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Guest stringerbell

Bubba Ray Dudley calls TNA the"new ECW."

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Guest MikeSC

I actually defy you to name the "good" Rhino, Duds, Corino, or Credible matches. Tajiri seemed to face only Crazy and Guido, which became tiresome. And RVD was terrible. He never could work a competent match. Horrendously tedious. The WWE made him watchable --- and RVD is no great shakes in the WWE.

Rhino

Rhino vs. Rob Van Dam, Anarchy Rulz '00

Rhino vs. Spike Dudley, November 2 Remember '00

(These two matches have stiff shots, decent storytelling, great heat, and are at the very least entertaining, which is more than I can say for the majority of work in most other promotions.)

At the risk of being snarky --- my challenge goes unanswered.

Corino

Steve Corino vs. Tajiri - Hardcore Heaven '00

Steve Corino vs. Jerry Lynn - Heat Wave '00

(Again, Corino's matches in ECW were ultimately forgettable, but it was his character and how he portrayed himself that made ECW fans watch.)

So, again, it's not the WORK that was worth a damn --- it was his character?

 

As I said, the matches sucked. Hard.

Justin Credible

Justin Credible vs. Jerry Lynn - Heat Wave '98 (and the whole summer series at that)

Justin Credible vs. Tommy Dreamer - Guilty as Charged '99

Justin Credible/Lance Storm vs. Tommy Dreamer/Shane Douglas - Living Dangerously '99

Justin Credible/Lance Storm vs. Rob Van Dam/Jerry Lynn - Heat Wave '99

Justin Credible/Lance Storm vs. Tommy Dreamer/Masato Tanaka vs. Mike Awesome/Raven - Living Dangerously '00

Justin Credible vs. Lance Storm - Hardcore Heaven '00

Justin Credible vs. Jerry Lynn - Anarchy Rulz '00

(Credible's way too underrated as a wrestler, in my book. Is he great? Hell no. He's just a bit above Billy Gunn in terms of talent, but even Billy Gunn had good matches with the right opponents - Jamie Noble, Mick Foley, The Rock - and Credible gelled VERY well with Jerry Lynn, Tommy Dreamer, and Lance Storm.)

I like you and all Corey, but you are laying a righteous bitch-slapping on the concept of quality with this list.

RVD's WWE work smokes his ECW work --- and I'm not a big fan of his WWE work.

I'll have to disagree with you here to an extent. RVD's early WWE work smokes his late ECW work. After the Guerrero feud, RVD hasn't done anything remotely worth watching, outside of a couple of good spots against Kane during their short feud, in WWE, and his late ECW was exactly what you hate about him: nothing but stalling and a few highspots. His work in ECW until mid-1999 was solid, and the stalling worked for the character, but after that?

Undertaker's character for most of his career was a no-selling beast. It didn't excuse that his matches pretty well sucked until about 1995 or so.

RVD's character didn't help his ringwork --- but his work was brutal without it.

 

Think of Rico. In OVW, Rico was a smooth and solid performer. In the WWE, it was QUEENS-A-FLAMING Rico and his work was just not good.

And Vyce, the reason why so many love ECW is because of the overall atmosphere. Not even just the whole "oooh, we're fucking rebels" feel to it that became forced later on, but because you could tell that most of the workers were there because they wanted to be and not because they just needed a paycheck (since, you know, Paul E sucks at math).

Actually, at the end, they were there because they needed a paycheck and nobody really wanted them.

 

It should also be noted how few qualms the ones with talent had about leaving to go where they'd be paid consistently.

 

I don't buy into the "they really wanted to be there" stuff because it's no more real for ECW as it was/is for any promotion in history.

Justin doesn't get nearly enough credit around these parts for whatever reason. He's a very solid worker, can talk pretty well, and knows exactly how and when to bump. He deserves a shot in TNA.

The appalling lack of any semblance of talent or charisma is a bit of a deathknell. He was, at his best, a pedestrian worker with inept mic skills and a push that far, far, far outstripped his meager talents.

WCW in 1999-2000 was fucking garbage, ECW was easily better. Christ at least even if it was garbage style wrestling it was fun and entertaining. WCW was boring as hell, angles bad, wrestling bad. I dare say at the point ECW first got a TV deal they had the strongest in ring product (which might not be saying much...take a look at shows like KOTR 99 or BATB 99).

Spring Stampede 99 is better than anything ECW ever dreamed of doing.

 

And 2000 had WCW as crap --- but ECW was even worse crap. WCW at least had some young talent who you thought might develop into something. FB 2K is better than any ECW show I've ever seen.

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Guest MikeSC
Mike, seriously. Your posting is just pathetic at this point.

 

Edited for truth.

I think most people have already reached this conclusion.

Aww, pissy that your banishment didn't hold?

 

Hey, nice to see that, yet again, I'm the one "starting" a flame war, right?

 

And, Andy, don't you have idiotic points in the games folder to fail to make cogently?

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I think this whole thread was lost when it was suggested that WWF in 1999 was better than ECW in 1999. I mean really. ECW in 1999 was certainly not fantastic, but compared to a promotion that produced one of the worst years for match quality in wrestling history, it would certainly seem like it was.

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Guest MikeSC

It flat-out was. D-Lo was bringing good matches regularly. The Rock was developing into a solid worker. Edge & Christian v The Hardys had yet to get stale.

 

That alone puts it above ECW. ECW was better than WCW from about late May until July 2000.

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In other words, "ARRGH I WILL FORCE MY OPINIONS ON OTHER PEOPLE AND IF THEY DON'T AGREE, THEY'RE JUST PLAIN WRONG!"... yeah we get it. Just go back to the Pit and stay there. I don't really see anyone who really wants you here.

 

The topic is largely an opinion-based one. "Who's better than the other?". To some, ECW > WCW/WWF. To others, ECW < WCW/WWF. But to immediately dismiss other people's opinions completely with a "Well you're just wrong!" is counterproductive to what this board is about, which is DISCUSSION. If you have such a low opinion of other people's, then why the fuck are you here?

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I am. And I really would like an answer too. Why was the (unquestionably correct) decision made to ban him, only for him to be un-banned and be allowed to continue doing *exactly* what he got banned for.

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Well, i think that if it was reversed, it could definately be called questionable. And seriously, all he is doing in here is stating his opinon, and people are bitching because they disagree with it. I disagree with it but he has just as much right to say his side as I do mine.

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But thats exactly my point. He's not just stating his opinion. He doesn't know the meaning of the word "opinion". Or the word "discussion". And thats the whole point of this board is for people with opinions to have discussions.

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Guest Andrew J.

I've only seen one other guy that regularly uses "mutant" to refer to ECW marks, and he is also noted for having a generally low opinion of the wrestling quality in ECW.

 

Could it be that MikeSC is a mindless fanboy of a certain useless moron...?

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I've only seen one other guy that regularly uses "mutant" to refer to ECW marks,  and he is also noted for having a generally low opinion of the wrestling quality in ECW.

 

Could it be that MikeSC is a mindless fanboy of a certain useless moron...?

 

 

The "mutant" tag is deserved for some, however I think MikeSC just throws it around way to loosely. "You liked THAT match? Yer a Mutant"

 

I could easily pick a ton of WWE matches that I personally felt are/were overrated and then call anyone who liked them "WWE lemmings" but that type of conversation is pointless.

 

Bottomline is, all I really chimed in to do was to address the difference between an "ECW Mutant" and someone who might be entertained by a match that MikeSC happened to PERSONALLY not like.

:ph34r:

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Mike, seriously. Go back and watch HALF of the Justin Credible main events in ECW. His timing was good, his selling acceptable, and the only thing that hurts his matches are his generally weak offense and overall lack of beyond-lower-card charisma. Also, if you really think that how well a wrestler plays their role doesn't affect the quality of a match...then seriously, dude, you're just not even thinking about trying to justifty your views anymore.

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Also, some other points I'd like to clarify:

 

1. Yes, WCW in 2000 had young talent that you could see moving up and possibly becoming something. Helms, Moore, O'Haire, Palumbo, Sanders, Knoble...hell, even Hugh Morrus had become watchable beyond the occasional short garbage brawl he would have before the whole New Blood angle started, and Norman Smiley was made even more entertaining as Screamin' Norman. But that still doesn't excuse the fact that most of WCW's matches up until the last quarter of 2000 were downright awful, with the only glimmering hopes being in the Cruiserweight division and during the short Lance Storm/Booker T series.

 

2. Yeah, 1999 was a pivotal year for the WWF/WWE, as The Rock did rise up and become the superstar he was destined to be 2 years prior, D'Lo was bringing good matches constantly (and still was before his tour of Japan after his first TNA stint, oddly enough), and the E&C/Hardy Boyz feud was unmatched. Oh, wait...the E&C/Hardy Boyz feud didn't start until early 2000, since they only had...what? One match in 1999 against each other, and that match was better than most of the rest of their matches? Hrmm...almost all of the "great" WWF/WWE tag matches in late 1999 and 2000 were done in an ECW-style manner...interesting...

 

3. So nobody liked working for ECW? I think most interviews say otherwise. The only "big" player for ECW that I can think of that hated it was Lynn, and that was because he wasn't getting paid at all. Corino, too. Everybody else loved it, but ultimately decided to try and make the best decision they could by jumping to a bigger company for a bigger and more steady paycheck.

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Edge and Christian and the Hardyz had a 5-match series in 99, along with PPV matches at KOTR and Summerslam. They also had a bunch of matches that summer.

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Guest MikeSC
But thats exactly my point.  He's not just stating his opinion.  He doesn't know the meaning of the word "opinion".  Or the word "discussion".  And thats the whole point of this board is for people with opinions to have discussions.

I'd like somebody to explain what is the difference in somebody like Corey stating his opinion and me stating my opinion. I like Corey and we don't agree on this, but I'm more than capable of having a discussion with him.

 

I didn't flame anybody. HTQ and AndrewTS started that.

 

I provided a DIFFERING viewpoint. It's a little impossible to have a "discussion" when one "opinion" leads to people complaining to the admin.

 

Again, you don't want a "discussion". You are seeking a "circle jerk". The "discussion" is leading to people trying to get me banned again.

 

And, again, it'd be for no real reason done by a small group of people with an axe to grind.

I've only seen one other guy that regularly uses "mutant" to refer to ECW marks, and he is also noted for having a generally low opinion of the wrestling quality in ECW.

 

Could it be that MikeSC is a mindless fanboy of a certain useless moron...?

Yes, the dirty secret is out. Nobody can possibly find ECW to be tedious and to find their fans to be rather blinded to obvious flaws in a product without idolizing that guy.

 

Again, ECW went belly-up for a reason. It's because A LOT of people didn't like the product.

Mike, seriously. Go back and watch HALF of the Justin Credible main events in ECW. His timing was good, his selling acceptable, and the only thing that hurts his matches are his generally weak offense and overall lack of beyond-lower-card charisma. Also, if you really think that how well a wrestler plays their role doesn't affect the quality of a match...then seriously, dude, you're just not even thinking about trying to justifty your views anymore.

Corey, I specifically said a character can ruin a guy's work. I mentioned Rico as a guy who had that. Rico was solid in OVW. He could have been quite good. He was then stuck with the gay gimmick and it utterly killed his career. I'm not even a huge fan of OVW's usual style of work and I thought Rico looked like a more polished in-ring performer than anybody there with him (including Lesnar). He showed potential and that he can perform well. His character in the WWE never permitted him to do it.

 

I stated RVD has never demonstrated any ability to be a solid ring worker. It's impossible to assume that it is his character that made his matches tedious since he refuses to change his character. Perhaps RVD can be great. I see no evidence to indicate that this is the case.

 

As for Justin --- I've seen most of his ECW matches and, to be perfectly honest, he was as bland and rather boring to watch as Jeff Jarrett was/is in TNA. If he was a midcarder, I wouldn't have cared. He was pushed as a Champ when he had no business being close to the ME.

The "mutant" tag is deserved for some, however I think MikeSC just throws it around way to loosely. "You liked THAT match? Yer a Mutant"

 

I could easily pick a ton of WWE matches that I personally felt are/were overrated and then call anyone who liked them "WWE lemmings" but that type of conversation is pointless.

Shockingly, I'd agree with most of your selections. The WWE churns out quite a bit of shit. I also find Mankind v UT HITC and Rock v Hogan at WM18 to be rather terrible matches.

2. Yeah, 1999 was a pivotal year for the WWF/WWE, as The Rock did rise up and become the superstar he was destined to be 2 years prior, D'Lo was bringing good matches constantly (and still was before his tour of Japan after his first TNA stint, oddly enough), and the E&C/Hardy Boyz feud was unmatched. Oh, wait...the E&C/Hardy Boyz feud didn't start until early 2000, since they only had...what? One match in 1999 against each other, and that match was better than most of the rest of their matches? Hrmm...almost all of the "great" WWF/WWE tag matches in late 1999 and 2000 were done in an ECW-style manner...interesting...

I'm not declaring 1999 WWF to be good. My opinion on Vince Russo's writing should be pretty well known to you, Corey.

 

And, Corey, Edge & Christian and the Hardys had NUMEROUS matches against one another in 1999. Starting in early June up until the end of the year. The TIT tournament was 5 alone. Another on MTV. A few on TV. One at KOTR. Heck, the Hardys v NAO matches were quite watchable in late 1999.

 

Hardys v Edge & Christian were not an ECW style match. ECW ladder matches were not spotfests. At all. Hardys/E & C were.

 

And D-Lo is a really solid performer. Always was. WWE wasted him, though he did take a while to be able to get over injuring Droz.

3. So nobody liked working for ECW? I think most interviews say otherwise. The only "big" player for ECW that I can think of that hated it was Lynn, and that was because he wasn't getting paid at all. Corino, too. Everybody else loved it, but ultimately decided to try and make the best decision they could by jumping to a bigger company for a bigger and more steady paycheck.

Corey, how many of them STAYED?

 

Almost all of them left when the money was presented to them.

1. Yes, WCW in 2000 had young talent that you could see moving up and possibly becoming something. Helms, Moore, O'Haire, Palumbo, Sanders, Knoble...hell, even Hugh Morrus had become watchable beyond the occasional short garbage brawl he would have before the whole New Blood angle started, and Norman Smiley was made even more entertaining as Screamin' Norman. But that still doesn't excuse the fact that most of WCW's matches up until the last quarter of 2000 were downright awful, with the only glimmering hopes being in the Cruiserweight division and during the short Lance Storm/Booker T series.

WCW had Three Count, whom I thought were great and should have been given a chance to run with the tag belts. And April 1999 in WCW was one of the best months any promotion ever had.

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The comments I made about the character impacting the match were about Corino, mostly. Because he pulled off the character of a smart-mouthed, chickenshit heel so well, and the fact that he took an asskicking like no other, his matches were enjoyable. I also felt Rhino's ECW matches were better than any of his WWF/WWE matches, with the exception of Raven vs. Rhyno from Backlash '01, because he was allowed to be the pure fucking monster that he can play whereas in the WWF/WWE he had to actually try to wrestle, which he's not that good at.

 

I completely forgot that the TIT had E&C/Hardy Boyz as a best-of-5 series. All I remember between the two teams is the awesome No Mercy '99 ladder match. Speaking of which...ECW ladder matches weren't spotfests? Uh, Mike, one of the biggest reasons to dislike ECW is that 70% of their matches WERE spotfests.

 

So you disliked Credible's work because of his placement on the card? Interesting. While I'll wholly concur that he wasn't a good World champion, I can also see why Paul stuck him in the role, seeing as how Credible was one of the few workers on the roster that could generate heel heat without getting cheers. Sure, a lot of it was because he wasn't anywhere near the calibre of performer that ECW fans were accustomed to (and I'm just leaving that open for you to throw in an RVD insult, since I know you'll hardly be able to resist), so they boo'd him. The Dreamer/Anderson series of late 2000 was much better than the Dreamer/Credible series, but Dreamer/Credible also had a little more emotion to their matches because of Credible's entourage stacking the deck against Dreamer. Then again, maybe that's because Dreamer just rules.

 

And there's no way you can't have enjoyed the RVD/Sabu Stretcher match from '96. C'mon!

 

And yes, WCW did have Three Count. And the Jung Dragons. And Elix Skipper when he was still putting on good matches. And Kidman before he sucked. And Rey Mysterio Jr. And Kid Romeo towards the end. And Jason Jett/EZ Money doing some of the best work of his career towards the end. Hence why I summed it all up with "Cruiserweight division," since the most watchable points of WCW seem to always come from the Cruiserweight division.

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I don't know why you guys are thinkg RVD is great in the first place. If anything give props for the other wrestlers carrying his dead weight across the ring so he can do his spots.

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Just to add something about the Dudleyz. Why they were stale they were still very over with the fans. So over that whatever team beat them would have gotten a big boost.

 

What I would have done was bring in the Dudleyz to SD and have them challenge MNM for the belts and if the Dudz don't win they'll leave the WWE. MNM beats them and sends them off. Big time heel heat for MNM.

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I don't think RVD is great. I know that he's just above average, if even that, and is only exciting because his technique is that much different from every other worker's. But to deny that he's had some damn good matches in ECW is either ignorance towards the material in question or flat-out idiocy.

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But to deny that he's had some damn good matches in ECW is either ignorance towards the material in question or flat-out idiocy.

With certain persons here, it's a lot of both. I think a lot of people are too quick to put down RVD for not being a good wrestler, when his strength has never been his wrestling but his unique in-ring style. I think RVD is a lot like Shawn Michaels in that respect. They are both great showmen and performers, but their wrestling ability is below average.

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Guest MikeSC
The comments I made about the character impacting the match were about Corino, mostly. Because he pulled off the character of a smart-mouthed, chickenshit heel so well, and the fact that he took an asskicking like no other, his matches were enjoyable. I also felt Rhino's ECW matches were better than any of his WWF/WWE matches, with the exception of Raven vs. Rhyno from Backlash '01, because he was allowed to be the pure fucking monster that he can play whereas in the WWF/WWE he had to actually try to wrestle, which he's not that good at.

I thought Rhyno's work with Jericho far exceeded any of his work in ECW. He showed an ability to work (much like Raven's ringwork in WCW was significantly better than his ECW work) and, if not for the neck injury, could have become a major player.

 

The neck injury, though, killed his ringwork.

I completely forgot that the TIT had E&C/Hardy Boyz as a best-of-5 series. All I remember between the two teams is the awesome No Mercy '99 ladder match. Speaking of which...ECW ladder matches weren't spotfests? Uh, Mike, one of the biggest reasons to dislike ECW is that 70% of their matches WERE spotfests.

ECW ladder matches (I'm thinking specifically of Sabu v Sandman matches) were not spotfests to any degree. Barbed wire and ladders doesn't work.

So you disliked Credible's work because of his placement on the card? Interesting.

I didn't HATE JJ as IC Champ (I didn't LIKE him, but there was no visceral hatred). I found him loathesome as WCW and TNA Champ.

While I'll wholly concur that he wasn't a good World champion, I can also see why Paul stuck him in the role, seeing as how Credible was one of the few workers on the roster that could generate heel heat without getting cheers.

But the problem is --- no matter how you frame it, he was an unmitigated disaster as ECW Champ. Ratings bombed with him. Yes, Awesome left them in the lurch. Credible was not a good option.

Sure, a lot of it was because he wasn't anywhere near the calibre of performer that ECW fans were accustomed to (and I'm just leaving that open for you to throw in an RVD insult, since I know you'll hardly be able to resist), so they boo'd him. The Dreamer/Anderson series of late 2000 was much better than the Dreamer/Credible series, but Dreamer/Credible also had a little more emotion to their matches because of Credible's entourage stacking the deck against Dreamer. Then again, maybe that's because Dreamer just rules.

And I can't name a single Dreamer match I can honestly claim to have enjoyed in any sense of the word.

And there's no way you can't have enjoyed the RVD/Sabu Stretcher match from '96. C'mon!

I didn't. Sorry. Sabu was never cup of tea and RVD was never anything special.

And yes, WCW did have Three Count. And the Jung Dragons. And Elix Skipper when he was still putting on good matches. And Kidman before he sucked. And Rey Mysterio Jr. And Kid Romeo towards the end. And Jason Jett/EZ Money doing some of the best work of his career towards the end. Hence why I summed it all up with "Cruiserweight division," since the most watchable points of WCW seem to always come from the Cruiserweight division.

And the CW division made up a rather sizable chunk of what was on. And it was quite good --- though spotty --- stuff.

Just to add something about the Dudleyz. Why they were stale they were still very over with the fans. So over that whatever team beat them would have gotten a big boost.

What team got a rub from beating the Duds? Flair & Batista? RVD & Kane? Storm & Regal? London & Kidman? Fans may cheer for their spots, but nobody really longs for them to return.

What I would have done was bring in the Dudleyz to SD and have them challenge MNM for the belts and if the Dudz don't win they'll leave the WWE. MNM beats them and sends them off. Big time heel heat for MNM.

I doubt the fans would have cared. The Duds didn't have a rub to give.

But to deny that he's had some damn good matches in ECW is either ignorance towards the material in question or flat-out idiocy.

Or somebody who finds a guy who stalls as much as Randy Orton to be as tedious to watch in the ring as Randy Orton.

With certain persons here, it's a lot of both. I think a lot of people are too quick to put down RVD for not being a good wrestler, when his strength has never been his wrestling but his unique in-ring style. I think RVD is a lot like Shawn Michaels in that respect. They are both great showmen and performers, but their wrestling ability is below average.

Except Shawn can carry slugs to great matches. RVD has to be carried to be watchable.

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Guest JMA
I think this whole thread was lost when it was suggested that WWF in 1999 was better than ECW in 1999. I mean really. ECW in 1999 was certainly not fantastic, but compared to a promotion that produced one of the worst years for match quality in wrestling history, it would certainly seem like it was.

Agreed. The WWF in 1999 was easily the worst year of the "Attitude" era.

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Its not the fact that RVD has put on great matches, or is great himself. He's a sloppy wrestler, and you can really notice on some of his matches that the opponent doesn't know what to do.

 

HBK may not be what he was 10 years ago, but he's not as bad as RVD wrestling wise.

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TNA can't be the new ECW.

 

Nothing can, and while I am one, this isn't meant to be to markish or fan-boyish.

 

ECW just had a certain aura to it that wasn't, can't, nor will be duplicated.

 

Maybe he's referring to the 'renegade promotion' aspect of it.

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