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Exslade ZX

UFC: Unleashed

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Ouch, Dames announces his resignation from unfuckwitability and now the vultures are circling :)

 

A triangle is commonly referred to as a figure 4... for the same reason - they are discriptive titles as they reflect the shape of the move.  I'm pretty sure you know that, however my sarcasm meter hasn't detected enough to start ringing the alarms.

 

Why would a company want to bury its paid performers and limit their ability to make you money?  The WWE still does it, which I believe was the point being made and how the UFC is better in that regard.  I don't mind Rogan editorializing, even if I disagree with him on occasion. 

 

The armbar finish was called the finish because it was the finish of the match. 

 

I saw Kerri Kasem on an episode of the ben stiller show, I scored huge obsure reference points for it among those I was watching with.  I didn't think she was bad when she did the post-fights, she just wasn't great.  If you don't like "how do you feel" then by all means, don't watch Freedom Fight 2005 ;)

 

I have been training in BJJ/sub grappling for 3 years now and in my experience a triangle and figure four are not the same thing. A triangle is generally a reference to the choke, a body triangle is the same leg positioning applied to the waist. The only times I have heard a figure four referenced in grappling is in regards to the arm position setting up a kimura on a few Bas Rutten instructionals and some early smaller MMA shows. If you have any fights, shows or instructionals where the body triangle or triangle choke has been referred to as a figure four I'd be interested in digging them up.

 

The UFC is a sport that wants to be taken seriously. WWE is sports entertainment which is near impossible to be taken seriously. It's not a valid comparison in my estimation.

 

My girlfriend wanted to kick the TV when watching UFC with me when Kerri kept saying the exact same thing to every single fighter. She maybe be hot but after the exact same "so how do you feel?" "talk us through this" four times in a row even I was like "For fucks sake, ask something else!"

 

I really don't care about Dames leaving the site or not so that has no bearing on my reply. The guy has been on past boards I've modded and vice versa so I really don't view him in a different light simply because of his admin status. Mike's pretty much been running the show for a while anyway, the site was even taken over by Mike previously only for Dames to ask his way back a few months ago after an extended absence. The only difference now is he is now going on his own terms rather than having his position taken off him while he's gone. I have no malice towards the guy buy I do think trying to compare sports entertainment to an entertaining sport is tenuous at best and as such chose to reply with my own opinion.

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I've heard "figure-four" as term for the set-up of moves which involve either one hand gripping the opposite arm's bicep, or bringing a foot behind the knee of the opposite leg (IE-"Figure-four your legs!" at a few submission wrestling tournaments). Of course the finished maneuvers aren't called "figure-four" whatevers, but the phrase has seen use. "Triangling" (sp?) is the probably more poper term, but much like use the Japanese names for techniques, it's not something that's heavily emphasized one way or another.

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I have been training in BJJ/sub grappling for 3 years now and in my experience a triangle and figure four are not the same thing. A triangle is generally a reference to the choke, a body triangle is the same leg positioning applied to the waist. The only times I have heard a figure four referenced in grappling is in regards to the arm position setting up a kimura on a few Bas Rutten instructionals and some early smaller MMA shows. If you have any fights, shows or instructionals where the body triangle or triangle choke has been referred to as a figure four I'd be interested in digging them up.

 

This is quite possibly the most needless nitpick I have read in my time posting about MMA here - and this forum has a pretty good reputation in my eyes for nitpickery. It's the equivalent of "Treker" and "Trekie".

 

 

The UFC is a sport that wants to be taken seriously. WWE is sports entertainment which is near impossible to be taken seriously. It's not a valid comparison in my estimation.

 

They appeal to a similar fanbase - given the ratings success of UFC shows following Monday Night Raw. The product is also similar - the concept being two guys fighting each other. Only, in wrestling, it's predetermined. The WWE could choose to have their matches look exactly like a UFC fight. Raw and Unleashed serve the same purpose - to bring attention to bigger shows (RAW does it for WWE PPV's, Unleashed does it for Ultimate Fight Night and UFC PPVs). In the end, what sells the shows for the UFC and the WWE -the matches- are not only similar, but EXACT.

 

The big differing point between the two is how the WWE presents its product and its wrestlers and how the UFC presents their product and their wrestlers. The UFC's simplier approach -which could easily be adapted for the WWE- is, while not perfect, the superior one.

 

My girlfriend wanted to kick the TV when watching UFC with me when Kerri kept saying the exact same thing to every single fighter. She maybe be hot but after the exact same "so how do you feel?" "talk us through this" four times in a row even I was like "For fucks sake, ask something else!"

 

Which is different from what Rogan or Osbourne or Bennett or that weird guy in the dark period or anyone else did, how? Kasem didn't insult the fighters, she didn't flub her lines, she looked comfortable in the octagon, she appeared to have some grasp on fighting and used some of the terms - even if she wasn't an expert - .... she wasn't bad. If the worst thing that can be said about her is that she kept using cliches, which she was most likely told to do, I don't see how that's enough to warrant the hate she has been getting.

 

I really don't care about Dames leaving the site or not so that has no bearing on my reply. The guy has been on past boards I've modded and vice versa so I really don't view him in a different light simply because of his admin status. Mike's pretty much been running the show for a while anyway, the site was even taken over by Mike previously only for Dames to ask his way back a few months ago after an extended absence. The only difference now is he is now going on his own terms rather than having his position taken off him while he's gone. I have no malice towards the guy buy I do think trying to compare sports entertainment to an entertaining sport is tenuous at best and as such chose to reply with my own opinion.

 

Wrestling and MMA have been connected forever.

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This is quite possibly the most needless nitpick I have read in my time posting about MMA here - and this forum has a pretty good reputation in my eyes for nitpickery.  It's the equivalent of "Treker" and "Trekie".

 

Two Ks in Trekkies and Trekkers.

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Rudo, I was going to reply to Cam but you pretty much answered everything for me the way I was going to answer.

 

I've recently gotten into MMA this year. I caught UFC 51: Super Saturday, which was my first 3 hour UFC PPV and I was hooked. Ultimate Fighter came on and that helped some more and since then, I've seen the last few 3 hour PPV's (48-53) and the first 7 UFC's and gotten to learn a bit about the history and the technique of MMA. Considering I've been watching wrestling for 21 years now, the fact that I like MMA almost as much as I like wrestling shows just how much they've impacted me in less than a year.

 

Everyone knows that I'm not exactly average height or anything and the fact that Royce Gracie was able to tap out larger fighters due to skill and technique really impressed me, especially since back then, everything was pretty much openweight. I've heard about Pride for years, but now that they've got a deal with FSN, I'll definitely try and catch up on that as well.

 

Part of me actually wanted to do a couple of Diatribes on the past few UFC's, but I wouldn't want to embarrass myself with my lack of MMA knowledge.

 

Dames

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This is quite possibly the most needless nitpick I have read in my time posting about MMA here - and this forum has a pretty good reputation in my eyes for nitpickery.  It's the equivalent of "Treker" and "Trekie".

 

The UFC is a sport that wants to be taken seriously. WWE is sports entertainment which is near impossible to be taken seriously. It's not a valid comparison in my estimation.

 

They appeal to a similar fanbase - given the ratings success of UFC shows following Monday Night Raw.  The product is also similar - the concept being two guys fighting each other.  Only, in wrestling, it's predetermined.  The WWE could choose to have their matches look exactly like a UFC fight.  Raw and Unleashed serve the same purpose - to bring attention to bigger shows (RAW does it for WWE PPV's, Unleashed does it for Ultimate Fight Night and UFC PPVs).  In the end, what sells the shows for the UFC and the WWE -the matches- are not only similar, but EXACT.

 

The big differing point between the two is how the WWE presents its product and its wrestlers and how the UFC presents their product and their wrestlers.  The UFC's simplier approach -which could easily be adapted for the WWE- is, while not perfect, the superior one.

 

My girlfriend wanted to kick the TV when watching UFC with me when Kerri kept saying the exact same thing to every single fighter. She maybe be hot but after the exact same "so how do you feel?" "talk us through this" four times in a row even I was like "For fucks sake, ask something else!"

 

Which is different from what Rogan or Osbourne or Bennett or that weird guy in the dark period or anyone else did, how?  Kasem didn't insult the fighters, she didn't flub her lines, she looked comfortable in the octagon, she appeared to have some grasp on fighting and used some of the terms - even if she wasn't an expert - .... she wasn't bad.  If the worst thing that can be said about her is that she kept using cliches, which she was most likely told to do, I don't see how that's enough to warrant the hate she has been getting.

 

I really don't care about Dames leaving the site or not so that has no bearing on my reply. The guy has been on past boards I've modded and vice versa so I really don't view him in a different light simply because of his admin status. Mike's pretty much been running the show for a while anyway, the site was even taken over by Mike previously only for Dames to ask his way back a few months ago after an extended absence. The only difference now is he is now going on his own terms rather than having his position taken off him while he's gone. I have no malice towards the guy buy I do think trying to compare sports entertainment to an entertaining sport is tenuous at best and as such chose to reply with my own opinion.

 

Wrestling and MMA have been connected forever.

 

You didn't answer my question. You just seek to deride my as being a nit picker. Sorry I know the difference between techniques and the appropriate names for them.

 

A lot of MMA fans despise pro wrestling. However due to TUF now more wrestling fans like MMA. They may share fans, but to say MMA appeals to the same fanbase is not true. A lot of MMA fans don't know for care for Takada's previous wrestling history which led to PRIDE. If anything MMA appeals more to the same fanbase as other combat sports like kickboxing, sub grappling and boxing which is why K-1 runs both MMA and kickboxing shows and boxers like Tyson and Roy Jones Jr go to UFC.

 

Rogan may also be cookie cutter at times, but if he notes something in his commentary generally he will ask the fighter about it also ("You looked in trouble there when he had the choke, how did you come back like that?).

 

Pro wrestling and MMA became connected due to Satoru Sayama. Brazilian Vale Tudo fights had been going on for decades before Shooto came about.

 

Hey Dames, it's good to hear you are getting into MMA. It's people like yourself that are going to ensure the future of the sport so eventually fighters are paid and treated the way they deserve to be. I would have preferred for you to have replied for yourself but I guess some people thought you shouldn't have to and spoke for you.

 

Paragon of Virtue, I've trained at a few places. When I was younger I used to train judo under Brian Jacks but left after a rumour got around he hit his wife and my parents stopped me from going. I went back a couple of years later but didn't feel comfortable there and didn't like his teaching style. A few months after that I started training at Pancrase London with Jess Liaudin and a sambo guy called Paul who's last name I can't recall mainly due to the fact he didn't teach the classes much. After I moved house I started training at Ze Marcello Jiu Jitsu Club, now BTT London, at the Tokei Gym in London Bridge under Ronaldo Campos who is now over at BTT Boston and Eduardo Careillos. I then went to train under Roberto Atalla at Rio Grappling Club in the basement gym of the SOAS building of the University of London. Roberto was the guy that gave me my blue belt. In the last three years I have also trained with Leo Negao, Rodrigo "Comprido" Medeiros, Vitor "Shaolin" Ribeiro, Murilo Rupp, Ze Marcello, "Minotauro" Nogueira, Carlson Gracie Sr, Carlos Gracie Jr, Jean Silva, Roger Gracie, Braulio Estima, Mario Reis and Fabricio Werdum. I have photos of myself with Jean Silva, Reis, Werdum, Rupp, Carlson, Carlos and Leo but not with Shaolin, Roger, Braulio, "Comprido" and Nog because the webspace I had them on expired as my credit card expired and I didn't renew it due to a whole Paypal problem that's not worth explaining. Add to that my comp crashed last year which wiped them out on my hard drive. I was pretty pissed at the time as I lost my photos with Pele, Jeremy Horn and Renzo also, however I do have an Extreme Force program signed by both Horn and Jason Black, a print out of the Renzo photo and the cover of Gracie Magazine with Nog armbarring Coleman signed by "Minotauro". I currently train at BTT London and Rio Grappling Club, although now Roberto is gone the classes are generally just a few of us turning up to practice and spar ourselves. Roberto left Luiz Tosta to run things however since Luiz now trains mainly at London Shootfighters another purple belt Pastel usually does the majority of classes. I am trying to arrange UK seminars for Andre Galvao, Dean Lister and David Jacobs in the coming months for my kickboxing club Fei Lung M.A.S. I also try to get to the wrestling classes Fridays at the Pavillion in Bromley, Kent to improve my takedowns. I've been to Holland to visit family the last two years running and on one trip went to an Ernesto Hoost seminar at the Vos Gym. Also got to meet Ilonka Ilmont and Alistair Overeem which was nice. Next rtime I want to try get to Breda to go meet Cor Hemmers.

 

LOTC, fuck off.

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Part of me actually wanted to do a couple of Diatribes on the past few UFC's, but I wouldn't want to embarrass myself with my lack of MMA knowledge. 

 

Dames

 

 

I just thought this needed a bit of attention.

 

There are a LOT of people writing about MMA nowadays who haven't got a clue when it comes to pretty much anything outside of the UFC and/or PRIDE, and sometimes even their knowledge of the Big Two is severely limited.

 

A great example is James Hirth from Sherdog. The guy has been writing for the site for over 4 years now, and I shit you not, the guy is still fucking clueless. His comments on many fighters often seem based on nothing more than quick scan of SD's FightFinder, and even then he finds a way to misanalyze a guy's W/L record. Personally, I'd rather read write-ups by people with limited knowledge of MMA as long as they avoid the previously mentioned pitfall of trying to comment too much on things they haven't seen. Would I still critique the guy? Of course, but I'd try and do it in a way that promotes discussion or simply informs someone, rather than with the seething annoyance I spit at guys like Hirth.

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Part of me actually wanted to do a couple of Diatribes on the past few UFC's, but I wouldn't want to embarrass myself with my lack of MMA knowledge. 

 

Dames

 

 

I just thought this needed a bit of attention.

 

There are a LOT of people writing about MMA nowadays who haven't got a clue when it comes to pretty much anything outside of the UFC and/or PRIDE, and sometimes even their knowledge of the Big Two is severely limited.

 

A great example is James Hirth from Sherdog. The guy has been writing for the site for over 4 years now, and I shit you not, the guy is still fucking clueless. His comments on many fighters often seem based on nothing more than quick scan of SD's FightFinder, and even then he finds a way to misanalyze a guy's W/L record. Personally, I'd rather read write-ups by people with limited knowledge of MMA as long as they avoid the previously mentioned pitfall of trying to comment too much on things they haven't seen. Would I still critique the guy? Of course, but I'd try and do it in a way that promotes discussion or simply informs someone, rather than with the seething annoyance I spit at guys like Hirth.

 

I'll agree with you that some columnists on SD have more opinions than knowledge at their disposal, but Jeff chose them and since he runs the show, it's down to him if he considers it worth the front page. I don't read many of the coulmns myself, generally just the interviews and news. I prefer InsideFighting for columns although even they have some crappy writers too.

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I don't think it would be a bad idea to do a diatribe/review type thing with two people involved. You can do it from the side of the newer fan and then have one of the more experienced people (RRR, Lei Tong) come in with the more indepth/involved perspective on it. That way for the people who have not seen MMA it is not too intimidating for new/non-fans, while having someone else there to get in deeper without the reader really realizing it. Plus, over the course of the review you might ask a question/bring up a point that the reader might be curious about that they haven't wanted to ask in a thread.

 

Wow that was rambling.

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You didn't answer my question. You just seek to deride my as being a nit picker. Sorry I know the difference between techniques and the appropriate names for them.

 

I didn't answer your question because LT did. If you want me to elaborate, fine. A figure four represents the the shape of the move, not the what body part it concerns. Whatever connotation or common useage of the term doesn't deride from the fact that Dames was technically right. And guess what? Frank Mir used the term when commentating. You know, Frank Mir. He's sorta known to be a good jiu jitsu guy, UFC champion or something. Might, GASP, have more experience in this thing than you. But hey, since you don't use it in your dojo or gym or whereever the fuck you go that makes you think you can act like a total bitch to someone because you have a coloured belt and they don't. I can't stand the fact that here's a guy who is showing some enthusiasm in the sport who gets railed on because he didn't use a term that you use. Rather than saying "it's commonly known as a body triangle" or whatever sensitive term you used to help educate, you instead had to establish that, indeed, you know more than him and that he's apparently an idiot for showing interest. It's sad that the competitive spirit shown in MMA has transferred over to its fans where any opportunity to show that you're "better" than another is often taken. It's a pointless dick waving.

 

A lot of MMA fans despise pro wrestling. However due to TUF now more wrestling fans like MMA. They may share fans, but to say MMA appeals to the same fanbase is not true. A lot of MMA fans don't know for care for Takada's previous wrestling history which led to PRIDE. If anything MMA appeals more to the same fanbase as other combat sports like kickboxing, sub grappling and boxing which is why K-1 runs both MMA and kickboxing shows and boxers like Tyson and Roy Jones Jr go to UFC.

 

And guys like Undertaker, Bradshaw and Mick Foley go to UFC shows. Fact is, PRIDE has drawn tens of thousands more fans than the UFC on the foundation of pro wrestling. The WWE also draws tens of thousands more fans. I don't think the UFC has even broken the 20,000 fan attendance mark. Guess what? Going on MMA purists alone won't get the UFC off the ground. The appeal of pro wrestling and MMA *is* the same - two guys fighting. Now, a lot of wrestling fans like the theatrics of pro wrestling which they may not get in MMA, but there still is a sizable crossover to consider and certainly not dismiss. And MMA fans might not like the theatrics of pro wrestling. The MMA fans that *do* _hate_ pro wrestling are probably the same dumbasses who cry "work" once after every PRIDE show. They're probably the same irrational, insecure, cocksuckers who gets upset when someone calls a kneebar and heel hook or a triangle a figure four.

 

Rogan may also be cookie cutter at times, but if he notes something in his commentary generally he will ask the fighter about it also ("You looked in trouble there when he had the choke, how did you come back like that?).

 

Didn't Kasem do that as well? I'm not advocating her return or anything like that, I just think that she didn't suck at it.

 

Pro wrestling and MMA became connected due to Satoru Sayama. Brazilian Vale Tudo fights had been going on for decades before Shooto came about.

 

Hooking and Shooting have been tricks of the wrestling trade for at least a century. Karl Gotch helped train several influencial figures in MMA back in the 70's. Inoki set up a number of vs. Judo, vs. Boxing, vs. Wrestling matches in the 70's as well.

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I started a thread in site feedback about wanting to do some colums on it, mainly (p)reviews for big shows. I am admittedly not the most knowledgable on this board, but I still would like to think that I Have something to offer to the table.

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I'd like to see that. But this site isn't the place for it - the main site is pretty much dead and I don't think you'd get from it what you'd want (whatever that would be). Don't let that stop you from doing (p)reviews, though. Bloggit.

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You didn't answer my question. You just seek to deride my as being a nit picker. Sorry I know the difference between techniques and the appropriate names for them.

 

I didn't answer your question because LT did.  If you want me to elaborate, fine.  A figure four represents the the shape of the move, not the what body part it concerns.  Whatever connotation or common useage of the term doesn't deride from the fact that Dames was technically right.  And guess what?  Frank Mir used the term when commentating.  You know, Frank Mir.  He's sorta known to be a good jiu jitsu guy, UFC champion or something.  Might, GASP, have more experience in this thing than you.  But hey, since you don't use it in your dojo or gym or whereever the fuck you go that makes you think you can act like a total bitch to someone because you have a coloured belt and they don't.  I can't stand the fact that here's a guy who is showing some enthusiasm in the sport who gets railed on because he didn't use a term that you use.  Rather than saying "it's commonly known as a body triangle" or whatever sensitive term you used to help educate, you instead had to establish that, indeed, you know more than him and that he's apparently an idiot for showing interest.  It's sad that the competitive spirit shown in MMA has transferred over to its fans where any opportunity to show that you're "better" than another is often taken.  It's a pointless dick waving.

 

A lot of MMA fans despise pro wrestling. However due to TUF now more wrestling fans like MMA. They may share fans, but to say MMA appeals to the same fanbase is not true. A lot of MMA fans don't know for care for Takada's previous wrestling history which led to PRIDE. If anything MMA appeals more to the same fanbase as other combat sports like kickboxing, sub grappling and boxing which is why K-1 runs both MMA and kickboxing shows and boxers like Tyson and Roy Jones Jr go to UFC.

 

And guys like Undertaker, Bradshaw and Mick Foley go to UFC shows.  Fact is, PRIDE has drawn tens of thousands more fans than the UFC on the foundation of pro wrestling.  The WWE also draws tens of thousands more fans.  I don't think the UFC has even broken the 20,000 fan attendance mark.  Guess what?  Going on MMA purists alone won't get the UFC off the ground.  The appeal of pro wrestling and MMA *is* the same - two guys fighting.  Now, a lot of wrestling fans like the theatrics of pro wrestling which they may not get in MMA, but there still is a sizable crossover to consider and certainly not dismiss.  And MMA fans might not like the theatrics of pro wrestling.  The MMA fans that *do* _hate_ pro wrestling are probably the same dumbasses who cry "work" once after every PRIDE show.  They're probably the same irrational, insecure, cocksuckers who gets upset when someone calls a kneebar and heel hook or a triangle a figure four.

 

Rogan may also be cookie cutter at times, but if he notes something in his commentary generally he will ask the fighter about it also ("You looked in trouble there when he had the choke, how did you come back like that?).

 

Didn't Kasem do that as well?  I'm not advocating her return or anything like that, I just think that she didn't suck at it.

 

Pro wrestling and MMA became connected due to Satoru Sayama. Brazilian Vale Tudo fights had been going on for decades before Shooto came about.

 

Hooking and Shooting have been tricks of the wrestling trade for at least a century.  Karl Gotch helped train several influencial figures in MMA back in the 70's.  Inoki set up a number of vs. Judo, vs. Boxing, vs. Wrestling matches in the 70's as well.

 

The whole point of it being called a triangle is due to the shape of the gap between the thighs and calf. If Carlos Gracie Jr and Carlson Gracie Sr call them triangles then I'm going to go off what they call them seeing as how one is head of Gracie Barra and the other is one of the original Gracies to compete in vale tudo and both are high ranking jiu jitsu guys. They have a lot more experience than Mir by several decades, regardless what he may call something on commentary. If Dames had a problem with my post I'm sure he's capable or replying in kind. He is a grown man and runs this show for now, I didn't realise you felt the need to protect him seeing as if he really was offended he could easily ban my ass. It's very sweet of you though. I don't consider myself better than Dames, I was trying to start a discussion with him by expressing my views and asking a question about what he meant but I guess you chose to speak in his place.

 

Wrestling is not two guys fighting. It doesn't even pretend to be two guys fighting anymore in America. The last time an actual sub was used on WWE was when Puder caught Angle and then they played it off like it was nothing. Japanese style has always been a lot more realistic using kneebars, armbars, kimuras... it's why guys like Barnett, Inoue and Rutten have been able to work matches comfortably in the past and guys like Sakuraba have been able to compete in MMA. PRIDE worked off the back of past Japanese promotions like UWFI and Battlearts but that's mainly because the only difference in MMA is the holds finish fights. As for MMA fans and practitioners being particular about the names of holds, that's because generally they prefer to call things by their correct names. I didn't know calling things what they actually are made such people who do so undesirable in your eyes. I guess it's ok to be wrong as long as your close enough in your estimation however seeing as a heel hook has a completely different effect on a leg and looks completely different but is still a leg submission, it's excusable. Let's just call powerbombs body slams and moonsaults senton bombs over in the wrestling folder while we're at it, who cares what they actually are?

 

There are hardly any shooters in wrestling outside of maybe Regal and some of the guys that trained with the Harts. Obviously the same can't be said for Japan as I already noted due to the fact they have tried to keep a certain illusion of realism by incorporationg actual submissions. Hooking and shooting used to be part of the wrestling trade because it used to be real and started off over here in Britain in the 1800s with guys like Abraham Cann before it went further afield and eventually things became rigged for entertainment purposes in the mid 1900s. However wrestling as it was and pro wrestling and what it became are quite far removed. You can't compare someone like Matt Lindland to Rey Mysterio.

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Let's just call powerbombs body slams and moonsaults senton bombs over in the wrestling folder while we're at it, who cares what they actually are?

 

Yeah, that's basically what this discussion boils down to. I'm pretty sure prowrestling fans would respond the same way if people started calling moves whatever they felt like and became upset that the correct names were given.

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Except he wasn't calling the move whatever he wanted.

 

Frank Mir during the Salaverry/Fryklund fight: "he has his waist figure foured."

 

If I am a fan seeing that move for the first time, with the commentator saying it is a figure four am I going to say to myself "Gee, that shape looks more like a triangle where the gap is. Therefore I shall call it a body triangle." or "wow, awesome figure four there for the finish"

 

If the move was being called the oobeldy goobeldy body lock then yeah, go ahead and say it is a body triangle dipshit. But there is no need to get snippity about a simple correction that could have been made, if it was even necessary.

 

This is what I was getting at a little earlier. It can be intimidating to someone just getting into MMA, which will be more often now, and seeing a "wrong" move name being met with an unnecessary response. Who would want to go into that just seeing their first event or two?

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Would'nt it be easiler to call every throw a su-play instead of whatever the japanese name is? It would be easiler on the announcers and the fans by saying su-play instead of "kapakas no nippa" or whatever is the real name.

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Hey Dames, it's good to hear you are getting into MMA. It's people like yourself that are going to ensure the future of the sport so eventually fighters are paid and treated the way they deserve to be. I would have preferred for you to have replied for yourself but I guess some people thought you shouldn't have to and spoke for you.

 

I would have replied for myself, but I didn't see the post until well after RRR had already replied and I didn't want to just reiterate what he said, since he pretty much said what I was going to.

 

Dames

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They have a lot more experience than Mir by several decades, regardless what he may call something on commentary. If Dames had a problem with my post I'm sure he's capable or replying in kind. He is a grown man and runs this show for now, I didn't realise you felt the need to protect him seeing as if he really was offended he could easily ban my ass. It's very sweet of you though. I don't consider myself better than Dames, I was trying to start a discussion with him by expressing my views and asking a question about what he meant but I guess you chose to speak in his place.

 

You knew full well what he meant - there wasn't any other occasion where any thing resembling a figure four was used in the match. Anyone with an ounce of deductive reasoning would have gotten that and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Your "question" was to single out -what in your mind was- a dumb comment by Dames. But it wasn't dumb, he was pretty spot on (besides the death part). And the intent certainly wasn't discussion. Mir talked about the figure four being illegal in amatuer wrestling, maybe he got it from there? BJJ doesn't have a monopoly on hold names, especially since amatuer wrestling predates it by a solid millenia :)

 

Wrestling is not two guys fighting. It doesn't even pretend to be two guys fighting anymore in America.

 

So they, like, dance??? "I'm going to kick your ass!!" gives off the impression of a fight, to me at least.

 

As for MMA fans and practitioners being particular about the names of holds, that's because generally they prefer to call things by their correct names. I didn't know calling things what they actually are made such people who do so undesirable in your eyes. I guess it's ok to be wrong as long as your close enough in your estimation however seeing as a heel hook has a completely different effect on a leg and looks completely different but is still a leg submission, it's excusable. Let's just call powerbombs body slams and moonsaults senton bombs over in the wrestling folder while we're at it, who cares what they actually are?

 

It's more akin to calling a moonsault a "backflip". Technically true, but that's not what most people call it.

 

There are hardly any shooters in wrestling outside of maybe Regal and some of the guys that trained with the Harts. Obviously the same can't be said for Japan as I already noted due to the fact they have tried to keep a certain illusion of realism by incorporationg actual submissions. Hooking and shooting used to be part of the wrestling trade because it used to be real and started off over here in Britain in the 1800s with guys like Abraham Cann before it went further afield and eventually things became rigged for entertainment purposes in the mid 1900s. However wrestling as it was and pro wrestling and what it became are quite far removed. You can't compare someone like Matt Lindland to Rey Mysterio

 

My original point was that mma and pro wrestling have been involved forever. If you define MMA as UFC 1993, which most people do, then that's true. Ken Shamrock was a wrestler before anything. Dan Severn was doing pro wrestling in UWF-i before beginning in MMA. Most Japanese MMA companies were started by wrestlers. Holds in Shooting and Hooking, which were taught from wrestler to wrestler, have also helped develop some of the MMA style. Despite Dana Whites efforts to separate MMA and Pro Wrestling, the most successful cards in MMA history were based on Pro Wrestling style storylines.

 

If you want to define MMA as Vale Tudo, then I think that would make for a very interesting and enlightening discussion.

 

Rey Mysterio Jr. and Matt Lindland both put on entertaining matches. The most exciting MMA matches -if you break it down- feature similar things as professional wrestling. Drama, Story, Technique, High Impact moves, Back-and-forth action. What do you get out of MMA? What makes you enjoy it? Because, to me, the only difference between MMA and Wrestling is MMA is more exciting because its real. The blood rushes faster, the heart pumps harder. But in the end, its still two guys fighting. Even if the WWE strays away from the competitive reasons for fighting and elaborates on more personal reasons for fighting, Backlash was sold on Batista vs. HHH having a fight.

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They have a lot more experience than Mir by several decades, regardless what he may call something on commentary. If Dames had a problem with my post I'm sure he's capable or replying in kind. He is a grown man and runs this show for now, I didn't realise you felt the need to protect him seeing as if he really was offended he could easily ban my ass. It's very sweet of you though. I don't consider myself better than Dames, I was trying to start a discussion with him by expressing my views and asking a question about what he meant but I guess you chose to speak in his place.

 

You knew full well what he meant - there wasn't any other occasion where any thing resembling a figure four was used in the match.  Anyone with an ounce of deductive reasoning would have gotten that and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here.  Your "question" was to single out -what in your mind was- a dumb comment by Dames.  But it wasn't dumb, he was pretty spot on (besides the death part).  And the intent certainly wasn't discussion.  Mir talked about the figure four being illegal in amatuer wrestling, maybe he got it from there?  BJJ doesn't have a monopoly on hold names, especially since amatuer wrestling predates it by a solid millenia :)

 

Wrestling is not two guys fighting. It doesn't even pretend to be two guys fighting anymore in America.

 

So they, like, dance??? "I'm going to kick your ass!!" gives off the impression of a fight, to me at least.

 

As for MMA fans and practitioners being particular about the names of holds, that's because generally they prefer to call things by their correct names. I didn't know calling things what they actually are made such people who do so undesirable in your eyes. I guess it's ok to be wrong as long as your close enough in your estimation however seeing as a heel hook has a completely different effect on a leg and looks completely different but is still a leg submission, it's excusable. Let's just call powerbombs body slams and moonsaults senton bombs over in the wrestling folder while we're at it, who cares what they actually are?

 

It's more akin to calling a moonsault a "backflip".  Technically true, but that's not what most people call it.

 

There are hardly any shooters in wrestling outside of maybe Regal and some of the guys that trained with the Harts. Obviously the same can't be said for Japan as I already noted due to the fact they have tried to keep a certain illusion of realism by incorporationg actual submissions. Hooking and shooting used to be part of the wrestling trade because it used to be real and started off over here in Britain in the 1800s with guys like Abraham Cann before it went further afield and eventually things became rigged for entertainment purposes in the mid 1900s. However wrestling as it was and pro wrestling and what it became are quite far removed. You can't compare someone like Matt Lindland to Rey Mysterio

 

My original point was that mma and pro wrestling have been involved forever.  If you define MMA as UFC 1993, which most people do, then that's true.  Ken Shamrock was a wrestler before anything.  Dan Severn was doing pro wrestling in UWF-i before beginning in MMA.  Most Japanese MMA companies were started by wrestlers.  Holds in Shooting and Hooking, which were taught from wrestler to wrestler, have also helped develop some of the MMA style.  Despite Dana Whites efforts to separate MMA and Pro Wrestling, the most successful cards in MMA history were based on Pro Wrestling style storylines.

 

If you want to define MMA as Vale Tudo, then I think that would make for a very interesting and enlightening discussion.

 

Rey Mysterio Jr. and Matt Lindland both put on entertaining matches.  The most exciting MMA matches -if you break it down- feature similar things as professional wrestling.  Drama, Story, Technique, High Impact moves, Back-and-forth action.  What do you get out of MMA? What makes you enjoy it?  Because, to me, the only difference between MMA and Wrestling is MMA is more exciting because its real.  The blood rushes faster, the heart pumps harder.  But in the end, its still two guys fighting.  Even if the WWE strays away from the competitive reasons for fighting and elaborates on more personal reasons for fighting, Backlash was sold on Batista vs. HHH having a fight.

 

As I said before, I've heard a figure four used in pro wrestling and in MMA however in MMA it's been in connection with applying a kimura/keylock. Salaverry didn't use a kimura to finish so that's why I asked what he meant. I appreciate Dames is probably not as up on MMA which is why I wanted clarification.

 

American pro wrestling has guys that supposedly "hate" each other one minute and then are cracking jokes together and complimenting each other at media events and in interviews the next. It's moving even further from the roots of actual catch wrestling as time goes by. The number of moves in that can be pulled off without cooperation are few. Considering it is a cooperative effort involving athletic people going through choreographed moves to entertain people whilst protecting one another from injury as best as they can, there is some merit in it being similar to dance. Hell, after Mania when Batista was doing newspaper interviews and such he was still complimenting the person he supposedly hated and was set to "fight" again in the following weeks. I'll still argue pro wrestling diverged from actual wrestling a fair while ago as you don't see too many huracanranas in amateur wrestling and an armdrag in amateur wrestling is a lot different from one in pro wrestling. One is an actual competitive sport and the other is a bunch of guys working together to entertain. I've conceded in Japan things are different but they have a much more educated audience in terms of understanding martial arts due to their history with judo, traditional jiu jitsu and karate. Pro wrestling until fairly recently with the advent of comedy matches and promotions maintained a kayfabe attitude. Takada in wrestling and in PRIDE were the same thing until he started doing HUSTLE.

 

Mixed martial arts to me is when trained martial arts practitioners fight each other in legit competition. I enjoy it because I think it's the toughest sport around and the testing ground for fighters and their styles.

 

I'd actually say the most successful UFC cards have been because of genuine hate (Shamrock/Ortiz, Lidell/Tito) as opposed to things like spilt coffee, one fighter wanting to rape another's wife and training partners turning on each other out of ego or because they lost a match.

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Let's just call powerbombs body slams and moonsaults senton bombs over in the wrestling folder while we're at it, who cares what they actually are?

 

Yeah, that's basically what this discussion boils down to. I'm pretty sure prowrestling fans would respond the same way if people started calling moves whatever they felt like and became upset that the correct names were given.

True, for the most part. Although I think terms like "rear naked choke" have gotten over in wrestling.

 

American pro wrestling has guys that supposedly "hate" each other one minute and then are cracking jokes together and complimenting each other at media events and in interviews the next.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but this happens a lot in real sports as well. Athletes/teams will "hate" each other for as long as the game/match lasts. After which, there is no ill will. It's actually less common nowadays to find a lingering hate between opposing sides.

 

If I am a fan seeing that move for the first time, with the commentator saying it is a figure four am I going to say to myself "Gee, that shape looks more like a triangle where the gap is. Therefore I shall call it a body triangle." or "wow, awesome figure four there for the finish"

I thought it was called a triangle because the legs created a triangle shape, with the corners being the crotch, the bent knee, and the intersection of the other knee and ankle?

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Let's just call powerbombs body slams and moonsaults senton bombs over in the wrestling folder while we're at it, who cares what they actually are?

 

Yeah, that's basically what this discussion boils down to. I'm pretty sure prowrestling fans would respond the same way if people started calling moves whatever they felt like and became upset that the correct names were given.

True, for the most part. Although I think terms like "rear naked choke" have gotten over in wrestling.

 

American pro wrestling has guys that supposedly "hate" each other one minute and then are cracking jokes together and complimenting each other at media events and in interviews the next.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but this happens a lot in real sports as well. Athletes/teams will "hate" each other for as long as the game/match lasts. After which, there is no ill will. It's actually less common nowadays to find a lingering hate between opposing sides.

 

If I am a fan seeing that move for the first time, with the commentator saying it is a figure four am I going to say to myself "Gee, that shape looks more like a triangle where the gap is. Therefore I shall call it a body triangle." or "wow, awesome figure four there for the finish"

I thought it was called a triangle because the legs created a triangle shape, with the corners being the crotch, the bent knee, and the intersection of the other knee and ankle?

 

The RNC has got over thanks to Samoa Joe however a "sleeper hold" is the same thing essentially. Only difference is a proper RNC should have the attacker putting his forearm across the throat, grabbing his opposite arm's bicep and putting his other hand on the opposite shoulder. Otherwise, same thing. Some MMA guys still go for the sleeper hold style like Matt Hughes though although it's less effective because it gives more space and if they can grab your hand it's actually possible for them to break your arm over their shoulder.

 

You make a point about actual athletes acting in the same way but that's largely because as team members they have to get on despite their differences. Batista and HHH are actually buddies that just "hate" each other when in character. Athletes actually hate each other because of egos, money and media attention and fans hate each other because they don't want their team to lose. Unfortunately in soccer some people don't leave the game behind but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

 

If we want to get technical about what a triangle should actually be called it is Sankaku jime and was integrated into BJJ by the late Rolls Gracie from judo. It literally means "triangular strangle". The triangle is actually an abbreviation itself because of the shape as Starvenger noted. I'm going to go with what Jigaro Kano chose to call it when he first created the technique and what Judoka, BJJ Grandmasters and Professors call it over what you think it should be called Pinjockey.

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Because in my post I clearly state I don't call it/don't think it should be called the body triangle.

 

If you don't see by this point that "The correct term is actually body triangle." is a much better response than "what the fuck is the figure four of death? you mean the body triangle spinelock?" then there really isn't much purpose in this discussion. Give the history lesson behind the name of the move, hell that is the whole purpose of discussion for newer fans, to learn more. There is just no need to be a prick about it, which was my point.

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I wasn't being a prick. It was a straight question, no malice. I was asking what he meant because it made no sense to me. I didn't realise cursing suddenly meant I was starting shit, next time I'll make sure to keep my naughty words to myself when asking something so I don't hurt everyone but Dames' feelings and cause an uproar.

 

I'm actually having Shannon ask the Team Quest boys if they do call the body triangle a figure four in amateur wrestling but she's flying to Vegas right now for Saturday so I'm going to have to wait a few a couple of hours for an answer. I think you can actually triangle a single leg if you have someone's back to set up a guillotine pin but not sure about the body thing.

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Actually, a proper RNC should pinch an opponent's neck between both the forearm and bicep of the choker's arm which will effectively block the carotid artery and keep blood from flowing to the brain. Placing the forearm across the throat, on the other hand, will simplly put pressue on an opponent's windpipe, which though more painful for the recipient, takes longer to render an opponent unconcious and have a stronger probability of accidentally injuring the opponent.

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In grabbing your opposite shoulder the arm will actually come across the rest of the throat to pinch the carotid artery when you then slide your hand down from your shoulder or tense your muscles and breathe in to take away the space. Their adam's apple ends up by the crease of your elbow and your forearm will be across the back of their neck. Try it. Put your hand on your bicep, then put your other hand on your shoulder, you'll see what I mean.

 

I'm aware of the different between a blood and air choke. You can actually switch to the tracheal choke variation instead like Hughes did against Trigg in their second fight fairly easily if you already have grabbed your bicep as you just slide the grip up to your hand, get a Gable grip and put your forearm behind their back so it is vertical against their shoulder blade. Then turn your grip so the bone of your wrist goes into their trachea and there you go. To actually crush the windpipe you bring your forearm close to your bicep and take away the rest of the space.

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