Hogan/Michaels Backstage gossip

[Guest JoeJoe]

Eventually, Vince decides to go with Michaels over Hart in 96, which pissed Hart off to no end(even though Michaels was hotter at the time, a better worker, a much more charismatic performer, and wasn't a proven failure on top like Hart was), resulting in a 6 month vacation that helped sabotage HBK's title reign.

 

How did Bret's vacation hurt HBK's title reign?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It left Shawn to carry things on his own, and he flopped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No to mention the roster was HORRIBLE, Hall and Nash also left, and Michales facing the NW fuckin O. I never saw Bret have that sort of a competition.

[KTID 0]

That's complete and utter nonsense. Shawn became the main focus of the WWF as of the royal rumble in January of that year. The NWO weren't a force in WCW until late in the year, by which time Bret was back, or was preparing to come back. Shawn flopped on top against an average WCW.

[Guest JoeJoe]

Make no mistake about it, the moment the "outsiders" angle began with Scott Hall making it to Nitro...was when all the attention went to WCW. WWF had no chancen from then on.

 

WCW already had all the big names, and now they had WWF departees Hall and Nash..and Hogan forming the NWO. With Vince's top star Bret Hart gone too, you'd think Michales did a pretty good job keeping that piss poor of a roster alive. I mean, lets face it, 1996 had the worst cards/angles/feuds/matches going on. The only think pumping it with oxygen was Shawn Michaels.

[KTID 0]

But you're just making that up to suit your story. WCW wasn't an unstoppable ratings juggernaut until late '96. Shawn period of being the sole focus of the show didn't have to compete with the NWO at its peak. He still flopped.

[Guest Y2DAYDAY]

Actually, look at the numbers, business went up from January until June, or more specifically, July, NWO time.

 

The facts speak for themselves. Bret Hart took the belt in November 1995 from Diesel and the next In Your House did a .35 buyrate, the worst IYH buyrate, actually the worst WWF buyrate in history at that time, and it may still be. Think about this, Diesel vs Bulldog and Yoko vs Mabel in October 1995 did a .40 buyrate, and did better business than Bret Hart vs Bulldog and I think a casket match with Taker and Mabel.

 

So they take Nash off of the top and things fall even further.

 

However, Royal Rumble 1996, built around the return of Michaels from the concussion angle with Owen Hart, did a 1.10 buyrate, the best Rumble buyrate since 1993 at that time. IYH Feb 96 with Bret vs Diesel in a cage and HBK vs Owen Hart blowing off that feud did a .65 buyrate, a success based on previous IYH disasters. A previous poster said everything was built around HBK from Jan. on so really he should get the credit for the bump here but realistically, it was a double main event, the Nash heel turn was a success actually, and people were into the HBK chase. Plus the cage meant something at the time. So I'll give credit to 5 guys, both Harts, Diesel, HBK, and Taker, since everyone knew Taker would screw Diesel but how was the question. Ultimately, Bret was the lameduck guy in the Taker vs Diesel feud during that match and Owen was simply the guy that knocked out HBK.

 

WM 12 did slightly below Mania 11 but since that was the LT show, the fact the ironman match did close was a huge success. No doubt the credit of this one goes to the Michaels chase and the Ironman match gimmick.

 

IYH April "Good Friends, Better Enemies" did a .70 buyrate, best since the second IYH headlined by Diesel vs Sid and HBK vs Jeff Jarrett. To put it into perspective, this did twice the business of Bret vs Bulldog. A huge IYH success at the time.

 

MSG 5-19-06, the night of the curtain call with the Clique, drew the biggest gate in MSG history at that point for the HBK vs Diesel cage match.

 

The May 1996 Beware of DOG PPV information I couldn't find, probably due to the whole situation surrounding that PPV with the lost transmission and that stuff.

 

KOTR 96 headlined by the Bulldog vs HBK rematch, which was a dead feud because Bulldog was a midcarder, not to mention the NWO starting a month earlier with Hall and Nash on Nitro, did on the level of the previous years KOTR, which was a miracle because I think Great American Bash did huge.

 

Things got worse in July and on. When was Bash at the Beach again? When did HBK starting working main event programs with midcarders? Exactly.

 

I said it before and other posters also said it, HBK was drawing very well until all of the top guys except Taker left, which coincided with the NWO taking off and killing WWF.

 

He didn't have a chance. If Bret Hart would have stayed on, he could have been top heel and worked HBK, possiblly giving WWF a chance in 96. But Bret Hart knew Hall and Nash were leaving, and knew Warrior wouldn't stick around so he left HBK to fail.

 

I thought we covered this already, facts are facts people.

 

WCW ratings started soaring in May 96 and really started dominating a couple months into the NWO.

 

With business as bad as it was with Hart on top, imagine how much worse it would have been with Hart in the HBK spot in 96 with no main eventers to work with against the NWO. HBK started to bump the numbers, and did successfully for a documented 6 months. HBK was starting the fix the damage from the distasterous Hart and Diesel

reigns until everyone bailed and NWO took off.

[Gert T 0]

I know this was mentioned about a week ago and when the thread was about HBK & Hogan, but I think that was a great idea by the poster who thinks HBK should have accepted the two match deal with the cage match and then just drop to the floor before Hogan got out. He could just act like he slipped off of the cage before Hogan got out.

[hitman2003 0]

Years from now neither guy is gonna be remembered for their drawing power. The periods that both guys were on top business was down. So neither guy was really a draw. But years from now, both guys will still be remembered for what they did in the ring. Both guys would go out there and put on good matches almost all of the time. It doesn't really matter who was a better wrestler, or who was a bigger draw. Both guys were/are great in the ring and that's all that will be remembered.

[Guest Y2DAYDAY]

Also, how anyone can claim Hart is a world class worker and Michaels isn't is nuts.

 

Hart was a near world class worker that people believe was a world class worker due to his own hype. People really believed he was the best there is, was, and ever will be, but they were wrong. Hart was excellent, near world class like I said, but he was a notch below upper world class.

 

HBK was world class, no doubt. I'd say Flair and HBK are at the top of world class and Bret Hart is lower world class. Bret was a notch below HBK and he knew it, leading to his paranoia.

 

Most of the great Bret Hart matches were with his brother, his brother in law, and Michaels. Thinking quickly, he had a great match at SS 91 with Curt Henning, , SS 92 with Bulldog, WM 10, SS 94 and others with Owen, Great matches with Steve Austin, and great matches with HBK. He had miracles with Taker and Nash but HBK outdid him with both guys.

 

So really, Bret Hart had great matches with Owen, HBK, Henning, Bulldog, and Austin. That is 5 guys and I'll go 8 to be generous and to allow for forgetting matches.

 

HBK was had great matches with Jannetty, Nash(April 96), Bret, HHH many times(HHH is Shawn's Owen, Nash is his bulldog), Mick Foley(Sept. 96), Angle (twice this year), Benoit(the 3 ways and singles, all 4 matches are over 4 stars), Jericho(Mania 19), some would say Shelton Benjamin from the RAW match, Scott Hall in the ladder matches. I'll stop at 10 but I could go a little more.

 

HBK in terms of being a worker is Shaq, and Bret Hart was Kobe.

[Guest JoeJoe]

But you're just making that up to suit your story.  WCW wasn't an unstoppable ratings juggernaut until late '96.  Shawn period of being the sole focus of the show didn't have to compete with the NWO at its peak.  He still flopped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Post #215 makes almost all of it clear. Maybe its the lame Michales hatin that makes you mould it to suit your story. The guy, backsatge, wasn't a saint by any means. We know that. But he did work his ass off and keep it alive in 96. No Hart, no Hall, no Nash. And then WCW's NWO. Not to mention he carried midcarders to mainevent feuds with a 4 star on almost every PPV he wrestled that year.

[KTID 0]

As I said in the other thread about HBK...

 

The only "Shawn bias" on here is coming from you and the other HBK-fanboys. You're simply too blinded in your fandom that you won't listen to reasonable discussion about him and his many flaws as well as his strenghts.

 

Therefor, i'm going to give up even attempting to get through to you.

[Guest JoeJoe]

Yeah, do that. Also, don't forget to get puched in the face the next time you call someone defending something a fanboy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hater.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Was the roster in 1996 really much worse than in 1994?

 

1994: Lex Luger, Tatanka, Bam Bam Bigelow, Bob Backlund, Owen Hart, Razor Ramon, Diesel, 123 Kid, Jeff Jarrett, IRS, Yokozuna, Jim Neidhart, Crush & Underfaker were the biggest stars.

 

MISSING BIG NAMES: Undertaker (killed at Royal Rumble and didn't return until Summerslam), Shawn Michaels (manager of Diesel and colour commentator on RAW from Wrestlemania until very late in the year), Mr. Perfect (big star in 1993, disappeared soon after his return at Mania), Randy Savage (stopped wrestling after facing Crush at Wrestlemania)

 

1996: Vader, Mankind, Undertaker, Steve Austin, HHH, Owen Hart, British Bulldog, Sid, Ultimate Warrior, Yokozuna, Goldust, Jake Roberts, Marc Mero, Ahmed Johnson, Savio Vega & Ron Simmons were their biggest stars.

 

MISSING BIG NAMES: Hall, Nash, Hart

 

I'd honestly take the 1996 group. Vader had been WCW's biggest heel for years. Foley had mainevented in WCW. Austin was a very valuable part of their midcard and was part of one of the best tag teams in WCW history. Undertaker was a WWF staple. Johnson was a rising star in 1996. Goldust was extremely controversial but he got attention. Marc Mero was always underrated. Savio was at the hottest point in his WWF career, which isn't saying much but at least his matches with Austin were good. Simmons was a former WCW Champion coming in to the WWF for the first time.

 

1994 had Yokozuna who was fading fast after his title loss, a fake version of Undertaker, Lex Luger who was dying at that point, Jeff Jarrett who was nothing until he beat Razor in 1995, Bigelow who was in a cold streak before the LT thing in 1995, Crush who was on the way out, Backlund who was an old man who managed to revive his floundering career with a gimmick change in the summer, Tatanka who was struggling since the streak ended and who's heel turned destroyed him, and IRS who was relying on heat left over from his Money Inc days. Only Owen, Diesel & Razor were anything resembling rising stars throughout most of Bret's run. Bulldog showed up at Summerslam, and that's about it. Bret Hart didn't exactly have the WCW 1998 roster to work with either.

 

Actually, look at the numbers, business went up from January until June, or more specifically, July, NWO time.

 

Yes, but you are only looking at one side of the equation. You have to look at WCW's numbers, and they weren't going up until after Halloween Havoc in October.

 

You mentioned that Great American Bash got a huge buyrate in 1996, which is true...well if you consider a 0.48 to be a huge buyrate. Great American Bash 1995 had a 0.51, so the 1996 show actually did worse. Bash at the Beach did a 0.71 for one month in July, but it looks pretty bad compared to the 1.02 for Hogan/Flair that Bret Hart went up against in 1994. It also wasn't entirely a result of the NWO angle. Uncensored 1996 featuring the Doomsday Cage Match did a 0.70 opposite Wrestlemania. WCW did not start doing really well with the NWO angle until after Shawn lost the belt. Even by November, they only got a 0.55 for World War III 1996. The numbers don't lie. The NWO had little impact on Shawn's title reign.