Another suicide bombing

[Guest Crazy Dan]

There was another suicide bombing.  And since there has been many other posts about this topic, I feel that I should share with you a politcal cartoon that I saw in my local paper, one which I think offers the best solution for the Palestinians, because if they keep up withthese bombings, they will lose all support from those who might be able to bring peace to that war torn region.

 

The Political Cartoon shows two Palestinians standing in a war torn street.  One of them faces a poster of a suicide bomber. The title of the Poster reads "Martyr".  The one facing the poster says "We're desperate.  What other choice do we have?"  The other Palestinian then looks at another wall, and there lies two posters.  One shows Ghandi and the other shows Martin Luther King.  

 

First I will say that those are two men whom I admire, because they accomplished so much through non violent means.  Violence doesn't solve any problems, it just causes more problems, and in the case of the Palestinians, it's making their case a more and more lost cause.  I feel that if the Palestinians really want to make advances, they really need to look into the teachings of these two Great Men, and go down the path of non-violence.  I think they would find that they would gain more sympathy, and might eventually get their own home land.  Of course this is better said then done.  

 

Overall I really thought that cartoon says whole lot.  And even Bill O'Reilly even mentioned that Palestinians should be doing it more like Ghandi, than the way that the are doing, so someone else agrees, indirectly at least.

[Guest]

I went to the Memorial Museum today. Not many do, these days. In some sense that's understandable; it's hardly the most pleasant thing in the world. But it has to be done. We must know, we must understand, and we must remember. We must not allow ourselves to forget.

 

It was my seventh visit and my date's second. At one exhibit she fell to her knees and started sobbing into her hands. I can't blame her.

 

I won't say what it was. There are no words, none. No words can begin to convey the depths of the horror. I too was crying when we left, several hours later.

 

This is what the Palestinian puppetmasters want. This is what Arafat is bringing back into the world. This is the charnel face of the intifada. This is the evil that moral relativists and semantic contortionists systematically deny. We can't let any of them succeed.

 

Never. Never again.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Well, Marney, the mere fact that Europe seems so willing to sacrifice Israel has shown me that they learned NOTHING from history.

 

Palestine is a state run by a horrid little cabal of monkeys with nary an ounce of believability, trust, or goodness in their beings. As you, I, and several others have re-stated here time and time again, Arafat CLEARLY does not want peace and this incident definitely shows that, in my own darned opinion.

 

I'm not Jewish at all, but how any non-Jew can miss the never-ending wave of hatred that they've had to live through is mind-boggling.

 

And that so many seem to expect them to live through it for even longer is insane.

               -=Mike

[Guest DrTom]

"And even Bill O'Reilly even mentioned that Palestinians should be doing it more like Ghandi, than the way that the are doing, so someone else agrees, indirectly at least."

 

I think a lot of people agree.  There are many people who haven't been duped by the Arafat-loving, moral relativist press and realize that Yasser is a puppet  of the extreme Muslim regimes that fund his continuing terror campaign.  He is a thug on the most basic of levels, and I am saddened the Israelis didn't just kill the bastard when they had his building surrounded.  There won't be peace over there as long as he's alive, unless Israel just goes around and shoots all the Palestinians in the head.  Not that I'd particularly object to that solution, mind you.

[Guest fatmanfoleyfan]

The ongoing suicide bombings killing Israeli innocents are horrific, to say the least. But just as horrific is the brutal occupation of Palestinian land, resulting in the deaths of thousands upon thousands of innocent Palestinians. Israeli retaliation is often cited as providing a justifiable means for such actions, yet suicide bombings are simply dismissed as acts of terror. Both are as bad as each other, yet there is this constant refusal in admitting it.  

 

The numerous statements which I've read often show a complete disgust of Arafat, and the constant 'fact' that it is he who persists with the violence, and it is he whom refuses to negotiate. Agreed, the Arafat government is a bad one, and it has been known to worsen the effects of the occupation, but that's just the point. There is an Occupation, and an illegal one, at that. The Israeli government, and US Foreign Policy have on numerous occasions in the past foiled attempts at negotiations saying that Arab states and the P.L.O maintain a 'rejectionist' attitude, when it was infact neighbouring Arab States and the P.L.O whom attempted it, by acknowledging Israel's right to exist. However, the Israeli government has consistently shown their disapproval of giving Palestinians rights, and as evidenced by their current leader, Ariel Sharon, things aren't necessarily going to change. Ariel Sharon should be facing a War Criminals court. This is the man who is responsible for the Sabra & Shatilla Massacre, 1982, in which 3000 Palestinian and Lebanese innocents were brutally killed. Ariel Sharon has maintained a hardline policy towards the Palestinian people, he is an evil man interested in only the deaths of Palestinian innocents. The Israeli citizens who elected him were understandably looking for security, but what must be understood is that maintaining the occupation will never establish security in Israel. The occupation of Palestinian land, which denies basic rights to Palestinians, such as water, agriculture, security etc, isn't stopping suicide bombers. The Israeli Military incursions, the ones which supposedly 'root out terrorists' results in the deaths of innocent Palestinians, total destruction of villages, and the homes of Palestinians, their livelihood, being demolished. The settlement buildings and land expropriation is not stopping attacks on Israeli civilians. The only two options left are to either withdraw from the territories leading to a creation of a Palestinian state in which all peoples can live side by side with equal rights or simply the mass killing of all Palestinians.

 

The Israeli government has a bit to lose, upon withdrawl from the illegally occupied territories. The Palestinian slave labourers who produce so much for Israel to amass profit, the settlements which are used for production, and the water facilities abused to circulate upto a 1/3 of the water in Israel will be gone. It's simply security and peace over profits.

 

There is a distinction to be made. Israel does not represent the entire Jewish race, but people often mis-interpret criticism of Israel, as anti-Jewish sentiment. Far from it, there are many many Jewish people who are opposed to Israeli actions, and who support a Palestinian state. There are also Israeli civilians opposed to the actions of their government, and who wish for a Palestinian state to be created.

 

It is interesting that the Holocaust is brought up. This is the very tragedy that is often exploited by people to somehow justify the actions of Israel. In no way am I accusing any of you of doing such a thing, but the Holocaust is a subject that shouldn't be brought up when discussing the Israel/Palestine issue. People are blinding themselves with anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, in their attempts to justify the actions of Israel.

 

As for Ghandi, here's a quote I found:

 

"Gandhi on the Palestine conflict – 1938

 

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs…As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds."

 

Mahatma Gandhi quoted in

"A Land of Two Peoples"ed. Mendes-Flohr"

[Guest]

yet suicide bombings are simply dismissed as acts of terror.

That is precisely what they are.

 

Both are as bad as each other, yet there is this constant refusal in admitting it.

Because it isn't true. The IDF is scrupulous in avoiding civilian casualties. The Palestinians deliberately try to inflict them. Claiming that the two sides are morally equivalent isn't just false, it's obscene.

 

the Holocaust is a subject that shouldn't be brought up when discussing the Israel/Palestine issue

Wrong. Utterly and absolutely wrong. When Palestinian children are weaned on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, when the surrounding Arab states publish official newspapers claiming that Jews drink the blood of human children at their religious ceremonies, when the terrorist organisations nursed and sheltered by Arafat and his masters call Jews the literal spawn of dogs and apes, it absolutely should be brought up. The Palestinian intifada isn't about establishing a Palestinian state. It never has been. It is about destroying Israel as a state and murdering Jews as a people. The Palestinians themselves have said in so many words that Oslo was a deliberate blind in order to regroup for total war. These aren't "conspiracy theories."

Anti-Semitism is alive and well. It is the elan vital of Arab terrorism. What will it take to convince you? Another Dachau?

[Guest fatmanfoleyfan]

Because it isn't true. The IDF is scrupulous in avoiding civilian casualties. The Palestinians deliberately try to inflict them. Claiming that the two sides are morally equivalent isn't just false, it's obscene.

 

In the last 18 months, there have been over 1500 Palestinian deaths. Were all of them collaborators of terrorist attacks, or all plotting suicide bombings? Of course not. I can honestly document hundreds of offences the IDF has committed against Palestinian citizens. The force used by the Israeli military is state-sanctioned terror. Therefore, if we are to label suicide bombers terrorists, I see no reason as to why those who maintain the occupation with violence, using tanks etc, should not be regarded as terrorists.

 

Wrong. Utterly and absolutely wrong. When Palestinian children are weaned on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, when the surrounding Arab states publish official newspapers claiming that Jews drink the blood of human children at their religious ceremonies, when the terrorist organisations nursed and sheltered by Arafat and his masters call Jews the literal spawn of dogs and apes, it absolutely should be brought up. The Palestinian intifada isn't about establishing a Palestinian state. It never has been. It is about destroying Israel as a state and murdering Jews as a people. The Palestinians themselves have said in so many words that Oslo was a deliberate blind in order to regroup for total war. These aren't "conspiracy theories."

Anti-Semitism is alive and well. It is the elan vital of Arab terrorism. What will it take to convince you? Another Dachau?

 

That's my specific gripe, this inane assumption that the mainstream press in Arab society is filled with anti-Semitic slurs. Yes, it's true, underground publications print hateful propaganda against the Jewish race. Of course, this is wrong, but the point is that it happens on the side of Israel too. The instigated hatred on both sides is simply exploited more by propaganda campaigns. Of course there is anti-Semitism, and there are the ignorant idiots out there who believe that the actions of Israel are a direct representation of the Jewish race as a whole. But this is not helped by the exploitation of anti-Semitism by the Israeli government. The Holocaust itself has been exploited by several organizations to aid Israel, which in turn has left a few victims of the Holocaust with no monetary compensation whatsoever.

 

This bitter hatred exists, but you've yet to state that it also exists on the part of Israel, especially within the Israeli government.

 

The Palestinian people have been denied their right to determination, and it's truly frustrating that many people are unaware of the history of the conflict, instead only being told that a Palestinian equates to a terrorist.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<The ongoing suicide bombings killing Israeli innocents are horrific, to say the least. But just as horrific is the brutal occupation of Palestinian land, resulting in the deaths of thousands upon thousands of innocent Palestinians.>>>

 

 

Hmm, you mean like the "thousands" killed in Jenin? Such outright lies do such disservice to the Palestinian claims.

 

 

<<<Israeli retaliation is often cited as providing a justifiable means for such actions, yet suicide bombings are simply dismissed as acts of terror.>>>

 

 

Because homicide bombings ARE acts of terror committed by sub-human little monkeys devoid of rational thought. The ONLY plus is that in one of the two bombings yesterday, the bomber died and didn't hurt anybody else in the process.

 

As somebody stated, "suicide bomber" is such a misnomer---one can easily commit suicide with a bomb and not kill anybody but themselves.

 

 

<<<Both are as bad as each other, yet there is this constant refusal in admitting it.>>>

 

 

No, they're not as bad.

 

Palestinians target civilians. Israel does not.

Palestinians initiate the violence. Israel does not.

Palestinians are governed by sub-human monkeys with no accountability. Israel is not.  

 

 

<<<The numerous statements which I've read often show a complete disgust of Arafat>>>

 

 

Oh, no. Araft would need A LOT of redemption to only warrant disgust.

 

 

<<<, and the constant 'fact' that it is he who persists with the violence, and it is he whom refuses to negotiate.>>>

 

 

Facts that are rather difficult to dispute, no?

 

 

<<<Agreed, the Arafat government is a bad one, and it has been known to worsen the effects of the occupation, but that's just the point. There is an Occupation, and an illegal one, at that.>>>

 

 

Israel was attacked in the 1960's. They took over the land when they won. They were prepared to turn almost all of it over to Arafat and his band of sub-human monkeys in Oslo, but Yassir (in a REAL shocker) failed to live up to his end of the bargain.

 

And, again, if Israel's occupation is "illegal", let Egypt and Jordan do the griping, since they had the land before Israel.

 

 

<<<The Israeli government, and US Foreign Policy have on numerous occasions in the past foiled attempts at negotiations saying that Arab states and the P.L.O maintain a 'rejectionist' attitude, when it was infact neighbouring Arab States and the P.L.O whom attempted it, by acknowledging Israel's right to exist. However, the Israeli government has consistently shown their disapproval of giving Palestinians rights, and as evidenced by their current leader, Ariel Sharon, things aren't necessarily going to change.>>>

 

 

Certain rights Palestinians DON'T deserve. I wouldn't give them ANY control over the airways. I wouldn't allow them to build up a military.

 

They've proven themselves, time and again, to be untrustworthy.

 

 

<<<Ariel Sharon should be facing a War Criminals court. This is the man who is responsible for the Sabra & Shatilla Massacre, 1982, in which 3000 Palestinian and Lebanese innocents were brutally killed.>>>

 

 

Yet Arafat gets a Nobel Peace Prize in spite of ALL of his murderous activities. Ah, the consistency of the pro-Palestine lobby.

 

 

<<<Ariel Sharon has maintained a hardline policy towards the Palestinian people, he is an evil man interested in only the deaths of Palestinian innocents.>>>

 

 

Simple question: If the intifada was not going on, would Israel be messing with Arafat and his collection of sub-human thugs? No, they have other things to worry about---liking maintaining a free country and the like.

 

 

<<<The Israeli citizens who elected him were understandably looking for security, but what must be understood is that maintaining the occupation will never establish security in Israel.>>>

 

 

But appeasing Arafat WILL?

 

 

<<<The occupation of Palestinian land, which denies basic rights to Palestinians, such as water, agriculture, security etc, isn't stopping suicide bombers.>>>

 

 

And appeasing them WILL?

 

 

<<<The Israeli Military incursions, the ones which supposedly 'root out terrorists' results in the deaths of innocent Palestinians, total destruction of villages, and the homes of Palestinians, their livelihood, being demolished.>>>

 

 

I could go back into the truth of Jenin and how this little "massacre" is probably about as honest as the other "atrocities" committed by Israel.

 

Damn those Jews for not just accepting being massacred, huh?

 

 

<<<The settlement buildings and land expropriation is not stopping attacks on Israeli civilians.>>>

 

 

Again, appeasing the sub-human monkeys WILL?

 

 

<<<The only two options left are to either withdraw from the territories leading to a creation of a Palestinian state in which all peoples can live side by side with equal rights or simply the mass killing of all Palestinians.>>>

 

 

I second the latter. Appeasement won't work, so option one is not a possibiliy. And, if the Palestinians REFUSE to live in peace, then let Israel do whatever necessary to resolve their problem.

 

 

<<<The Israeli government has a bit to lose, upon withdrawl from the illegally occupied territories. The Palestinian slave labourers who produce so much for Israel to amass profit, the settlements which are used for production, and the water facilities abused to circulate upto a 1/3 of the water in Israel will be gone. It's simply security and peace over profits.>>>

 

 

No, it's called Israel is fighting for their survival and unfortunately for Palestine, Israel has a competent military.

 

 

<<<There is a distinction to be made. Israel does not represent the entire Jewish race, but people often mis-interpret criticism of Israel, as anti-Jewish sentiment. Far from it, there are many many Jewish people who are opposed to Israeli actions, and who support a Palestinian state.>>>

 

 

And they aren't living in constant terror of people walking into malls and clubs and blowing them to bits.

 

 

<<<There are also Israeli civilians opposed to the actions of their government, and who wish for a Palestinian state to be created.>>>

 

 

I'm sure there are. Idiots reside all over the place.

 

 

<<<It is interesting that the Holocaust is brought up. This is the very tragedy that is often exploited by people to somehow justify the actions of Israel. In no way am I accusing any of you of doing such a thing, but the Holocaust is a subject that shouldn't be brought up when discussing the Israel/Palestine issue.>>>

 

 

Except that is abnormally fitting here---with the biggest difference being that the Jews have the ability to fight back.

 

 

<<<People are blinding themselves with anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, in their attempts to justify the actions of Israel.>>>

 

 

Not quite.

 

 

<<<As for Ghandi, here's a quote I found:

 

"Gandhi on the Palestine conflict – 1938

 

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs…As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." >>>

 

 

Again---when Palestine behaves a little more like Gandhi, you might have a point.

 

Until then, there is nothing too brutal that Israel could do to the monkeys that run the PLO.

                      -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Quote  

Because it isn't true. The IDF is scrupulous in avoiding civilian casualties. The Palestinians deliberately try to inflict them. Claiming that the two sides are morally equivalent isn't just false, it's obscene.

 

 

In the last 18 months, there have been over 1500 Palestinian deaths.>>>

 

 

Where are these figures from? If they're from the PLO or the UN, I don't buy them one tiny bit. Palestine lives and dies by exaggerating the "damage" done to them.

 

Do you see IDF troops entering Palestinian diners and mowing down innocents? Do you see IDF troops entering buses and just opening fire?

 

No---but homicide bombers do that with bombs.

 

 

<<<Were all of them collaborators of terrorist attacks, or all plotting suicide bombings? Of course not. I can honestly document hundreds of offences the IDF has committed against Palestinian citizens.>>>

 

 

Then do so. But, be sure to mention the Palestinian atrocities. You should hold the countries to the same standard.

 

 

<<<The force used by the Israeli military is state-sanctioned terror. Therefore, if we are to label suicide bombers terrorists, I see no reason as to why those who maintain the occupation with violence, using tanks etc, should not be regarded as terrorists.>>>

 

 

Because they don't target innocents and they're not sub-human little monkeys devoid of independent, rational thought.

 

 

<<<Quote  

Wrong. Utterly and absolutely wrong. When Palestinian children are weaned on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, when the surrounding Arab states publish official newspapers claiming that Jews drink the blood of human children at their religious ceremonies, when the terrorist organisations nursed and sheltered by Arafat and his masters call Jews the literal spawn of dogs and apes, it absolutely should be brought up. The Palestinian intifada isn't about establishing a Palestinian state. It never has been. It is about destroying Israel as a state and murdering Jews as a people. The Palestinians themselves have said in so many words that Oslo was a deliberate blind in order to regroup for total war. These aren't "conspiracy theories."

Anti-Semitism is alive and well. It is the elan vital of Arab terrorism. What will it take to convince you? Another Dachau?

 

 

That's my specific gripe, this inane assumption that the mainstream press in Arab society is filled with anti-Semitic slurs. Yes, it's true, underground publications print hateful propaganda against the Jewish race. Of course, this is wrong, but the point is that it happens on the side of Israel too.>>>

 

 

So, you call the assumption of anti-Semitism in the Arab press "asinine"---but then acknowledge it's authenticity. Point out the slurs of Palestinians in the Israeli press. I can just point you to MEMRI.org to document the anti-Semitism of the Arab state press.

 

 

<<<The instigated hatred on both sides is simply exploited more by propaganda campaigns.>>>

 

 

Except that Israeli civilians don't tend to strap bombs to their chest, walk into crowded Palestinian gatherings and blow themselves up.

 

Oh, and they don't specifically target children.

 

Don't think Israelis held priests hostage at the Church of the Nativity anytime recently.

 

 

<<<Of course there is anti-Semitism, and there are the ignorant idiots out there who believe that the actions of Israel are a direct representation of the Jewish race as a whole. But this is not helped by the exploitation of anti-Semitism by the Israeli government. The Holocaust itself has been exploited by several organizations to aid Israel, which in turn has left a few victims of the Holocaust with no monetary compensation whatsoever.>>>

 

 

Where are these victims? If you're going to make absurd claims, expect to get called on it.

 

 

<<<This bitter hatred exists, but you've yet to state that it also exists on the part of Israel, especially within the Israeli government.>>>

 

 

Hmm, there are Arab members of the Knesset.

 

I assume non-Muslims have any authority in the PLO, right?

 

What? They DON'T?

 

I am shocked---SHOCKED, I tell you.

 

 

<<<The Palestinian people have been denied their right to determination, and it's truly frustrating that many people are unaware of the history of the conflict, instead only being told that a Palestinian equates to a terrorist.>>>

 

 

What right to determination do they have? The land belonged to Jordan and Egypt before Israel took it after they were attacked (amazing how rarely Israel INITIATES violence, isn't it?)---and God knows Jordan and Egypt wouldn't have tolerated the PLO as Israel has tried to do.

                     -=Mike

[Guest]

inane assumption that the mainstream press in Arab society is filled with anti-Semitic slurs.

The story I quoted was from a newspaper published by the Egyptian government actually. It doesn't matter. You seem content to remain willfully blind to the attitudes there.

 

it's truly frustrating that many people are unaware of the history of the conflict, instead only being told that a Palestinian equates to a terrorist.

What charming generalised condescension. I'm fully aware of the history, thanks. I don't think every Palestinian is a terrorist and I don't think they should all be shot in the head or expelled.

However, it is a fact that terrorist organisations exist among the Palestinians, and the Palestinian people as a whole have been deceived over several decades into swallowing anti-Semitic Nazi pseudoscience by their own so-called "leaders." It is a fact that mainstream Arab newspapers, usually published by the state governments, regularly print baseless, venomous screeds against Israel as a country and the Jews as a race. It is a fact that Arafat's rigidly-controlled media apparatus broadcasts and publishes viciously anti-Semitic material in a near constant stream of filth. It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of the population in all Middle Eastern states is sharply anti-Israel. Pretending that the niceties of your distinction between Zionism and the Jewish people are appreciated in that region, that when people burn the Star of David and scream "Death to the Jews," they don't really mean it - all this would strike me as comical if I didn't have the sickening feeling that I would've heard you saying the same things in 1938.

[Guest]

you know, fatmanfoleyfan, I used to think that Israel was the oppressor and were getting a free pass in the conflict.  But with each "suicide bombing," that conviction faded away.  The continued attacks on civilians as well as Yasser's typical antics have turned me completely onto Israel's side.  The biased media coverage has also contributed.  If Arafat would have held up his end of each agreement, and the Palestinians had fought honorably (instead of attacking innocents) I would have agreed with your stance.  However this has not been the case and it does not seem it ever will be... so I must take a pro-Israel position.

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

You know, this whole thing reminds me of how a mugger can sue someone they attack and make money off of it.

 

Let's say I'm walking down the street.  I've been training in various martial arts for ten years, so I know how to kick, box, clinch, grapple, all that good stuff that kicks lotsa ass.  I also usually carry a knife (under three inches so it's legal.  I want to have a concealed carry so damn bad.).

 

So, say a mugger tries to jump me, a knife or slapjack in hand.  He asks for my wallet.  I politely decline.  Actually, I tell him to go to hell.  Either response is not what he was looking for so he attacks me.  From there, I proceed to beat the everliving hell out of him.  Yet, somewhere in the law, there's some damned invisible line that I crossed where I went from self-defense to being an attacker myself.  

 

Guess what?  I end up in court, staring at a guy that attacked me with the intent of hurting me for whatever money I had in my possession and made the dumbass pay for it.  So, guess where the analogy goes?  I'm playing the part of Israel.  Well, for that to work, I would have had to have him kill my wife and children in front of me and then when I broke his legs, he brought the almight justice against me.  The mugger, if you haven't noticed, is Palestine.

 

Why do I feel this necessary?  Okay, when Israel took control of this damned contested land (funny how close it is to the Holy Land of THREE major world religions), they were in a fight against the afore mentioned Egypt and Jordan like Mike said.  Meaning?  Why the hell didn't the Palestinians take up a beef with those two countries?  Why in the hell do they feel it necessary to blow up people that don't have a FUCKING THING TO DO with the decisions that are made concerning this whole clusterfuck.  The people referenced in the last sentenced are called women, children and ordinary, everyday men that want to live a happy life.  So the Palestinians kill them and piss off their country who proceeds to start pounding mudholes, and then the poor, oppressed Palestinians cry to anyone that will immediately take your side if you say you're having human rights violated, nevermind the people you fucking KILLED.

 

Oh, and are the Israelis supposed to be so far above reproach in their counter actions?  Not a drop of civilian blood spilled?  News flash on a couple of fronts.  First off, there is no official military for the "monkeys" as Mike calls them.  I'll refer to them as the thugs.  Second, if there was a distinction, what would keep these inhuman sons of bitches from running and hiding in the middle of a group of innocents, or pulling innocents into a compound with them?

 

One-sided?  Yeah, issues can get that way sometimes.  It sincerely pisses me off when the world has to be so fucking politically correct that the group that's outgunned is ALWAYS right and we are forced to hear that some dumbasses in the world still don't believe the Holocaust exists.  So, Palestine picked a fight with some pissed off Jewish people that are damned good at kicking ass.  Boo hoo.  What do you expect when you tangle with the people that invented the Uzi?

[Guest fatmanfoleyfan]

<<<The ongoing suicide bombings killing Israeli innocents are horrific, to say the least. But just as horrific is the brutal occupation of Palestinian land, resulting in the deaths of thousands upon thousands of innocent Palestinians.>>>

Hmm, you mean like the "thousands" killed in Jenin? Such outright lies do such disservice to the Palestinian claims.

 

I'm talking about events such as Sabra and Shatilla, the massacres in Deir Yassin, Qibya, etc to benefit the creation of Israel by intimidating Palestinians to leave their land, and in many circumstances direct expulsion, the many villages in Southern Lebanon, such as Khiyam. An example you've pointed out is Jenin. Reports state that there was no evidence of a massacre, but sufficient evidence of Israeli war crimes, and that the majority of the dead were innocent civilians, whom were targeted.

 

Palestinians target civilians. Israel does not.

Palestinians initiate the violence. Israel does not.

Palestinians are governed by sub-human monkeys with no accountability. Israel is not.  

 

This very statement is repeated relentlessly. Palestinian suicide bombings are horrible, unacceptable acts, and should be condemned and stopped. But as I said before, that same condemnation must be placed at the helm of the Israeli government. Their military has displayed acts of reckless destruction. The last 18 months have left over 400 Israeli's, and 1500 Palestinians dead. These figures are available from all news outlets worldwide, including the mainstream press in America. Saying there is no moral equivalence defies common sense and logic. So, 1500 Palestinians were killed due to 'collateral damage' as the Israeli government states. It implies that the Palestinians who have been killed were so by accident? The Israeli military has an appalling human rights record towards the Palestinian population, such arguments that suicide bombing is 'worse' than the humane military of Israel should not suffice when discussing the issues. In debating we must realise that the deaths of innocents on both sides are to be condemned.

 

<<<The numerous statements which I've read often show a complete disgust of Arafat>>>

Oh, no. Araft would need A LOT of redemption to only warrant disgust.

<<<, and the constant 'fact' that it is he who persists with the violence, and it is he whom refuses to negotiate.>>>

Facts that are rather difficult to dispute, no?

 

Firstly, support for Arafat within Palestine has been low for several years now. Hamas, and the other Palestinian terror groups hate Arafat, it's well known. Now, the constant assumption that Arafat and his political regime order such attacks, and that it is he who persists with the violence is just plain wrong. These terrorist groups are only assisting those within Israel whom oppose peace. These attacks damage the cause of the Palestinians, and Arafat himself, something painfully obvious. If anything, the Palestinian government and Arafat are frowned upon for seemingly being 'traitors' to the Palestinian cause. The numerous peace negotiations have not once guaranteed anything substantial for the Palestinians. The agreements maintain control over borders, water, agriculture, security, and the 22% of Historical Palestine asked for, is decreased yet further. The P.L.O group itself actually were first in attempting to start negotiations. In 1978, an issued statement said that the "PLO will accept an independent Palestinian state consisting of  the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with connecting corridor..."

 

 

Israel was attacked in the 1960's. They took over the land when they won. They were prepared to turn almost all of it over to Arafat and his band of sub-human monkeys in Oslo, but Yassir (in a REAL shocker) failed to live up to his end of the bargain.

And, again, if Israel's occupation is "illegal", let Egypt and Jordan do the griping, since they had the land before Israel.

 

As I spoke of above, the agreements have been worthless. Nine years on, and the Oslo Agreement has maintained the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, has led to more land expropriation, and settlement building; resulted in higher unemployment, and poverty for the Palestinians; and finally that life has just gotten worse. The Palestinian Authority is hated because it started the Oslo negotiations, and because it was willing to accept them despite losses for the Palestinian people. In practicality, the Israeli prolonged military occupation is aided by the PA's willingness to adhere to such agreements, and the US support for Israel has proved detrimental to the situation, and in exposing their allegiance to Israel despite its oppression of the Palestinian people. Now, in no way am I trying to say that the PA are great people, because the government there is corrupt, and has very very limited control over the Palestinian people.

 

Israeli's even admitted to starting the 1967 War. The Israeli claim was that Arab attack was imminent because Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser ordered the closure of the 'Straits of Tiran'. Also,they reported shelling in the demilitarized zone of the Israeli/Syrian border. The zone, established in 1949, involved incessant provocations on both sides, yet never would it elicit war. Lastly, the fear of attack by Egyptian forces is proved even more worthless noticing that a third of the Egyptian Army was in Yemen at the time. The Egyptian Air Force which Israel reported would be eventual attackers, were in fact attacked by Israel whilst on the ground.

 

Famous quotes by General Matityahu Peled who played a huge role in the situation, formulating a plan with others to once again conquer the Sinai peninsula, which was at the root of the debacle and Menachim Begin.

 

"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war" 19 March 1972 - Ha'aretz - General Matityahu Peled

 

Prime Minister Menachem Begin, in a speech at the Israeli National Defense College: "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."  8 August 1982 - excerpts printed in 21 August issue of  Jerusalem Post

 

Certain rights Palestinians DON'T deserve. I wouldn't give them ANY control over the airways. I wouldn't allow them to build up a military.

 

In essence you are denying the rights of Palestinians to self-determination, what was denied to the Palestinian population upon the creation of Israel on Palestinian land. European anti-Semitism understandably warranted pleas for a Jewish homeland, but the fact that this European anti-Semitism resulted in a Jewish homeland being created at the expense of the Palestinian people, whom had done nothing wrong, was wrong. Palestinians were denied their right to self-determination and still are.

 

A military was built for Israel, as were airways. These were used as tools to oppress the Palestinian people. Palestinian suicide bombing is wrong. The military occupation is wrong.

 

A Palestinian state must be created, and one that gives Palestinians freedom, and the basic human rights all people deserve. If a state were created, attacks continued, and the authorities didn't deal with them, then Israel would be justified in an incursion or form of 'retaliation' complete with backing from the international community. But, the current military occupation, and the numerous incursions all in the name of 'security' has done nothing but provide means for retaliation upon retaliation. Israel's militray might would crush the entire Middle East.

 

Yet Arafat gets a Nobel Peace Prize in spite of ALL of his murderous activities. Ah, the consistency of the pro-Palestine lobby.

 

Yet Yitzhak Rabin, too, a former army general who was involved in murdering Palestinians gets a peace prize. Both didn't deserve a prize, or recognition whatsoever. The Oslo Accord was in effect a bunch of crap. As stated above, contrary to misinformed reports, Arafat is simply a disconnected idealist. The modicum of control he has over the Palestinian people is not at all over Hamas and the other terrorist groups. I don't like Arafat, and I feel both governments need to undergo major changes, but the occupation must end in order to provide viability for the government and its peoples.

 

Simple question: If the intifada was not going on, would Israel be messing with Arafat and his collection of sub-human thugs? No, they have other things to worry about---liking maintaining a free country and the like.

 

Israel would be maintaining the brutal military occupation which oppresses the Palestinian people, denying basic rights, instigating hatred, and diminishing the security for innocents on both sides. The second (recent) Intifada was sparked by Ariel Sharon whilst on a visit to 'Temple Mount', a place of worship for both Jews and Muslims. On Friday, the Muslim day of prayer, Israeli soldiers surrounded the site, whilst Sharon toured inside, prohibiting anyone wishing to pray. Considering this was the Muslim day of prayer, stones were thrown, shots were fired, and Palestinians were killed on the day.

 

<<<The Israeli citizens who elected him were understandably looking for security, but what must be understood is that maintaining the occupation will never establish security in Israel.>>>

But appeasing Arafat WILL?

 

Appeasing the Palestinina people will. Both Palestinians and Israeli's suffer due to the maintenance of the occupation. A Palestinian state would establish security, peace, and equality for both peoples. And if attacks continued, Israel would be justified in a possible retaliation complete with international backing.

 

I could go back into the truth of Jenin and how this little "massacre" is probably about as honest as the other "atrocities" committed by Israel.

Damn those Jews for not just accepting being massacred, huh?

 

You only bring up Jenin, which actually did show human rights violations, and wanton destruction by the Israeli military. There have been numerous atrocities, with possibly the Sabra & Shatilla massacre being that often brought up. 3000 Palestinian and Lebanese innocents were killed. Proven were rapes, mutilations, general torture, and other sickening acts. Ariel Sharon is held accountable.

 

<<<The settlement buildings and land expropriation is not stopping attacks on Israeli civilians.>>>

Again, appeasing the sub-human monkeys WILL?

 

Again, appeasing the Palestinian people will. In fact, I think appeasing them sounds too extreme. It's giving Palestinians the basic rights guaranteed to all people, but the ones that they've been denied.

 

<<<The only two options left are to either withdraw from the territories leading to a creation of a Palestinian state in which all peoples can live side by side with equal rights or simply the mass killing of all Palestinians.>>>

I second the latter. Appeasement won't work, so option one is not a possibiliy. And, if the Palestinians REFUSE to live in peace, then let Israel do whatever necessary to resolve their problem.

 

Yet again, you've totally ignored the fact that the occupation exists, and it is this occupation that is at the heart of all the problems. This occupation means that Palestinians are unable to live in peace, and are unable to live with the basic rights over land, agriculture, water, and work. It's simple, the illegal occupation Israel maintains produces illegal settlements, illegal slave labourers, which generates illegal profits for the country. Security and peace over profits.

 

No, it's called Israel is fighting for their survival and unfortunately for Palestine, Israel has a competent military.

 

You've kind of dispelled your own point. The Israeli military along with it's strong alliance with the US government means it would crush the entire Middle East quite easily. Israel could just as easily crush the Palestinian population, but in doing so the government would equate to genocidal evil bastards, who would be condemned worldwide. Instead, they opt to enforce the military occupation, denying Palestinians their rights to self-determination and equality, whilst gradually building more settlements, and generating more profits. Israel is not fighting for its survival, the government itself knows this.

 

<<<There is a distinction to be made. Israel does not represent the entire Jewish race, but people often mis-interpret criticism of Israel, as anti-Jewish sentiment. Far from it, there are many many Jewish people who are opposed to Israeli actions, and who support a Palestinian state.>>>

And they aren't living in constant terror of people walking into malls and clubs and blowing them to bits.

 

Even some Israeli civilians, those whom are represented by the Israeli government, are against the occupation, and yet they live in fear of bombings. That's the point, they realise that what the Palestinians are being subjected to is cause for more hatred, and more death. My other point was that, unfortunately there are reports of attacks on Jews worldwide, and ones often exploited. The actions of the Israeli government don't represent the Jewish people, but unfortunately for the Israeli civilians, they do have a role in supposedly representing the people. Much like the corrupt Palestinian Authroity, this is a bad thing for both peoples. But, this has more to do with political ideologies (socialism, anarchism, etc.).

 

<<<There are also Israeli civilians opposed to the actions of their government, and who wish for a Palestinian state to be created.>>>

I'm sure there are. Idiots reside all over the place.

 

That's a very harsh comment, in your recent comment you imply that no one understands what it can be like living in such conditions, yet here you are willing to criticise those who do. Of course, we are ot those involved in the terrible conflict, but we have a right to feel for them, and try to understand the conditions, and what has brought upon their beliefs. The Israeli civilians who oppose the actions of their government, and want a Palestinian state created are to be truly commended for not understandably falling into the horrid depths of the exploited issue, and taking in all means of propaganda. The same can be said of the Palestinians who too wish for peace, side-by-side. However, it is understandable that their is a hatred between both peoples, due to the conflicts exploitation.

[Guest fatmanfoleyfan]

(Sorry for the really long post)

 

<<<It is interesting that the Holocaust is brought up. This is the very tragedy that is often exploited by people to somehow justify the actions of Israel. In no way am I accusing any of you of doing such a thing, but the Holocaust is a subject that shouldn't be brought up when discussing the Israel/Palestine issue.>>>

Except that is abnormally fitting here---with the biggest difference being that the Jews have the ability to fight back.

 

What purpose do such comments have? Nothing. The persecution of the Jews was revolting, and the exploitation of these events is disgusting. That was my point.

 

Again---when Palestine behaves a little more like Gandhi, you might have a point.

Until then, there is nothing too brutal that Israel could do to the monkeys that run the PLO.

 

The assasination of the Israeli Tourism Minister who regarded Palestinians as a 'cancer', was wrong despite the racist views of the man. However, the 'targeted attacks' as labelled by the Israeli government, resulting in the deaths of Palestinian government officials, many of whom are innocent, elicits no stories or outcries. Israel's brutal occupation is one that attacks the Palestinian people, no matter what they do. If I were to follow your rationale, then I'd state that there is nothing too brutal that could be done to those in the Israeli government.

 

<<<Quote  

Because it isn't true. The IDF is scrupulous in avoiding civilian casualties. The Palestinians deliberately try to inflict them. Claiming that the two sides are morally equivalent isn't just false, it's obscene.

In the last 18 months, there have been over 1500 Palestinian deaths.>>>

Where are these figures from? If they're from the PLO or the UN, I don't buy them one tiny bit. Palestine lives and dies by exaggerating the "damage" done to them.

Do you see IDF troops entering Palestinian diners and mowing down innocents? Do you see IDF troops entering buses and just opening fire?

No---but homicide bombers do that with bombs.

 

The figures are from worldwide media outlets. I don't see IDF troops entering Palestinian diners, or buses. But I do see IDF troops bulldozing houses, destroying villages, and killing innocent people. The suicide bombings are attacks on human life, and are wrong. The actions of the military are attacks on human life, and are wrong. These IDF troops do these things with guns, tanks, F16s, and weapons purchased with money from the US taxpayer.

 

<<<Were all of them collaborators of terrorist attacks, or all plotting suicide bombings? Of course not. I can honestly document hundreds of offences the IDF has committed against Palestinian citizens.>>>

Then do so. But, be sure to mention the Palestinian atrocities. You should hold the countries to the same standard.

 

Is this a joke? This is the exact same thing I'm accusing you of; taking into account only the Palestinian suicide bombings. As evidenced by my posts, I do take them into account, I just feel that the atrocities Israel commits are often shrugged away here.

 

So, you call the assumption of anti-Semitism in the Arab press "asinine"---but then acknowledge it's authenticity. Point out the slurs of Palestinians in the Israeli press. I can just point you to MEMRI.org to document the anti-Semitism of the Arab state press.

 

I clearly stated, that the Arab mainstream press is not one that throws around calls to kill Jews, and the like. Much like throughout the world, extremist journals belonging to extremist organisations often call for horrible things. For example, journals for the NF in Britain promote racism. I have visited MEMRI.org quite a lot, got a link to it about two months ago. However, I find that the headlines placed upon the articles are usually horrendous in representing the actual content. I totally object to the anti-Semitism, no matter how slight it is. There were also some examples of Israeli newspapers. The site however, is based upon researching the several articles that many would object to specifically in the West. I heard of recent comments made by Republican Dick Armey on MSNBC's 'Hardball' show, in which he advocated the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. There have been several such columns sharing the view within mainstream newspapers such as the Washington Post and several op-ed pieces in New York Times, etc. The comment by Armey has yet to receive a media outcry, and all this can be based upon the Israeli propaganda within America. Same can be said of the Arab states and their press, which you've mentioned.

 

Except that Israeli civilians don't tend to strap bombs to their chest, walk into crowded Palestinian gatherings and blow themselves up.

Oh, and they don't specifically target children.

Don't think Israelis held priests hostage at the Church of the Nativity anytime recently.

 

No, instead, soldiers are ordered to root out 'terrorists' resulting in the deaths of innocent civilians, and more destruction to the livelihoods of the Palestinians. Much like you said before, we've got to take into account both sides of the story. Also, let's not forget about the killings of two nuns by Israeli soldiers.

 

<<<Of course there is anti-Semitism, and there are the ignorant idiots out there who believe that the actions of Israel are a direct representation of the Jewish race as a whole. But this is not helped by the exploitation of anti-Semitism by the Israeli government. The Holocaust itself has been exploited by several organizations to aid Israel, which in turn has left a few victims of the Holocaust with no monetary compensation whatsoever.>>>

Where are these victims? If you're going to make absurd claims, expect to get called on it.

 

Well-known author, Norman G. Finkelstein, who wrote a book called 'The Holocaust Industry' documents the exploitation of the cause, and how his mother, a victim of the Holocaust, has yet to get monetary compensation. He cites many examples. The book was a good read but contained a few errors.

 

<<<This bitter hatred exists, but you've yet to state that it also exists on the part of Israel, especially within the Israeli government.>>>

Hmm, there are Arab members of the Knesset.

I assume non-Muslims have any authority in the PLO, right?

What? They DON'T?

I am shocked---SHOCKED, I tell you.

 

Israel's declaration of independence defines the state as both Jewish and Democratic, and guaranteeing equality to all it's citizens regardless of race or religion. However, obviously, the state consists of predominantly Jews, and so they are treated to special treatment. In 1992, 'Basic Law' was passed which expressed freedom for all it's citizens, and the state was defined as 'Jewish and Democratic'...and umm, nothing else. They failed to guarantee equality to all citizens.

 

Secondly, there are political restrictions towards Arabs who are hoping to run for elections. Those who attempt must not question the 'Basic Law' amendment stating 'denial of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people', meaning that those running cannot question the integrity of the state as purely Jewish, and therefore not giving equal rights to all regardless of race and religion, which in turns practically forces the candidate to accept Zionist ideology. Anyone who doesn't accept this, whether Jew or Arab or anyone else, is disqualified. The 'Basic Law' of Israel suggests there is no equality between Jew and Arab, or Jew and...anyone else, for that matter.

 

Another law - 'The Law of Return' states that every Jew has the right to immigrate and be granted instant citizenship to Israel, this means citizenship can also be granted to their marital partners, children and grandchildren. Yet, any other person must be born within Israel, and thus their parents must have Israeli citizenship. This clearly discriminates against the millions of Palestinians who have been refused entry back into their country, and homeland.

 

To add to this, the several worldwide Jewish federations, have great influence over the political status of Israel, and have authority over several key political elements such as land ownership, etc. These federations, being only representative of Jew's means there is more discrimination to the ethnic minorities within Israel.

 

Other laws within the government discriminate against minority, such as the Budget law, dealing with the state funds. They refuse to disclose what monies should be placed for the ethnic minorities. All this means is that the lack of ethnic minority representation within the government means the ethnic minorities recieve little funding for their areas. Why don't more people simply try and represent? Because then they'd have to accept the fact that there is no right of equality in Israel.

 

---That's something I wrote in response to an article in the British 'Times', which followed the same sort of point.

 

<<<The Palestinian people have been denied their right to determination, and it's truly frustrating that many people are unaware of the history of the conflict, instead only being told that a Palestinian equates to a terrorist.>>>

What right to determination do they have? The land belonged to Jordan and Egypt before Israel took it after they were attacked (amazing how rarely Israel INITIATES violence, isn't it?)---and God knows Jordan and Egypt wouldn't have tolerated the PLO as Israel has tried to do.

 

<<<it's truly frustrating that many people are unaware of the history of the conflict, instead only being told that a Palestinian equates to a terrorist.>>>What charming generalised condescension. I'm fully aware of the history, thanks.

 

I wasn't referring to you, instead referring to the handling of the situation by the general media especially in the US.

 

However, it is a fact that terrorist organisations exist among the Palestinians, and the Palestinian people as a whole have been deceived over several decades into swallowing anti-Semitic Nazi pseudoscience by their own so-called "leaders." It is a fact that mainstream Arab newspapers, usually published by the state governments, regularly print baseless, venomous screeds against Israel as a country and the Jews as a race. It is a fact that Arafat's rigidly-controlled media apparatus broadcasts and publishes viciously anti-Semitic material in a near constant stream of filth. It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of the population in all Middle Eastern states is sharply anti-Israel. Pretending that the niceties of your distinction between Zionism and the Jewish people are appreciated in that region, that when people burn the Star of David and scream "Death to the Jews," they don't really mean it - all this would strike me as comical if I didn't have the sickening feeling that I would've heard you saying the same things in 1938.

 

The problem here is, that the Israeli leadership too, has promoted the hatred of the Arabs. The Israeli leaders of the past, Golda Meir, Ben-Gurion, Begin, all have stated horrid things towards the Arabs. Before Israel's creation, the process of evicting Palestinians from land was in full effect under 'Plan Dalet'. Even now, leaders such as Sharon and the assasinated tourism minister I spoke of regard the Palestinians as terrorist villains, and a 'cancer'. I clearly understand that both governments on both sides exploit the hatred, and the tension which leads to escalated violence.

 

At a recent protest in London for Palestinian rights, 70,000 marched the streets. The only press attention the event got was the burning of the Israeli flag by five people. What they failed to mention was those who burnt the flag were in fact Jewish. People within the protest, obviously expressed their disgust at the action.

 

The simple fact is, and one acknowledged by many Zionists, and David Ben Gurion himself, was that the creation of Israel was obviously going to spark hatred and anger within the Palestinian population, and the Arab world. The Arabs had done nothing wrong to warrant such an action, and all they see is lot's of people coming in and taking their land.

 

you know, fatmanfoleyfan, I used to think that Israel was the oppressor and were getting a free pass in the conflict.  But with each "suicide bombing," that conviction faded away.  The continued attacks on civilians as well as Yasser's typical antics have turned me completely onto Israel's side.  The biased media coverage has also contributed.  If Arafat would have held up his end of each agreement, and the Palestinians had fought honorably (instead of attacking innocents) I would have agreed with your stance.  However this has not been the case and it does not seem it ever will be... so I must take a pro-Israel position.

 

'Fought honorably'? Sustaining the military occupation has led to the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinian people. It's this continued occupation that provides a source for retaliatory measures on both sides, which in turn helps escalate the hatred. We all know the suicide bombings are horrific, and these bombings don't represent the Palestinian people. The actions by the Israeli government and military are also horrid, and we must remember that despite the role of government being to represent the people, it doesn't. As noted before the exploitation of the conflict also promotes hatred. The illegal occupation of Palestinian land must end. The occupation leaves the Palestinian people living under a foreign military dictatorship, meaning Arafat only has a semblance of authority over them. If peace is to prevail between both sides then the end of the occupation is the only way forward. Arafat and the PA are called upon to do more, but frankly they have an inability to do so. If a Palestinian state were created, they'd be the official authorities meaning they would have the means to act against the collaborators of suicide bombings. If not, then Israel would have a justifiable right to retaliate, but at this present moment it does not simply due to the military occupation. We all know that the violence is not going to bring about peace, therefore the occupations end is the only way forward.

 

As for the numerous pathetic agreements, the ones which Arafat has actually succumbed, to the chagrin of the Palestinian people, the one often cited is the 'Barak's Generous Offer', one which was blatantly refused.

http://www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html outlines the offer.

 

Many state that the offer was to give the Palestinians 95% of the West Bank, however this directly conflicts with Ehud Barak's May 21st 2001 New York Times Op-ed article:

 

"a gradual process of establishing secure, defensible borders, demarcated so as to encompass more than 80 percent of the Jewish settlers in several settlement blocs over about 15 percent of Judea and Samaria, and to ensure a wide security zone in the Jordan Valley."

 

Meaning that 85% could be offered at best, whilst 80% of the illegal settlers would remain.

 

"Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises."  - Robert Mallery (Clinton's special assistant for Arab/Israeli affairs - who participated in the Camp David talks) - New York Time (Fictions About the Failure at Camp David) - July 8 2001

 

So the Palestinians kill them and piss off their country who proceeds to start pounding mudholes, and then the poor, oppressed Palestinians cry to anyone that will immediately take your side if you say you're having human rights violated, nevermind the people you fucking KILLED.

Oh, and are the Israelis supposed to be so far above reproach in their counter actions?  Not a drop of civilian blood spilled?  News flash on a couple of fronts.  First off, there is no official military for the "monkeys" as Mike calls them.  I'll refer to them as the thugs.  Second, if there was a distinction, what would keep these inhuman sons of bitches from running and hiding in the middle of a group of innocents, or pulling innocents into a compound with them?

One-sided?  Yeah, issues can get that way sometimes.  It sincerely pisses me off when the world has to be so fucking politically correct that the group that's outgunned is ALWAYS right and we are forced to hear that some dumbasses in the world still don't believe the Holocaust exists.  So, Palestine picked a fight with some pissed off Jewish people that are damned good at kicking ass.  Boo hoo.  What do you expect when you tangle with the people that invented the Uzi?

 

In the late 19th century, many areas were proclaiming themselves nations. The Palestinian people whilst under the rule of the Ottomans, also looked to proclaim independence. Persecution of the Jews in Europe aided the creation of the Zionist goal which was to settle the Jews back to their ancestral homeland, Palestine, which endured an over 400 year Jewish rule. However, this would come at the expense of the Palestinian populace who had been inhabiting the land, and claimed as much a stake of the land as the Zionists. With mass immigration of Jews to Palestine, much to the chagrin of the Jews who had settled peacefully within Palestine, the goal of a Jewish state within Palestine was cemented by Lord Balfour in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/balfour.htm.

 

With WW1 over, and Arabs joining the British in revolting against the Ottomans, the Arab states were promised independence.

 

In 1919, Balfour also stated in a memorandum:

 

‘The contradiction between the letter of the Covenant (the Anglo-French Declaration of 1918 promising the Arabs of former Ottoman colonies that as a reward for supporting the Allies they could have their independence) is even more flagrant in the case of the independent nation of Palestine than in that of the independent nation of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose to even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country… The four great powers are committed to Zionism and Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, irs rooted in age-long tradition, in present needs, in future hopes, or far profounder import than the desire and prejudices of the 700, 000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land.’

 

Thus stating the creation of a Jewish state at the expense of the Palestinian people was supported.

 

Britains mandate divided the area that now comprises Israel, West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jordan, into two regions. East of the Jordan became Transjordan, and eventually Jordan, whilst the west of the river became mandated Palestine. Arabs were angered at Britains failure to fulfil its promise of independence. Eventual mass immigration to Palestine led to riots between Jews and Arabs, which during a week of heavy fighting in 1929 resulted in the deaths of 133 Jews, and 115 Arabs. Immigration, and legal land purchases by Jews escalated in the years preceding WW2. After WW2, and the Holocaust, the international community greatly favoured the creation of a Jewish state within Palestine. By 1946, figures show that there were over 600,000 Jews in Palestine, and over 1.2 million Arabs, with Jews acquiring 7% (1.5 square km of 26 square km) of the land. Anyway, in 1947, the newly-founded UN decided upon a Partition Plan, resulting in 55% of the land going to the Jews, and 45% to the Arabs.

 

The problem was the British mandate had been legally terminated due to the dissolution of the 'League of Nations', meaning that the Palestinian (Jews, Muslims, Christians) people lacked no sovereignty over their own state, and were legally bound to influence the appointment of a future Palestinian government. The UN possessed no right over Palestine, and therefore had no right to assign any of it's territory to a minority of the population. Lastly, the Partition Plan had no validity due to the fact that it was passed by the General Assembly not the UN Security Council. The UN General Assembly lacks any force in which to pass a resolution that would lead to the annoyance of one peoples for the others. Article 1 of the UN Charter states the right to 'self-determination' of all peoples; the partition plan denies that right to the Palestinian people.

 

The rejection of the Partition Plan was understandable, but the claim that the refusal, and the eventual Arab-Israeli war were to be basis enough for the enlargmenet of Jewish rights, and decreasing those of the Palestinians, is wrong.

 

The majority of Palestinian land was taken through forceful evictions, and tactics of intimidation. The Palestinian population was terrorised into leaving. Terrorist actions like the massacres in Deir Yassin, Jaffa, Jerusalem, Lydda and Ramle were all part of the implementation of 'Plan Dalet'. This plan was approved by the Haganah, and the eventual Israeli government. It was the implementation of Plan Dalet which started the war and prompted the so called invasions by Arab States. Plan Dalet, was the plan of the territories which forces were to illegally invade, and occupy, most of which were to be recognised as Palestinian under the 'UN Partition Plan'. Many of these operations occurred before the Arab-Israeli war, acting as a pretense for the war. Even when the Arab states did attack, the areas in which they fought were those to be allotted to Palestine in the Partition Plan, but the plan was understandably refused. Another significant point is, contrary to maps Israel had not declared official borders suggesting more settlement buildings, and evictions.

 

"Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad" (Ben-Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 530).

 

Jaffa was allotted to the Palestinians in the Partition Plan. Many Israeli historians have refuted their statements of 'the Arabs started war'. Israeli intelligence reports have also stated that 70% of the Palestinian population left due to expulsions, massacres, and intimidation. This left only 17% of the Palestinian population in the newly-established Israel. The creation of the Palestinian refugee problem is attributed to Israel, and therefore UN Resolution guarantees them full restitution, an inalienable right.

 

In regards to other negotiations, and Israel's supposed willingness to negotiate peace plans, and it's written adherence to UN Resolution 242; it's all been talk. Israel has yet to define international boundaries contrary to maps, as evidenced by their continuing settlement buildings across what is defined as Palestinian land. The Zionist beliefs uphold that those territories occupied are part of 'The Land of Israel' or 'Eretz Israel'. Withdrawals from the Egyptian Sinai mean nothing, when it is not even conisdered a part of Israel. Constant Israeli defiance of UN Resolutions continues today, as it has been for the past 35 years resulting in the occupied territories and oppression of Palestinian people.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<The ongoing suicide bombings killing Israeli innocents are horrific, to say the least. But just as horrific is the brutal occupation of Palestinian land, resulting in the deaths of thousands upon thousands of innocent Palestinians.>>>

Hmm, you mean like the "thousands" killed in Jenin? Such outright lies do such disservice to the Palestinian claims.

 

I'm talking about events such as Sabra and Shatilla, the massacres in Deir Yassin, Qibya, etc to benefit the creation of Israel by intimidating Palestinians to leave their land, and in many circumstances direct expulsion, the many villages in Southern Lebanon, such as Khiyam. An example you've pointed out is Jenin. Reports state that there was no evidence of a massacre, but sufficient evidence of Israeli war crimes, and that the majority of the dead were innocent civilians, whom were targeted.>>>

 

 

Again, if these reports are referring to Jenin, they are false. In Jenin, 7 Palestinian civilians died---and who shot them is still a debate.

 

 

<<<Palestinians target civilians. Israel does not.

Palestinians initiate the violence. Israel does not.

Palestinians are governed by sub-human monkeys with no accountability. Israel is not.  

 

This very statement is repeated relentlessly. Palestinian suicide bombings are horrible, unacceptable acts, and should be condemned and stopped. But as I said before, that same condemnation must be placed at the helm of the Israeli government.>>>

 

 

And THIS is the problem many of us have. "I condemn the bombers, BUT..."

 

There is NO "but" here. What those sub-human monkeys did is flat-out wrong. Israel did nothing to "deserve" this.

 

 

<<<Their military has displayed acts of reckless destruction. The last 18 months have left over 400 Israeli's, and 1500 Palestinians dead.>>>

 

 

Difference in death totals is horribly irrelevant. To use those as "proof" that Israel is the "bad guy"---or even morally equivalent---is intellectually dishonest. More Iraqis than Allies died during the Gulf War. I guess the Iraqis were, deep down, not that bad, huh?

 

Israel has shown REMARKABLE restraint. They COULD carpet bomb Palestinian settlements.

 

They don't do so.

 

 

<<<These figures are available from all news outlets worldwide, including the mainstream press in America. Saying there is no moral equivalence defies common sense and logic.>>>

 

 

No, saying there IS any shows a dearth of logic and an inability to see what is present right before your nose.

 

 

<<<So, 1500 Palestinians were killed due to 'collateral damage' as the Israeli government states.>>>

 

 

Absolutely. Israel does not target civilians---nor has it.

 

Palestinians DIRECTLY TARGET civilians.

 

The actions of the good people of Israel and the sub-human monkeys who run Palestine aren't comparable.

 

 

<<<It implies that the Palestinians who have been killed were so by accident? The Israeli military has an appalling human rights record towards the Palestinian population, such arguments that suicide bombing is 'worse' than the humane military of Israel should not suffice when discussing the issues.>>>

 

 

The Palestinian "military" does not exist. They have bombers who cowardly enter Israel and bomb civilians. Since Palestine has no military---but still wish to undertake militaristic actions, they have to suffer. Israel targets terrorist organizations. The terrorists---who are sub-human little monkeys, mind you---will use civilians to protect themselves.

 

The deaths of the Palestinian civilians are the fault of the terrorists.

 

 

<<<In debating we must realise that the deaths of innocents on both sides are to be condemned.>>>

 

 

Nobody's saying the death of Palestinian civilians is good. But there is a world of difference in the unintentional (and I'd be willing to bet that many of the deaths were caused by the terrorists) killing of innocents and the direct, intentional killing of innocents.

 

 

<<<The numerous statements which I've read often show a complete disgust of Arafat>>>

Oh, no. Araft would need A LOT of redemption to only warrant disgust.

, and the constant 'fact' that it is he who persists with the violence, and it is he whom refuses to negotiate.

Facts that are rather difficult to dispute, no? >>>

 

 

Firstly, support for Arafat within Palestine has been low for several years now.>>>

 

 

Which is why he launched the intifada in the first place.

 

 

<<<Hamas, and the other Palestinian terror groups hate Arafat, it's well known. Now, the constant assumption that Arafat and his political regime order such attacks, and that it is he who persists with the violence is just plain wrong.>>>

 

 

I don't suppose him calling bombers "martyrs" all the time is technically giving them support---oh heck, it is giving them support.

 

Arafat WANTS this. He has wanted this all along.

 

 

<<<These terrorist groups are only assisting those within Israel whom oppose peace. These attacks damage the cause of the Palestinians, and Arafat himself, something painfully obvious. If anything, the Palestinian government and Arafat are frowned upon for seemingly being 'traitors' to the Palestinian cause. The numerous peace negotiations have not once guaranteed anything substantial for the Palestinians.>>>

 

 

The Palestinians have shown no willingness to negotiate. If I were Israel, I wouldn't give them one square inch until the bombings stopped for one full year.

 

 

<<<The agreements maintain control over borders, water, agriculture, security, and the 22% of Historical Palestine asked for, is decreased yet further.>>>

 

 

Again, where were these complaints pre-1967, when fellow Muslims held the hand?

 

 

<<<The P.L.O group itself actually were first in attempting to start negotiations. In 1978, an issued statement said that the "PLO will accept an independent Palestinian state consisting of  the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with connecting corridor...">>>

 

 

And Israel would be foolish to give them that.

 

 

<<<Israel was attacked in the 1960's. They took over the land when they won. They were prepared to turn almost all of it over to Arafat and his band of sub-human monkeys in Oslo, but Yassir (in a REAL shocker) failed to live up to his end of the bargain.

And, again, if Israel's occupation is "illegal", let Egypt and Jordan do the griping, since they had the land before Israel.

 

As I spoke of above, the agreements have been worthless. Nine years on, and the Oslo Agreement has maintained the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, has led to more land expropriation, and settlement building;>>>

 

 

If Arafat can't abide by the Accords, he doesn't get the benefits.

 

 

<<<resulted in higher unemployment, and poverty for the Palestinians;>>>

 

 

No, the ineptitude of the economic model that every Muslim state in that region seems to follow results in that.

 

 

<<<and finally that life has just gotten worse. The Palestinian Authority is hated because it started the Oslo negotiations, and because it was willing to accept them despite losses for the Palestinian people. In practicality, the Israeli prolonged military occupation is aided by the PA's willingness to adhere to such agreements>>>

 

 

What part of the agreement has the PA adhered to? I'm sure the world would LOVE to know that.

 

 

<<<, and the US support for Israel has proved detrimental to the situation, and in exposing their allegiance to Israel despite its oppression of the Palestinian people.>>>

 

 

Israel is our only true ally over there and the only free country. If the rest of the monkeys in that region don't like it, then screw them.

 

If Kuwait has the audacity to be anti-U.S after we saved their butts in 1991, then let them die the next time they're invaded.

 

If Arabia continues to support Wahhabism, then we should pull support from them and let the Saud family fall.

 

If Egypt continues its anti-Israel policy, we should pull all support from them and let them fall.

 

And, it goes without saying, we should stop sending Palestine money immediately.

 

Let the region collapse economically.

 

 

<<<Now, in no way am I trying to say that the PA are great people, because the government there is corrupt, and has very very limited control over the Palestinian people.

 

Israeli's even admitted to starting the 1967 War. The Israeli claim was that Arab attack was imminent because Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser ordered the closure of the 'Straits of Tiran'.>>>

 

 

And, thus, they were on the verge of attack. The Arab States initiated hostility and Israel simply made it a point to beat them to the punch.

 

 

<<<Also,they reported shelling in the demilitarized zone of the Israeli/Syrian border. The zone, established in 1949, involved incessant provocations on both sides, yet never would it elicit war. Lastly, the fear of attack by Egyptian forces is proved even more worthless noticing that a third of the Egyptian Army was in Yemen at the time. The Egyptian Air Force which Israel reported would be eventual attackers, were in fact attacked by Israel whilst on the ground. >>>

 

 

Because the Egyptian military was inept (as most militaries are in that region) does not mean that Israel was wrong in protecting itself.

 

 

<<<Famous quotes by General Matityahu Peled who played a huge role in the situation, formulating a plan with others to once again conquer the Sinai peninsula, which was at the root of the debacle and Menachim Begin.

 

"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war" 19 March 1972 - Ha'aretz - General Matityahu Peled

 

Prime Minister Menachem Begin, in a speech at the Israeli National Defense College: "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."  8 August 1982 - excerpts printed in 21 August issue of  Jerusalem Post

 

Quote  

Certain rights Palestinians DON'T deserve. I wouldn't give them ANY control over the airways. I wouldn't allow them to build up a military.  

 

 

In essence you are denying the rights of Palestinians to self-determination, what was denied to the Palestinian population upon the creation of Israel on Palestinian land.>>>

 

 

Palestine didn't own the land regardless. It was British before that. They've shown no ability to live as a civilized society, so why should anybody give them any power?

 

 

<<<European anti-Semitism understandably warranted pleas for a Jewish homeland, but the fact that this European anti-Semitism resulted in a Jewish homeland being created at the expense of the Palestinian people, whom had done nothing wrong, was wrong. Palestinians were denied their right to self-determination and still are.>>>

 

 

What rights does Palestine have to the land? They have none.

 

And, again, where was this hue and cry amongst the Palestinian people when Israel DIDN'T own the land?

 

I'll give them that they had good timing to wait to gripe until a country gained the land that wouldn't slaughter them at the drop of a hat.

 

 

<<<A military was built for Israel, as were airways. These were used as tools to oppress the Palestinian people. Palestinian suicide bombing is wrong. The military occupation is wrong.>>>

 

 

Nope, it's not wrong. Occupations occur all over the place and many are for very just and fair reasons. Heck, Iraq's airways are "occupied" by the Allies to protect the Kurds from Hussein.

 

 

<<<A Palestinian state must be created, and one that gives Palestinians freedom, and the basic human rights all people deserve. If a state were created, attacks continued, and the authorities didn't deal with them, then Israel would be justified in an incursion or form of 'retaliation' complete with backing from the international community.>>>

 

 

They wouldn't get the support because continental Europe is horribly anti-Semitic (and becoming worse). They'd then have ANOTHER country who hates them for being Jewish AND the only country over there with an economy that actually works. This is a total no-win situation for Israel.

 

What does Israel gain by giving Palestine anything? Do you think the attacks would stop? There's no chance of that. Arafat and his band of monkeys want Israel to cease to exist. Nothing less.

 

 

<<<But, the current military occupation, and the numerous incursions all in the name of 'security' has done nothing but provide means for retaliation upon retaliation. Israel's militray might would crush the entire Middle East.>>>

 

 

Israel could EASILY crush the Middle East. And they show remarkable restraint in not doing so.

 

 

<<<Yet Arafat gets a Nobel Peace Prize in spite of ALL of his murderous activities. Ah, the consistency of the pro-Palestine lobby.

 

Yet Yitzhak Rabin, too, a former army general who was involved in murdering Palestinians gets a peace prize.>>>

 

 

I love this constant refrain that, somehow, the Palestinians have never done anything to bring any suffering upon themselves.

 

Let's just use now as an example. How long had the intifada been going on until Israel FINALLY sent tanks into the occupied territory? How many bombings had Israel suffered before they retaliated?

 

It's like saying Japan was treated unfairly because we attacked them after they bombed us.

 

There is NO moral equivalence here. If Palestinians didn't bomb Israel, Israel wouldn't mess with them whatsoever.

 

 

<<<Both didn't deserve a prize, or recognition whatsoever. The Oslo Accord was in effect a bunch of crap. As stated above, contrary to misinformed reports, Arafat is simply a disconnected idealist. The modicum of control he has over the Palestinian people is not at all over Hamas and the other terrorist groups. I don't like Arafat, and I feel both governments need to undergo major changes, but the occupation must end in order to provide viability for the government and its peoples.>>>

 

 

And Israel would be beyond insane to give them a state.

 

 

<<<Simple question: If the intifada was not going on, would Israel be messing with Arafat and his collection of sub-human thugs? No, they have other things to worry about---liking maintaining a free country and the like.

 

Israel would be maintaining the brutal military occupation which oppresses the Palestinian people, denying basic rights, instigating hatred, and diminishing the security for innocents on both sides.>>>

 

 

Palestinians have more rights in Israel than they'd have in any other country in that area.

 

 

<<<The second (recent) Intifada was sparked by Ariel Sharon whilst on a visit to 'Temple Mount', a place of worship for both Jews and Muslims. On Friday, the Muslim day of prayer, Israeli soldiers surrounded the site, whilst Sharon toured inside, prohibiting anyone wishing to pray. Considering this was the Muslim day of prayer, stones were thrown, shots were fired, and Palestinians were killed on the day.>>>

 

 

After the Church of the Nativity, expecting me to feel ANY sympathy for anybody pissing on the Palestinians' desire to practice their faith is laughable.

 

Heck, I wouldn't have minded if Sharon took a copy of the Koran and wiped his BUTT with it.

 

 

<<<The Israeli citizens who elected him were understandably looking for security, but what must be understood is that maintaining the occupation will never establish security in Israel.>>>

But appeasing Arafat WILL?

 

Appeasing the Palestinina people will.>>>

 

 

And the lessons of history are still not learned.

 

 

<<<Both Palestinians and Israeli's suffer due to the maintenance of the occupation. A Palestinian state would establish security, peace, and equality for both peoples.>>>

 

 

That is a pipe dream. A Palestinian state would "show" that Israel was weak and would inspire the sub-human monkeys to unleash more attacks.

 

 

<<<And if attacks continued, Israel would be justified in a possible retaliation complete with international backing.>>>

 

 

They're justified right now. And if the world doesn't support them, screw the world.

 

 

<<<I could go back into the truth of Jenin and how this little "massacre" is probably about as honest as the other "atrocities" committed by Israel.

Damn those Jews for not just accepting being massacred, huh?

 

 

You only bring up Jenin, which actually did show human rights violations, and wanton destruction by the Israeli military.>>>

 

 

No, it did not. PALESTINIANS blew up most of the buildings---according to the PALESTINIAN terrorists. Israel did NOTHING wrong there whatsoever.

 

On the other hand, Palestine lied about the death counts, booby-trapped numerous buildings, had women call the troops over to get them in position for the bombs to go off, etc.

 

 

<<<There have been numerous atrocities, with possibly the Sabra & Shatilla massacre being that often brought up. 3000 Palestinian and Lebanese innocents were killed. Proven were rapes, mutilations, general torture, and other sickening acts. Ariel Sharon is held accountable.>>>

 

 

Again, you act as if Palestinians and Libyans were just innocently sitting around when this happened.

 

 

<<<The settlement buildings and land expropriation is not stopping attacks on Israeli civilians.

Again, appeasing the sub-human monkeys WILL?

 

 

Again, appeasing the Palestinian people will.>>>

 

 

That, again, is a total pipe dream.

 

 

<<<In fact, I think appeasing them sounds too extreme. It's giving Palestinians the basic rights guaranteed to all people, but the ones that they've been denied. >>>

 

 

Denying them the rights guaranteed to all people?

 

I'm sure Christians and Jews in Muslim-led countries would love to hear about the rights they have---but they're too busy getting slaughtered by the Church.

 

 

<<<The only two options left are to either withdraw from the territories leading to a creation of a Palestinian state in which all peoples can live side by side with equal rights or simply the mass killing of all Palestinians.>>>

I second the latter. Appeasement won't work, so option one is not a possibiliy. And, if the Palestinians REFUSE to live in peace, then let Israel do whatever necessary to resolve their problem.

 

 

Yet again, you've totally ignored the fact that the occupation exists, and it is this occupation that is at the heart of all the problems.>>>

 

 

You ignore that the attacks would occur regardless. The PLO wants Israel TO NOT EXIST.

 

 

<<<This occupation means that Palestinians are unable to live in peace, and are unable to live with the basic rights over land, agriculture, water, and work. It's simple, the illegal occupation Israel maintains produces illegal settlements, illegal slave labourers, which generates illegal profits for the country. Security and peace over profits.>>>

 

 

Actually, Israel would be wise to completely overwhelm the Palestinians, slaughter anybody who even contemplated becoming a bomber, and daring the rest of the world to attack.

 

They'd have peace, security, profits---and since the world can't possibly be MORE against them, they won't lose too much prestige, either.

 

 

<<<No, it's called Israel is fighting for their survival and unfortunately for Palestine, Israel has a competent military.

 

 

You've kind of dispelled your own point. The Israeli military along with it's strong alliance with the US government means it would crush the entire Middle East quite easily. Israel could just as easily crush the Palestinian population, but in doing so the government would equate to genocidal evil bastards, who would be condemned worldwide. Instead, they opt to enforce the military occupation, denying Palestinians their rights to self-determination and equality, whilst gradually building more settlements, and generating more profits.>>>

 

 

So, the fact that Israel CAN wipe out the Palestinians with ease---but don't do so---makes them bad guys?

 

Israel is fighting to stop the bombings. Plain and simple. Bombings stop and Israel ceases to care about what the little sub-human monkeys who run Palestine do.

 

 

<<<There is a distinction to be made. Israel does not represent the entire Jewish race, but people often mis-interpret criticism of Israel, as anti-Jewish sentiment. Far from it, there are many many Jewish people who are opposed to Israeli actions, and who support a Palestinian state.>>>

And they aren't living in constant terror of people walking into malls and clubs and blowing them to bits.  

 

 

Even some Israeli civilians, those whom are represented by the Israeli government, are against the occupation, and yet they live in fear of bombings. That's the point, they realise that what the Palestinians are being subjected to is cause for more hatred, and more death. My other point was that, unfortunately there are reports of attacks on Jews worldwide, and ones often exploited. The actions of the Israeli government don't represent the Jewish people, but unfortunately for the Israeli civilians, they do have a role in supposedly representing the people. Much like the corrupt Palestinian Authroity, this is a bad thing for both peoples. But, this has more to do with political ideologies (socialism, anarchism, etc.).>>>

 

 

I don't doubt that some Israelis oppose the occupation.

 

As I said, idiots reside everywhere.

 

 

<<<There are also Israeli civilians opposed to the actions of their government, and who wish for a Palestinian state to be created.>>>

I'm sure there are. Idiots reside all over the place.  

 

 

That's a very harsh comment, in your recent comment you imply that no one understands what it can be like living in such conditions, yet here you are willing to criticise those who do.>>>

 

 

Absolutely---and I don't think twice about it. If anybody seriously believes that the attacks would stop if Israel just left the poor Palestinians alone, they are either naive or unbelievable stupid.

                      -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Again---when Palestine behaves a little more like Gandhi, you might have a point. Until then, there is nothing too brutal that Israel could do to the monkeys that run the PLO.

 

 

The assasination of the Israeli Tourism Minister who regarded Palestinians as a 'cancer', was wrong despite the racist views of the man. However, the 'targeted attacks' as labelled by the Israeli government, resulting in the deaths of Palestinian government officials, many of whom are innocent, elicits no stories or outcries.>>>

 

 

How many of these officials are innocent? And, again, world of difference between targeting officials and targeting innocent civilians. The Palestinian officials are partly responsible for the bombings.

 

The Israeli civilians are not responsible for the retaliatory---and justified---strikes.

 

 

<<<Israel's brutal occupation is one that attacks the Palestinian people, no matter what they do. If I were to follow your rationale, then I'd state that there is nothing too brutal that could be done to those in the Israeli government.>>>

 

 

I'd love to see Palestine TRY and do something. Enough of this killing of innocents crap.

 

They, again, have more rights than they'd have in any other state in that region.

 

 

<<<Because it isn't true. The IDF is scrupulous in avoiding civilian casualties. The Palestinians deliberately try to inflict them. Claiming that the two sides are morally equivalent isn't just false, it's obscene.

 

In the last 18 months, there have been over 1500 Palestinian deaths.>>>

 

Where are these figures from? If they're from the PLO or the UN, I don't buy them one tiny bit. Palestine lives and dies by exaggerating the "damage" done to them.

Do you see IDF troops entering Palestinian diners and mowing down innocents? Do you see IDF troops entering buses and just opening fire?

No---but homicide bombers do that with bombs.

 

 

The figures are from worldwide media outlets.>>>

 

 

And mean squat. 1500 Palestinians deaths. As if the fact that somebody who STARTED a conflict---but is losing the fight---is absolved of the responsibility for initiating it in the first place.

 

 

<<<I don't see IDF troops entering Palestinian diners, or buses. But I do see IDF troops bulldozing houses, destroying villages, and killing innocent people.>>>

 

 

So, bulldozing homes and destroying villages is comparable to walking into diners and clubs and blowing people up? Sad.

 

And Israel does an amazingly good job of avoiding innocent casualties.

 

 

<<<The suicide bombings are attacks on human life, and are wrong. The actions of the military are attacks on human life, and are wrong. These IDF troops do these things with guns, tanks, F16s, and weapons purchased with money from the US taxpayer.>>>

 

 

So what? Israel is being attacked. They HAVE to fight back. They have to make terrorism so damaging to the terrorist that they'd NEVER wish to pursue that tactic.

 

 

<<<Were all of them collaborators of terrorist attacks, or all plotting suicide bombings? Of course not. I can honestly document hundreds of offences the IDF has committed against Palestinian citizens.>>>

 

Then do so. But, be sure to mention the Palestinian atrocities. You should hold the countries to the same standard.

 

 

Is this a joke? This is the exact same thing I'm accusing you of; taking into account only the Palestinian suicide bombings. As evidenced by my posts, I do take them into account, I just feel that the atrocities Israel commits are often shrugged away here.>>>

 

 

Because Israel IS NOT INITIATING THEM.

 

That is a HUGE difference.

 

If they were not bombed, they'd not be in the occupied territory. They have better things to do.

 

Palestine STARTS these conflicts because they know that the world will end up fellating Arafat as they always tend to do.

 

 

<<<So, you call the assumption of anti-Semitism in the Arab press "asinine"---but then acknowledge it's authenticity. Point out the slurs of Palestinians in the Israeli press. I can just point you to MEMRI.org to document the anti-Semitism of the Arab state press.

 

 

I clearly stated, that the Arab mainstream press is not one that throws around calls to kill Jews, and the like.>>>

 

 

And that, flat out, is inaccurate. The state-run press features unspeakable anti-Semitism. Religious leaders unleash unspeakable anti-Semitism regularly.

 

 

<<<Much like throughout the world, extremist journals belonging to extremist organisations often call for horrible things. For example, journals for the NF in Britain promote racism. I have visited MEMRI.org quite a lot, got a link to it about two months ago. However, I find that the headlines placed upon the articles are usually horrendous in representing the actual content.>>>

 

 

I find the headlines to be brutally honest. MEMRI does not have a political bent and they refuse all government money to make sure that they are completely impartial.

 

 

<<<I totally object to the anti-Semitism, no matter how slight it is. There were also some examples of Israeli newspapers. The site however, is based upon researching the several articles that many would object to specifically in the West.>>>

 

 

The site reviews press from the Arab states. To attempt to claim that they are just looking for articles that would be objectionable to the West is laughable.

 

 

<<<I heard of recent comments made by Republican Dick Armey on MSNBC's 'Hardball' show, in which he advocated the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. There have been several such columns sharing the view within mainstream newspapers such as the Washington Post and several op-ed pieces in New York Times, etc. The comment by Armey has yet to receive a media outcry, and all this can be based upon the Israeli propaganda within America.>>>

 

 

No, it's based on our observing that Palestine refuses to live peacefully. Given a choice between Israeli existence and Palestinians existence, I will choose Israel without blinking.

 

 

<<<Same can be said of the Arab states and their press, which you've mentioned.>>>

 

 

Except that dissenting views are allowed here.

 

 

<<<Except that Israeli civilians don't tend to strap bombs to their chest, walk into crowded Palestinian gatherings and blow themselves up.

 

Oh, and they don't specifically target children.

 

Don't think Israelis held priests hostage at the Church of the Nativity anytime recently.

 

 

No, instead, soldiers are ordered to root out 'terrorists' resulting in the deaths of innocent civilians, and more destruction to the livelihoods of the Palestinians.>>>

 

 

And the deaths of innocents and destruction of livelihoods (laughable, considering how miserable the economies of the Muslim states are) are the fault of the terrorists. They launch attacks and then hide amongst the civilians---the ultimate act of cowardice.

 

 

<<<Much like you said before, we've got to take into account both sides of the story. Also, let's not forget about the killings of two nuns by Israeli soldiers.>>>

 

 

Never heard this story.

 

 

<<<Of course there is anti-Semitism, and there are the ignorant idiots out there who believe that the actions of Israel are a direct representation of the Jewish race as a whole. But this is not helped by the exploitation of anti-Semitism by the Israeli government. The Holocaust itself has been exploited by several organizations to aid Israel, which in turn has left a few victims of the Holocaust with no monetary compensation whatsoever.

 

Where are these victims? If you're going to make absurd claims, expect to get called on it.

 

 

Well-known author, Norman G. Finkelstein, who wrote a book called 'The Holocaust Industry' documents the exploitation of the cause, and how his mother, a victim of the Holocaust, has yet to get monetary compensation. He cites many examples. The book was a good read but contained a few errors. >>>

 

 

Which means that it's believability is low. Books with "a few errors" tend to have dramatically more the more you examine it.

 

 

<<<This bitter hatred exists, but you've yet to state that it also exists on the part of Israel, especially within the Israeli government.

 

Hmm, there are Arab members of the Knesset.

I assume non-Muslims have any authority in the PLO, right?

What? They DON'T?

I am shocked---SHOCKED, I tell you.

 

 

Israel's declaration of independence defines the state as both Jewish and Democratic, and guaranteeing equality to all it's citizens regardless of race or religion. However, obviously, the state consists of predominantly Jews, and so they are treated to special treatment. In 1992, 'Basic Law' was passed which expressed freedom for all it's citizens, and the state was defined as 'Jewish and Democratic'...and umm, nothing else. They failed to guarantee equality to all citizens. >>>

 

 

Israel IS a Jewish state. For them to claim otherwise would be both dishonest and an insult to the brave men who created this one haven of freedom in that Godforsaken hellhole. If Palestinians didn't attack Israel, they'd have no restrictions placed upon them.

 

 

<<<Secondly, there are political restrictions towards Arabs who are hoping to run for elections. Those who attempt must not question the 'Basic Law' amendment stating 'denial of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people', meaning that those running cannot question the integrity of the state as purely Jewish, and therefore not giving equal rights to all regardless of race and religion, which in turns practically forces the candidate to accept Zionist ideology.>>>

 

 

No, it's more like telling them that they won't be allowed to do away with the Israeli Constitution. Extremist groups regularly tend to attempt to do so when they're given any power and Israel learned the lesson of Weimar Germany.

 

 

<<<Anyone who doesn't accept this, whether Jew or Arab or anyone else, is disqualified. The 'Basic Law' of Israel suggests there is no equality between Jew and Arab, or Jew and...anyone else, for that matter. >>>

 

 

No, it states that Israel is a Jewish state. They enter the government knowing that and Israel will not allow them to attempt to kill the state from within.

 

 

<<<Another law - 'The Law of Return' states that every Jew has the right to immigrate and be granted instant citizenship to Israel, this means citizenship can also be granted to their marital partners, children and grandchildren. Yet, any other person must be born within Israel, and thus their parents must have Israeli citizenship. This clearly discriminates against the millions of Palestinians who have been refused entry back into their country, and homeland.>>>

 

 

Every country has the right to determine the rights of eligibility to be citizens.

 

I assume the Muslim states have more open citizenship requirements?

 

 

<<<To add to this, the several worldwide Jewish federations, have great influence over the political status of Israel, and have authority over several key political elements such as land ownership, etc. These federations, being only representative of Jew's means there is more discrimination to the ethnic minorities within Israel. >>>

 

 

Israel is a Jewish state. To complain that Jews tend to be the focus of the state is like griping that the French are the main concern of the French government.

 

 

<<<Other laws within the government discriminate against minority, such as the Budget law, dealing with the state funds. They refuse to disclose what monies should be placed for the ethnic minorities. All this means is that the lack of ethnic minority representation within the government means the ethnic minorities recieve little funding for their areas. Why don't more people simply try and represent? Because then they'd have to accept the fact that there is no right of equality in Israel.>>>

 

 

Then they can LEAVE. Israel---with everything you've mentioned---is STILL far more free than any other country in that hellhole; and Muslims and non-Jews get far more rights there than any other state in that hellhole. Is Israel COMPLETELY open and TOTALLY free? No---and neither is any state in the world.

 

But they're worlds better than anybody in that hellhole.

 

 

<<<However, it is a fact that terrorist organisations exist among the Palestinians, and the Palestinian people as a whole have been deceived over several decades into swallowing anti-Semitic Nazi pseudoscience by their own so-called "leaders." It is a fact that mainstream Arab newspapers, usually published by the state governments, regularly print baseless, venomous screeds against Israel as a country and the Jews as a race. It is a fact that Arafat's rigidly-controlled media apparatus broadcasts and publishes viciously anti-Semitic material in a near constant stream of filth. It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of the population in all Middle Eastern states is sharply anti-Israel. Pretending that the niceties of your distinction between Zionism and the Jewish people are appreciated in that region, that when people burn the Star of David and scream "Death to the Jews," they don't really mean it - all this would strike me as comical if I didn't have the sickening feeling that I would've heard you saying the same things in 1938.  

 

 

The problem here is, that the Israeli leadership too, has promoted the hatred of the Arabs. The Israeli leaders of the past, Golda Meir, Ben-Gurion, Begin, all have stated horrid things towards the Arabs. Before Israel's creation, the process of evicting Palestinians from land was in full effect under 'Plan Dalet'. Even now, leaders such as Sharon and the assasinated tourism minister I spoke of regard the Palestinians as terrorist villains, and a 'cancer'.>>>

 

 

Let's pretend that you see a group of people who will walk into diners and blow people up. You see a group of people who will attempt to smuggle bombs on ambulances. You see a group of people who will put secondary bombs on themselves to kill the rescue workers.

 

At what point would you lose a lot of respect for them?

 

 

<<<you know, fatmanfoleyfan, I used to think that Israel was the oppressor and were getting a free pass in the conflict.  But with each "suicide bombing," that conviction faded away.  The continued attacks on civilians as well as Yasser's typical antics have turned me completely onto Israel's side.  The biased media coverage has also contributed.  If Arafat would have held up his end of each agreement, and the Palestinians had fought honorably (instead of attacking innocents) I would have agreed with your stance.  However this has not been the case and it does not seem it ever will be... so I must take a pro-Israel position.  

 

 

'Fought honorably'? Sustaining the military occupation has led to the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinian people. It's this continued occupation that provides a source for retaliatory measures on both sides, which in turn helps escalate the hatred. We all know the suicide bombings are horrific, and these bombings don't represent the Palestinian people.>>>

 

 

You see, I hear that---but I'm not buying it. There is no shortage of young men who are willing to do this (and, contrary to what some people would like to think, they don't do it for religious or any other reasons---they do it so they can nail some maidens in the afterlife). There is no shortage of families who support this (Heck, Mrs. Arafat supports it).

 

It may not represent the thoughts of ALL Palestinians---but it represents the thoughts of A LOT of them.

                    -=Mike

[Guest]

The last 18 months have left over 400 Israeli's, and 1500 Palestinians dead. These figures are available from all news outlets worldwide, including the mainstream press in America.

 

I wouldn't exactly call the American press a source of truth and impartiality.  CNN's coverage has a clear pro-Palestine bias.

 

Now, the constant assumption that Arafat and his political regime order such attacks, and that it is he who persists with the violence is just plain wrong.

 

I don't see him doing anything to stop them.  I don't hear him condemning them.  Ever.  With terrorism, you either support it or you're against it... there is no in-between. Arafat's resounding silence in regard to these attacks is deafening.

 

A Palestinian state must be created, and one that gives Palestinians freedom, and the basic human rights all people deserve.

 

I wouldn't call control over airways and the right to build a military "basic human rights."

 

A Palestinian state would establish security, peace, and equality for both peoples. And if attacks continued, Israel would be justified in a possible retaliation complete with international backing.

 

It absolutely would not.  Israel would not just hand over all the lands to which Palestinians lay claim.  Immediately, Palestinians would claim a lack of equality.  Renegade Palestinians would continue fighting over disputed lands in the same ways they have been for years.  This eliminates peace.  And a Palestinian state would surely build up an army to take back lands it feels it has a right to.  This throws security out the window.

 

Israel could just as easily crush the Palestinian population, but in doing so the government would equate to genocidal evil bastards, who would be condemned worldwide.

 

The fact that Israel does not crush the Palestinian population should tell you something.

 

...but we have a right to feel for them, and try to understand the conditions, and what has brought upon their beliefs. The Israeli civilians who oppose the actions of their government...are to be truly commended...  The same can be said of the Palestinians who too wish for peace, side-by-side.

 

What about the Israeli civilians who support the actions of their government?  Can we feel for them too?

 

However, the 'targeted attacks' as labelled by the Israeli government, resulting in the deaths of Palestinian government officials, many of whom are innocent, elicits no stories or outcries.

 

I don't hear any Palestinian government officials condemning the suicide attacks, so I would hardly call them innocent.  

 

The actions of the military are attacks on human life, and are wrong. These IDF troops do these things with guns, tanks, F16s, and weapons purchased with money from the US taxpayer.

 

All war is carried out by humans so there will always be attacks on human life.  IDF troops use traditional weapons of war... they don't strap themselves with bombs and blow up innocent people.

 

I wasn't referring to you, instead referring to the handling of the situation by the general media especially in the US.

 

Check out CNN's web site.  They're clearly pro-Palestine.

 

The Arabs had done nothing wrong to warrant such an action, and all they see is lot's of people coming in and taking their land.

 

As if Jews have had no experience of that.  Allow me to print an e-mail story I received in regards to this conflict:

 

<<The prime minister of Israel sits down with Arafat at the

beginning of negotiations regarding the resolution of the

conflict. Prime Minister Sharon requests that he be

allowed to begin with a story.

 

Arafat replies, "Of course."

 

The prime minister begins his story: "Years before the

Israelites came to the Promised Land and settled here,

Moses led them for 40 years through the desert. The

Israelites began complaining that they were thirsty and,

lo and behold, a miracle occurred and a stream appeared

before them. They drank their fill and then decided to

take advantage of the stream to do some bathing --

including Moses. When Moses came out of the water, he

found that all his clothing was missing.

 

"'Who took my clothes?' Moses asked those around him.

 

"'It was the Palestinians,' replied the Israelites.

 

"Wait a minute," objected Arafat immediately, "there were

no Palestinians during the time of Moses!"

 

"All right," replied the prime minister. "Now that we've

got that settled, let's begin our negotiations.">>

[Guest Risk]

This may sound extreme, but desparate times call for...well, you know the rest.  I think we(the US)should remove all leaders in Palestine with connections to terrorists.  We then put it under US control until we find a way to stop all the terrorist acts.  Just a thought.

[Guest Risk]

Hell, we may eventually have to place a ban on religion to stop all these terrorist acts.  Not a solution with much freedom, but it would save lives.

[Guest DrTom]

"I think we(the US)should remove all leaders in Palestine with connections to terrorists.  We then put it under US control until we find a way to stop all the terrorist acts."

 

The last thing we need to do is get directly involved in this mess.  What we should do is immediately and unequivocally support Israel, and double the amount of aid we give them.  Out going over there and putting Palestine under US control would just make us the targets of the terrorist attacks, instead of Israel.  Sorry, that's not a very good solution in my opinion.

 

"Hell, we may eventually have to place a ban on religion to stop all these terrorist acts.  Not a solution with much freedom, but it would save lives."

 

What a ridiculous idea.  How would you "ban religion?"  Burn all mosques?  Execute the clergy?  I'll agree that radical Islam is a serious problem, but your "solution" wouldn't do anything to solve it.  Too many people have already bought the bill of goods and been indoctrinated.  Besides, your idea would push the religion underground and make even bigger heroes out of the assholes who encourage other people to walk into bus stations with C4 strapped to their chests.

[Guest fatmanfoleyfan]

<<<The ongoing suicide bombings killing Israeli innocents are horrific, to say the least. But just as horrific is the brutal occupation of Palestinian land, resulting in the deaths of thousands upon thousands of innocent Palestinians.>>>

Hmm, you mean like the "thousands" killed in Jenin? Such outright lies do such disservice to the Palestinian claims.

I'm talking about events such as Sabra and Shatilla, the massacres in Deir Yassin, Qibya, etc to benefit the creation of Israel by intimidating Palestinians to leave their land, and in many circumstances direct expulsion, the many villages in Southern Lebanon, such as Khiyam. An example you've pointed out is Jenin. Reports state that there was no evidence of a massacre, but sufficient evidence of Israeli war crimes, and that the majority of the dead were innocent civilians, whom were targeted.>>>

Again, if these reports are referring to Jenin, they are false. In Jenin, 7 Palestinian civilians died---and who shot them is still a debate.

 

http://www.btselem.org - Israeli information centre for human rights in the occupied territories

 

Two weeks ago, the Israeli Army admitted using human shields, by releasing a statement saying they would prohibit the use of such tactics.

 

"Human Rights Watch researchers also identified other serious violations of the laws and customs of war, such as the practice of shielding, in which Palestinian civilians were used to screen Israeli soldiers from return fire. Shielding, while not a "grave breach" of international humanitarian law, is nonetheless absolutely prohibited and warrants investigation."

-HRW excerpt from findings, link below:

 

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/recent/MDE150892002!Open - Amnesty International

 

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/ - Human Rights Watch investigation of Jenin

 

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel....htm#P234_38516 - Highlights the deaths and casualties. States that there were 52 deaths, 22 confirmed civilians, whilst others were suspected of being part of terror groups. Also includes information of how some were killed.

 

"At least four persons were killed by the IDF because they were outside during curfews or walked in areas declared "closed" by the Israeli army. Such use of lethal force to enforce curfews or "closed" areas is a widespread practice by the IDF. The use of lethal force against civilians who do not abide by curfews or are found in "closed" areas is unjustified, and a violation of the international humanitarian law provisions prohibiting the targeting of civilians. International humanitarian law requires that the IDF use less lethal means to enforce its curfews and "closed" areas."

 

<<<Palestinians target civilians. Israel does not.

Palestinians initiate the violence. Israel does not.

Palestinians are governed by sub-human monkeys with no accountability. Israel is not.  

This very statement is repeated relentlessly. Palestinian suicide bombings are horrible, unacceptable acts, and should be condemned and stopped. But as I said before, that same condemnation must be placed at the helm of the Israeli government.>>>

And THIS is the problem many of us have. "I condemn the bombers, BUT..."

 

There is NO "but" here. What those sub-human monkeys did is flat-out wrong. Israel did nothing to "deserve" this.

 

The point I've been making here and the one you fail to understand is that there would be no 'but' on both sides if Israel were not enforcing this occupation. The military occupation is flat out WRONG. The actions of the Israeli army are flat out WRONG. Also, saying that Israel did nothing to deserve this is in great contradiction to your support of Israeli military incursions, the occupation, and thus implying that Palestinian civilians deserve to die for terrorist actions committed by a minority. These innocent civilians on both sides did nothing to deserve suicide bombings, or be oppressed by a military occupation.

 

<<<Their military has displayed acts of reckless destruction. The last 18 months have left over 400 Israeli's, and 1500 Palestinians dead.>>>

Difference in death totals is horribly irrelevant. To use those as "proof" that Israel is the "bad guy"---or even morally equivalent---is intellectually dishonest. More Iraqis than Allies died during the Gulf War. I guess the Iraqis were, deep down, not that bad, huh?

Israel has shown REMARKABLE restraint. They COULD carpet bomb Palestinian settlements.

They don't do so.

 

Firstly, there are no Palestinian 'settlements'. Settlements are in reference to those illegally built on Palestinian land, by the Israeli government.

 

And no, the figures weren't to show that Israel is THE bad guy, but to show that the Israeli army too is a BAD GUY, much like the Palestinian terrorists. It does show moral equivalence, one which you refuse to accept in the face of the facts.

 

Iraqis/Allies - This has nothing to do with it, if you want to bring up Iraq, then at least acknowledge the weekly bombings by America which have resulted in thousands of innocent Iraqi children dying, if you can justify this as retaliation, or Israel's act as retaliation, then the suicide bombings too are justifiable to you. But it's not justifiable, we all agree that the deaths of innocents are wrong, and the deaths of innocents are a regular occurrence for innocent Palestinians and innocent Israeli's alike. This whole myth of 'REMARKABLE restraint'. The only reason Israel does not simply 'kill' the Middle East is because they'd be faced with worldwide condemnation, and even MORE justified criticism of Israel, which they can't simply lay claim to being anti-Semitic. There is condemnation of Israel's action, and condemnation of the Palestinian actions, but criticism of Israel results in the abhorrent use of labelling someone anti-Semitic or disguising the deplorable actions as justified retaliatory measures. The killings of innocents are not justified, as we both agree, therefore Israel's actions against the Palestinians which result in the majority of innocent deaths is not justifiable. It's the occupation that has extremely furthered the hatred, so much so that these disgusting actions on both sides are seemingly justified. My point is that you always state that Israel's actions are retaliatory, but then all Palestinian suicide bombings would have to be regarded as direct retaliation to Israeli forces, and the occupation.

 

 

<<<These figures are available from all news outlets worldwide, including the mainstream press in America. Saying there is no moral equivalence defies common sense and logic.>>>

No, saying there IS any shows a dearth of logic and an inability to see what is present right before your nose.

 

Claiming no moral equivalence, simply shows your denial of the substantial evidence, or your saying that one form of murder is more morally correct than another.

 

<<<So, 1500 Palestinians were killed due to 'collateral damage' as the Israeli government states.>>>

Absolutely. Israel does not target civilians---nor has it.

Palestinians DIRECTLY TARGET civilians.

The actions of the good people of Israel and the sub-human monkeys who run Palestine aren't comparable.

 

http://www.web.amnesty.org/web....ocument

--- Amnesty International 2001 Report of Israel and the Occupied Territories.

 

Excerpt below:

"The Intifada

On 29 September Israeli police using excessive force killed five Palestinians and injured more than 200 others at the al-Aqsa Mosque precinct in Jerusalem. The shooting sparked daily demonstrations and riots in Israel and the Occupied Territories which were continuing at the end of the year.

 

Israeli security services killed at least 300 and wounded more than 10,000 Palestinians. The majority of those killed and wounded were demonstrators throwing stones or using slings; at least 100 of those killed were children under 18. The Israeli police, border police, special patrol force and IDF used excessive lethal force, firing rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition including high-velocity bullets at demonstrators. Some Palestinians were deliberately targeted and extrajudicially executed. The Israeli airforce and the navy used heavy weaponry, including helicopter gunships, tanks and naval vessels, to shell randomly Palestinian areas from where armed Palestinians had opened fire. They also used heavy weaponry to conduct punitive raids against PA facilities.

 

Armed Palestinians, including members of the tanzimat - Palestinian paramilitary groups linked to Fatah, the predominant group in the PLO - carried out attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians in the Occupied Territories. A number of gunbattles took place between the IDF and Palestinian security services or paramilitary groups. Palestinian armed opposition groups such as Islamic Jihad also placed bombs which killed six Israeli civilians. Israeli settlers were reported to have killed six Palestinian civilians.

 

* Eleven-year-old Sami Abu Jazzar was shot dead during a stone-throwing demonstration in Rafah, Gaza Strip, in October by Israeli soldiers who were based in a blockhouse 100 metres away and who were not in danger at the time.

* Hussein 'Abayat, a local leader of the tanzimat, was extrajudicially executed in Beit Sahur in the West Bank by a shell launched from an Israeli helicopter gunship which killed two women standing near his van and injured nine others. An IDF spokesperson admitted that Hussein 'Abayat had been targeted, allegedly because he was going to launch an attack on Gilo settlement.

* Two Israeli civilians were killed in a bomb attack near Jerusalem's Mahan Yehuda market on 2 November. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack."

 

The Israeli army much like the Palestinian terrorists commit disgusting crimes, and murder innocent civilians. Both should be condemned. There should be no dispute of moral equivalence.

 

The Palestinian "military" does not exist. They have bombers who cowardly enter Israel and bomb civilians. Since Palestine has no military---but still wish to undertake militaristic actions, they have to suffer. Israel targets terrorist organizations. The terrorists---who are sub-human little monkeys, mind you---will use civilians to protect themselves.

The deaths of the Palestinian civilians are the fault of the terrorists.

 

When did I ever bring up a 'military' in Palestine? About the whole targetting thing, just look at the sufficient evidence. Wishing to take militaristic actions, etc, has no bearing on the deaths of innocent civilians. So, the actions of the Israeli Army are state sanctioned? Does that make the murders of innocents any more morally correct? No, the fact that it is state sanctioned means that the criticism of Israel's policies are warranted. The deaths of Palestinian civilians are the fault of the terrorists? Such inane statements are easily responded to with 'the deaths of Israeli civilians are the fault of the military and government'. It's wrong to state such things, so let's refrain from doing so.

 

<<<The numerous statements which I've read often show a complete disgust of Arafat>>>

Oh, no. Araft would need A LOT of redemption to only warrant disgust.

, and the constant 'fact' that it is he who persists with the violence, and it is he whom refuses to negotiate.

Facts that are rather difficult to dispute, no? >>>

Firstly, support for Arafat within Palestine has been low for several years now.>>>

Which is why he launched the intifada in the first place.

 

This is a common statement used by pro-Israeli analysts. The problem is, it's just a statement with biased opinions. Negotiations were still taking place during the 'Intifada'. At the time, illegal settlements had doubled, and the occupation had worsened despite the Camp David negotiations with the pathetic offers (see my last post for information). Ariel Sharon's visit to Temple Mount, and the Israeli soldiers surrounding (reported to be a 1000) provoked protests involving stone-throwing, and rioting. However, the Israeli army has stated that no shots were fired by the Palestinian protesters. The response by the Israeli soldiers resulted in five Palestinian deaths and 200 injured (see the above AI report).

 

[http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/mitchell.htm] - The Mitchell Report

 

"The [Government of Israel] asserts that the immediate catalyst for the violence was the breakdown of the Camp David negotiations on July 25, 2000 and the "widespread appreciation in the international community of Palestinian responsibility for the impasse." In this view, Palestinian violence was planned by the PA leadership, and was aimed at "provoking and incurring Palestinian casualties as a means of regaining the diplomatic initiative."

 

"In their submissions, the parties traded allegations about the motivation and degree of control exercised by the other. However, we were provided with no persuasive evidence that the Sharon visit was anything other than an internal political act; neither were we provided with persuasive evidence that the PA planned the uprising."

 

"Accordingly, we have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence at the first opportunity; or to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the GOI to respond with lethal force."

 

"The Sharon visit did not cause the "Al-Aqsa Intifada." But it was poorly timed and the provocative effect should have been foreseen; indeed it was foreseen by those who urged that the visit be prohibited. More significant were the events that followed: the decision of the Israeli police on September 29 to use lethal means against the Palestinian demonstrators; and the subsequent failure, as noted above, of either party to exercise restraint."

 

The reports attempt at seeming even-handed, and placing blame on both sides is understandable. Israeli provocation and violence fueled the uprisings spread, and therefore accepting the claim that Arafat and the PA started it, shows no reasoning.

 

<<<Hamas, and the other Palestinian terror groups hate Arafat, it's well known. Now, the constant assumption that Arafat and his political regime order such attacks, and that it is he who persists with the violence is just plain wrong.>>>

I don't suppose him calling bombers "martyrs" all the time is technically giving them support---oh heck, it is giving them support.

Arafat WANTS this. He has wanted this all along.

 

Arafat has condemned the bombings, and twice within the Palestinian jurisdiction called for a halt in the violence and the suicide bombings. Fine, all politicians have to do this, but Arafat isn't a respected figurehead in Palestine, and he's one who ascertains very little control of the Palestinian people.

 

<<<These terrorist groups are only assisting those within Israel whom oppose peace. These attacks damage the cause of the Palestinians, and Arafat himself, something painfully obvious. If anything, the Palestinian government and Arafat are frowned upon for seemingly being 'traitors' to the Palestinian cause. The numerous peace negotiations have not once guaranteed anything substantial for the Palestinians.>>>

The Palestinians have shown no willingness to negotiate. If I were Israel, I wouldn't give them one square inch until the bombings stopped for one full year.

 

The Palestinians were those who elicited negotiations in the 70s, the first of it's kind. Israel ALWAYS rejected negotiations. The historical negotiations often cited were those in 93,95, and 97. All were horrible negotiations, all of which focused primarily on the security of the Israeli people whilst offering the Palestinians no terrtitorial continuity, rights over water, borders, agriculture, and failed to withdraw totally, whilst stating nothing on the right to return, another huge issue in the conflict.

 

Now, how about Israel withdraws from the occupied territories, grants the Palestinians the human and territorial rights which they have been without including security officials, and offices which aren't bombed frequently. And if an attack occurred they [israel] could justifiably retaliate.

 

Another year of the occupation, is just what Israel has always been doing, stalling and trying not to partake in a viable settlement. Continuing the occupation only angers the Palestinian people, and forces them to live like crap for another year. Israel doesn't want to lose the illegal profits, and produce. Despite the people, the government's don't care.

 

<<<The agreements maintain control over borders, water, agriculture, security, and the 22% of Historical Palestine asked for, is decreased yet further.>>>

Again, where were these complaints pre-1967, when fellow Muslims held the hand?

 

Where were the complaints? EVERYWHERE! The refugee problem, and constant land evictions from 1947 onwards were opposed by international law, and were illegal. The Palestinians didn't have means to contest such actions, and thus the innumerable UN resolutions passed at the time stating the right to return, and the end of settlement buildings, and denial of self-determination for the Palestinians, none were adhered to. 1967 brought upon the Military Occupation, and that is what is now opposed, and this is what oppresses the Palestinian population.

 

Gaza and the West Bank were territories yet to be invaded by Israel. Egyptian and Jordanian forces used them as areas in which to retreat so they could go back to their own borders. In 1967, Egyptian air forces were located on the Egyptian border outside of Gaza, whilst Jordanian forces were located on the Jordanian border outside of the West Bank. Forces were there regularly in case of an eventual Israeli invasion as after the 1956 war, plans by Israel to capture the Egyptian Sinai were leaked.

 

An American spy ship 'Liberty' was able to make all Egyptian radars malfunction and break down, meaning Israeli forces were able to strike, leading to the destruction of the Egyptian air planes. Jordanian forces were called upon but they had no air forces, as were Syrian forces. The Golan Heights in Syria was captured by Israel. Israeli forces also attacked the Jordanian forces by invading. The Israeli forces eventually retreated back into the West Bank and Gaza and began the Military Occupation. UN Resolution 242 orders the Withdrawal as does 338, but Israel refused, and still do.

 

<<<Israel was attacked in the 1960's. They took over the land when they won. They were prepared to turn almost all of it over to Arafat and his band of sub-human monkeys in Oslo, but Yassir (in a REAL shocker) failed to live up to his end of the bargain.

And, again, if Israel's occupation is "illegal", let Egypt and Jordan do the griping, since they had the land before Israel.

As I spoke of above, the agreements have been worthless. Nine years on, and the Oslo Agreement has maintained the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, has led to more land expropriation, and settlement building;>>>

If Arafat can't abide by the Accords, he doesn't get the benefits.

 

Actually settlement building doubled, and Israel just tightened its grip on the territories contrary to the agreement.

 

<<<resulted in higher unemployment, and poverty for the Palestinians;>>>

No, the ineptitude of the economic model that every Muslim state in that region seems to follow results in that.

 

What economic model? 60% of Palestinians live under the poverty rate because they have no means of work. The very few allowed to work in Israel, usually males aged 35+ make little money. The constant settlements take Palestinian produce, and exploit slave labourers. There is no right over agriculture. The borders stop import/export which is vital for business. All of this due to the Occupation.

 

<<<and finally that life has just gotten worse. The Palestinian Authority is hated because it started the Oslo negotiations, and because it was willing to accept them despite losses for the Palestinian people. In practicality, the Israeli prolonged military occupation is aided by the PA's willingness to adhere to such agreements>>>

What part of the agreement has the PA adhered to? I'm sure the world would LOVE to know that.

 

Specifically those in 93,95, and 97. If Palestinians are denied an independent state with basic human rights over water, agriculture, security and work, then there will be no negotiation. It's as simple as that, and rightfully so. In turn, Israel draws criticism for it's refusal to negotiate with something actually worthy and in the interests of the Palestinians as well as the Israeli's, and draws criticism for the occupation, and their treatment of Palestinians.

 

<<<, and the US support for Israel has proved detrimental to the situation, and in exposing their allegiance to Israel despite its oppression of the Palestinian people.>>>

Israel is our only true ally over there and the only free country. If the rest of the monkeys in that region don't like it, then screw them.

If Kuwait has the audacity to be anti-U.S after we saved their butts in 1991, then let them die the next time they're invaded.

If Arabia continues to support Wahhabism, then we should pull support from them and let the Saud family fall.

If Egypt continues its anti-Israel policy, we should pull all support from them and let them fall.

And, it goes without saying, we should stop sending Palestine money immediately.

Let the region collapse economically.

 

The powerful Jewish lobby in America has greatly influenced the government and society, which has led to a tighter allegiance between the two. The billions in aid ($93 billion so far) has helped to fund the Israeli occupation, all from the US taxpayer. Egypt along with Jordan recognise Israel. The recent Saudi peace plan, states that all Arab states recognise Israel's right to exist, and its independence as long as the Occupation is ended with full withdrawal.

 

Letting the region collapse economically would hurt the Western market greatly, simply because of the vast amounts of oil exported. Quite simply America's support for Israel was simply due to it's military power, and the fact that it is the strongest country in the region.The blatant bias and support for Israel by the most powerful country in the world, has led to uproarious disapproval across the world. If America really wishes there to be peace in the region, they will have to condemn the Israeli government by decreasing the aid given, or halting it.

 

Palestine didn't own the land regardless. It was British before that. They've shown no ability to live as a civilized society, so why should anybody give them any power?

 

Now you're just re-writing history. Palestinians have inhabited the land of Palestine (referred to as Historical Palestine) for thousands of years. If the creation of Israel is attributed to a 2000 year historical claim, then the Palestinians too have stake to the land. Palestinians owned and inhabited the land. Palestine was a home to Muslims, Christians, and Jews who lived peacefully with each other.

 

In 1914 Britain guaranteed all under the Ottoman Empire recognised independent states if theyw ere to revolt against the rulers. Palestine was guaranteed a state of independence by 1948 or before. Jewish immigration to Palestine rose at the time, and they were accepted into the community.

 

However, in 1917 the Balfour Declaration showed sympathy towards the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine, yet did not officially call for it to be done. The end of the war in 1918 granted Britain and France control of the areas formally under the Ottoman Empires. All were still guaranteed independence. In 1919 however, Lord Balfour (quote available in my last post) stated his approval of the Zionist dream in establishing a Jewish state in Palestine at the expense of 700,000 Arabs who inhabited the land.

 

With Palestine under the British mandate, 20% of Palestine was owned by the Palestinian public, while the other 80% was regarded public meaning the legal inhabitants had a stake to it. The assumption that the creation of Israel was established fairly with Jews purchasing land is not true. Firstly the 20% of Palestinian land owned by Palestinians included homes, and land in which to farm and produce, never would they be sold. Secondly, the public land could not be bought. However, the few who immigrated at the time would simply approach the authority and ask for places in which to live; the government would in actuality sell it to them for practically peanuts, whilst they'd still be of public property. In the 20s, the rise in Jewish immigration caused riots between the Arab and Jewish communities, as Palestinians believed that the promise of an independent state would not be fulfilled.

During this time, Zionist forces involved themselves in major terrorist actions.

 

In 1939, the beginning of WW2 and the rise of Hitler, and Jewish persecution prompted immigration. Many were denied entry into other countries including America which denied 20,000. They fled to Palestine. By 1946, worldwide opinion supported the creation of Jewish state due to the Holocaust, understandably. Independence was given to all states except for Palestine. In 1947, Plan Dalet was undertaken to ensure an Israeli state, as Palestinian villages were illegally invaded, and occupied by Zionist forces resulting in the evictions of many, and hundreds of deaths. The UN attempted a partition plan but due to the dissolution of the League of Nations, they had no power in which to assign the territory to a minority. The future government of the state was to be decided by those in the jurisdiction, but with the constant evictions, by 1948 Israel proclaimed itself the Jewish state leaving only 17% of Palestinian population that inhabited the land, and were made refugees. The British Mandate legally guaranteed a Palestinian state for all Palestinians and future immigrants.

 

<<<European anti-Semitism understandably warranted pleas for a Jewish homeland, but the fact that this European anti-Semitism resulted in a Jewish homeland being created at the expense of the Palestinian people, whom had done nothing wrong, was wrong. Palestinians were denied their right to self-determination and still are.>>>

What rights does Palestine have to the land? They have none.

And, again, where was this hue and cry amongst the Palestinian people when Israel DIDN'T own the land?

I'll give them that they had good timing to wait to gripe until a country gained the land that wouldn't slaughter them at the drop of a hat.

 

There are so many things absolutely wrong with that. If Palestinian people don't have a stake to the land, then Israeli's don't. If we were to change countries worldwide based on 2000 year old claims, many countries would cease to exist including America.

 

Where was the cry amongst Palestinians when Israel didn't own the land. What the hell are you talking about? The creation of a Jewish state at the complete and utter disgregard of the Palestinian people, and Palestine itself resulted in condemnation and countless riots in the early 20th century, but the Zionist forces such as the Haganah, Irgun etc, were involved in numerous operations under 'Plan Dalet' to expel Palestinians directly, or with intimidation, and thus invade and occupy towns and villages illegally by force, massacring Palestinians, and destroying homes.

 

European anti-Semitism doesn't justify the creation of another state at the expense of an entire population. The Palestinian rights to that of self-determination were denied, and still are.

 

<<<A military was built for Israel, as were airways. These were used as tools to oppress the Palestinian people. Palestinian suicide bombing is wrong. The military occupation is wrong.>>>

Nope, it's not wrong. Occupations occur all over the place and many are for very just and fair reasons. Heck, Iraq's airways are "occupied" by the Allies to protect the Kurds from Hussein.

 

Iraqi airways being occupied mean absolutely nothing; it's a totally different thing, and an idiotic comparison to make. Israel is ILLEGALLY occupying Palestinian land by placing thousands of illegal soldiers at the borders, and creating dozens of ILLEGAL settlements whilst ILLEGALLY denying Palestinians the most primitive rights all through brutal and forceful measures. That's illegal, that's wrong, and there are no just and fair reasons for this, other than amassing illegal profits or simply wanting to oppress the Palestinian people.

 

<<<A Palestinian state must be created, and one that gives Palestinians freedom, and the basic human rights all people deserve. If a state were created, attacks continued, and the authorities didn't deal with them, then Israel would be justified in an incursion or form of 'retaliation' complete with backing from the international community.>>>

They wouldn't get the support because continental Europe is horribly anti-Semitic (and becoming worse). They'd then have ANOTHER country who hates them for being Jewish AND the only country over there with an economy that actually works. This is a total no-win situation for Israel.

What does Israel gain by giving Palestine anything? Do you think the attacks would stop? There's no chance of that. Arafat and his band of monkeys want Israel to cease to exist. Nothing less.

 

European criticism of Israel is justified because of the illegal occupation, you're simply unable to accept that instead dismissing it as flagrant anti-Semitism. Israel is built on the foundations that it hates the Arabs due to its creation, and by maintaining the occupation they just demonstrate it even more. The Israeli economy whilst relying on the occupation and slave labourers is in a great down-period.

 

Let me explain why a Palestinian state needs to be created. A Palestinian state needs to be created to give the Palestinians their basic rights to freedom. A viable Palestinian state in which Palestinians can live peacefully free from the occupation, with control over their water, their agriculture, and their futures must be guaranteed. In turn, with no Occupation, meaning there is no source of hatred, and violence, security is given to both sides. Your views on the European community are wrong, the media itself is still somewhat pro-Israel, but the fact is that they haven't totally forgotten about the Occupation, the single source of hatred, violence, oppression, and eventually innocent deaths on both sides. If attacks continue then there would be no 'but', there would be no reasoning, therefore Israel who'd be looked upon in a much more favorable light, would be given support by the international community, and quite simply would sympathise with them.

[Guest fatmanfoleyfan]

<<<Yet Arafat gets a Nobel Peace Prize in spite of ALL of his murderous activities. Ah, the consistency of the pro-Palestine lobby.

Yet Yitzhak Rabin, too, a former army general who was involved in murdering Palestinians gets a peace prize.>>>

I love this constant refrain that, somehow, the Palestinians have never done anything to bring any suffering upon themselves.

Let's just use now as an example. How long had the intifada been going on until Israel FINALLY sent tanks into the occupied territory? How many bombings had Israel suffered before they retaliated?

It's like saying Japan was treated unfairly because we attacked them after they bombed us.

There is NO moral equivalence here. If Palestinians didn't bomb Israel, Israel wouldn't mess with them whatsoever.

 

I think I'll emphasize 'OCCUPATION' so you can get it through your head. The OCCUPATION, the illegal one placed upon the Palestinians, which oppresses them brutally and violently, takes their land, and kills innocents is wrong. This fuels protests, and this wrongly so fuels the suicide bombings.

If Israel are really interested in a Palestinian state, the security of it's own people, and an end to the violence, they must look at the illegal OCCUPATION it has maintained, and they must end it.

 

<<<Simple question: If the intifada was not going on, would Israel be messing with Arafat and his collection of sub-human thugs? No, they have other things to worry about---liking maintaining a free country and the like.

Israel would be maintaining the brutal military occupation which oppresses the Palestinian people, denying basic rights, instigating hatred, and diminishing the security for innocents on both sides.>>>

Palestinians have more rights in Israel than they'd have in any other country in that area.

 

Palestinians have no rights under the OCCUPATION. I know Palestinians living in Egypt, and they live peacefully with rights, and they work, make money, go out freely, and enjoy life.

 

<<<The second (recent) Intifada was sparked by Ariel Sharon whilst on a visit to 'Temple Mount', a place of worship for both Jews and Muslims. On Friday, the Muslim day of prayer, Israeli soldiers surrounded the site, whilst Sharon toured inside, prohibiting anyone wishing to pray. Considering this was the Muslim day of prayer, stones were thrown, shots were fired, and Palestinians were killed on the day.>>>

After the Church of the Nativity, expecting me to feel ANY sympathy for anybody pissing on the Palestinians' desire to practice their faith is laughable.

Heck, I wouldn't have minded if Sharon took a copy of the Koran and wiped his BUTT with it.

 

Don't forget about the Christian community in Palestine. This event was before the Church of the Nativity, and you're just making stupid generalised insults. The actions of a few Palestinians means that the entire Muslim community does not deserve respect? Surely the actions of some Israeli's, and the army means that the Jewish community deserves no respect? Both are wrong. Actions by the minority don't represent a whole peoples.

 

<<<The Israeli citizens who elected him were understandably looking for security, but what must be understood is that maintaining the occupation will never establish security in Israel.>>>

But appeasing Arafat WILL?

Appeasing the Palestinian people will.>>>

And the lessons of history are still not learned.

 

Lessons of history? You mean the constant oppression of Palestinians by Israel since it's birth, killing innocents, and thus instigating more violence, rendering the OCCUPATION useless. The Israeli government knows that it won't work, but they don't do a damn thing about it.

 

<<<And if attacks continued, Israel would be justified in a possible retaliation complete with international backing.>>>

They're justified right now. And if the world doesn't support them, screw the world.

 

Then I guess suicide bombings are just as justified, they both kill innocents.

 

<<<There have been numerous atrocities, with possibly the Sabra & Shatilla massacre being that often brought up. 3000 Palestinian and Lebanese innocents were killed. Proven were rapes, mutilations, general torture, and other sickening acts. Ariel Sharon is held accountable.>>>

Again, you act as if Palestinians and Libyans were just innocently sitting around when this happened.[/quotes]

 

Firstly, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that LIBYANS come from LIBYA, wilst LEBANESE people from LEBANON. The Sabra & Shatilla Massacre - Sabra & Shatilla refugee camps in Lebanon. Ariel Sharon ordered the Israeli army to surround the camps whilst the Phalange (Extremist Lebanese Christians who despise Palestinians) were hired to 'maintain' the camp. For two days, three thousand innocents were brutally massacred.

 

Honestly, if you're going to make such statements at least try and learn more about the situation, the history etc.

 

<<<The settlement buildings and land expropriation is not stopping attacks on Israeli civilians.

Again, appeasing the sub-human monkeys WILL?

Again, appeasing the Palestinian people will.>>>

That, again, is a total pipe dream.

<<<In fact, I think appeasing them sounds too extreme. It's giving Palestinians the basic rights guaranteed to all people, but the ones that they've been denied. >>>

Denying them the rights guaranteed to all people?

I'm sure Christians and Jews in Muslim-led countries would love to hear about the rights they have---but they're too busy getting slaughtered by the Church.

 

In no way am I dismissing these people suffering, or those oppressed like the Kurds etc, but we're talking about the Palestinian situation, this has no effect on the situation or Israeli policy, bringing these wrongs up in order to justify another wrong is wrong. As to why those being oppressed worldwide aren't getting enough international coverage, I'd like to know too.

 

Yet again, you've totally ignored the fact that the occupation exists, and it is this occupation that is at the heart of all the problems.>>>

You ignore that the attacks would occur regardless. The PLO wants Israel TO NOT EXIST.

 

Then surely the Israeli government doesn't want the Palestinians to exist. These comments are useless. The OCCUPATION instigates the attacks, but if they were to continue upon creation of a Palestinian state, then Israel would retaliate under justifiable means.

 

<<<No, it's called Israel is fighting for their survival and unfortunately for Palestine, Israel has a competent military.

You've kind of dispelled your own point. The Israeli military along with it's strong alliance with the US government means it would crush the entire Middle East quite easily. Israel could just as easily crush the Palestinian population, but in doing so the government would equate to genocidal evil bastards, who would be condemned worldwide. Instead, they opt to enforce the military occupation, denying Palestinians their rights to self-determination and equality, whilst gradually building more settlements, and generating more profits.>>>

So, the fact that Israel CAN wipe out the Palestinians with ease---but don't do so---makes them bad guys?

Israel is fighting to stop the bombings. Plain and simple. Bombings stop and Israel ceases to care about what the little sub-human monkeys who run Palestine do.

 

THEY WOULD NEVER WIPE OUT THE PALESTINIANS BECAUSE THEN THEY WOULD GET WORLDWIDE CONDEMNATION. EVEN AMERICA WOULD REVOLT AGAINST THIS. America could wipe out Iraq with ease, why don't they do that? They still bomb them every week, but why not just wipe them out, right? right? Yeah, and then maybe they can like wipe out all the EVIL Arabs, right? right?

 

They are 'bad guys' because they kill innocent people, and deny Palestinians basic rights, and maintain the OCCUPATION. Even if bombings stop, OCCUPATION continues.

 

<<<There is a distinction to be made. Israel does not represent the entire Jewish race, but people often mis-interpret criticism of Israel, as anti-Jewish sentiment. Far from it, there are many many Jewish people who are opposed to Israeli actions, and who support a Palestinian state.>>>

And they aren't living in constant terror of people walking into malls and clubs and blowing them to bits.  

Even some Israeli civilians, those whom are represented by the Israeli government, are against the occupation, and yet they live in fear of bombings. That's the point, they realise that what the Palestinians are being subjected to is cause for more hatred, and more death. My other point was that, unfortunately there are reports of attacks on Jews worldwide, and ones often exploited. The actions of the Israeli government don't represent the Jewish people, but unfortunately for the Israeli civilians, they do have a role in supposedly representing the people. Much like the corrupt Palestinian Authroity, this is a bad thing for both peoples. But, this has more to do with political ideologies (socialism, anarchism, etc.).>>>

I don't doubt that some Israelis oppose the occupation.

As I said, idiots reside everywhere.

 

It's a shame you're one of them - HA! (cue: boos and hisses). Nope, only kidding, my good friend. Israeli's oppose the occupation because they understand that another persons suffering doesn't uphold peace.

 

So what? Israel is being attacked. They HAVE to fight back. They have to make terrorism so damaging to the terrorist that they'd NEVER wish to pursue that tactic.

 

So, Palestinians have to fight back against the Occupation. It's all WRONG! WRONG! It only results in innocent deaths.

 

Because Israel IS NOT INITIATING THEM.

That is a HUGE difference.

If they were not bombed, they'd not be in the occupied territory. They have better things to do.

Palestine STARTS these conflicts because they know that the world will end up fellating Arafat as they always tend to do.

 

The OCCUPATION has been around for 35 years, it is illegal, and unwarranted. This initiates violence.

 

<<<I heard of recent comments made by Republican Dick Armey on MSNBC's 'Hardball' show, in which he advocated the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. There have been several such columns sharing the view within mainstream newspapers such as the Washington Post and several op-ed pieces in New York Times, etc. The comment by Armey has yet to receive a media outcry, and all this can be based upon the Israeli propaganda within America.>>>

No, it's based on our observing that Palestine refuses to live peacefully. Given a choice between Israeli existence and Palestinians existence, I will choose Israel without blinking.

 

The Palestinians have acknowledged Israel's right to exist. But the OCCUPATION must end. Dick Armey's comments were stupid, and promote ethnic hatred.

 

<<<Except that Israeli civilians don't tend to strap bombs to their chest, walk into crowded Palestinian gatherings and blow themselves up.

Oh, and they don't specifically target children.

Don't think Israelis held priests hostage at the Church of the Nativity anytime recently.

No, instead, soldiers are ordered to root out 'terrorists' resulting in the deaths of innocent civilians, and more destruction to the livelihoods of the Palestinians.>>>

And the deaths of innocents and destruction of livelihoods (laughable, considering how miserable the economies of the Muslim states are) are the fault of the terrorists. They launch attacks and then hide amongst the civilians---the ultimate act of cowardice.

 

Muslim states this, Muslim states that. Stick to the Palestine/Israel situation. Palestine is made up of all faiths. Most of the Middle Eastern countries hold Muslims, and Christians. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are Muslim states but still contain Christians, and Jews. I don't doubt there is discrimination, but it has no bearing on the Palestine situation.

 

Which means that it's believability is low. Books with "a few errors" tend to have dramatically more the more you examine it.

 

'The Holocaust Industry' take a chance to read it. Errors I speak of were ones in relation to dates.

 

<<<Anyone who doesn't accept this, whether Jew or Arab or anyone else, is disqualified. The 'Basic Law' of Israel suggests there is no equality between Jew and Arab, or Jew and...anyone else, for that matter. >>>

No, it states that Israel is a Jewish state. They enter the government knowing that and Israel will not allow them to attempt to kill the state from within.

 

Nope, if you actually read the laws passed in 92, gone is the guarantee of equality for anyone despite race, religion, nationality etc.

 

<<<Another law - 'The Law of Return' states that every Jew has the right to immigrate and be granted instant citizenship to Israel, this means citizenship can also be granted to their marital partners, children and grandchildren. Yet, any other person must be born within Israel, and thus their parents must have Israeli citizenship. This clearly discriminates against the millions of Palestinians who have been refused entry back into their country, and homeland.>>>

Every country has the right to determine the rights of eligibility to be citizens.

I assume the Muslim states have more open citizenship requirements?

 

Over four million Palestinian refugees have been made now. The common myth is that expulsion of Jews in Arab states during the time of Israel's creation justify the expulsion of Palestinians from their homeland. That is wrong. Some Jews were discriminated against in the neigbouring states, but Jews lived peacefully in such states. The possibility of a creation of a Jewish state meant many Oriental Jews immigrated, whilst in some cases dissention was exploited. For example, the Iraqi Jewish population was once bombed to spark off feelings of racial tension. However, Zionist forces planted the bomb in order to intimidate Jews into coming to Israel, so they could expand the territory.

 

<<<To add to this, the several worldwide Jewish federations, have great influence over the political status of Israel, and have authority over several key political elements such as land ownership, etc. These federations, being only representative of Jew's means there is more discrimination to the ethnic minorities within Israel. >>>

Israel is a Jewish state. To complain that Jews tend to be the focus of the state is like griping that the French are the main concern of the French government.

 

Obviously Jews are the focus, they are the majority as I've stated. But Israel claims that all peoples live equally, and given the same rights but that's not true and in direct contradiction with it's Basic Law which states no right to equality.

 

<<<However, it is a fact that terrorist organisations exist among the Palestinians, and the Palestinian people as a whole have been deceived over several decades into swallowing anti-Semitic Nazi pseudoscience by their own so-called "leaders." It is a fact that mainstream Arab newspapers, usually published by the state governments, regularly print baseless, venomous screeds against Israel as a country and the Jews as a race. It is a fact that Arafat's rigidly-controlled media apparatus broadcasts and publishes viciously anti-Semitic material in a near constant stream of filth. It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of the population in all Middle Eastern states is sharply anti-Israel. Pretending that the niceties of your distinction between Zionism and the Jewish people are appreciated in that region, that when people burn the Star of David and scream "Death to the Jews," they don't really mean it - all this would strike me as comical if I didn't have the sickening feeling that I would've heard you saying the same things in 1938.  

The problem here is, that the Israeli leadership too, has promoted the hatred of the Arabs. The Israeli leaders of the past, Golda Meir, Ben-Gurion, Begin, all have stated horrid things towards the Arabs. Before Israel's creation, the process of evicting Palestinians from land was in full effect under 'Plan Dalet'. Even now, leaders such as Sharon and the assasinated tourism minister I spoke of regard the Palestinians as terrorist villains, and a 'cancer'.>>>

Let's pretend that you see a group of people who will walk into diners and blow people up. You see a group of people who will attempt to smuggle bombs on ambulances. You see a group of people who will put secondary bombs on themselves to kill the rescue workers.

At what point would you lose a lot of respect for them?

 

Exact same things Zionist forces did before and after Israel's creation including bus bombs, the bombing of the King David Hotel etc. It's all wrong, but that's just a minority of the people.

 

<<<you know, fatmanfoleyfan, I used to think that Israel was the oppressor and were getting a free pass in the conflict.  But with each "suicide bombing," that conviction faded away.  The continued attacks on civilians as well as Yasser's typical antics have turned me completely onto Israel's side.  The biased media coverage has also contributed.  If Arafat would have held up his end of each agreement, and the Palestinians had fought honorably (instead of attacking innocents) I would have agreed with your stance.  However this has not been the case and it does not seem it ever will be... so I must take a pro-Israel position.  

'Fought honorably'? Sustaining the military occupation has led to the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinian people. It's this continued occupation that provides a source for retaliatory measures on both sides, which in turn helps escalate the hatred. We all know the suicide bombings are horrific, and these bombings don't represent the Palestinian people.>>>

You see, I hear that---but I'm not buying it. There is no shortage of young men who are willing to do this (and, contrary to what some people would like to think, they don't do it for religious or any other reasons---they do it so they can nail some maidens in the afterlife). There is no shortage of families who support this (Heck, Mrs. Arafat supports it).

It may not represent the thoughts of ALL Palestinians---but it represents the thoughts of A LOT of them.

 

And I guess there's many Israeli's who believe in the permanent extinction of all things Palestinian. Hatred exists on both sides, to the point where both are willing to involve themselves in horrific crimes against human life.

 

The last 18 months have left over 400 Israeli's, and 1500 Palestinians dead. These figures are available from all news outlets worldwide, including the mainstream press in America.

I wouldn't exactly call the American press a source of truth and impartiality.  CNN's coverage has a clear pro-Palestine bias.

 

Neither would I, it's a source for primarily pro-Israeli bias. CNN is horrible, a lot of their debates consist of just an Israeli spokesman to document his side of the story. Many times, they just enlist the help of US Senators who are the epitome of the stereotypical white racist, but are bribed into support for Israel. Shows such as Q&A however attempt impartiality.

 

Now, the constant assumption that Arafat and his political regime order such attacks, and that it is he who persists with the violence is just plain wrong.

I don't see him doing anything to stop them.  I don't hear him condemning them.  Ever.  With terrorism, you either support it or you're against it... there is no in-between. Arafat's resounding silence in regard to these attacks is deafening.

 

He's condemned the actions, even on Palestinian TV. Problem is, he has no control. It was even shown on the news recently, his statements in Arabic condemning the attacks.

 

A Palestinian state must be created, and one that gives Palestinians freedom, and the basic human rights all people deserve.

I wouldn't call control over airways and the right to build a military "basic human rights."

 

I never said any the military has anything to do with it, but the airways are basic state rights, and are needed for a viable economy in trade.

 

A Palestinian state would establish security, peace, and equality for both peoples. And if attacks continued, Israel would be justified in a possible retaliation complete with international backing.

It absolutely would not.  Israel would not just hand over all the lands to which Palestinians lay claim.  Immediately, Palestinians would claim a lack of equality.  Renegade Palestinians would continue fighting over disputed lands in the same ways they have been for years.  This eliminates peace.  And a Palestinian state would surely build up an army to take back lands it feels it has a right to.  This throws security out the window.

 

Hand over? It's a matter of get out of the occupied territories. A Palestinian state would be overlooked to ensure militaristic operations were not planned. The OCCUPATION eliminates peace.

 

Israel could just as easily crush the Palestinian population, but in doing so the government would equate to genocidal evil bastards, who would be condemned worldwide.

The fact that Israel does not crush the Palestinian population should tell you something.

 

They don't want to be criticised and condemned even more. Could you imagine the backlash? The whole sympathy card that Israel plays up would be gone. A good comparison is the recent plans to attack Iraq, it's always put on hold, and debated, simply because America does not want to be condemned and criticised even more for inhumane practises.

 

...but we have a right to feel for them, and try to understand the conditions, and what has brought upon their beliefs. The Israeli civilians who oppose the actions of their government...are to be truly commended...  The same can be said of the Palestinians who too wish for peace, side-by-side.

What about the Israeli civilians who support the actions of their government?  Can we feel for them too?

 

Yes, of course, because what has brought upon their beliefs is the exploitation of the conflict, and understandably so.

 

However, the 'targeted attacks' as labelled by the Israeli government, resulting in the deaths of Palestinian government officials, many of whom are innocent, elicits no stories or outcries.

I don't hear any Palestinian government officials condemning the suicide attacks, so I would hardly call them innocent.  

 

I don't hear Israeli government officials condemning the military operations, and occupation... oh that's right, they order them.

 

The actions of the military are attacks on human life, and are wrong. These IDF troops do these things with guns, tanks, F16s, and weapons purchased with money from the US taxpayer.

All war is carried out by humans so there will always be attacks on human life.  IDF troops use traditional weapons of war... they don't strap themselves with bombs and blow up innocent people.

 

Israeli army has killed thousands of innocents, and violated countless human rights, and rules of war.

 

The Arabs had done nothing wrong to warrant such an action, and all they see is lot's of people coming in and taking their land.

As if Jews have had no experience of that.  Allow me to print an e-mail story I received in regards to this conflict:

<<The prime minister of Israel sits down with Arafat at the

beginning of negotiations regarding the resolution of the

conflict. Prime Minister Sharon requests that he be

allowed to begin with a story.

Arafat replies, "Of course."

The prime minister begins his story: "Years before the

Israelites came to the Promised Land and settled here,

Moses led them for 40 years through the desert. The

Israelites began complaining that they were thirsty and,

lo and behold, a miracle occurred and a stream appeared

before them. They drank their fill and then decided to

take advantage of the stream to do some bathing --

including Moses. When Moses came out of the water, he

found that all his clothing was missing.

"'Who took my clothes?' Moses asked those around him.

"'It was the Palestinians,' replied the Israelites.

"Wait a minute," objected Arafat immediately, "there were

no Palestinians during the time of Moses!"

"All right," replied the prime minister. "Now that we've

got that settled, let's begin our negotiations.">>

 

EUROPEAN ANTI-SEMITISM IS NOT JUST CAUSE FOR THE CREATION OF A STATE AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

 

Philistines/Israelites/Canaanites - Who gives a damn in the end, because that story states that if Israel can claim a 2000 year old stake to the land, then others can do so, resulting in the non-existence of many countries including America, Britain, and dozens of Middle Eastern countries, those in Europe... I could go on.

 

Also, 'Palestinians' much like 'Israelis' weren't words at the time. 'Philistines' and 'Israelites'.

[Guest Shaved Bear]

anyone who calls a suicide bombing anything less than terrosm should get hit in the head with a rock

[Guest gthureson]

In the first half of the twentieth century, the area of Israel/Palestine/Jordan was a British mandate.  We know this.

 

It was split into two sections by Winston Churchill.  One half was given the name Trans-Jordan, the other half given the name Palestine.   These were just names given to them by the British government.

 

Most of this conflict could have been resolved through a better choice of words by the British.

 

What is Churchill had called 'Trans-Jordan' Palestine instead.

 

And called 'Palestine' Judah.

 

Because Trans-Jordan (which is pretty much modern day Jordan) was a Palestinian state, and easily could have been a Palestinian homeland.

 

Its far too late for that now, of course, but its something to ponder.   The name of a thing can end up being very important.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Again, if these reports are referring to Jenin, they are false. In Jenin, 7 Palestinian civilians died---and who shot them is still a debate.

 

 

http://www.btselem.org - Israeli information centre for human rights in the occupied territories

 

Two weeks ago, the Israeli Army admitted using human shields, by releasing a statement saying they would prohibit the use of such tactics.>>>

 

 

From the home page:

 

"B'TSELEM - The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel."

 

Go ahead and read what it's actually saying---this is a PRO-PALESTINIAN group. No way I believe them.

 

 

 

<<<"Human Rights Watch researchers also identified other serious violations of the laws and customs of war, such as the practice of shielding, in which Palestinian civilians were used to screen Israeli soldiers from return fire. Shielding, while not a "grave breach" of international humanitarian law, is nonetheless absolutely prohibited and warrants investigation."

-HRW excerpt from findings, link below:

 

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/recent/MDE150892002!Open - Amnesty International>>>

 

 

These human rights groups seem to have NO problem with Palestinians keeping weaponry in UN-run institutions (which they do). They seem to have a VERY hard time calling homicide bombings "terrorism". More left-wing bilge.

 

 

<<<http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/ - Human Rights Watch investigation of Jenin>>>

 

 

Read it. Hilarious report, honestly. They managed to avoid mentioning that many of the buildings were booby-trapped by terrorists (terrorists themselves have stated this in several places). They failed to mention that MANY terrorists were harbored there, that only a small area of Jenin was damaged at all, and that, sadly, crossfire does kill people in places of military occupation.

 

 

<<<http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-05.htm#P234_38516 - Highlights the deaths and casualties. States that there were 52 deaths, 22 confirmed civilians, whilst others were suspected of being part of terror groups. Also includes information of how some were killed.>>>

 

 

Shall we, again, mention how many Palestinians CLAIMED were killed and that the press BOUGHT? Palestine claimed THOUSANDS of dead. THOUSANDS.

 

And, it is ALSO known that they were attempting to move bodies from elsewhere and to place them IN Jenin so that the U.N envoy that was supposed to go there would see them---even though their deaths had nothing to do with the incident in Jenin.

 

The terrorists started a WAR. It is IMPOSSIBLE---completely impossible, to avoid innocent casualties---especially when the terrorists don't wear uniforms (violation of the Geneva Conventions, mind you) and hide amongst the populace.

 

 

<<<"At least four persons were killed by the IDF because they were outside during curfews or walked in areas declared "closed" by the Israeli army. Such use of lethal force to enforce curfews or "closed" areas is a widespread practice by the IDF.>>>

 

 

And WELL it should be. It's not like the soldiers said "Well, you're a minute late. We'll kill you now". I will GUARANTEE that all of these people were given repeated warnings to return home.

 

The IDF was protecting itself by instituting a curfew. And those that violated it, well, too bad for them.

 

 

<<<The use of lethal force against civilians who do not abide by curfews or are found in "closed" areas is unjustified, and a violation of the international humanitarian law provisions prohibiting the targeting of civilians.>>>

 

 

Again, why aren't the Palestinians getting raked over the coals by these groups again?

 

 

<<<International humanitarian law requires that the IDF use less lethal means to enforce its curfews and "closed" areas.">>>

 

 

<<<And THIS is the problem many of us have. "I condemn the bombers, BUT..."

 

There is NO "but" here. What those sub-human monkeys did is flat-out wrong. Israel did nothing to "deserve" this.

 

 

The point I've been making here and the one you fail to understand is that there would be no 'but' on both sides if Israel were not enforcing this occupation.>>>

 

 

There STILL is NO justification for the actions of the monkeys, much as you would like to attempt to make one. What they did was WRONG. Plain and simple. No sugar-coating it.

 

 

<<<The military occupation is flat out WRONG. The actions of the Israeli army are flat out WRONG.>>>

 

 

No, they are not. Israel has been attacked repeatedly for about 18 months. They FINALLY decided to do something about it.

 

If Israel was not attacked, they wouldn't have entered places like Jenin.

 

 

<<<Also, saying that Israel did nothing to deserve this is in great contradiction to your support of Israeli military incursions, the occupation, and thus implying that Palestinian civilians deserve to die for terrorist actions committed by a minority.>>>

 

 

Since the terrorists hide out amongst the civilians---and the Israelis are diligent about not intentionally killing innocents---then the death of Palestinian civilians are the fault of the TERRORISTS. THEY are the ones hiding amongst them---using them as shields.

 

 

<<<These innocent civilians on both sides did nothing to deserve suicide bombings, or be oppressed by a military occupation.>>>

 

 

Except that the Israeli innocent civilians have not ever walked into a Palestinian club and blown themselves up, last time I checked.

 

There is no moral equivalency here.

 

 

<<<Firstly, there are no Palestinian 'settlements'. Settlements are in reference to those illegally built on Palestinian land, by the Israeli government. >>>

 

 

There is no Palestinian land. You could argue they built on Jordanian land, I suppose. And what IS this so-called Palestinian land? The West Bank? The Palestinians didn't even WANT the West Bank until Israel took it from Jordan.

 

 

<<<And no, the figures weren't to show that Israel is THE bad guy, but to show that the Israeli army too is a BAD GUY, much like the Palestinian terrorists.>>>

 

 

Wrong. It shows that the Israelis have dealt with evil. To use another example, Japan's sneak attack on Pearl Harbor killed a lot of Americans.

 

Before the war was over, we killed FAR more Japanese than they killed Americans.

 

So, were we ALSO bad guys for attacking a country that attacked us first?

 

No, we weren't.

 

 

<<<It does show moral equivalence, one which you refuse to accept in the face of the facts.>>>

 

 

There is NO moral equivalence.

 

Israel does not target civilians. Palestine DOES.

 

 

<<<Iraqis/Allies - This has nothing to do with it, if you want to bring up Iraq, then at least acknowledge the weekly bombings by America which have resulted in thousands of innocent Iraqi children dying>>>

 

 

"Thousands of innocent Iraqi children dying"---amazing---even Hussein wouldn't attempt to say a lie as that with a straight face.

 

 

<<<, if you can justify this as retaliation, or Israel's act as retaliation, then the suicide bombings too are justifiable to you. But it's not justifiable, we all agree that the deaths of innocents are wrong, and the deaths of innocents are a regular occurrence for innocent Palestinians and innocent Israeli's alike.>>>

 

 

EXCEPT that Palestinians bring it upon themselves and INTENTIONALLY kill Israeli civilians. Their GOAL is to kill civilians.

 

The IDF'S goal is not to kill Palestinian civilians.

 

 

<<<This whole myth of 'REMARKABLE restraint'. The only reason Israel does not simply 'kill' the Middle East is because they'd be faced with worldwide condemnation, and even MORE justified criticism of Israel, which they can't simply lay claim to being anti-Semitic.>>>

 

 

No country in the Middle East can possibly beat Israel militarily---and we would support them tremendously should a war break out.

 

So, what would Israel lose? The world would boycott them? As we have seen, the world is FAR more driven by money than anything else. They'd trade with Israel because it's the only country over there WITH money.

 

Would they ATTACK? Good lord, continental Europe---in addition to being inept militarily---HATES the idea of military action. They'd NEVER do it.

 

So, Israel would be where they are right now. The world, outside of the U.S and, maybe, Britain, disapproving of them and the Arabs hating their guts.

 

Not exactly a bad thing. I am completely for us telling Israel to do whatever is necessary to protect themselves.

 

 

<<<There is condemnation of Israel's action, and condemnation of the Palestinian actions>>>

 

 

WHERE is this condemnation of Palestinian actions? Certainly not in the U.N (which is as good a reason as any for us to leave that useless organization) or in any major "human rights" groups.

 

 

<<<, but criticism of Israel results in the abhorrent use of labelling someone anti-Semitic or disguising the deplorable actions as justified retaliatory measures. The killings of innocents are not justified, as we both agree, therefore Israel's actions against the Palestinians which result in the majority of innocent deaths is not justifiable.>>>

 

 

It absolutely is. Palestinians CAN target Israeli soldiers. They wear uniforms. They can EASILY avoid civilians.

 

But they don't. They target civilians specifically.

 

Israel can't easily target terrorists. Thus, they put themselves in great peril by attempting to apprehend them while killing as few innocents as possible.

 

 

<<<It's the occupation that has extremely furthered the hatred, so much so that these disgusting actions on both sides are seemingly justified. My point is that you always state that Israel's actions are retaliatory, but then all Palestinian suicide bombings would have to be regarded as direct retaliation to Israeli forces, and the occupation.>>>

 

 

Palestine has no claim to the land, hate to tell you. None whatsoever.

 

 

<<<Claiming no moral equivalence, simply shows your denial of the substantial evidence, or your saying that one form of murder is more morally correct than another.>>>

 

 

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Israel isn't TRYING to kill civilians. Some innocents DO die---but it's not the expressed goal of Israel.

 

Palestine targets civilians. Their expressed goal is to kill innocents.

 

<<<So, 1500 Palestinians were killed due to 'collateral damage' as the Israeli government states.

 

Absolutely. Israel does not target civilians---nor has it.

Palestinians DIRECTLY TARGET civilians.

The actions of the good people of Israel and the sub-human monkeys who run Palestine aren't comparable.

 

http://www.web.amnesty.org/web....ocument

--- Amnesty International 2001 Report of Israel and the Occupied Territories.

 

Excerpt below:

"The Intifada

On 29 September Israeli police using excessive force killed five Palestinians and injured more than 200 others at the al-Aqsa Mosque precinct in Jerusalem. The shooting sparked daily demonstrations and riots in Israel and the Occupied Territories which were continuing at the end of the year.>>>

 

 

Shall we mention what the al-Asqa group IS?

 

Why, yes, they're a terrorist group.

 

A little different than entering a Jewish hotel during Passover and blowing people up.

 

 

<<<Israeli security services killed at least 300 and wounded more than 10,000 Palestinians.>>>

 

 

Funny how little play this story got. It's not like the press is fervently pro-Israel.

 

 

<<<The majority of those killed and wounded were demonstrators throwing stones or using slings; at least 100 of those killed were children under 18.>>>

 

 

Again, amazing that even Muslim people attempting to shout about how evil Israel is when they appear on TV NEVER mention this.

 

 

<<<The Israeli police, border police, special patrol force and IDF used excessive lethal force, firing rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition including high-velocity bullets at demonstrators. Some Palestinians were deliberately targeted and extrajudicially executed. The Israeli airforce and the navy used heavy weaponry, including helicopter gunships, tanks and naval vessels, to shell randomly Palestinian areas from where armed Palestinians had opened fire.>>>

 

 

Guess what? You open fire--you GET return fire. No "crime" there whatsoever.

 

 

<<<They also used heavy weaponry to conduct punitive raids against PA facilities.>>>

 

 

PA is behind the bombings---and again, they weren't targeting innocent civilians.

 

 

<<<Armed Palestinians, including members of the tanzimat - Palestinian paramilitary groups linked to Fatah, the predominant group in the PLO - carried out attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians in the Occupied Territories. A number of gunbattles took place between the IDF and Palestinian security services or paramilitary groups. Palestinian armed opposition groups such as Islamic Jihad also placed bombs which killed six Israeli civilians. Israeli settlers were reported to have killed six Palestinian civilians.>>>

 

 

The settlers in the "occupied territories" are all military reservists and are on duty to protect themselves from Palestinians.

 

 

<<<* Eleven-year-old Sami Abu Jazzar was shot dead during a stone-throwing demonstration in Rafah, Gaza Strip, in October by Israeli soldiers who were based in a blockhouse 100 metres away and who were not in danger at the time.

* Hussein 'Abayat, a local leader of the tanzimat, was extrajudicially executed in Beit Sahur in the West Bank by a shell launched from an Israeli helicopter gunship which killed two women standing near his van and injured nine others. An IDF spokesperson admitted that Hussein 'Abayat had been targeted, allegedly because he was going to launch an attack on Gilo settlement.>>>

 

 

Not a good thing. Again, if Israel wasn't getting bombed so often, they might be a little more tolerant.

 

 

<<<* Two Israeli civilians were killed in a bomb attack near Jerusalem's Mahan Yehuda market on 2 November. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack."

 

The Israeli army much like the Palestinian terrorists commit disgusting crimes, and murder innocent civilians. Both should be condemned. There should be no dispute of moral equivalence.>>>

 

 

There absolutely is no moral equivalence, hate to break it to you.

 

 

<<<The Palestinian "military" does not exist. They have bombers who cowardly enter Israel and bomb civilians. Since Palestine has no military---but still wish to undertake militaristic actions, they have to suffer. Israel targets terrorist organizations. The terrorists---who are sub-human little monkeys, mind you---will use civilians to protect themselves.

The deaths of the Palestinian civilians are the fault of the terrorists.

 

 

When did I ever bring up a 'military' in Palestine? About the whole targetting thing, just look at the sufficient evidence. Wishing to take militaristic actions, etc, has no bearing on the deaths of innocent civilians. So, the actions of the Israeli Army are state sanctioned? Does that make the murders of innocents any more morally correct?>>>

 

 

If the deaths of the innocents are not deliberate and intentional---which, again, they usually are not---then, yes, it is morally OK. Israel and Palestine are at war. Let's go ahead and say it. Civilians die in wars. It's a sad thing.

 

 

<<<No, the fact that it is state sanctioned means that the criticism of Israel's policies are warranted. The deaths of Palestinian civilians are the fault of the terrorists? Such inane statements are easily responded to with 'the deaths of Israeli civilians are the fault of the military and government'. It's wrong to state such things, so let's refrain from doing so.>>>

 

 

The terrorists are the ones who hide amongst the populace, refusing to make themselves known.

 

In Israel, you KNOW who is in the IDF.

 

 

<<This is a common statement used by pro-Israeli analysts. The problem is, it's just a statement with biased opinions. Negotiations were still taking place during the 'Intifada'.>>>

 

 

And the MOMENT the "intifada" started, Israel should have said "Well, negotiations are over. Now, prepare to die, Yassir".

 

 

<<<At the time, illegal settlements had doubled, and the occupation had worsened despite the Camp David negotiations with the pathetic offers (see my last post for information).>>>

 

 

Palestine has NO claim for the land. The land was stolen from the Jews by the Romans. It was seized from the Romans by the Arabs.

 

Jews were there first.

 

 

<<<Ariel Sharon's visit to Temple Mount, and the Israeli soldiers surrounding (reported to be a 1000) provoked protests involving stone-throwing, and rioting. However, the Israeli army has stated that no shots were fired by the Palestinian protesters. The response by the Israeli soldiers resulted in five Palestinian deaths and 200 injured (see the above AI report).>>>

 

 

Israel over-reacted to it. What they did there was wrong.

 

Of course, since it's not the modus operandi of the IDF, it's not quite the same as the Palestinians.

 

 

<<<[http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/mitchell.htm] - The Mitchell Report

 

"The [Government of Israel] asserts that the immediate catalyst for the violence was the breakdown of the Camp David negotiations on July 25, 2000 and the "widespread appreciation in the international community of Palestinian responsibility for the impasse." In this view, Palestinian violence was planned by the PA leadership, and was aimed at "provoking and incurring Palestinian casualties as a means of regaining the diplomatic initiative."

 

"In their submissions, the parties traded allegations about the motivation and degree of control exercised by the other. However, we were provided with no persuasive evidence that the Sharon visit was anything other than an internal political act; neither were we provided with persuasive evidence that the PA planned the uprising."

 

"Accordingly, we have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence at the first opportunity; or to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the GOI to respond with lethal force."

 

"The Sharon visit did not cause the "Al-Aqsa Intifada." But it was poorly timed and the provocative effect should have been foreseen; indeed it was foreseen by those who urged that the visit be prohibited. More significant were the events that followed: the decision of the Israeli police on September 29 to use lethal means against the Palestinian demonstrators; and the subsequent failure, as noted above, of either party to exercise restraint."

 

The reports attempt at seeming even-handed, and placing blame on both sides is understandable. Israeli provocation and violence fueled the uprisings spread, and therefore accepting the claim that Arafat and the PA started it, shows no reasoning.

 

Quote  

<<<Hamas, and the other Palestinian terror groups hate Arafat, it's well known. Now, the constant assumption that Arafat and his political regime order such attacks, and that it is he who persists with the violence is just plain wrong.>>>

I don't suppose him calling bombers "martyrs" all the time is technically giving them support---oh heck, it is giving them support.

Arafat WANTS this. He has wanted this all along.

 

 

<<<Arafat has condemned the bombings>>>

 

 

We have to BEG him to condemn them in Arabic---and then his wife goes out and praises bombers.

 

 

<<<, and twice within the Palestinian jurisdiction called for a halt in the violence and the suicide bombings.>>>

 

 

And you know what---they stopped for a while. When Arafat has fear put in him, he finds a way to stop the bombing.

 

 

<<<Fine, all politicians have to do this, but Arafat isn't a respected figurehead in Palestine, and he's one who ascertains very little control of the Palestinian people.>>>

 

 

Since Arafat isn't the respected leader, who is going to lead this new Palestine? Why in the world should Israel give them ANY power until we get an actual open election (don't even MENTION the fraud that was the 1996 elections) and some serious overhauling of the PA?

 

 

<<<These terrorist groups are only assisting those within Israel whom oppose peace. These attacks damage the cause of the Palestinians, and Arafat himself, something painfully obvious. If anything, the Palestinian government and Arafat are frowned upon for seemingly being 'traitors' to the Palestinian cause. The numerous peace negotiations have not once guaranteed anything substantial for the Palestinians.>>>

 

The Palestinians have shown no willingness to negotiate. If I were Israel, I wouldn't give them one square inch until the bombings stopped for one full year.

 

 

<<<The Palestinians were those who elicited negotiations in the 70s, the first of it's kind. Israel ALWAYS rejected negotiations. The historical negotiations often cited were those in 93,95, and 97. All were horrible negotiations, all of which focused primarily on the security of the Israeli people whilst offering the Palestinians no terrtitorial continuity, rights over water, borders, agriculture, and failed to withdraw totally, whilst stating nothing on the right to return, another huge issue in the conflict.>>>

 

 

Guess what---unlike most of the world, Israel would be allowing a state to form whose expressed goal is the ELIMINATION OF ISRAEL. There is not a chance in the world I've contemplate giving them total freedom.

 

And, again, where was this hue and cry before 1967?

 

 

<<<Now, how about Israel withdraws from the occupied territories, grants the Palestinians the human and territorial rights which they have been without including security officials, and offices which aren't bombed frequently. And if an attack occurred they [israel] could justifiably retaliate.>>>

 

 

If the attack occurs, we'd have Arafat crying to the world once again and the world dropping to their knees to collectively fellate the man.

 

Not happening.

 

 

<<<Another year of the occupation, is just what Israel has always been doing, stalling and trying not to partake in a viable settlement.>>>

 

 

Consider what Israel is doing like parole. Until you can prove that you live like a civilized person---you don't get out of prison.

 

 

<<<Continuing the occupation only angers the Palestinian people, and forces them to live like crap for another year.>>>

 

 

Let's pretend, for a moment, that the occupation ends.

 

Do you honestly think that the Palestinian people WOULDN'T live like crap regardless? They'd be destitute. They'd have a authoritarian dictatorship that would make them LONG for the days of Israel being there.

 

So, they'd STILL be pissed off---any guesses as to who they'd blame for all of their problems?

 

 

<<<The agreements maintain control over borders, water, agriculture, security, and the 22% of Historical Palestine asked for, is decreased yet further.>>>

Again, where were these complaints pre-1967, when fellow Muslims held the hand?

 

 

<<<Where were the complaints? EVERYWHERE! The refugee problem, and constant land evictions from 1947 onwards were opposed by international law, and were illegal. The Palestinians didn't have means to contest such actions, and thus the innumerable UN resolutions passed at the time stating the right to return, and the end of settlement buildings, and denial of self-determination for the Palestinians, none were adhered to.>>>

 

 

You do realize that up until the 1960's, Palestinians WERE the Jews, right? As recently as under Kennedy, whenever people were discussing the Palestinians, they weren't discussing Muslims or Arabs.

 

 

<<<1967 brought upon the Military Occupation, and that is what is now opposed, and this is what oppresses the Palestinian population.>>>

 

 

Actually, most of the Arab World wasn't thrilled with Jordan's land grab that ended in 1967---but they didn't CARE about places like Jerusalem until Israel gained it.

 

 

<<<Gaza and the West Bank were territories yet to be invaded by Israel.>>>

 

 

The PLO's initial charter doesn't even MENTION the West Bank. There isn't even a word for that land in Arabic. The West Bank only became desirable when Israel liberated it from Jordan.

 

 

<<<Egyptian and Jordanian forces used them as areas in which to retreat so they could go back to their own borders. In 1967, Egyptian air forces were located on the Egyptian border outside of Gaza, whilst Jordanian forces were located on the Jordanian border outside of the West Bank. Forces were there regularly in case of an eventual Israeli invasion as after the 1956 war, plans by Israel to capture the Egyptian Sinai were leaked.

 

An American spy ship 'Liberty' was able to make all Egyptian radars malfunction and break down, meaning Israeli forces were able to strike, leading to the destruction of the Egyptian air planes. Jordanian forces were called upon but they had no air forces, as were Syrian forces. The Golan Heights in Syria was captured by Israel. Israeli forces also attacked the Jordanian forces by invading. The Israeli forces eventually retreated back into the West Bank and Gaza and began the Military Occupation. UN Resolution 242 orders the Withdrawal as does 338, but Israel refused, and still do.>>>

 

 

And who would get the land? There was never an Arab Palestinian state in the West Bank. Everything else is spoils of war.

 

 

<<<Israel was attacked in the 1960's. They took over the land when they won. They were prepared to turn almost all of it over to Arafat and his band of sub-human monkeys in Oslo, but Yassir (in a REAL shocker) failed to live up to his end of the bargain.

And, again, if Israel's occupation is "illegal", let Egypt and Jordan do the griping, since they had the land before Israel.

As I spoke of above, the agreements have been worthless. Nine years on, and the Oslo Agreement has maintained the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, has led to more land expropriation, and settlement building;>>>

If Arafat can't abide by the Accords, he doesn't get the benefits.

 

 

<<<Actually settlement building doubled, and Israel just tightened its grip on the territories contrary to the agreement.>>>

 

 

Israel built settlements in its land. Again, Palestine has no claim whatsoever on the West Bank and didn't even attempt to make one until after 1967.

 

 

<<<resulted in higher unemployment, and poverty for the Palestinians;>>>

 

No, the ineptitude of the economic model that every Muslim state in that region seems to follow results in that.

 

 

<<<What economic model? 60% of Palestinians live under the poverty rate because they have no means of work. The very few allowed to work in Israel, usually males aged 35+ make little money. The constant settlements take Palestinian produce, and exploit slave labourers. There is no right over agriculture. The borders stop import/export which is vital for business. All of this due to the Occupation.>>>

 

 

And, again, let's say the Occupation ends tomorrow. Palestine will become a poor, destitute, useless country like, well, all of the non-Israel countries in that region.

 

 

<<<and finally that life has just gotten worse. The Palestinian Authority is hated because it started the Oslo negotiations, and because it was willing to accept them despite losses for the Palestinian people. In practicality, the Israeli prolonged military occupation is aided by the PA's willingness to adhere to such agreements>>>

What part of the agreement has the PA adhered to? I'm sure the world would LOVE to know that.

 

 

<<<Specifically those in 93,95, and 97. If Palestinians are denied an independent state with basic human rights over water, agriculture, security and work, then there will be no negotiation. It's as simple as that, and rightfully so. In turn, Israel draws criticism for it's refusal to negotiate with something actually worthy and in the interests of the Palestinians as well as the Israeli's>>>

 

 

Israel's only obligation is to Israelis. They don't owe the Palestinians anything in terms of negotiation.

 

 

<<<, and draws criticism for the occupation, and their treatment of Palestinians.>>>

 

 

But, again, the world seems to have so little problem with homicide bombings---if one goes by the U.N's actions this year.

 

 

<<<, and the US support for Israel has proved detrimental to the situation, and in exposing their allegiance to Israel despite its oppression of the Palestinian people.>>>

 

Israel is our only true ally over there and the only free country. If the rest of the monkeys in that region don't like it, then screw them.

If Kuwait has the audacity to be anti-U.S after we saved their butts in 1991, then let them die the next time they're invaded.

If Arabia continues to support Wahhabism, then we should pull support from them and let the Saud family fall.

If Egypt continues its anti-Israel policy, we should pull all support from them and let them fall.

And, it goes without saying, we should stop sending Palestine money immediately.

Let the region collapse economically.

 

 

<<<The powerful Jewish lobby in America has greatly influenced the government and society, which has led to a tighter allegiance between the two. The billions in aid ($93 billion so far) has helped to fund the Israeli occupation, all from the US taxpayer.>>>

 

 

Egypt gets a lot of money. Arabia gets a lot of money. Palestine gets a lot of money. Let's not pretend that we only financially support Israel here.

 

 

<<<Egypt along with Jordan recognise Israel.>>>

 

 

I seem to remember watching a statement from the Jordanian prince or something recently where he refused to utter the word "Israel" a single time. I guess that's recognition.

 

 

<<<The recent Saudi peace plan, states that all Arab states recognise Israel's right to exist, and its independence as long as the Occupation is ended with full withdrawal.>>>

 

 

And the recent Saudi Peace plan is a joke and Sharon would be wise to throw it on the floor and urinate on it.

 

 

<<<Letting the region collapse economically would hurt the Western market greatly, simply because of the vast amounts of oil exported.>>>

 

 

What will they do? Boycott us? We'll simply use Russia, South America---maybe even get off our butts and drill in Alaska---and bypass them entirely. We don't NEED their oil as much as they need us to buy it.

 

Take away oil and the exports from the Middle East are about as big as Greenland's.

 

 

<<<Quite simply America's support for Israel was simply due to it's military power, and the fact that it is the strongest country in the region.>>>

 

 

It's also free, which does help.

 

 

<<<The blatant bias and support for Israel by the most powerful country in the world, has led to uproarious disapproval across the world.>>>

 

 

If they wish to support murderous dictators to spite us, they can do so. We know our allies and we support our allies.

 

 

<<<If America really wishes there to be peace in the region, they will have to condemn the Israeli government by decreasing the aid given, or halting it.>>>

 

 

Screw that. Israel is the only ally we have over there and, again, they're the ONLY free country in that hellhole.

 

 

<<<Palestine didn't own the land regardless. It was British before that. They've shown no ability to live as a civilized society, so why should anybody give them any power?

 

 

Now you're just re-writing history. Palestinians have inhabited the land of Palestine (referred to as Historical Palestine) for thousands of years. If the creation of Israel is attributed to a 2000 year historical claim, then the Palestinians too have stake to the land. Palestinians owned and inhabited the land. Palestine was a home to Muslims, Christians, and Jews who lived peacefully with each other.

 

In 1914 Britain guaranteed all under the Ottoman Empire recognised independent states if theyw ere to revolt against the rulers. Palestine was guaranteed a state of independence by 1948 or before. Jewish immigration to Palestine rose at the time, and they were accepted into the community.

 

However, in 1917 the Balfour Declaration showed sympathy towards the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine, yet did not officially call for it to be done. The end of the war in 1918 granted Britain and France control of the areas formally under the Ottoman Empires. All were still guaranteed independence. In 1919 however, Lord Balfour (quote available in my last post) stated his approval of the Zionist dream in establishing a Jewish state in Palestine at the expense of 700,000 Arabs who inhabited the land.

 

With Palestine under the British mandate, 20% of Palestine was owned by the Palestinian public, while the other 80% was regarded public meaning the legal inhabitants had a stake to it. The assumption that the creation of Israel was established fairly with Jews purchasing land is not true. Firstly the 20% of Palestinian land owned by Palestinians included homes, and land in which to farm and produce, never would they be sold. Secondly, the public land could not be bought. However, the few who immigrated at the time would simply approach the authority and ask for places in which to live; the government would in actuality sell it to them for practically peanuts, whilst they'd still be of public property. In the 20s, the rise in Jewish immigration caused riots between the Arab and Jewish communities, as Palestinians believed that the promise of an independent state would not be fulfilled.

During this time, Zionist forces involved themselves in major terrorist actions.

 

In 1939, the beginning of WW2 and the rise of Hitler, and Jewish persecution prompted immigration. Many were denied entry into other countries including America which denied 20,000. They fled to Palestine. By 1946, worldwide opinion supported the creation of Jewish state due to the Holocaust, understandably. Independence was given to all states except for Palestine. In 1947, Plan Dalet was undertaken to ensure an Israeli state, as Palestinian villages were illegally invaded, and occupied by Zionist forces resulting in the evictions of many, and hundreds of deaths. The UN attempted a partition plan but due to the dissolution of the League of Nations, they had no power in which to assign the territory to a minority. The future government of the state was to be decided by those in the jurisdiction, but with the constant evictions, by 1948 Israel proclaimed itself the Jewish state leaving only 17% of Palestinian population that inhabited the land, and were made refugees. The British Mandate legally guaranteed a Palestinian state for all Palestinians and future immigrants.>>>

 

 

Again, when they were referring to "Palestinians" in those days, they were referring to the Jews.

 

 

<<<European anti-Semitism understandably warranted pleas for a Jewish homeland, but the fact that this European anti-Semitism resulted in a Jewish homeland being created at the expense of the Palestinian people, whom had done nothing wrong, was wrong. Palestinians were denied their right to self-determination and still are.>>>

What rights does Palestine have to the land? They have none.

And, again, where was this hue and cry amongst the Palestinian people when Israel DIDN'T own the land?

I'll give them that they had good timing to wait to gripe until a country gained the land that wouldn't slaughter them at the drop of a hat.

 

 

There are so many things absolutely wrong with that. If Palestinian people don't have a stake to the land, then Israeli's don't.>>>

 

 

They have a right to be there---namely, they ARE there. They were given the land and they have taken it.

 

 

<<<If we were to change countries worldwide based on 2000 year old claims, many countries would cease to exist including America.>>>

 

 

But, these same claims for "Palestinian" statehood require the same thing---recognition of an old claim.

 

 

<<<Where was the cry amongst Palestinians when Israel didn't own the land. What the hell are you talking about? The creation of a Jewish state at the complete and utter disgregard of the Palestinian people, and Palestine itself resulted in condemnation and countless riots in the early 20th century, but the Zionist forces such as the Haganah, Irgun etc, were involved in numerous operations under 'Plan Dalet' to expel Palestinians directly, or with intimidation, and thus invade and occupy towns and villages illegally by force, massacring Palestinians, and destroying homes.>>>

 

 

I was referring more towards places like the West Bank. The PLO has always wanted to wipe out Israel.

 

 

<<<European anti-Semitism doesn't justify the creation of another state at the expense of an entire population. The Palestinian rights to that of self-determination were denied, and still are.>>>

 

 

Israel's right to self-preservation exceeds Palestinian right to "self-determination".

 

 

<<<A military was built for Israel, as were airways. These were used as tools to oppress the Palestinian people. Palestinian suicide bombing is wrong. The military occupation is wrong.

Nope, it's not wrong. Occupations occur all over the place and many are for very just and fair reasons. Heck, Iraq's airways are "occupied" by the Allies to protect the Kurds from Hussein.

 

 

Iraqi airways being occupied mean absolutely nothing; it's a totally different thing, and an idiotic comparison to make. Israel is ILLEGALLY occupying Palestinian land by placing thousands of illegal soldiers at the borders, and creating dozens of ILLEGAL settlements whilst ILLEGALLY denying Palestinians the most primitive rights all through brutal and forceful measures. That's illegal, that's wrong, and there are no just and fair reasons for this, other than amassing illegal profits or simply wanting to oppress the Palestinian people.>>>

 

 

There are fair reasons for it. Israel, rightly, believes that should they give Palestine its own state, they will STILL be attacked---the biggest difference being that Palestinians might be able to more easily get better weaponry.

 

 

<<<A Palestinian state must be created, and one that gives Palestinians freedom, and the basic human rights all people deserve. If a state were created, attacks continued, and the authorities didn't deal with them, then Israel would be justified in an incursion or form of 'retaliation' complete with backing from the international community.

They wouldn't get the support because continental Europe is horribly anti-Semitic (and becoming worse). They'd then have ANOTHER country who hates them for being Jewish AND the only country over there with an economy that actually works. This is a total no-win situation for Israel.

What does Israel gain by giving Palestine anything? Do you think the attacks would stop? There's no chance of that. Arafat and his band of monkeys want Israel to cease to exist. Nothing less.

 

 

<<<European criticism of Israel is justified because of the illegal occupation, you're simply unable to accept that instead dismissing it as flagrant anti-Semitism.>>>

 

 

When you have gov't officials spouting off anti-Semitic remarks; when you have synagogues in Europe getting burned, etc.---saying that anti-Semitism is on the rise in a region WELL-KNOWN for being anti-Semitic is not a stretch.

 

 

<<<Israel is built on the foundations that it hates the Arabs due to its creation, and by maintaining the occupation they just demonstrate it even more. The Israeli economy whilst relying on the occupation and slave labourers is in a great down-period.>>>

 

 

They do not rely on slave laborers. Again, even the most ardent pro-Palestinian people don't attempt to make such a claim.

 

 

<<<Let me explain why a Palestinian state needs to be created. A Palestinian state needs to be created to give the Palestinians their basic rights to freedom. A viable Palestinian state in which Palestinians can live peacefully free from the occupation, with control over their water, their agriculture, and their futures must be guaranteed. In turn, with no Occupation, meaning there is no source of hatred, and violence, security is given to both sides.>>>

 

 

They will hate Israel REGARDLESS. Israel is not Muslim---and God knows Muslim-run countries have never had a good track record of living peacefully with non-Muslim countries.

 

 

<<<Your views on the European community are wrong, the media itself is still somewhat pro-Israel, but the fact is that they haven't totally forgotten about the Occupation, the single source of hatred, violence, oppression, and eventually innocent deaths on both sides. If attacks continue then there would be no 'but', there would be no reasoning, therefore Israel who'd be looked upon in a much more favorable light, would be given support by the international community, and quite simply would sympathise with them. >>>

 

 

The int'l community would NOT sympathize with them because there are enough bleeding hearts who will buy whatever bilge Arafat says.

 

Again, they BELIEVED Palestine when they claimed that thousands were killed in Jenin. They never even thought to question it.

                     -=Mike

[Guest J*ingus]

Damn mike, do a bit of editing, the posts you've made in this thread are the longest I've ever seen.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Yet Arafat gets a Nobel Peace Prize in spite of ALL of his murderous activities. Ah, the consistency of the pro-Palestine lobby.

Yet Yitzhak Rabin, too, a former army general who was involved in murdering Palestinians gets a peace prize.>>>

 

I love this constant refrain that, somehow, the Palestinians have never done anything to bring any suffering upon themselves.

Let's just use now as an example. How long had the intifada been going on until Israel FINALLY sent tanks into the occupied territory? How many bombings had Israel suffered before they retaliated?

It's like saying Japan was treated unfairly because we attacked them after they bombed us.

There is NO moral equivalence here. If Palestinians didn't bomb Israel, Israel wouldn't mess with them whatsoever.

 

 

I think I'll emphasize 'OCCUPATION' so you can get it through your head. The OCCUPATION, the illegal one placed upon the Palestinians, which oppresses them brutally and violently, takes their land, and kills innocents is wrong.>>>

 

 

And I'll try and beat this into your head---PALESTINIAN MONKEYS TARGET CIVILIANS.

 

That is the ULTIMATE act of cowardice.

 

 

<<<This fuels protests, and this wrongly so fuels the suicide bombings.>>>

 

 

Let's be honest. What fuels suicide bombings? The insane belief that they'll go to heaven and be able to bed numerous maidens. That's why those mind-numbed puddles of drool do it.

 

 

<<<If Israel are really interested in a Palestinian state>>>

 

 

They're not. Nor should they be.

 

 

<<<, the security of it's own people, and an end to the violence, they must look at the illegal OCCUPATION it has maintained, and they must end it. >>>

 

 

And you just assume that the violence would end. This is naivete extraordinaire.

 

 

<<<Simple question: If the intifada was not going on, would Israel be messing with Arafat and his collection of sub-human thugs? No, they have other things to worry about---liking maintaining a free country and the like.

 

Israel would be maintaining the brutal military occupation which oppresses the Palestinian people, denying basic rights, instigating hatred, and diminishing the security for innocents on both sides.>>>

 

Palestinians have more rights in Israel than they'd have in any other country in that area.

 

 

Palestinians have no rights under the OCCUPATION. I know Palestinians living in Egypt, and they live peacefully with rights, and they work, make money, go out freely, and enjoy life.>>>

 

 

And, unless there have been a wave of suicide bombers, Israel doesn't CARE enough about Palestinians to oppress them.

 

 

<<<The second (recent) Intifada was sparked by Ariel Sharon whilst on a visit to 'Temple Mount', a place of worship for both Jews and Muslims. On Friday, the Muslim day of prayer, Israeli soldiers surrounded the site, whilst Sharon toured inside, prohibiting anyone wishing to pray. Considering this was the Muslim day of prayer, stones were thrown, shots were fired, and Palestinians were killed on the day.>>>

 

After the Church of the Nativity, expecting me to feel ANY sympathy for anybody pissing on the Palestinians' desire to practice their faith is laughable.

 

Heck, I wouldn't have minded if Sharon took a copy of the Koran and wiped his BUTT with it.  

 

 

Don't forget about the Christian community in Palestine. This event was before the Church of the Nativity, and you're just making stupid generalised insults.>>>

 

 

Doesn't matter. I STILL have no respect for them. And, should Palestine get a state, we might want to go ahead and take the dental records of all of the non-Muslims in that country, so we can identify the bodies after they kill them.

 

 

<<<The actions of a few Palestinians means that the entire Muslim community does not deserve respect?>>>

 

 

Actually, the fact that so few Muslims will condemn the bombings gives me little reason to respect the religion of Islam as one of "peace".

 

 

<<<Surely the actions of some Israeli's, and the army means that the Jewish community deserves no respect? Both are wrong. Actions by the minority don't represent a whole peoples.>>>

 

 

Except that finding Muslims who fit every negative stereotype of them isn't exactly a challenge.

 

 

<<<The Israeli citizens who elected him were understandably looking for security, but what must be understood is that maintaining the occupation will never establish security in Israel.>>>

 

But appeasing Arafat WILL?

Appeasing the Palestinian people will.>>>

 

And the lessons of history are still not learned.

 

 

<<<Lessons of history? You mean the constant oppression of Palestinians by Israel since it's birth, killing innocents, and thus instigating more violence, rendering the OCCUPATION useless.>>>

 

 

No, that appeasing tyrants only leads to more suffering for all involved.

 

 

<<<The Israeli government knows that it won't work, but they don't do a damn thing about it.>>>

 

 

The Israeli government's only concern is itself---and well it should be.

 

 

<<<And if attacks continued, Israel would be justified in a possible retaliation complete with international backing.>>>

 

They're justified right now. And if the world doesn't support them, screw the world.

 

 

Then I guess suicide bombings are just as justified, they both kill innocents.>>>

 

 

Military incursions don't specifically target innocents---so, no, they're not.

 

 

<<<There have been numerous atrocities, with possibly the Sabra & Shatilla massacre being that often brought up. 3000 Palestinian and Lebanese innocents were killed. Proven were rapes, mutilations, general torture, and other sickening acts. Ariel Sharon is held accountable.>>>

 

Again, you act as if Palestinians and Libyans were just innocently sitting around when this happened.[/quotes]

 

Firstly, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that LIBYANS come from LIBYA, wilst LEBANESE people from LEBANON. The Sabra & Shatilla Massacre - Sabra & Shatilla refugee camps in Lebanon. Ariel Sharon ordered the Israeli army to surround the camps whilst the Phalange (Extremist Lebanese Christians who despise Palestinians) were hired to 'maintain' the camp. For two days, three thousand innocents were brutally massacred.

 

Honestly, if you're going to make such statements at least try and learn more about the situation, the history etc.

 

<<<The settlement buildings and land expropriation is not stopping attacks on Israeli civilians.

Again, appeasing the sub-human monkeys WILL?

Again, appeasing the Palestinian people will.>>>

That, again, is a total pipe dream.

<<<In fact, I think appeasing them sounds too extreme. It's giving Palestinians the basic rights guaranteed to all people, but the ones that they've been denied. >>>

 

Denying them the rights guaranteed to all people?

I'm sure Christians and Jews in Muslim-led countries would love to hear about the rights they have---but they're too busy getting slaughtered by the Church.

 

 

In no way am I dismissing these people suffering, or those oppressed like the Kurds etc, but we're talking about the Palestinian situation, this has no effect on the situation or Israeli policy, bringing these wrongs up in order to justify another wrong is wrong.>>>

 

 

No, it's simply stating that creating ANOTHER place where widespread wrong-doing and support of terrorism can exist is not a good thing for the world.

 

 

<<<As to why those being oppressed worldwide aren't getting enough international coverage, I'd like to know too.

 

 

Yet again, you've totally ignored the fact that the occupation exists, and it is this occupation that is at the heart of all the problems.>>>

You ignore that the attacks would occur regardless. The PLO wants Israel TO NOT EXIST.

 

 

Then surely the Israeli government doesn't want the Palestinians to exist.>>>

 

 

However, if they were not attacked, they'd not attack themselves.

 

 

<<<These comments are useless. The OCCUPATION instigates the attacks, but if they were to continue upon creation of a Palestinian state, then Israel would retaliate under justifiable means.>>>

 

 

No, because people like you would make some other claims that somehow Israel brought this upon themselves.

 

 

<<<No, it's called Israel is fighting for their survival and unfortunately for Palestine, Israel has a competent military.

 

You've kind of dispelled your own point. The Israeli military along with it's strong alliance with the US government means it would crush the entire Middle East quite easily. Israel could just as easily crush the Palestinian population, but in doing so the government would equate to genocidal evil bastards, who would be condemned worldwide. Instead, they opt to enforce the military occupation, denying Palestinians their rights to self-determination and equality, whilst gradually building more settlements, and generating more profits.>>>

 

So, the fact that Israel CAN wipe out the Palestinians with ease---but don't do so---makes them bad guys?

 

Israel is fighting to stop the bombings. Plain and simple. Bombings stop and Israel ceases to care about what the little sub-human monkeys who run Palestine do.

 

 

THEY WOULD NEVER WIPE OUT THE PALESTINIANS BECAUSE THEN THEY WOULD GET WORLDWIDE CONDEMNATION.>>>

 

 

They have that now.

 

 

<<<EVEN AMERICA WOULD REVOLT AGAINST THIS.>>>

 

 

I'd be willing to bet that we would not.

 

 

<<<America could wipe out Iraq with ease, why don't they do that? They still bomb them every week, but why not just wipe them out, right?>>>

 

 

Bomb them every week? Interesting. I've not seen much on this.

 

Why don't we wipe out Iraq? Because it just creates additional headaches. We'd have to end up taking them as a colony and we just don't want colonies.

 

 

<<<right? Yeah, and then maybe they can like wipe out all the EVIL Arabs, right? right?>>>

 

 

Too many headaches involved for us to even bother with it. However, if the Muslim world is going to bitch and moan that they want our support, then they'd best learn to support as well---rather than condemn us in their press incessantly.

 

Yes, we give money to Israel---we also give money to quite a few Muslim states.

 

 

<<<They are 'bad guys' because they kill innocent people, and deny Palestinians basic rights, and maintain the OCCUPATION. Even if bombings stop, OCCUPATION continues.>>>

 

 

And if occupation stops, bombings continue.

 

 

<<<There is a distinction to be made. Israel does not represent the entire Jewish race, but people often mis-interpret criticism of Israel, as anti-Jewish sentiment. Far from it, there are many many Jewish people who are opposed to Israeli actions, and who support a Palestinian state.>>>

 

And they aren't living in constant terror of people walking into malls and clubs and blowing them to bits.  

 

Even some Israeli civilians, those whom are represented by the Israeli government, are against the occupation, and yet they live in fear of bombings. That's the point, they realise that what the Palestinians are being subjected to is cause for more hatred, and more death. My other point was that, unfortunately there are reports of attacks on Jews worldwide, and ones often exploited. The actions of the Israeli government don't represent the Jewish people, but unfortunately for the Israeli civilians, they do have a role in supposedly representing the people. Much like the corrupt Palestinian Authroity, this is a bad thing for both peoples. But, this has more to do with political ideologies (socialism, anarchism, etc.).>>>

 

I don't doubt that some Israelis oppose the occupation.

As I said, idiots reside everywhere.

 

 

It's a shame you're one of them - HA! (cue: boos and hisses). Nope, only kidding, my good friend. Israeli's oppose the occupation because they understand that another persons suffering doesn't uphold peace.>>>

 

 

And how many of these Israelis had loved ones killed by the cowards?

 

 

<<<So what? Israel is being attacked. They HAVE to fight back. They have to make terrorism so damaging to the terrorist that they'd NEVER wish to pursue that tactic.

 

 

So, Palestinians have to fight back against the Occupation. It's all WRONG! WRONG! It only results in innocent deaths.>>>

 

 

Except that the bombings are initiating the military action.

 

 

<<<Because Israel IS NOT INITIATING THEM.

That is a HUGE difference.

If they were not bombed, they'd not be in the occupied territory. They have better things to do.

Palestine STARTS these conflicts because they know that the world will end up fellating Arafat as they always tend to do.

 

 

The OCCUPATION has been around for 35 years, it is illegal, and unwarranted. This initiates violence.>>>

 

 

The Occupation followed the illegal land grab of Jordan in 1948---so it's not like the land was all free and easy before 1967.

 

 

<<<I heard of recent comments made by Republican Dick Armey on MSNBC's 'Hardball' show, in which he advocated the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. There have been several such columns sharing the view within mainstream newspapers such as the Washington Post and several op-ed pieces in New York Times, etc. The comment by Armey has yet to receive a media outcry, and all this can be based upon the Israeli propaganda within America.>>>

 

No, it's based on our observing that Palestine refuses to live peacefully. Given a choice between Israeli existence and Palestinians existence, I will choose Israel without blinking.

 

 

<<<The Palestinians have acknowledged Israel's right to exist. But the OCCUPATION must end. Dick Armey's comments were stupid, and promote ethnic hatred.>>>

 

 

Has the PLO removed that whole "elimination of Israel" clause out of their charter? Last time I heard anything on it, the answer was no.

 

 

<<<Except that Israeli civilians don't tend to strap bombs to their chest, walk into crowded Palestinian gatherings and blow themselves up.

 

Oh, and they don't specifically target children.

 

Don't think Israelis held priests hostage at the Church of the Nativity anytime recently.

 

No, instead, soldiers are ordered to root out 'terrorists' resulting in the deaths of innocent civilians, and more destruction to the livelihoods of the Palestinians.>>>

 

And the deaths of innocents and destruction of livelihoods (laughable, considering how miserable the economies of the Muslim states are) are the fault of the terrorists. They launch attacks and then hide amongst the civilians---the ultimate act of cowardice.

 

 

Muslim states this, Muslim states that. Stick to the Palestine/Israel situation. Palestine is made up of all faiths.>>>

 

 

Let's be honest about who is behind the attacks, shall we? You don't see many Christians or Palestinian Jews doing it, do you?

 

 

<<<Most of the Middle Eastern countries hold Muslims, and Christians.>>>

 

 

They actually tend to kill Christians left and right.

 

 

<<<Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are Muslim states but still contain Christians, and Jews. I don't doubt there is discrimination, but it has no bearing on the Palestine situation.>>>

 

 

God knows the Christians and Jews in those countries would KILL for the rights Palestinians have in Israel.

 

 

<<<Which means that it's believability is low. Books with "a few errors" tend to have dramatically more the more you examine it.

 

 

'The Holocaust Industry' take a chance to read it. Errors I speak of were ones in relation to dates.

 

Quote  

<<<Anyone who doesn't accept this, whether Jew or Arab or anyone else, is disqualified. The 'Basic Law' of Israel suggests there is no equality between Jew and Arab, or Jew and...anyone else, for that matter. >>>

 

No, it states that Israel is a Jewish state. They enter the government knowing that and Israel will not allow them to attempt to kill the state from within.

 

 

Nope, if you actually read the laws passed in 92, gone is the guarantee of equality for anyone despite race, religion, nationality etc.>>>

 

 

And you can have a Jewish state that gives equality to all people. The state is pre-dominantly Jewish and states so.

 

 

<<<Another law - 'The Law of Return' states that every Jew has the right to immigrate and be granted instant citizenship to Israel, this means citizenship can also be granted to their marital partners, children and grandchildren. Yet, any other person must be born within Israel, and thus their parents must have Israeli citizenship. This clearly discriminates against the millions of Palestinians who have been refused entry back into their country, and homeland.>>>

 

Every country has the right to determine the rights of eligibility to be citizens.

I assume the Muslim states have more open citizenship requirements?

 

 

Over four million Palestinian refugees have been made now.>>>

 

 

Do you know what those Palestinian "refugees" view their homeland as being?

 

Hint: Not the West Bank. Not the Gaza Strip. They want Israel---the way it was created in 1948. That is their "homeland". Nothing else will suffice.

 

 

<<<The common myth is that expulsion of Jews in Arab states during the time of Israel's creation justify the expulsion of Palestinians from their homeland. That is wrong. Some Jews were discriminated against in the neigbouring states, but Jews lived peacefully in such states. The possibility of a creation of a Jewish state meant many Oriental Jews immigrated, whilst in some cases dissention was exploited. For example, the Iraqi Jewish population was once bombed to spark off feelings of racial tension. However, Zionist forces planted the bomb in order to intimidate Jews into coming to Israel, so they could expand the territory.

 

Quote  

<<<To add to this, the several worldwide Jewish federations, have great influence over the political status of Israel, and have authority over several key political elements such as land ownership, etc. These federations, being only representative of Jew's means there is more discrimination to the ethnic minorities within Israel. >>>

 

Israel is a Jewish state. To complain that Jews tend to be the focus of the state is like griping that the French are the main concern of the French government.

 

 

Obviously Jews are the focus, they are the majority as I've stated. But Israel claims that all peoples live equally, and given the same rights but that's not true and in direct contradiction with it's Basic Law which states no right to equality.>>>

 

 

And they do a good job of giving equality. There are Muslims and Arabs in the Knesset.

 

 

<<<However, it is a fact that terrorist organisations exist among the Palestinians, and the Palestinian people as a whole have been deceived over several decades into swallowing anti-Semitic Nazi pseudoscience by their own so-called "leaders." It is a fact that mainstream Arab newspapers, usually published by the state governments, regularly print baseless, venomous screeds against Israel as a country and the Jews as a race. It is a fact that Arafat's rigidly-controlled media apparatus broadcasts and publishes viciously anti-Semitic material in a near constant stream of filth. It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of the population in all Middle Eastern states is sharply anti-Israel. Pretending that the niceties of your distinction between Zionism and the Jewish people are appreciated in that region, that when people burn the Star of David and scream "Death to the Jews," they don't really mean it - all this would strike me as comical if I didn't have the sickening feeling that I would've heard you saying the same things in 1938.  

The problem here is, that the Israeli leadership too, has promoted the hatred of the Arabs. The Israeli leaders of the past, Golda Meir, Ben-Gurion, Begin, all have stated horrid things towards the Arabs. Before Israel's creation, the process of evicting Palestinians from land was in full effect under 'Plan Dalet'. Even now, leaders such as Sharon and the assasinated tourism minister I spoke of regard the Palestinians as terrorist villains, and a 'cancer'.>>>

Let's pretend that you see a group of people who will walk into diners and blow people up. You see a group of people who will attempt to smuggle bombs on ambulances. You see a group of people who will put secondary bombs on themselves to kill the rescue workers.

At what point would you lose a lot of respect for them?

 

 

Exact same things Zionist forces did before and after Israel's creation including bus bombs, the bombing of the King David Hotel etc. It's all wrong, but that's just a minority of the people.>>>

 

 

And hasn't happened in many years and, thus, is irrelevant.

 

 

<<<you know, fatmanfoleyfan, I used to think that Israel was the oppressor and were getting a free pass in the conflict.  But with each "suicide bombing," that conviction faded away.  The continued attacks on civilians as well as Yasser's typical antics have turned me completely onto Israel's side.  The biased media coverage has also contributed.  If Arafat would have held up his end of each agreement, and the Palestinians had fought honorably (instead of attacking innocents) I would have agreed with your stance.  However this has not been the case and it does not seem it ever will be... so I must take a pro-Israel position.  

'Fought honorably'? Sustaining the military occupation has led to the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinian people. It's this continued occupation that provides a source for retaliatory measures on both sides, which in turn helps escalate the hatred. We all know the suicide bombings are horrific, and these bombings don't represent the Palestinian people.>>>

 

You see, I hear that---but I'm not buying it. There is no shortage of young men who are willing to do this (and, contrary to what some people would like to think, they don't do it for religious or any other reasons---they do it so they can nail some maidens in the afterlife). There is no shortage of families who support this (Heck, Mrs. Arafat supports it).

 

It may not represent the thoughts of ALL Palestinians---but it represents the thoughts of A LOT of them.

 

 

And I guess there's many Israeli's who believe in the permanent extinction of all things Palestinian.>>>

 

 

Except that Israeli civilians don't do anything to bring about said extinction.

 

 

<<<Hatred exists on both sides, to the point where both are willing to involve themselves in horrific crimes against human life.>>>

 

 

What do Israeli civilians do? Not seen to many atrocities by them.

 

Have seen quite a few by Palestinians.

 

 

<<<The last 18 months have left over 400 Israeli's, and 1500 Palestinians dead. These figures are available from all news outlets worldwide, including the mainstream press in America.

 

I wouldn't exactly call the American press a source of truth and impartiality.  CNN's coverage has a clear pro-Palestine bias.

 

 

Neither would I, it's a source for primarily pro-Israeli bias. CNN is horrible, a lot of their debates consist of just an Israeli spokesman to document his side of the story. Many times, they just enlist the help of US Senators who are the epitome of the stereotypical white racist, but are bribed into support for Israel. Shows such as Q&A however attempt impartiality.>>>

 

 

CNN has a pro-Israeli bias?

 

Words fail me.

 

 

<<<Now, the constant assumption that Arafat and his political regime order such attacks, and that it is he who persists with the violence is just plain wrong.

I don't see him doing anything to stop them.  I don't hear him condemning them.  Ever.  With terrorism, you either support it or you're against it... there is no in-between. Arafat's resounding silence in regard to these attacks is deafening.

 

 

He's condemned the actions, even on Palestinian TV. Problem is, he has no control. It was even shown on the news recently, his statements in Arabic condemning the attacks. >>>

 

 

Do you know WHY he made those statements? Because we basically forced him to do it. He would not have done so willingly.

 

 

<<<A Palestinian state must be created, and one that gives Palestinians freedom, and the basic human rights all people deserve.

 

I wouldn't call control over airways and the right to build a military "basic human rights."

 

 

<<<I never said any the military has anything to do with it, but the airways are basic state rights, and are needed for a viable economy in trade.>>>

 

 

And since Israel has a legitimate concern about being bombed by them, I'd NEVER allow it.

 

 

<<<A Palestinian state would establish security, peace, and equality for both peoples. And if attacks continued, Israel would be justified in a possible retaliation complete with international backing.

 

It absolutely would not.  Israel would not just hand over all the lands to which Palestinians lay claim.  Immediately, Palestinians would claim a lack of equality.  Renegade Palestinians would continue fighting over disputed lands in the same ways they have been for years.  This eliminates peace.  And a Palestinian state would surely build up an army to take back lands it feels it has a right to.  This throws security out the window.

 

 

Hand over? It's a matter of get out of the occupied territories. A Palestinian state would be overlooked to ensure militaristic operations were not planned. The OCCUPATION eliminates peace.>>>

 

 

The "refugees" don't WANT the WEst Bank and the "occupied territories". They want Israel. Nothing less.

 

 

<<<Israel could just as easily crush the Palestinian population, but in doing so the government would equate to genocidal evil bastards, who would be condemned worldwide.

 

The fact that Israel does not crush the Palestinian population should tell you something.

 

 

They don't want to be criticised and condemned even more. Could you imagine the backlash? The whole sympathy card that Israel plays up would be gone.>>>

 

 

What sympathy card? There isn't ANY sympathy for them in most of the world.

 

 

<<<A good comparison is the recent plans to attack Iraq, it's always put on hold, and debated, simply because America does not want to be condemned and criticised even more for inhumane practises.>>>

 

 

1) The suffering of the Iraqi people are due to Hussein's policies. We get the criticism, but it is not our fault.

 

2) We HATE instability---and since we have no clue who'd replace Saddam, it's not something we're all that gung-ho about.

 

 

<<<However, the 'targeted attacks' as labelled by the Israeli government, resulting in the deaths of Palestinian government officials, many of whom are innocent, elicits no stories or outcries.

 

I don't hear any Palestinian government officials condemning the suicide attacks, so I would hardly call them innocent.  

 

 

I don't hear Israeli government officials condemning the military operations, and occupation... oh that's right, they order them.>>>

 

 

After they get bombed, yes.

 

 

<<<The actions of the military are attacks on human life, and are wrong. These IDF troops do these things with guns, tanks, F16s, and weapons purchased with money from the US taxpayer.

 

All war is carried out by humans so there will always be attacks on human life.  IDF troops use traditional weapons of war... they don't strap themselves with bombs and blow up innocent people.

 

 

Israeli army has killed thousands of innocents, and violated countless human rights, and rules of war.>>>

 

 

Since Palestine has no military---just sub-human monkey terrorists, they can claim that ALL deaths are innocent civilians.

 

Doesn't make it the case.

 

 

<<<The Arabs had done nothing wrong to warrant such an action, and all they see is lot's of people coming in and taking their land.

 

As if Jews have had no experience of that.  Allow me to print an e-mail story I received in regards to this conflict:

<<The prime minister of Israel sits down with Arafat at the

beginning of negotiations regarding the resolution of the

conflict. Prime Minister Sharon requests that he be

allowed to begin with a story.

Arafat replies, "Of course."

The prime minister begins his story: "Years before the

Israelites came to the Promised Land and settled here,

Moses led them for 40 years through the desert. The

Israelites began complaining that they were thirsty and,

lo and behold, a miracle occurred and a stream appeared

before them. They drank their fill and then decided to

take advantage of the stream to do some bathing --

including Moses. When Moses came out of the water, he

found that all his clothing was missing.

"'Who took my clothes?' Moses asked those around him.

"'It was the Palestinians,' replied the Israelites.

"Wait a minute," objected Arafat immediately, "there were

no Palestinians during the time of Moses!"

"All right," replied the prime minister. "Now that we've

got that settled, let's begin our negotiations.">>  

 

 

EUROPEAN ANTI-SEMITISM IS NOT JUST CAUSE FOR THE CREATION OF A STATE AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

 

Philistines/Israelites/Canaanites - Who gives a damn in the end, because that story states that if Israel can claim a 2000 year old stake to the land, then others can do so, resulting in the non-existence of many countries including America, Britain, and dozens of Middle Eastern countries, those in Europe... I could go on.>>>

 

 

You could---but you're also killing off your entire premise that the Palestinians have a valid claim to the land as well.

               -=Mike

[Guest]

Well, Mike said it all... as usual. Fatman, read his comments and you will know where I stand also.

 

 

Mike... I guess great minds do think alike.

[Guest fatmanfoleyfan]

http://www.btselem.org - Israeli information centre for human rights in the occupied territories

Two weeks ago, the Israeli Army admitted using human shields, by releasing a statement saying they would prohibit the use of such tactics.>>>

 

From the home page:

"B'TSELEM - The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel."

 

Go ahead and read what it's actually saying---this is a PRO-PALESTINIAN group. No way I believe them.

 

Let's first try and establish the meaning of 'Pro-Palestinian'. This is in reference to being against Israeli policy towards the Palestinians, and believing that the Palestinian people too deserve a state, and human rights. It's a belief that is against the Israeli oppression of Palestinians. You've taken it completely out of context.

 

You have wrongly perceived B'TSELEM to be anti-Israeli.  "The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories" As you can see it has been founded by Israeli's: "group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members". In what way does this dismiss the reliability of the facts? It's an official center in documenting something specific, that being human rights abuses in the Occupied Territories. There are dozens of official centers like this around the world which document the specifics of certain topics. "It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel." This is what the center is based around. It is one founded to make clear human rights abuses in the occupied territories. There is nothing wrong with that, and there is nothing anti-Israeli about it. The information they provide is of great validity.

 

These human rights groups seem to have NO problem with Palestinians keeping weaponry in UN-run institutions (which they do). They seem to have a VERY hard time calling homicide bombings "terrorism". More left-wing bilge.

 

The point is that you believe the IDF does not target innocent civilians. It's not a matter of the Palestinian bombings and terrorist actions which we both acknowledge. These reports are clear in stating that the IDF does not attempt to reduce innocent casualties, far from it. The IDF too kill innocent civilians, knowing full well they are innocent. Both sides kill innocent civilians, not 'mistakenly' or due to 'collateral damage'. Both sides target and kill innocents.

 

Read it. Hilarious report, honestly. They managed to avoid mentioning that many of the buildings were booby-trapped by terrorists (terrorists themselves have stated this in several places). They failed to mention that MANY terrorists were harbored there, that only a small area of Jenin was damaged at all, and that, sadly, crossfire does kill people in places of military occupation.

 

I've read the report. It is entitled 'Jenin: IDF Military Operations'. The report was established to check the extent of the damage in Jenin, the innocent casualties, and human rights abuses on the part of the IDF. There have been reports in relation to Palestinians, in terms of the terrorist attacks.

 

Once again, the point was to clearly make evident the operations of the IDF, and their targetting and killings of innocents. It's a fact that can not be disputed. The actions of the IDF are therefore wrong much like those of the Palestinian suicide bombers.

 

Where did you hear about the area damaged in Jenin, and the MANY terrorists? The destruction of houses, and streets in an attempt to 'root out' terrorism is wrong. The IDF are supposed to carry out door-to-door searches, however homes are bulldozed instead, meaning innocents within the vicinity are at risk of being crushed. And please, I understand totally that the actions of the suicide bombers are disgusting, and collaborators should be found but I'm just attempting to make sure you know that the Israeli Military commits heinous crimes too.

 

Shall we, again, mention how many Palestinians CLAIMED were killed and that the press BOUGHT? Palestine claimed THOUSANDS of dead. THOUSANDS.

And, it is ALSO known that they were attempting to move bodies from elsewhere and to place them IN Jenin so that the U.N envoy that was supposed to go there would see them---even though their deaths had nothing to do with the incident in Jenin.

The terrorists started a WAR. It is IMPOSSIBLE---completely impossible, to avoid innocent casualties---especially when the terrorists don't wear uniforms (violation of the Geneva Conventions, mind you) and hide amongst the populace.

 

There were 52 deaths, 22 confirmed civilians. 22 innocent civilians were killed, and as documented in the report were targeted. This is wrong. This is a violation of International law. I'd be appreciative of where exacty you heard that bodies were being placed in Jenin? The point is that even as a WAR, (I wouldn't call it that, personally) these were not just civilian casualties caught in the crossfire, those dead were targeted, a war crime. The Geneva Convention also states the right of self determination for civilians, something Palestinians are denied.

 

Article 1(4) of Protocol I (additional to the Geneva Conventions) considers self-determination struggles as international armed conflicts situations. The principle of self-determination itself provides that where forcible action has been taken to suppress the right, force may be used in order to counter this and achieve self-determination.

---Arjan El Fassed

 

That's the quote I remember clearly off my head. I found a link to the Geneva Conventions very recently, but I can't find it now. I'll try and post it when I find it.

 

The targeted innocent civilians, and deaths are crimes by the IDF. Investigations agree that a massacre did not take place. This does not take away from the fact that innocent civilians were killed, and clearly reported were violations of human rights and war crimes.

 

<<<"At least four persons were killed by the IDF because they were outside during curfews or walked in areas declared "closed" by the Israeli army. Such use of lethal force to enforce curfews or "closed" areas is a widespread practice by the IDF.>>>

And WELL it should be. It's not like the soldiers said "Well, you're a minute late. We'll kill you now". I will GUARANTEE that all of these people were given repeated warnings to return home.

The IDF was protecting itself by instituting a curfew. And those that violated it, well, too bad for them.

 

The Israeli army had no rights in which to enforce curfews in the first place. It's an illegal practise which is seen as 'viable' during the illegal occupation. Repeated warnings or not, the curfews are illegal, and using guns, and intimidating unarmed innocents with tanks is wrong. Those that 'violated' it? The IDF violated human rights, and commited war crimes. Your guarantee doesn't mean much when innocents are being killed.

 

<<<The use of lethal force against civilians who do not abide by curfews or are found in "closed" areas is unjustified, and a violation of the international humanitarian law provisions prohibiting the targeting of civilians.>>>

Again, why aren't the Palestinians getting raked over the coals by these groups again?

 

The Palestinians are those under the military occupation. The military occupation denies the basic rights of the Palestinians, and its brutal maintenance eventuating in the innocent death toll rising, is a huge cause for concern and these reports. The Israeli government cannot expect to rule over millions of innocents using force, punishment, and torture for 35 years and not expect any to react with violence. This is not a justification of suicide bombings, they are horrid and cowardly acts designed to cause mass devastation to Israeli innocents and undermine the Palestinian cause. My point is that simple logic and common sense concludes that what the Israeli occupation does is instigate anger, hatred and violence.

 

<<<And THIS is the problem many of us have. "I condemn the bombers, BUT..."

There is NO "but" here. What those sub-human monkeys did is flat-out wrong. Israel did nothing to "deserve" this.

The point I've been making here and the one you fail to understand is that there would be no 'but' on both sides if Israel were not enforcing this occupation.>>>

There STILL is NO justification for the actions of the monkeys, much as you would like to attempt to make one. What they did was WRONG. Plain and simple. No sugar-coating it.

 

I'm not attempting to justify it; I apologise if it comes out that way. However, I am documenting that the actions of the IDF in their targeting of innocents, the destruction they cause, and the occupation they maintain is not justifiable under supposed 'retaliatory measures', and they are morally wrong, as are the attacks by Palestinians.

 

<<<The military occupation is flat out WRONG. The actions of the Israeli army are flat out WRONG.>>>

No, they are not. Israel has been attacked repeatedly for about 18 months. They FINALLY decided to do something about it.

 

The military occupation has been sustained for 35 years. It's resulted in the gradual oppression of Palestinians, and exploitation of their land, and supplies. It is morally wrong, and illegal. The actions of the Israeli army in maintaining the Occupation which denies basic rights to Palestinians is wrong, as are the murders of innocents. If Israel was not attacked, they wouldn't have entered places like Jenin?

 

The attacks on Israel are wrong, and we both accept that. However you cannot deem the targeted murder of innocents on one side more morally correct than another.

 

If the Occupation were not maintained, and Israel wasn't oppressing Palestinians you wouldn't have criticism of Israel, attacks on Israel, and ones that would be seemingly justified as retaliatory measures, much like the supposed retaliations of the Israeli army. The occupation is the source of hatred and violence. The only option in obtaining peace for both sides is ending the occupation, giving the Palestinians their freedom, and from there peace will be achieved. Of course, I don't doubt that there will still be a few Palestinians and Israeli's opposed to peace but we can't let them dictate the futures. Therefore, peace can be achieved, because that which fuels the violence and hatred will be eliminated.

 

Arguments tend to follow the pattern of 'Israel retaliates to the suicide bombers'; 'Suicide bombers retaliate to the occupation' and then you just go further and further back into history, which I've done many a time in debating this issue. Sure, there have been times during the occupation in which Palestinians attacked, Israel attacked, and both 'retaliated' and so on. But there have been various lulls in Palestinian attacks, unfortunately no end in the Occupation. Eliminating the Occupation is the only route to peace.

 

<<<Also, saying that Israel did nothing to deserve this is in great contradiction to your support of Israeli military incursions, the occupation, and thus implying that Palestinian civilians deserve to die for terrorist actions committed by a minority.>>>

Since the terrorists hide out amongst the civilians---and the Israelis are diligent about not intentionally killing innocents---then the death of Palestinian civilians are the fault of the TERRORISTS. THEY are the ones hiding amongst them---using them as shields.

 

It's not like there is a huge crowd of Palestinians with a collaborator hiding between them, whilst they play cat and mouse with the army. In Israel's attempts at rooting out terrorists they simply bulldoze houses, disguised as door to door searches, or visit various places such as universities where everyone is searched and blindfolded, as happened to a very close friend of mine currently in Uni in  Ramallah (has been unable to see his mother located in Gaza, for two years). The deaths of Palestinian innocents are the fault of the terrorists, in saying that, we can say that the deaths of Israeli innocents are the fault of the Israeli army seeing as they are residents of Israel, and attempt to represent the government which supposedly represents the people of Israel.

 

The terrorists, and the IDF are both guilty of killing innocents on the other side.

 

<<<These innocent civilians on both sides did nothing to deserve suicide bombings, or be oppressed by a military occupation.>>>

Except that the Israeli innocent civilians have not ever walked into a Palestinian club and blown themselves up, last time I checked.

There is no moral equivalency here.

 

Please, let's not go into this again. An innocent Israeli is killed by a Palestinian bomber. An innocent Palestinian is killed by an IDF soldier. The IDF, in being a state-sanctioned army, must not kill innocent civilians etc. There is a moral equivalence because both sides are killing each other. Some settlers have killed innocent Palestinians. It's like saying, being shot in the head, or bombed by an F16 is more morally correct than being killed in a bomb blast. They are all revolting crimes against humanity. You can't cite any sort of moralistic value for these actions.

 

<<<Firstly, there are no Palestinian 'settlements'. Settlements are in reference to those illegally built on Palestinian land, by the Israeli government. >>>

There is no Palestinian land. You could argue they built on Jordanian land, I suppose. And what IS this so-called Palestinian land? The West Bank? The Palestinians didn't even WANT the West Bank until Israel took it from Jordan.

 

They didn't build on Jordanian land. The West Bank is west of the Jordan river, and has always been part of historical Palestine. East of the Jordan river was 'Transjordan'. It too was part of the Ottoman Empire, and was given full independence as Jordan. The Palestinian population whom remained despite the evictions, intimidation etc in 1947/48; most resided in Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. Other villages and towns pre-Israel were invaded and occupied by Zionist forces who expelled, and intimidated the inhabitants into leaving, killing some as evident by the countless operations under 'Plan Dalet'.

 

<<<And no, the figures weren't to show that Israel is THE bad guy, but to show that the Israeli army too is a BAD GUY, much like the Palestinian terrorists.>>>

Wrong. It shows that the Israelis have dealt with evil. To use another example, Japan's sneak attack on Pearl Harbor killed a lot of Americans.

Before the war was over, we killed FAR more Japanese than they killed Americans.

So, were we ALSO bad guys for attacking a country that attacked us first?

No, we weren't.

 

The unfair comparisons must stop. Palestinian territories are illegally occupied denying Palestinians to primitive rights. The horrific suicide bombings do not justify the Occupation which has been going on for 35 years. The suicide bombings do not justify Israeli incursions which result in the killing of innocents. Both sides cite retaliation, but the Occupation is the primary source of hatred, and violence and it is upheld by Israel thus aggravating the Palestinians. The comparison you made albeit still bad could be better used in recalling the Zionist forces, and the creation of Israel at the expense of the Palestinian population who'd done absolutely nothing to warrant it.

 

<<<Iraqis/Allies - This has nothing to do with it, if you want to bring up Iraq, then at least acknowledge the weekly bombings by America which have resulted in thousands of innocent Iraqi children dying>>>

"Thousands of innocent Iraqi children dying"---amazing---even Hussein wouldn't attempt to say a lie as that with a straight face.

 

No seriously, as a result of the weekly bombings, the Iraqi death toll has reached somewhere around 500,000. I'll try and get some official sources as soon as I can.

 

<<<This whole myth of 'REMARKABLE restraint'. The only reason Israel does not simply 'kill' the Middle East is because they'd be faced with worldwide condemnation, and even MORE justified criticism of Israel, which they can't simply lay claim to being anti-Semitic.>>>

No country in the Middle East can possibly beat Israel militarily---and we would support them tremendously should a war break out.

So, what would Israel lose? The world would boycott them? As we have seen, the world is FAR more driven by money than anything else. They'd trade with Israel because it's the only country over there WITH money.

Would they ATTACK? Good lord, continental Europe---in addition to being inept militarily---HATES the idea of military action. They'd NEVER do it.

So, Israel would be where they are right now. The world, outside of the U.S and, maybe, Britain, disapproving of them and the Arabs hating their guts.

Not exactly a bad thing. I am completely for us telling Israel to do whatever is necessary to protect themselves.

 

Trade with Israel would stop. Sustaining the Military Occupation means Israel has everything to lose in the form of lives on both sides, respect, dignity, support and eventually money. The whole government would be indicted to War Crimes Court. Simply ethnically cleansing the Palestinians (again) would not be viable, because even the civilians, and some of the ministers in Israel would disapprove. Israel, a country established for the Jewish people who were suffering persecution, are guilty of persecuting the Palestinians, but to completely ethnically cleanse them? Let's not even go there.

 

"If the Occupation were not maintained, and Israel wasn't oppressing Palestinians you wouldn't have criticism of Israel, attacks on Israel, and ones that would be seemingly justified as retaliatory measures, much like the supposed retaliations of the Israeli army. The occupation is the source of hatred and violence. The only option in obtaining peace for both sides is ending the occupation, giving the Palestinians their freedom, and from there peace will be achieved. Of course, I don't doubt that there will still be a few Palestinians and Israeli's opposed to peace but we can't let them dictate the futures. Therefore, peace can be achieved, because that which fuels the violence and hatred will be eliminated."

---Fatmanfoleyfan

 

This means both nations prosper peacefully, securely, with the possibility of beginning trade with one another. Such an event means Israel has everything to gain. The profits due to slave labourers, and exploitation of land would be gone, but in place would be fair practices to still amass profits for both nations.

 

<<<There is condemnation of Israel's action, and condemnation of the Palestinian actions>>>

WHERE is this condemnation of Palestinian actions? Certainly not in the U.N (which is as good a reason as any for us to leave that useless organization) or in any major "human rights" groups.

 

Oh come on now, there is huge condemnation from all those that you've mentioned. The problem within the media is the refusal to acknowledge history and the occupation in regards to the conflict. The media within Europe especially Britain hardly acknowledges it, however ever slightly support for the Palestinian cause has escalated from the citizens of these countries, including America, where protests are getting 100,000 people. The European and US medias have actually built up some kind of idiotic rivalry.

 

The US has called numerous times for the Occupation to end, but in striving for peace meaning it must come to an end, they don't act on it.

 

It absolutely is. Palestinians CAN target Israeli soldiers. They wear uniforms. They can EASILY avoid civilians.

But they don't. They target civilians specifically.

Israel can't easily target terrorists. Thus, they put themselves in great peril by attempting to apprehend them while killing as few innocents as possible.

 

This doesn't explain the Palestinian death toll. Mostly innocents have been killed, they've been searched, blindfolded, treated poorly. The IDF and the Israeli government are guilty of killing innocent Palestinians, are guilty of destroying villages and are guilty of denying them basic rights. Armies worldwide must abide to the basic rules in diminishing civilian casualties, not indulging in inhumane practices, humiliating innocents, and targeting innocents. This is something done constantly by the Israeli army. Palestinians bombers kill target and kill innocents, the IDF target and kill innocents.

 

The IDF 'roots out terrorism' as so disgustingly stated, by killing innocents, bulldozing houses, humiliating innocents and destroying villages. This is not an attempt to root out terrorism, nor is it a fair, humane practice.

 

<<<Claiming no moral equivalence, simply shows your denial of the substantial evidence, or your saying that one form of murder is more morally correct than another.>>>

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Israel isn't TRYING to kill civilians. Some innocents DO die---but it's not the expressed goal of Israel.

Palestine targets civilians. Their expressed goal is to kill innocents.

 

It's called a lie, propaganda. Of course, Israel, are not going to admit to their goal being to kill innocents, they place it under the false premise of 'rooting our terror' or 'retaliation'. This doesn't explain the occupation, this doesn't explain the over 400 soldiers who refused to serve due to the crimes against Palestinians. If you're going to believe this crap about retaliation, then suicide bombers are retaliating to the Occupation. There's no denying it, they both KILL innocents knowingly.

 

<<<So, 1500 Palestinians were killed due to 'collateral damage' as the Israeli government states.

Absolutely. Israel does not target civilians---nor has it.

Palestinians DIRECTLY TARGET civilians.

The actions of the good people of Israel and the sub-human monkeys who run Palestine aren't comparable.

http://www.web.amnesty.org/web....ocument

--- Amnesty International 2001 Report of Israel and the Occupied Territories.

Excerpt below:

"The Intifada

On 29 September Israeli police using excessive force killed five Palestinians and injured more than 200 others at the al-Aqsa Mosque precinct in Jerusalem. The shooting sparked daily demonstrations and riots in Israel and the Occupied Territories which were continuing at the end of the year.>>>

Shall we mention what the al-Asqa group IS?

Why, yes, they're a terrorist group.

A little different than entering a Jewish hotel during Passover and blowing people up.

 

You've made a big mistake, and mistakes like this result in diminishing your opinions, and knowledge of the situation. The al-Aqsa Mosque, not al-Asqa (that's not the mistake), is in reference to Temple Mount. Al-Aqsa is the NAME OF THE MOSQUE where people go to pray. It's a sacred religious site in Jerusalem for Muslims, and Jews. The al-Aqsa martyrs brigade are a terrorist group who simply use the name. Such statements only prove to diminish the worth of your knowledge, and eventual beliefs.

 

<<<The majority of those killed and wounded were demonstrators throwing stones or using slings; at least 100 of those killed were children under 18.>>>

Again, amazing that even Muslim people attempting to shout about how evil Israel is when they appear on TV NEVER mention this.

 

NEVER MENTION WHAT? NEVER MENTION THE STONE THROWING? I'm sorry but this is the most idiotic statement I've ever heard in my life. So, it's justifiable for the Israeli soldiers armed with tanks, guns, and a military to kill Palestinian demonstrators who, get this... THROW STONES! OH MY GOD... This is absolute evil, I mean stone throwing and slings can result in a dent in the tanks...

 

Enough of the sarcasm. This just demonstrates the disgusting use of weapons by the military to kill Palestinians who are protesting against some guy coming into their sacred site, surrounding the place with 1000 Israeli armed soldiers, and not allowing any in to pray. This is provocation, and it provoked protests, and stone throwing. So, the Israeli army thought it good to just kill five innocent Palestinians.

There is not even a semblance of reasonablity in that, especially in your attempt to justify it.

 

<<<The Israeli police, border police, special patrol force and IDF used excessive lethal force, firing rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition including high-velocity bullets at demonstrators. Some Palestinians were deliberately targeted and extrajudicially executed. The Israeli airforce and the navy used heavy weaponry, including helicopter gunships, tanks and naval vessels, to shell randomly Palestinian areas from where armed Palestinians had opened fire.>>>

Guess what? You open fire--you GET return fire. No "crime" there whatsoever.

 

You open fire--you GET return fire. The visit to Temple Mount by Sharon, and the Israeli soldiers who prohibited entry to the civilians wishing to pray provoked protests and stone throwing. This led to armed soldiers firing at the protesters. Shots were then fired on the Palestinian side, and then Israel called up the tanks, vessels, and helicopter gunships. If you're going to use the 'they started first argument' be aware of how the situation started.

 

<<<Armed Palestinians, including members of the tanzimat - Palestinian paramilitary groups linked to Fatah, the predominant group in the PLO - carried out attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians in the Occupied Territories. A number of gunbattles took place between the IDF and Palestinian security services or paramilitary groups. Palestinian armed opposition groups such as Islamic Jihad also placed bombs which killed six Israeli civilians. Israeli settlers were reported to have killed six Palestinian civilians.>>>

The settlers in the "occupied territories" are all military reservists and are on duty to protect themselves from Palestinians.

 

What the hell are you talking about? Stealing the land of Palestinians, and giving them to settlers is illegal. This provokes anger, hatred, and in essence, despite the military surrounding such settlements, they're just putting these people in danger. Settlements are illegal, and there's nothing else to it. They have no right to be on the land.

 

<<<* Eleven-year-old Sami Abu Jazzar was shot dead during a stone-throwing demonstration in Rafah, Gaza Strip, in October by Israeli soldiers who were based in a blockhouse 100 metres away and who were not in danger at the time.

* Hussein 'Abayat, a local leader of the tanzimat, was extrajudicially executed in Beit Sahur in the West Bank by a shell launched from an Israeli helicopter gunship which killed two women standing near his van and injured nine others. An IDF spokesperson admitted that Hussein 'Abayat had been targeted, allegedly because he was going to launch an attack on Gilo settlement.>>>

Not a good thing. Again, if Israel wasn't getting bombed so often, they might be a little more tolerant.

 

Yes, it's not a good thing. You've got to understand that we can't keep defining everything especially actions by Israel as measures of retaliation. The sustained occupation provokes the the actions that lead to the deaths of innocents on both sides.

 

If the deaths of the innocents are not deliberate and intentional---which, again, they usually are not---then, yes, it is morally OK. Israel and Palestine are at war. Let's go ahead and say it. Civilians die in wars. It's a sad thing.

 

The problem is the Occupation is not a war. It's a breeding ground for violence. The occupation is sustained through violent and brutal means by Israel. The Israeli army is killing innocent people intentionally, simply because it's not a 'war'. Going into a refugee camp or village and killing some people is not a war, it's just destruction. It's much the same as a Palestinian suicide bomber going into an area and killing some people, that's not a war.

 

The terrorists are the ones who hide amongst the populace, refusing to make themselves known.

In Israel, you KNOW who is in the IDF.

 

You know who the IDF are, a military belonging to Israel. In being a military backed up by a government you expect the IDF to do their job in locating the collaborators, not killing innocents, destroying villages/houses, and not maintaining an illegal occupation.

 

<<This is a common statement used by pro-Israeli analysts. The problem is, it's just a statement with biased opinions. Negotiations were still taking place during the 'Intifada'.>>>

And the MOMENT the "intifada" started, Israel should have said "Well, negotiations are over. Now, prepare to die, Yassir".

 

Constantly, Yassir Arafat is acknowledged as the problem of everything, by people who refuse to understand the facts. If Arafat were killed, the occupation would still be there, there would still be suicide bombings, innocent deaths. Understand that Arafat is powerless; Israel's sustaining the Occupation is what prohibits peace and fuels the violence, Arafat is just one pathetic excuse in a long list that aims to blame everything but the Occupation. Don't buy it. Israel has maintained the rejectionist stance. It's so easy now, to dismiss the real issues, and Arafat isn't the issue, and neither is Sharon. The issue of the conflict is getting the basic human rights that Palestinians have been denied, this due to the Occupation.

 

<<<At the time, illegal settlements had doubled, and the occupation had worsened despite the Camp David negotiations with the pathetic offers (see my last post for information).>>>

Palestine has NO claim for the land. The land was stolen from the Jews by the Romans. It was seized from the Romans by the Arabs.

Jews were there first.

 

There were several periods before the establishment of Canaan dating back to 600,000BC. Caananite settlement dates back to 3000 BC. The rule of David lasted for 73 years, whilst total Jewish rule of the land amounts to some 414 years. Palestine was once under Greek Rule; Egyptian tribes; Assyrian control; Romans, etc. Basically, in 661 Palestine became a province under Arab-Islamic rule. The land was a home to predominantly Arabs before that, and a long long time ago, when Jews, Caananites, and Arabs lived on the land, it led to Arab rule, and eventually the natives were made Muslim converts, and intermarried. Frankly, documenting the entire history of the land is way too long, but if you're going to make such silly comments try and find out more yourself.

 

The Jews were there first mentality is ignorant, but to stick to the rationale, the Caananites intermarried with the Arabs, means that Arab descendents must be also have traces to the Caananites, meaning that Caananites represented by some Arabs were there first. But before the Caananites there were different tribes.

 

If Jews can stake a claim to the land because of Jewish inhabitants and rule, some 2000 years ago, then the Palestininians who still live there, inhabited the land for 1500 years have a stake to it too. If we were to do this worldwide then a lot of the countries nowadays would not exist.

[Guest fatmanfoleyfan]

sorry-made a mistake.