end. I'm sure most of you are flabbergasted, as conservatives are "evil" and want to destroy your lives. Those of you who think that, congratulations, you're another feces-spewing drone follower of the liberal media. You see, I'm a conservative because I have common sense. I look at society today, and this is what I see: rampant and unabashed drug useage, underage sex and pregnancies, underage drinking, school shootings, Republicans being turned into demons in the eyes of the press and the masses, and abortion (although this is really a true debateable topic). Along with those, is a majority of Americans whole-heartedly supporting those insults to civilization. And it all boils down to one thing, people passing the buck. Not holding themselves RESPONSIBLE.

 

To begin with, it'd help to take a summary of the course of the degradation society has had. This excerpt from the Marine Corps Gazette, a piece written by William S. Lind, does just that.

 

            "Starting in the mid-1960s, we have thrown away the values, morals, and standards that define traditional Western culture. In part, this has been driven by cultural radicals, people who hate our Judeo-Christian culture. Dominant in the elite, especially in the universities, the media, and the entertainment industries (now the most powerful force in our culture and a source of endless degradation), the cultural radicals have successfully pushed an agenda of moral relativism, militant secularism, and sexual and social "liberation". This agenda has slowly codified into a new ideology, usually known as "politcal correctness", that is in essence Marxism translated from economic into social and cultural terms."

 

The only problem in this paragraph is his use of the phrase "traditional Western culture". This lends itself to different semantical attacks by the radicals, either under "tradition" or "Western culture", and thus allowing those radicals to sidestep the point. I would replace "traditional Western culture" with "right from wrong.", as in "that define right from wrong."

 

What he has basically said is that now, things that are bankrupt and void of any kind of civility, are now widely accepted and defended by people in our society. Questioning of morals, values, and primciples. The attempt to coddle and pander to the misguided whinings of peoples who wish for equality, have had it granted, and now wish to become dominant instead of equal. These things, along with the list I mentioned in my first blurb, are the scourge of today's America.

 

The problem? People's mindsets. This is explained by retired Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard Trainor.

 

            "When I got out of boot camp in 1946, society was different. It was more disciplined, and most Americans trusted the government...it was an entirely different society, one that thought more about its responsibilities than its 'rights'."

 

People today have become lazy, selfish, complacent, and unmotivated. Of course there were people like that back in 1946, but there were a mere handful. Today, mistrust and self-centeredness are the norm. People do not want to be responsible for anyone or anything, other people are mere fodder and stepstools to more and more power, money, and pleasure. Instead of caring about others, instead of trying to better society and progress society, people care more about getting laid, having shiny new things, of supposed fun over work. This has led to the plagues, the vile "ideas" that now destroy the fabric of civilization.

 

Drug Useage - Health and well-being are of no concern to drug users. They care only for the supplication of their addiction, and of their need to feel mere biological and hormonal stimulation than of emotional and intellectual wells being filled. Instead of the feeling of knowing you have made a person's day better, drug users would rather create a seedy black market, wallow in the fog and haziness of a "high", and completely ignore the obstacles society must hurdle. Why? Because they want the stimulation, the selfish indulgence of a poison. Pathetic.

 

Underage Sex - More and more teenagers are having sex, and on top of that, more and more teenagers are having children. Yet no one really seems to find a problem in either of these, and why? They wish to pass the buck, it's another shirking of responsibility. People today claim to seperate lust and love, and they do, in only the wrong way. People will have sex with a person without loving them, instead of CONTAINING their primal need to be carnal. Instead of having self-control. And because of this, teenagers pick up on the vibe of "rampant sex with people is normal", and so delve into experimentation themselves, far before it is even RIGHT to start doing so. And of course, pregnancies are easily covered by abortion, aren't they?

 

Abortion - This is a debateable topic, truly, but I am against abortion, NOT because of the killing of a child (although that factors in), but for the fact that abortion is another passing of the buck. Instead of taking responsibility for your actions, your CHOICE, as an adult, you wish to slaughter a new life in order to have one less "hassle". Instead of being a parent. How sad and low these people are. Rape is the only justifiable source for an abortion.

 

School Shootings - Now that teachers are unable to truly teach a student (and parents do not choose to teach their child what to do and what not to do, either, if parents even stay together) right from wrong, with the loss of the ability to punish with a paddle, there has become a new wave in schools today. That of the clique, of the socially elite. Yes, it has always been around, but it is now enflammed in our age. People, bright and intelligent and FEELING people, are shunned, insulted, ostracized, and spat upon because they lack the social talents, or the physical talents, of those who are "popular". These people then go home, to see their parents fall apart and divorce, to their lack of friends, their news of crime, disgust, and corruption in society. This doesn't help nurture a soul, this destroys a soul and causes a Columbine. Throwing the buck to "video games, music, and TV" is ignoring the problem at hand. The problem of children and teens learning they can get away with whatever they want, without repercussion. Another shirking of responsibility by adults.

[Guest]

No, I'm not shocked... just amused. It seems everyone comes to a sudden understanding of the nature of the universe and all society's ills at 18, and then succumbs to gradual amnesia from that point on. What a mystery this is.

Congratulations on your enlightenment. I'd toast you, but you're not old enough to drink.

[Guest]

I agree with you, what I mean by that is, what the fuck hapened to our morals?  Drug use is rising!  Teen Pregnancies are rising!  School Shootings are getting deadlier!  Abortion is on the rise, but I believe it can be justified in the cases of rape, incest, and if the mother's life is in danger!  We also have Politicians who preach morality, but are the most immoral people around, but I won't judge everyone I have my own sins that will be judged by someone.  I recently heard about students protesting about being suspended after doing simulated sex acts at a school dance, what the fuck were these students thinking would happen?!

[Guest Ripper]

Socitety is just more blatant now.  

 

In the 40's or 50'2 or what ever, they can talk about how great the people were, but women were being treated like slaves, blacks were 10 grade citizens just a little above cattle and a little below dogs, children were being disowned and turned away because of their sexuality and such, cocaine use was higher(it was a social drug at the time), men cheated on thier wives without worry because at that time women stuck by thier man no matter what.  Churches were busy telling us that if something did have anything to do with church it was evil(includeing scientifically proven things being not taught because it was against god)....what a great society.

 

Society was freakin disgustinf back then.  Just like all nostalgia, all the bad  is ignored and the few things that were good are highlighted.  Olden times was great if you were  amiddle class white man, but for the rest of the world it was a sucky time.  

 

Today, it is pretty much the same only people see it for the bad also.  If guns were so readily availabe in the olden days, kids would have shot the shit out of people then.  Does anyone talk about how many people would get cut from razors(the weapon of choice at the time) back then.  No cause everything was great.  

 

I actually wanted to rant longer but I have to go...I'll finish bitching later

[Guest Ripper]

Ok, I got a little more time.

 

"People today have become lazy, selfish, complacent, and unmotivated. Of course there were people like that back in 1946, but there were a mere handful. Today, mistrust and self-centeredness are the norm. People do not want to be responsible for anyone or anything, other people are mere fodder and stepstools to more and more power, money, and pleasure. Instead of caring about others, instead of trying to better society and progress society, people care more about getting laid, having shiny new things, of supposed fun over work. This has led to the plagues, the vile "ideas" that now destroy the fabric of civilization."

 

All people wanted back then was money, and they didn't care about people.  All they wanted was shiney new things, to get laid and such.   People openly care about themselves and those close to them instead of hiding it to put up some stupid mask.  Organized crime was much much stronger then... lynching, racial and religious inequality isn't as rampant as it used to be.  

 

"Drug Useage - Health and well-being are of no concern to drug users. They care only for the supplication of their addiction, and of their need to feel mere biological and hormonal stimulation than of emotional and intellectual wells being filled. Instead of the feeling of knowing you have made a person's day better, drug users would rather create a seedy black market, wallow in the fog and haziness of a "high", and completely ignore the obstacles society must hurdle. Why? Because they want the stimulation, the selfish indulgence of a poison. Pathetic."

 

Drug usage isn't up, there are stronger drugs.  There were more alcoholics at that time than any time.  Alcohol was a drug.  Some families made a prosperous living from selling bootleg liquour.  As I said before, cocaine was a social drug back then.  It is seldom mentioned, but most well to do men would carry small puches were they could get a quick sniff.  If you look at some old Loony Tune cartoons, you will see the characters do it sometimes.  Are you saying drug use is ok if the drug isn't that strong??

 

"Underage Sex - More and more teenagers are having sex, and on top of that, more and more teenagers are having children. Yet no one really seems to find a problem in either of these, and why? They wish to pass the buck, it's another shirking of responsibility. People today claim to seperate lust and love, and they do, in only the wrong way. People will have sex with a person without loving them, instead of CONTAINING their primal need to be carnal. Instead of having self-control. And because of this, teenagers pick up on the vibe of "rampant sex with people is normal", and so delve into experimentation themselves, far before it is even RIGHT to start doing so. And of course, pregnancies are easily covered by abortion, aren't they?"

 

Ha.. This is funny.  Are you really that naive to belive that casual sex started in todays time.  Ever heard of the lover lanes, or of the parking with boys in cars.  All of the norm back then.  Teen pregnacies happend alot.  As a matter of fact, take yours and alot of your friends parents ages and thier grand parents and you will see a trend.  People just married earlier so they could be accepted having sex, and if a pregnacy before marriage happend, it was the norm(actually expected for them to become married.  Abortion came about because there was a demand for it.  There were huge amonts of the back alley abortions and to stop it, a more sanatized way was needed to be made.   You think abortion was a overnight thing.  It was the actions of the people in the 40's 50's and 60's that made it necessary.

 

"Abortion - This is a debateable topic, truly, but I am against abortion, NOT because of the killing of a child (although that factors in), but for the fact that abortion is another passing of the buck. Instead of taking responsibility for your actions, your CHOICE, as an adult, you wish to slaughter a new life in order to have one less "hassle". Instead of being a parent. How sad and low these people are. Rape is the only justifiable source for an abortion."

 

Well, thats just plain ignorant.  And Ignorance isn't a insult, it just means that you are a 18 year old without the experience to comment on things like this.  You should really talk to some peple that have had abortions, and not in the judgemental, see my opinoin way but as a way of trying to understand the reasonings.  Bringing a child into a world that you are not able to raise him correctly is doing incredible amounts of damage and causeing psycological damage that will be there in this person forever.  There are plenty of situations outside of rape and that abortion is needed.  I don't agree with multiple abortions, but most women who feel the after affects of one abortion never have another.  

 

"School Shootings - Now that teachers are unable to truly teach a student (and parents do not choose to teach their child what to do and what not to do, either, if parents even stay together) right from wrong, with the loss of the ability to punish with a paddle, there has become a new wave in schools today. That of the clique, of the socially elite. Yes, it has always been around, but it is now enflammed in our age. People, bright and intelligent and FEELING people, are shunned, insulted, ostracized, and spat upon because they lack the social talents, or the physical talents, of those who are "popular". These people then go home, to see their parents fall apart and divorce, to their lack of friends, their news of crime, disgust, and corruption in society. This doesn't help nurture a soul, this destroys a soul and causes a Columbine. Throwing the buck to "video games, music, and TV" is ignoring the problem at hand. The problem of children and teens learning they can get away with whatever they want, without repercussion. Another shirking of responsibility by adults. "

 

I give the olden days this, when someone was crazy, they were fucking  crazy. If mental instability is present, in all likely hood, they are going to kill someone.  Toss in the fact that guns are readily available, then you have crazy kids with guns.  That is why there is school shootings.  Those colinbine kids could have had more friends than you can count and they would have shot the school up (hell was it like 6 guys in that trench coat mafia...that is quite a few friends.)  You yourself are passing the buck.  Boo hoo, the intelligent and sensitive are being ridiculed.  So what. It has been that way forever.  You attack what you envy.  Olden times, the sensitives were called sissys, the artistic were wierdos and the smart were nerds and squares.  It is the same today.  Like I said before, stabbings and cuttings were commonplace in the school back then.  Kids are doing the same today as they did in olden time, they are just more effecient.  How in the hell is giving a stranger the right to strike your children with a paddle going to help?  Teachers are people...they have the same faults.  They will have bad days, they will have grudges against some...are you willing to give these people the right to hit your child at thier own discretion.  That is also passing the buck... Its the parents responsibilty and theirs alone to disipline children.  If they aren'r ready to disipline children, maybe they should have them.

 

 

 

This world is a messed up and corrupt place, but the olden days were just as messed up and just and corrupt, but has better press. In the year 2060, people will be talking about how great these days were.

[Guest]

Ripper, I applaud your patience.

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

Well, interestingly enough, there is a happy medium.  Yes, most of this stuff was around in the old days, and yes, it's simply becoming more rampant now, but I want you to bear something in mind.  

 

Just because it's been that way a while, just because it's becoming more prevelent doesn't make it right.  That doesn't mean that for many people, some of this stuff is just downright stupid and you shouldn't do it.  Why should you attack artistic people and nerds in high school?  Why should you go out and get hooked on cocaine, LSD and so on.  (Why didn't I say pot?  Pot is habitual, not addictive.  The only addictive property is the minds of the people that use it.)

 

Why is it okay to steal from other people to support your drug habit?  That's what seems to come up with the arguments.  Yeah, the given norm isn't exactly appealing.  Yeah, a lot of it is people not taking responsibility.  Some of it is times changing.  I'm not going to say changing for better or changing for worse, but times do change.

 

Hell, I'm a 20 yr old conservative and this world is insane.  I try to live as best I can and not get so pissed off my blood pressure jumps whenever I look at the world.  Sure, I still get pissed, but I say a prayer and go on.  Loosen up a bit, man.  I'm not saying be happy with what's around you, but don't be so damn pissed off with it.

 

By the way, Mario, I have to agree with you.  I'm on your side, but I'm not going to go out and yell at the world over it.  I'm not say you are, mind you.  And about those people that did that dance, I'm betting they were so damn caught up in what they were doing and what people would think, they simply could not or would not comprehend/think about what was going to happen to them.  Bravo to that stuff.  Artisitic expression, my ass.  I saw it in a dance concert this past semester and some girls that weren't even technically in dance theater danced in a piece to "Put Your Back Into It" by Ice T and wondered why the director told them to never even think about doing something like that again.  Softcore in the middle of dances that people worked their asses off to get right and you expect her to be happy with it?

 

I hate political correctness...

[Guest]

Why is it okay to steal from other people to support your drug habit?

Who said this, and where? And how is it relevant, anyway, wherever you heard it? Attacking a stupid argument doesn't make your own position any stronger.

 

Just because it's been that way a while, just because it's becoming more prevelent doesn't make it right.

That isn't how I read Ripper's posts. I thought he was saying that society is progressing, not getting worse; that crime, bigotry, and violence are decreasing, not becoming more prevalent; and I thought he gave several solid examples that illustrated his point.

 

Incidentally, Dante, do you drink? Just wondering, because that's about the only thing from the original post you didn't touch on. I'm not attacking you, and I'm not commenting on the underage thing - just pointing out that alcohol is more harmful and addictive than LSD. So is tobacco, incidentally, and tobacco harms other people too. I drink and smoke but I don't technically "do drugs." Why are my vices legal when you can go to jail for taking LSD?

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

Okay, the first argument is simply taken in the spirit of the whole "times are changing, it's all good" attitude.  No, it wasn't openly stated, but I think it's very clearly wrong.  Carpe diem?  Good way to lead to corpse diem. (No, not clever, I realize)

 

The second thing?  That's not the spirit I read it in, either, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he said, either.  A good deal of it, yes.  But not all of it

[Guest]

Hell, I'm a 20 yr old conservative and this world is insane.  I try to live as best I can and not get so pissed off my blood pressure jumps whenever I look at the world.  Sure, I still get pissed, but I say a prayer and go on.  Loosen up a bit, man.  I'm not saying be happy with what's around you, but don't be so damn pissed off with it.

 

By the way, Mario, I have to agree with you.  I'm on your side, but I'm not going to go out and yell at the world over it.  I'm not say you are, mind you.  And about those people that did that dance, I'm betting they were so damn caught up in what they were doing and what people would think, they simply could not or would not comprehend/think about what was going to happen to them.  Bravo to that stuff.  Artisitic expression, my ass.  I saw it in a dance concert this past semester and some girls that weren't even technically in dance theater danced in a piece to "Put Your Back Into It" by Ice T and wondered why the director told them to never even think about doing something like that again.  Softcore in the middle of dances that people worked their asses off to get right and you expect her to be happy with it?

 

I hate Political Correctness....

Yes I admit this thread got me too caught up.  Moral and Political issues get me too caught up in things, that's why I changed my major.  

 

I also hate Political Correctness, on applications I will either mark two answers or put in no comment.  There is no correct word for what I'am, what the fuck is that about?!

[Guest]

No, it wasn't openly stated, but I think it's very clearly wrong.

It is very clearly wrong, because it's theft, plain and simple. I've never heard anyone say that, I've never noticed that attitude in anyone, and I don't think I've ever heard even an implicit argument for that position. It's completely untenable.

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

Mario, I must say, you have a very kick ass subtitle.

 

Hell, I'm still a contestant.  lol  Too bad I'm not marketable... er, unique.  (Note, last statement was meant as sarcasm, not to be taken seriously.)

[Guest Crazy Dan]

I agree with Ripper on all his points on this one.  Society will continually change, and with it there will always be problems and stuff that the old guard can't stand, it is called change.  Sure some would like to go back to the day of working a nine-to five, going home to your wife and 2.3 kids, conforming to what society tells you, and going to church each Sunday, because that is what all good moral up standing citizens do. (Not that I am saying that is good nor bad, that is what the fifities attitude was back then)  

 

But for me, I find this to be interesting times.  We are going into a new and interesting times.  Technology is better, medicine is better, and we are gaining a better understanding of who we are.  We have our share of problems, this very true.  But I think there is one major problem that hasn't been addressed:

 

Bad parenting:  Many people who should not be having kids are.  From teenagers all the way to hard working job holders.  It seems that many people have children without really knowing what it trully entails.  Many times I feel these people only have kids for status, or they think that they have to, instead of wanting to.  And what happens is that these parents don't really raise their kids correctly (like taking an active part in their kids lives, not paying enough attention, working so much that they aren't able to be there for their kids, and etc.) So these kids end up being raised by TV and such.  Or the kids go through real rough times, and since mommy and daddy don't pay enough attention to Jr., Jr either turns to drugs, suicide, or he gets in with his friends and goes and shoots up his high school(Columbine). And when this happens the parents instead of blaming themselves for being crappy parents, insteads blames every one else.  They blame the music the kids listen too.  The Colombine incident was blamed on Marilyn Manson and other bands like it.  It's like no one wants to take responsiblity any more.  If your kid is dumb enough to imitate a stunt of MTV, even after they show a warning, and he/she gets hurt, the parents atomatically shift blame to MTV, instead of themselves for not supervising their kids.  And the list goes on and on.

[Guest]

Fully agree on that point.

[Guest J*ingus]

A complete rebuttal, by Jingus McModerate.  

 

"I am an 18-year old conservative. Please, hold your shock til the end."

 

Young conservatives always make me wary.  You weren't there for the past, so why do you assume it was better?  (Older liberals worry me in a similar way.)  

 

"I'm sure most of you are flabbergasted, as conservatives are "evil" and want to destroy your lives. Those of you who think that, congratulations, you're another feces-spewing drone follower of the liberal media."

 

First of all, there is no need for preemptive hostility towards people you don't even know.  And secondly, there is no "THE Liberal Media".  That's a fallacy.  The media is made up of dozens of companies competiting with each other for money, not a giant monolithic conspiracy with the single goal of brainwashing the masses to conform to their single viewpoint.  

 

"You see, I'm a conservative because I have common sense."

 

And you're right, and everyone who disagrees with you is plain wrong, gotcha.  (sigh)

 

"I look at society today, and this is what I see: rampant and unabashed drug useage, underage sex and pregnancies, underage drinking, school shootings, Republicans being turned into demons in the eyes of the press and the masses, and abortion (although this is really a true debateable topic)."

 

I'll go over these point-by-point below.  

 

"Along with those, is a majority of Americans whole-heartedly supporting those insults to civilization."

 

Since America society is ruled by the majority, doesn't this mean that, by definition, you're wrong?  

 

"And it all boils down to one thing, people passing the buck. Not holding themselves RESPONSIBLE."

 

Proof?  Or at least theory arrived at through logical analysis?  

 

"To begin with, it'd help to take a summary of the course of the degradation society has had."

 

Use your own words, don't take those from others unless it's REALLY relevant or necessary.  

 

"This excerpt from the Marine Corps Gazette, a piece written by William S. Lind, does just that."

 

Who?  

 

""Starting in the mid-1960s, we have thrown away the values, morals, and standards that define traditional Western culture. In part, this has been driven by cultural radicals, people who hate our Judeo-Christian culture.""

 

Um, maybe because they're not Jews or Christians?  Come on, there are also Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Confucians, Shintos, Voudouns, Rastafarians, Wiccans, Pagans, Satanists, sun worshippers, atheists, agnostics, and a thousand other various groups.  They don't like it when they're told that they're irrevocably wrong and damned to hell.  

 

""Dominant in the elite, especially in the universities, the media, and the entertainment industries (now the most powerful force in our culture and a source of endless degradation), the cultural radicals have successfully pushed an agenda of moral relativism, militant secularism, and sexual and social "liberation". This agenda has slowly codified into a new ideology, usually known as "politcal correctness", that is in essence Marxism translated from economic into social and cultural terms.""

 

Even for a marine, this guy is strict.  I've read, and once heard myself, that a lot of soldiers consider themselves to be superior to the society that they serve.  That seems to be the case here.  And his quote marks around "liberation" bug the hell out of me.  

 

"The only problem in this paragraph is his use of the phrase "traditional Western culture"."

 

I agree that's a problem, but I think it's far from the only one.  

 

"This lends itself to different semantical attacks by the radicals, either under "tradition" or "Western culture", and thus allowing those radicals to sidestep the point."

 

You just said above that the MAJORITY disagree with this stance.  So how are they "radicals"?  

 

"I would replace "traditional Western culture" with "right from wrong.", as in "that define right from wrong.""

 

You know, there are relativities and shades of gray in this world.  You can't reduce anything to completely "right" or "wrong".  

 

"What he has basically said is that now, things that are bankrupt and void of any kind of civility, are now widely accepted and defended by people in our society."

 

And I thought my grammar was bad!  I'm not even sure what you said there.  

 

"Questioning of morals, values, and primciples."

 

Questioning is generally good.  The opposite of questioning is blind acceptance, which is generally bad.  

 

"The attempt to coddle and pander to the misguided whinings of peoples who wish for equality, have had it granted, and now wish to become dominant instead of equal."

 

Now I know you're both white and male.  That's okay, so am I, and it's not quite as much of a rose garden as some would have us believe.  But the fact is that women and racial minorities were nowhere near equal at the beginning of the 60's.  It's still not perfect now, but it is a lot better than it was.  

 

"These things, along with the list I mentioned in my first blurb, are the scourge of today's America."

 

Actually, I'd say that automobile wrecks, overeating, and terrorists piloting airplanes into buildings are America's biggest scourges, but nevermind.  

 

"The problem? People's mindsets. This is explained by retired Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard Trainor."

 

Once again: 1.Don't use the arguments of others, and 2.Who?  

 

""When I got out of boot camp in 1946, society was different.""

 

Of course it was.  Any society goes through major changes over the course of half a century.  

 

""It was more disciplined, and most Americans trusted the government...""

 

You don't suppose that the horrible mistakes that were Vietnam and Watergate, made by the government, might've undermined that trust just a little bit?  And not many of the presidents since then have been great examples of how to live one's life.  

 

""it was an entirely different society, one that thought more about its responsibilities than its 'rights'.""

 

Well, having the USSR and all its puppets aiming their nuclear weapons at you can do that.  And I'm annoyed again with the quotes around "rights".  

 

""People today have become lazy, selfish, complacent, and unmotivated.""

 

Of course a Marine could see it that way.  By nature, they are demanded to work their hardest, care for others more than themselves, always be ready for the next challenge, and keep themselves motivated.  Great ideals, if you can manage it.  Something like 80% of trainees in Marine boot camp can't.  And that's the people who WANTED to live that way.  

 

""Of course there were people like that back in 1946, but there were a mere handful. Today, mistrust and self-centeredness are the norm. People do not want to be responsible for anyone or anything, other people are mere fodder and stepstools to more and more power, money, and pleasure. Instead of caring about others, instead of trying to better society and progress society, people care more about getting laid, having shiny new things, of supposed fun over work.""

 

Is he saying that people should enjoy work over "supposed" fun?  

 

""This has led to the plagues, the vile "ideas" that now destroy the fabric of civilization.""

 

What has it destroyed?  What measurable goodness was present in 1946 that is absent now?  

 

"Drug Useage - Health and well-being are of no concern to drug users. They care only for the supplication of their addiction, and of their need to feel mere biological and hormonal stimulation than of emotional and intellectual wells being filled."

 

In a word, bullshit.  A good example would be wrestlers.  Some of them use illegal drugs in order to be a better asset to their company and their business.  

 

"Instead of the feeling of knowing you have made a person's day better, drug users would rather create a seedy black market,"

 

It's a black market because they're illegal, no other reason.  If they were legal, the black market would vanish.  

 

"wallow in the fog and haziness of a "high", and completely ignore the obstacles society must hurdle. Why? Because they want the stimulation, the selfish indulgence of a poison. Pathetic."

 

I'd wager this person has never been addicted to anything, or if he has, he doesn't consider it an addiction.  

 

"Underage Sex - More and more teenagers are having sex, and on top of that, more and more teenagers are having children."

 

As opposed to the 19th century and before, when girls were routinely married and pregnant by the age of 16, if not younger?  

 

"Yet no one really seems to find a problem in either of these, and why? They wish to pass the buck, it's another shirking of responsibility."

 

Um, "they" who?  Who is supposedly advocating underage sex?  

 

"People today claim to seperate lust and love, and they do, in only the wrong way. People will have sex with a person without loving them, instead of CONTAINING their primal need to be carnal. Instead of having self-control."

 

Any psychologist will tell you that containing a built-in feeling is unnatural, and very likely to cause harm.  The general repression of emotions is what tends to cause rapists and serial killers to do what they do.  

 

"And because of this, teenagers pick up on the vibe of "rampant sex with people is normal", and so delve into experimentation themselves, far before it is even RIGHT to start doing so."

 

I would agree that the saturation of sexual images and ideas in the media has an effect on children.  But when is it "RIGHT" to do so, and when is it not?  

 

"And of course, pregnancies are easily covered by abortion, aren't they?"

 

Hardly.  Abortions cost several hundred dollars, involve a lot of time and pain, and usually require parental notification if not consent.  

 

"Abortion - This is a debateable topic, truly, but I am against abortion, NOT because of the killing of a child (although that factors in), but for the fact that abortion is another passing of the buck. Instead of taking responsibility for your actions, your CHOICE, as an adult, you wish to slaughter a new life in order to have one less "hassle". Instead of being a parent. How sad and low these people are."  

 

It sounds to me like the killing of the unborn baby is still your main concern.  If not, why not talk about adoption in the same way?  

 

"Rape is the only justifiable source for an abortion."

 

I'd say that rape, incest, and danger to the mother's health are all highly justifiable, and don't understand most people who argue otherwise.  The other reasons are debatable.  

 

"School Shootings - Now that teachers are unable to truly teach a student (and parents do not choose to teach their child what to do and what not to do, either, if parents even stay together) right from wrong, with the loss of the ability to punish with a paddle,"

 

I have never agreed with corporal punishment in schools.  I get especially angry at those who would paddle students against their parents' wishes, which has happened countless times.  

 

"there has become a new wave in schools today. That of the clique, of the socially elite. Yes, it has always been around, but it is now enflammed in our age. People, bright and intelligent and FEELING people, are shunned, insulted, ostracized, and spat upon because they lack the social talents, or the physical talents, of those who are "popular"."

 

This has ALWAYS been the case.  It was just less obvious in earlier times, when children weren't allowed to even speak to each other in school.  

 

"These people then go home, to see their parents fall apart and divorce,"

 

Irrelevant.  Some of the biggest assholes and psychos I've known came from traditional two-parent families.  

 

"to their lack of friends, their news of crime, disgust, and corruption in society. This doesn't help nurture a soul, this destroys a soul and causes a Columbine."

 

True, but I don't know any good way of solving it.  And how did your original argument about moral decay wander into this diatribe against the popular kids in school?  

 

"Throwing the buck to "video games, music, and TV" is ignoring the problem at hand."

 

Very true.  They have an effect, but are trumped by much more powerful causes.  

 

"The problem of children and teens learning they can get away with whatever they want, without repercussion. Another shirking of responsibility by adults."

 

How so?  What do kids get away with?  I didn't know many people in high school who were made of teflon.  The Columbine murderers certainly didn't get away with anything, and didn't expect to; they pretty much knew they were going to die before they went in to school that day.  

 

In short, uh, no.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Ripper and Jingus are right on the money here.  Society will always have its good and bad points, and I think it's necessary to have a faith in the good while realizing the reality of the bad.  A blockhead, propaganda-spewing liberal is no different than a blockhead, propaganda-spewing conservative.  They're both blockheads. They both spew propaganda, and they both believe they know how to run your life, when in reality, they can't even run theirs.  This is the essential root of all wrong in society today, in that for the most part the people who have authority don't know what they're doing, and they don't know that they don't know what they're doing.   Authority in and of itself is not good or evil.  Like everything else, it depends on what it's used for...

 

P.S  Also a fervent enemy of any and all Political Correctness.  You get a whiff of that poison and you trun right into a soccer mom.......

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Society's decay is a natural part of human evolution. As man evolved and grew more intelligent ignorance was still great thus God was born. After thousands of years through scientific discovey and rationalism God was killed. When God died all those artificial morals and values died with him, the age of nihilism was born. Even though God is dead many out of desperation remain intoxicated by the stench of it's decomposition. It has been man's inability to cope with reality that has brought this age of nihilism to be. Many rely on the  ghost of God and it's long-obsolete notions, many believe in nothing at all and don't attempt to transcend this "nothingness" in a reasonable way, many are led by instincts, power-hungry instincts which promote violence, greed and extreme selfishness in an unsustainable manner. Man is a lost species, a complacent species full of potential which it squanders within a state of hopeless confusion. Man's saviour will only come with true progress and the birth of Nietzsche's "Overman." Until those who bring humanity downward perish, human civilization will itself be in a state of perpetual degeneration.

 

I also think it quite funny that if anything Jesus would lean liberal and not conservative yet the opposite is presented. Jesus is a glorified hippie and liberals and conservatives alike are a silly bunch.

[Guest]

I've read, and once heard myself, a lot of soldiers consider themselves to be superior to the society that they serve.  That seems to be the case here.

At this point I'd like to say that, in my experience, the vast majority of men and women in the United States military do not share Lind's sentiments, and do not consider themselves superior to their country in any way. Most are good, humble people, who serve out of a sense of duty and love and consider it a privilege to do so.

Unfortunately, as in any group of people, there are always fringe elements who shout louder than others, inflict disproportionate harm, and get more press.

 

That aside, well said, Jingus. A worthy and comprehensive addition to the other rebuttals in this thread.

[Guest TJH]

The fact is that in society today people refuse to be held accountable for their actions, i.e. parents saying that video games, movies etc. are behind behavioural problems when in reality they are at fault.

 

The majority of people have an idea that they never do wrong and someone else is responsible.

[Guest]

I have to agree with Jingus here, there's something creepy about young conservatives. Hell even as a Tory the whole idea of defining yourself as pro the status quo seems a bit bizarre.

 

Basically HHHandAngleRule (?) if you really want to blame anyone for the collapse of the Judaeo-Christian society in America then blame Reegan. It was Reegan who (rightly) put the indivual as king (or queen) and responsible for their own lives, which along with the Free Market is essentially Humanist and so entirely against traditional Evangelical and Catholic practice.

 

Also I wish rightwingers would stop with the whining on this board. At the last count I saw 2 maybe 3 leftwingers on this board and as for America as a whole you in country without trade unions, without socialism or even social demorcarcy and has FOX News and CNN following an essentially White House led news agenda.

 

But your the persucted minority.

 

P.S Good piece though

 

William

[Guest Anorak]

It's fashionable to mock the kind of views expressed in the original post but personally i agree with many of the sentiments, especially the parts about underage sex and columbine. The patronising tone of some of the first replies only helps to reinforce the points the post made.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<"I'm sure most of you are flabbergasted, as conservatives are "evil" and want to destroy your lives. Those of you who think that, congratulations, you're another feces-spewing drone follower of the liberal media."

 

First of all, there is no need for preemptive hostility towards people you don't even know.  And secondly, there is no "THE Liberal Media".  That's a fallacy.  The media is made up of dozens of companies competiting with each other for money, not a giant monolithic conspiracy with the single goal of brainwashing the masses to conform to their single viewpoint.  >>>

 

 

The media has an unquestioned left-wing bent. Is it INTENTIONAL? No---but when well over 80% of journalists vote for Gore (or Democrat in EVERY election), you can

state that they might not be the most believable people to allow to discuss political issues.

 

 

<<<"And it all boils down to one thing, people passing the buck. Not holding themselves RESPONSIBLE."

 

Proof?  Or at least theory arrived at through logical analysis?  >>>

 

There is a definite lack of personal responsibility. Everything is becoming a sickness nowadays. "I'm not a total whore---I'm a sex addict".

 

"Don't blame me for my drug usage. It's a disease".

 

PLEASE! People have defects---and most of them are, in fact, their own damned fault.

 

 

<<<"The attempt to coddle and pander to the misguided whinings of peoples who wish for equality, have had it granted, and now wish to become dominant instead of equal."

 

Now I know you're both white and male.  That's okay, so am I, and it's not quite as much of a rose garden as some would have us believe.  But the fact is that women and racial minorities were nowhere near equal at the beginning of the 60's.  It's still not perfect now, but it is a lot better than it was.>>>

 

 

SO, a SOLUTION to previous racism is---MORE racism?

 

Interesting.

 

 

<<<"Instead of the feeling of knowing you have made a person's day better, drug users would rather create a seedy black market,"

 

It's a black market because they're illegal, no other reason.  If they were legal, the black market would vanish.>>>

 

 

But the damage to society would be much greater.

 

Holland isn't exactly a panacea nowadays.

 

 

<<<"People today claim to seperate lust and love, and they do, in only the wrong way. People will have sex with a person without loving them, instead of CONTAINING their primal need to be carnal. Instead of having self-control."

 

Any psychologist will tell you that containing a built-in feeling is unnatural, and very likely to cause harm.  The general repression of emotions is what tends to cause rapists and serial killers to do what they do.>>>

 

 

So just do whatever the heck you want?

 

That, at the bare minimum, degrades society.

 

People MUST have self-control. They must learn to control some of their urges or else we have friggin' anarchy.  

 

 

<<<"These people then go home, to see their parents fall apart and divorce,"

 

Irrelevant.  Some of the biggest assholes and psychos I've known came from traditional two-parent families.>>>

 

 

But the breakdown of two-parent families HAS had a definite negative impact on society. That's not even a very debatable point.

 

Add into that parents who will divorce over the most asinine reasons and you have a problem.

 

If parents have a child, divorce should be BRUTALLY difficult to get.

 

 

<<<"The problem of children and teens learning they can get away with whatever they want, without repercussion. Another shirking of responsibility by adults."

 

How so?  What do kids get away with?  I didn't know many people in high school who were made of teflon.  The Columbine murderers certainly didn't get away with anything, and didn't expect to; they pretty much knew they were going to die before they went in to school that day.>>>

 

 

I've seen kids get away with plenty. Teachers have been ordered to not fail students they CAUGHT plagaizing papers. If a teacher fails too many students---even if it's warranted---parents will raise heck and demand grades get boosted. Kids will commit numerous offenses and their parents will find a way to get them out of all trouble when some harsh punishment might do the kid a lot of good.  

                -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<I have to agree with Jingus here, there's something creepy about young conservatives. Hell even as a Tory the whole idea of defining yourself as pro the status quo seems a bit bizarre.>>>

 

 

Conservatives in America are classical liberals. Heck, the liberals in the country are the most married to maintaining the status quo.

 

 

<<<Basically HHHandAngleRule (?) if you really want to blame anyone for the collapse of the Judaeo-Christian society in America then blame Reegan. It was Reegan who (rightly) put the indivual as king (or queen) and responsible for their own lives, which along with the Free Market is essentially Humanist and so entirely against traditional Evangelical and Catholic practice.>>>

 

 

No, Reagan said the individual can live their life and make decisions better than the GOVERNMENT--and he was 100% right there.

 

He didn't say that people always made the best choices.

 

 

<<<Also I wish rightwingers would stop with the whining on this board. At the last count I saw 2 maybe 3 leftwingers on this board and as for America as a whole you in country without trade unions, without socialism or even social demorcarcy and has FOX News and CNN following an essentially White House led news agenda.

 

But your the persucted minority.>>>

 

 

CNN a right-wing instrument?

 

BWA HA HA HA HA!

 

Conservatives ARE treated like crap in this country.

 

How many conservative professors (ANY discipline) are in college? How many are major op-ed writers or appear on TV as news readers (which is all Rather et al are)? How often are conservative ideas portrayed in anything but the most ridiculous light? Heck, shall I go back over the numerous conservative grievances over the coverage of the 2000 election?

 

If you legitimately think that CNN is a tool of the Bush administration, then you're willfully ignorant on the subject.

                -=Mike

[Guest Ripper]

I'm not saying that society isn't messed up.  I'm not saying drug usage, teenaged sex and other things are right.  What I am saying is that it has existed for hundreds of years, and to act like that the country was a utopia before those damn hippies changed it all is ridiculous.  

 

This country has never been that damn great.  We have alot of personal freedoms(of which I am damn proud of) but those freedoms will always lead to moral decay.  Amsterdam has amazing personal freedoms, and look at them.  Olden times way of thinking just has always been disgusting to me.  If a man has a lot of sex he is just a man but if for god sakes don't let a woman enjoy sex, she is a dirty whore.  Its okay for single men to have casual sex, but a dedicated, long term monagamous and faithful homosexual relationship is evil and they should burn in hell.  Alot of the problems that are in the country now are due to the warped beliefs of the early America.  If we keep hyping that time as the perfect time, what does that really say.  Society would be better if women were to stay home and wait to get married, blacks only had low income, manual labour jobs and getting subpar education and loss the ability to vote?  What was great about these times.  

 

And one parent doing a good job is always 1000 times better than one parent doing a shitty job and the other doing good.  Alot of single parent homes are that way for the best.  People get divorced for a reason...reasons that no one can ever claim to know.  Noone is really equiped to say if the reasoning is stupid or not.  The people involved know if they should be married or not.  Yeah, in the good ol days, divorce was very rare...of course if a man hit his wife for not having dinner ready, that was understandable back then.  It was acceptable for a man to have women on the side, it was only a disgrace if they had a child.  It was ok back then for a man to take sex from his wife if she didnt want to have it(yeah, it wasn't as rare as it may sound, rape was considered impossible in a marrige back then and sexually abuse wives weren't that rare" I will sacrafice a better divorce rate over people staying in unhappy relationships anyday.

 

I wrote a paper on this when I was a senior in highschool.  I had a lot of percentatges and numbers then, but that was a while back and I don't really remember it all.  Bottom line is that if you look deep enough, society was a lot worse in those times than they are now.

[Guest ant_7000]

I agree with Ripper on this that society in the past wasn't perfect, Society is always changing for the better and for the worse, hell in 20 years we'll look back at 2002 and say those were the "good ol days."

[Guest J*ingus]

"The media has an unquestioned left-wing bent. Is it INTENTIONAL? No---but when well over 80% of journalists vote for Gore (or Democrat in EVERY election), you can

state that they might not be the most believable people to allow to discuss political issues."

 

I'm just tired of hearing about The Liberal Big Media as if it were all controlled by about five guys sitting around in a secret meeting room somewhere, directing the fate of the country, when that's not the case.  

 

"There is a definite lack of personal responsibility. Everything is becoming a sickness nowadays. "I'm not a total whore---I'm a sex addict". "Don't blame me for my drug usage. It's a disease". PLEASE! People have defects---and most of them are, in fact, their own damned fault."

 

Having known both sex addicts and alcoholics, believe me, those diseases are quite real.  Call it lack of self control or whatever semantic term you want, but the fact is that there are people out there who can't help what they do.  

 

"SO, a SOLUTION to previous racism is---MORE racism? Interesting."  

 

Where did I ever say this?  

 

"But the damage to society would be much greater. Holland isn't exactly a panacea nowadays."  

 

Arguable, but this guy seemed pissed off by the existence of the black market itself.  By definition, any illegal product will only be available through a black market.  

 

"So just do whatever the heck you want? That, at the bare minimum, degrades society. People MUST have self-control. They must learn to control some of their urges or else we have friggin' anarchy."  

 

Some, yeah.  But let's face it, preaching abstinence in this day & age is doomed to failure.  Nobody wants to be told "don't EVER do it!".  

 

"But the breakdown of two-parent families HAS had a definite negative impact on society. That's not even a very debatable point. Add into that parents who will divorce over the most asinine reasons and you have a problem. If parents have a child, divorce should be BRUTALLY difficult to get."

 

I'd debate that point for the simple reason that after my parents got divorced, my life if anything got better.  

 

"I've seen kids get away with plenty. Teachers have been ordered to not fail students they CAUGHT plagaizing papers. If a teacher fails too many students---even if it's warranted---parents will raise heck and demand grades get boosted. Kids will commit numerous offenses and their parents will find a way to get them out of all trouble when some harsh punishment might do the kid a lot of good."  

 

I've seen those cases in the news too, and I really think they're the very worst .001% that gets reported.  At my high school, if you plagarized, you got failed.  And if you failed, you stayed failed, period.  I never saw firsthand any case like the outlandish ones described.  The only one that even came close was when one kid was expelled for a stabbing, and his parents contested it.  But guess what: the school board told them to fuck off, and the suspension held.  And I still maintain that, outside of courts of law, NOBODY has the right to physically punish a child against the parents' wishes.

[Guest]

I have a major problem with governments sanctioning marriage anyway. Divorce isn't even an issue for me. So one person doesn't want to live with another person anymore. Excuse me, where the fuck does anyone else come in?

[Guest TheMikeSC]

"The media has an unquestioned left-wing bent. Is it INTENTIONAL? No---but when well over 80% of journalists vote for Gore (or Democrat in EVERY election), you can state that they might not be the most believable people to allow to discuss political issues."

 

I'm just tired of hearing about The Liberal Big Media as if it were all controlled by about five guys sitting around in a secret meeting room somewhere, directing the fate of the country, when that's not the case.  >>>

 

 

Most conservatives recognize that the media is highly biased, but it's not intentional. They assume everybody thinks like they do.

 

To use a quote from Pauline Kael: "McGovern LOST? How can that be? Everybody I know voted for him".

 

 

<<<"There is a definite lack of personal responsibility. Everything is becoming a sickness nowadays. "I'm not a total whore---I'm a sex addict". "Don't blame me for my drug usage. It's a disease". PLEASE! People have defects---and most of them are, in fact, their own damned fault."

 

Having known both sex addicts and alcoholics, believe me, those diseases are quite real.  Call it lack of self control or whatever semantic term you want, but the fact is that there are people out there who can't help what they do. >>>

 

 

They absolutely CAN help it. They CHOOSE not to.  

 

 

<<<"SO, a SOLUTION to previous racism is---MORE racism? Interesting."  

 

Where did I ever say this?  

 

"But the damage to society would be much greater. Holland isn't exactly a panacea nowadays."  

 

Arguable, but this guy seemed pissed off by the existence of the black market itself.  By definition, any illegal product will only be available through a black market. >>>

 

 

Using the logic, though, we'd end the problem of the crime of murder by legalizing it.

 

 

<<<"So just do whatever the heck you want? That, at the bare minimum, degrades society. People MUST have self-control. They must learn to control some of their urges or else we have friggin' anarchy."  

 

Some, yeah.  But let's face it, preaching abstinence in this day & age is doomed to failure.  Nobody wants to be told "don't EVER do it!".  >>>

 

 

And telling them to use condoms has been such an effective tool up to this point, right? Educating them on "good birth control"---that has kept us towards the bottom of the industrialized world when it comes to teenage pregnancy, right?

 

 

<<<"But the breakdown of two-parent families HAS had a definite negative impact on society. That's not even a very debatable point. Add into that parents who will divorce over the most asinine reasons and you have a problem. If parents have a child, divorce should be BRUTALLY difficult to get."

 

I'd debate that point for the simple reason that after my parents got divorced, my life if anything got better.  >>>

 

 

And you're a rarity. There is not a single study that can point to the prevalence of divorce having an even moderately positive impact.

 

 

<<<"I've seen kids get away with plenty. Teachers have been ordered to not fail students they CAUGHT plagaizing papers. If a teacher fails too many students---even if it's warranted---parents will raise heck and demand grades get boosted. Kids will commit numerous offenses and their parents will find a way to get them out of all trouble when some harsh punishment might do the kid a lot of good."  

 

I've seen those cases in the news too, and I really think they're the very worst .001% that gets reported.  At my high school, if you plagarized, you got failed.  And if you failed, you stayed failed, period.  I never saw firsthand any case like the outlandish ones described.>>>

 

 

I had a friend who drove drunk REPEATEDLY in high school and his mother not only paid big money to buy him lawyers to keep him out of jail---she bought him brand-new cars to replace the ones he totalled.

 

 

<<<The only one that even came close was when one kid was expelled for a stabbing, and his parents contested it.  But guess what: the school board told them to fuck off, and the suspension held.  And I still maintain that, outside of courts of law, NOBODY has the right to physically punish a child against the parents' wishes. >>>

 

 

No argument here--however, a school should have the right to expel students who are disruptive.

                     -=Mike

[Guest RetroRob215]

<<<"There is a definite lack of personal responsibility. Everything is becoming a sickness nowadays. "I'm not a total whore---I'm a sex addict". "Don't blame me for my drug usage. It's a disease". PLEASE! People have defects---and most of them are, in fact, their own damned fault."

 

Having known both sex addicts and alcoholics, believe me, those diseases are quite real.  Call it lack of self control or whatever semantic term you want, but the fact is that there are people out there who can't help what they do. >>>

 

 

They absolutely CAN help it. They CHOOSE not to.

Do you seriously think alcoholism is something a person can control?  Alcoholism is considered a "disease" for a reason, it doesn't go away on it's own, proper treament is necessary and even after going through a state of withdrawl, the person is still an alcoholic.  Alcoholism is a genetic trait that can be passed down from generation to generation.  People can't control what traits they get from there parents and grandparents.  If you think they can they I guess you also think people can control whether or not they have heart problems or cancer.  

 

You can't assume someone will be able to overcome any kind of addiction on their own and that is not because to chose not to.  Some people lack will power, some people need a push in the right direction, and some people just need another person to step in and take control of their problem.  

 

I watched a program on AIDS the today.  This 25-year old homosexual had AIDS.  His Catholic family visited him once and disowned him afterwards, they said "He chose this lifestyle, so now he can die."  People can't CHOOSE which genes and traits they are born, that is a fact.

[Guest]

Uh, homosexuality is a behaviour, not a genetic disease.