Why must they always do this to Jericho . . .

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

"Hey come on now. Hogan got huge pops in 2002 and his title run was great for business."

 

Are you a fucking idiot?

 

Seriously, Hogan's title win was "good" and "received a good pop" at Backlash, but look at this:

 

1) The HHH/Hogan match was awful.

2) Once the fans realized they'd be getting awful Hogan matches, they groaned.  Uh, Regal Vs. Hogan Raw main event?  :::piss break:::

 

Hogan's "nostalgia run" would've worked just as well without the ridiculous notion of him winning the title.  It devalued the title, and made WWF/E look like hypocrites.  JR and Lawler went from bashing WCW's "washed up old men in a cage" fighting for a title to BLOWING THEIR LOAD over Hogan some 5 years later doing the same thing.

 

The WWE Title scene from January 2002 - Vengeance 2002 was absolutely awful.  Perhaps the best thing to come from that, which I can't believe I'm saying, would be Jeff friggin' Hardy and Taker's ladder match, which was medicore, but holds a place in some people's hearts due to the awful nature of everything else in the title scene at that time.

 

To summarize:

 

Hogan's pops were huge when HE PLAYED A HEEL a month BEFORE his title win.  You putting the title win and his pops together is silly.

 

And good for business?  Prove this.  By the time the next "BIG NAME" PPV (SummerSlam 2002) rolled around, Hogan was kicked to the curb...guess why?  Because they wanted to *Gasp* PUT ON A GOOD SHOW...and...*GASP*...get a good buyrate!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe he was being sarcastic.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Pay attention, ok?

 

1)It was sarcasm. It was a well-known fact that Hogans run was bad for business. Not to mention it went against the very point HTQ (and I to a lesser extent) were arguing.

2) "Hulk Hogan was near 50 when he was the most over guy on the show, the fans loved to see him, but it was clear that the fans didn't necessarily pay to see his PPV's as champ or tune into the television shows with him as champ. So, in that case, the fans wanted to see him but they didn't want to see him as the top guy. "

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I thought the ECW PPV was a good step in listening to your audience especially if it got 800K buys. I think if the draft is a bust and nothing changes, that's when the company will hit rock bottom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Expand on how the ECW PPV was a good step in listening to the WWE audience.

[Guest Andrew J.]

Anybody with charisma and a modicum of wrestling ability could be bought as a legitimate main eventer by the fans if they get pushed long enough and hard enough. Jericho's not any different than, say, Bradshaw in that regard, it's just that Vince is never going to push him like that. His past win/loss record or his current popularity are irrelevant. It's not just creative that has short memories-it's the casual fans, too.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Cept if they continually get buried for 5 straight years. Then they're fucked.

 

RRR: Thinking the notion of 5 years is lost on some people.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Memory isn't the issue, it's conditioning. Fans have been conditioned to see Jericho as bridesmaid and not a bride.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

It's not just creative that has short memories-it's the casual fans, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That right there is one of the biggest mistakes that promoters make when it comes to fans; underestimating their intelligence and their memories.

 

In fact, here's one promoter's view on that:

 

``My dad always had a saying, `You promote what the fans want, not what you want.`

The minute you start trying to outsmart them, saying they`re not too bright - they are very bright and

they remember what you do - you get in trouble trying to outsmart them instead of doing the basics.``

- Jim Crockett Jr., owner of WCW before Ted Turner, May 1993.

[Guest JMA]

WWE probably could establish Jericho as a solid main-eventer again, but it would take many victories over top-tier opponents and very few losses for him. That being said, they don't want to, so the point is moot.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I don't see the current fanbase buying Jericho as a champion because he's seen as just a regular guy who's over, goes out and puts on solid matches. The marketing of Jericho hasn't conditioned any of the fans to buy him as a contender because of the angle's he's involved in. Pretty much is in the spot that Benoit was holding in WCW. Solid midcarder, can be depended upon to put over new talent and deliver when asked.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Bradshaw also had a complete character makeover and worked to improve tenfold, both as a wrestler and as a talker. I don't see that happening with Jericho. Jericho is the same wrestler as he was in 1998. Bradshaw is completely different from what he was even 18 months ago.

 

Even then it took JBL about 6 months or so to truly get over, and this by that point he had proven himself as a main eventer and gone over every big contender on Smackdown save Angle & Show (which he would do shortly).

[Art Sandusky 0]

I think Jericho can still be saved, optimist that I am. It means going to Smackdown in my mind, but either way I think he can be credible and in the main event again. The window is closing pretty fast though.

[Dangerous A 0]

He could be saved, but he would need a total makeover. He'd have to change everything about him. As Kahran brought up, JBL was just Bradshaw, one half of the APA before his ME run. Jericho would need costume changes as well as tweaking his in ring style, which would be the most difficult thing to do.

[Art Sandusky 0]

I hate to keep referencing the show since everyone's doing it anymore, but the quick match Jericho had at ONS surprised me in that he went out there and hit the usual signature spots, but the rest of the match felt different and in the good way. It made me kinda get behind him again after a series of disappointments following the Michaels program at Wrestlemania XIX. I think he can switch up and freshen his style if he wants.

[zyn081 0]

That's one of the reasons I liked Jericho's match at One Night Stand, he wrestled a totally different style (his old style). I'd love to see the return of "Lionheart" Chris Jericho and the Liontamer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

On the basis of that, I think that he can change his ring style. Its not a matter of booking. Its for Jericho to make a conscious decision to toughen up in the ring. Hes given the booking of his match, but there are elements of that that he can change as to how the match will play out. He can mix up his arsenal.

 

Switching from a heel to a face for no reason, specifically when your new gimmick dictates that you don't care about anything, is pretty weak.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats my point. I cant see why they turned him.

 

Memory isn't the issue, it's conditioning.  Fans have been conditioned to see Jericho as bridesmaid and not a bride.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes they have, but in marketing terms you just take him off the shelf, repackage him and relaunch him.

[The Dames 0]

Even if they do repackage him, it's ultimately up to WWE to push him correctly. If Jericho notices that its all for naught due to the booking, he'll continue to half ass it.

 

Dames

[Eclipse 0]

Just putting my word into this thread. Basically, like others have said, people will remember Jericho's past achievements, but NOTHING like that is coming Y2J's way. He won't EVER be a main eventer again, and he will NEVER have the World Championship, as long as HHH is on RAW, and the fact that the WWE doesn't see him as a viable champ.

[Jericholic82 0]

I think that his world title reign flopped from the start because they put it on him seemingly out of nowhere. Sure he had upset Rock for the WCW title at No Mercy, but he still wasn't a true main eventer at that point. Most fans even the smarks didn't think that he'd be the one to unify the titles. As such when he did, the people just didn't accept it. I have heard numerous fans at shows complain about how it was Jericho who unified the title, which leads me to believe that his beliveability as a main level guy was damaged even before the lame duck transitional champ regin. That being said the WWF at the time obviously didn't want him to succeed as champ as they had already planned out HHH's triumphant return as the conquering babyface at WM. If the title run was handled differently, perhaps he would have "drawn" better as champ, but that would negate the preconceived plans of the WWF. Cleary HHH never got over as a big face as Vince thought he would, and thus he made the mistake of putting the belt on Hogan who was getting nostaligia pops and reactions.

 

 

One of the biggest problems and complaints about Vince is that he is always reluctant to change with the times. He contiunues to stick with the angles and character types that did well in the past (ie trying to build Luger, Then Nash as the "new hogan" in the mid 90s, to the current day as he desperately tries to hang onto the attitude era and find a "new Stone Cold"- his latest flop being Randy Orton's failed face run on RAW) He also hates to change things when fans dictate them, but he was forced to when Batista got too over and Orton was not accepted by the fans. Even then, since his face turn Batista has been watered down and made to look like a fool.

 

I myself am not as fervently a Jericho fan as I once was, as his character has been so messed around and his ringstyle so toned down, that I don't find him as entertaining as I once did and know he can still be (Infact the reason I chose the name Jericholic when I first came on these forums was becuase it was Feb of 02, near the end of his terrible run as champ and I was so pissed about his mistreatment that I went out of my way to show my displeasure and my loyalty to my favoorite wrestler). This is why I don't try to even argue anymore about whether he should have beaten Michaels or not. I try to convince myself it doesn't matter. I have lost a lot of my passion for pro wrestling as it becomes clear that the people providing this entertainment form to us don't give a damn what any of us care, despite the fact that we are responsible for the big houses and fancy cars the bigwigs at WWE have. If it weren't for I guess force of habit and lack of competition I probably wouldn't even be watching any WWE progams or PPVs anymore. And perhaps I shouldn't.

 

The sad things is that we all know it can be better. And that is the reason why we do complain, not to be know-it alls, but because we know it can be better and we do want it to succees.

 

 

I don't blame Chris for allowing this crap to happen as it is his job and he needs to put food on his table.

 

Hell we know he can be the whiny, arrogant heel and still be beliveable, just witness his WCW heel run. People complain about how WCW mistreated wrestlers, but actually they gave a hell of a lot more respect to Jericho than the WWF/E ever has. Well at least before his legs got cut out from under him, he at least he won matches cleanly and didn't always have to cheat. That's what made him an even stronger heel. But no one in WWE is willing to job to anyone else in fear oh losing their spot.

 

And though I hate to sound like every other smark on the net, why is there no room for another top heel when HHH is on the show? And why must it be him to be the only heel who can win cleanly most of the time?

 

Vince better be happy that there is no competition at this time, because if there was a strong one, he might be in trouble.

 

As for Jericho, once again though he is getting a main eventish spot (we all know what the real main event at Vengeance is), it has come so out of nowhere and out of the dropped "Jericho doesn't care angle". I have no problem if that angle were to lead to him rediscovering his passion and having a main event run, but not within 2 weeks.

 

I fear for Cena (who is still legitamtely over and selling merchandise like crazy), as he has already had to be pushed to the side due to HHH (as like at Mania where yes he did win the title, but in such a lame match with such a pedestrian finish -when we have seen what kind of match he and JBK could put out with no restrictions- so as to not steal any heat from HHH's big moment in the main event.) Clearly the triple threat is an afterthought as Trips gets ANOTHER TITLE MATCH in "his match" the HIAC. Just as Benoit was overshadowed last year at the June PPV.

 

 

Despte the old WWF attitude commercial, it's quite the contrary, Vince just doesn't "Get it"

[Dangerous A 0]

Vince only "gets it" when challenged. That is why WCW and ECW going under are such huge events. Vince now doesn't have any reasonable opposition that can provide an alternative when Vince's show gets stale, forcing him to adjust even the slightest.(sorry TNA fans, but your show isn't viable competition)

[Lord of The Curry 0]

TNA is only competition in the sense of "Let's snatch up the best indy guys before they can become stars somewhere else but never use them".

[SuperJerk 0]

I have a crazy scheme to turn Jericho into a main-eventer that involves the Undertaker putting him over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See? I told you it was a crazy scheme.

[Jericholic82 0]

Yes they have done it again. The reason Jericho is motivated to get a title shot-you guessed it, he wants more record sales.

 

I think that is enough said about the mindset of WWE.

[Shooting Star 0]

"Hey come on now. Hogan got huge pops in 2002 and his title run was great for business."

 

Are you a fucking idiot?

 

Seriously, Hogan's title win was "good" and "received a good pop" at Backlash, but look at this:

 

1) The HHH/Hogan match was awful.

2) Once the fans realized they'd be getting awful Hogan matches, they groaned.  Uh, Regal Vs. Hogan Raw main event?  :::piss break:::

 

Hogan's "nostalgia run" would've worked just as well without the ridiculous notion of him winning the title.  It devalued the title, and made WWF/E look like hypocrites.  JR and Lawler went from bashing WCW's "washed up old men in a cage" fighting for a title to BLOWING THEIR LOAD over Hogan some 5 years later doing the same thing.

 

The WWE Title scene from January 2002 - Vengeance 2002 was absolutely awful.  Perhaps the best thing to come from that, which I can't believe I'm saying, would be Jeff friggin' Hardy and Taker's ladder match, which was medicore, but holds a place in some people's hearts due to the awful nature of everything else in the title scene at that time.

 

To summarize:

 

Hogan's pops were huge when HE PLAYED A HEEL a month BEFORE his title win.  You putting the title win and his pops together is silly.

 

And good for business?  Prove this.  By the time the next "BIG NAME" PPV (SummerSlam 2002) rolled around, Hogan was kicked to the curb...guess why?  Because they wanted to *Gasp* PUT ON A GOOD SHOW...and...*GASP*...get a good buyrate!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Damn man....calm the fuck down...it was pretty obvious he was being sarcastic