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Guest Fishyswa

"He needs to spend more time in OVW...."

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With Vince in charge, you have to be a yes man. Do you think they want to lose their job because someone isn't ready? The core audience is leaving too, it's just at a really slow pace.

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Heidenreich wasn't even used in OVW in the first place. Cornette kept him off OVW TV because he knew that Heidenreich was woefully lacking in the talent department. WWE called him up regardless and way too soon. Heidenreich's lack of talent is not OVW's fault. Nor is it OVW's fault that WWE seem to have the tendency to saddle the OVW talents with gimmicks that are either going to damage their careers (Hassan) or gimmicks that hide their strengths and expose their flaws (Matt Morgan and pretty much everyone else). And yes WWE does tell OVW and Cornette to fuck off when he tells them they aren't ready. Shows what you know, eh Fishy?

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Heidenreich wasn't even used in OVW in the first place. Cornette kept him off OVW TV because he knew that Heidenreich was woefully lacking in the talent department. WWE called him up regardless and way too soon. Heidenreich's lack of talent is not OVW's fault. Nor is it OVW's fault that WWE seem to have the tendency to saddle the OVW talents with gimmicks that are either going to damage their careers (Hassan) or gimmicks that hide their strengths and expose their flaws (Matt Morgan and pretty much everyone else). And yes WWE does tell OVW and Cornette to fuck off when he tells them they aren't ready. Shows what you know, eh Fishy?

Heidenreich was used on OVW tv for a while, but he almost never wrestled, and was pretty much confined to doing run-ins and talking. Cornette never used Nathan Jones or Sylvan Grenier at all, in any fashion, because he knew they were terrible.

 

True story: a couple of years ago, WWE asked Cornette and Danny Davis to list all the talent in OVW from most ready to least ready. The last three on the list were Mark Jindrak, Orlando Jordan and Linda Miles. Guess who the next three to be called up were.

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Guest Fishyswa

"Very hard. Well, for one person at least."

 

You can shut the fuck up anytime now. Thanks.

 

"With Vince in charge, you have to be a yes man."

 

Vince is a business man, you don't put people in charge of something that important unless you have faith in thier ability. No way is he gonna completely disregard someone telling him the guy is gonna expose the business on TV. He must of had some kind of green light.

 

"Do you think they want to lose their job because someone isn't ready? The core audience is leaving too, it's just at a really slow pace."

 

Where did this mentality that Vince will fire anyone who disagree's with him come from? He uses Hulk Hogan all the time....

 

"Heidenreich wasn't even used in OVW in the first place. Cornette kept him off OVW TV because he knew that Heidenreich was woefully lacking in the talent department. WWE called him up regardless and way too soon. Heidenreich's lack of talent is not OVW's fault. Nor is it OVW's fault that WWE seem to have the tendency to saddle the OVW talents with gimmicks that are either going to damage their careers (Hassan) or gimmicks that hide their strengths and expose their flaws (Matt Morgan and pretty much everyone else). And yes WWE does tell OVW and Cornette to fuck off when he tells them they aren't ready. Shows what you know, eh Fishy?"

 

Sorry I had no idea you worked at OVW.

 

"True story: a couple of years ago, WWE asked Cornette and Danny Davis to list all the talent in OVW from most ready to least ready. The last three on the list were Mark Jindrak, Orlando Jordan and Linda Miles. Guess who the next three to be called up were."

 

Could that possibly have anything to do with the point I'm trying to make? Would it not be more beneficial to have these guys getting actual experience now? Try to come up with something other than a useless comment on someone elses post containing content.

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Guest
Vince is a business man, you don't put people in charge of something that important unless you have faith in thier ability. No way is he gonna completely disregard someone telling him the guy is gonna expose the business on TV. He must of had some kind of green light.

Vince does what he wants, when he wants. It's been seen so many times that I can't even point out specific examples.

Where did this mentality that Vince will fire anyone who disagree's with him come from? He uses Hulk Hogan all the time....

Clueless......

Sorry I had no idea you worked at OVW.

Observer.......read it.

Could that possibly have anything to do with the point I'm trying to make? Would it not be more beneficial to have these guys getting actual experience now? Try to come up with something other than a useless comment on someone elses post containing content.

It means that WWE doesn't give a damn about what Corny thinks. Sad to see that went straight over your head. How about you tell us what you do know? It would be so much easier and so much shorter.

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Guest Fishyswa

"Vince does what he wants, when he wants. It's been seen so many times that I can't even point out specific examples."

 

Well considering I don't know you well enough to just "take yer word for it" you probably should.

 

"Clueless......"

 

To? These unspoken reasons that are so abundant no one can recall one?

 

"Observer.......read it."

 

No thanks.

 

"It means that WWE doesn't give a damn about what Corny thinks. Sad to see that went straight over your head. How about you tell us what you do know? It would be so much easier and so much shorter."

 

Sorry but when talking about stuff I'm not sure of with people who aren't sure of it I figure basic logic and reasoning is the way to go. You've given no examples and have no firsthand accounts of anything, so what's going over my head? Air? I agree.

 

What I know on anything but what's being discussed is irrelevant to the discussion. That shouldn't go over anyone's head.

 

 

 

EDIT: HTQ, is adding nothing to the thread your gimmick or something?

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Sorry but when talking about stuff I'm not sure of with people who aren't sure of it I figure basic logic and reasoning is the way to go.

EDIT: HTQ, is adding nothing to the thread your gimmick or something?

You actually know how to use logic? Color me surprised.

 

Is your gimmick being totally and utterly clueless, or stupid?

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In regards to the Jindrak, Jordan, and Miles call ups....I'm fairly sure they called Miles up mostly due to Tough Enough and wanting to keep her sorta around on TV to justify the contract. With Jindrak, they may have figured since he'd been on TV with WCW (and frankly wasn't that bad there) that he might be more ready than advertised. Jordan however....I have no idea. I guess it was a favor to the Rock's dad?

 

Perhaps they use reverse psychology? As in they think Cornette intentionally downplays some guys to keep them down in OVW on his shows.

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"Yes, because it's sure worked for The Masterpiece, eh?"

Yeah, it has.

 

No it hasn't, because Masters isn't getting any heat what-so-ever. I'd even argue he's failing to get X-Pac heat most of the time. They're dead for the entrance, dead when he walks to the ring, comatose when he starts taunting them, back to being dead once he gets on the offense. The only time I can remember a half decent reaction to him was when a) The crowd wanted Shelton to escape the Masterlock and b) When Shawn Michaels was carrying his untalented hide these past few weeks. Neither down to his doing. So to say bringing him up early, before he's ready, to give him 'WWE experience' has WORKED? Far from it.

 

Getting 'WWE experience' can be done on house shows, in dark matches or on Heat and Velocity. That way, the minimum amount of people have to put up with no talent stiffs and the minimum amount of people turn off Raw because it's full of OVW guys who aren't ready.

 

Heels don't get over, they get disliked and hopefully hated. Getting over describes winning people over or manipulating them.

 

Wrong. Heels DO get over. Masters doesn't, because he HASN'T won anyone over and HASN'T manipulated anyone, except manipulated them into associating him with 'pissbreak time'.

 

Could that possibly have anything to do with the point I'm trying to make? Would it not be more beneficial to have these guys getting actual experience now?

 

No, because they suck. And when people on TV suck, people watching TV grab the remote and turn onto another channel.

 

What I know on anything but what's being discussed is irrelevant to the discussion. That shouldn't go over anyone's head.

 

I'm sorry, but that really did go over my head. Using indistinguishable grammar doesn't help your already fragile arguements.

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Guest Fishyswa

"No it hasn't, because Masters isn't getting any heat what-so-ever."

 

Yes, he most definitely is. If you actually want to contend the guy doesn't get reactions, just don't bother, because no one is gonna be responding to something that oblivious.

 

"I'd even argue he's failing to get X-Pac heat most of the time."

 

I wouldn't. Do tell me what Xpac heat is and how he's getting it. Oh and save the "it's when people boo because they really don't like you" bullshit, because it doesn't fly.

 

"They're dead for the entrance, dead when he walks to the ring, comatose when he starts taunting them, back to being dead once he gets on the offense."

 

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. But go ahead and prove me wrong with some audio and video. I'm sure by how convinced you are that you have this handy.

 

"The only time I can remember a half decent reaction to him was when a) The crowd wanted Shelton to escape the Masterlock and b) When Shawn Michaels was carrying his untalented hide these past few weeks."

 

Your talking about reactions for faces, and he was getting booed back when he was throwing Stevie around like a rag doll. Do you watch the show?

 

" So to say bringing him up early, before he's ready, to give him 'WWE experience' has WORKED? Far from it."

 

If the goal was for him to work as a heel, yes, because people boo him when he comes out. That's usually a good sign. But go ahead, I can't wait for this audio and video to prove me wrong.

 

"Getting 'WWE experience' can be done on house shows, in dark matches"

 

It's kind of hard to get TV experience when not on TV.

 

"or on Heat and Velocity."

 

Agreed, and they've all gone through there.

 

"That way, the minimum amount of people have to put up with no talent stiffs and the minimum amount of people turn off Raw because it's full of OVW guys who aren't ready."

 

Yeah but no one does that now. Show me an instance of any of those guys hurting ratings, even for a segment. PLEASE. They don't. People just say meh and don't care. They don't get angry, change the channel for the rest of the night and write a letter. If they did, we would already of seen some big changes.

 

"Wrong. Heels DO get over."

 

Sure, on faces. Those sneaky bastards.

 

"Masters doesn't, because he HASN'T won anyone over"

 

HE'S A FUCKING HEEL. Are some of you so fucking tainted by the Attitude Era that you can't even understand the most basic concept in all of wrestling, people are supposed to not like heels. You think if this guy gets a death threat he's done something wrong? If he's not selling enough t-shirts he's done something wrong? Wake the fuck up so I can actually discuss things with you in the real universe.

 

 

"and HASN'T manipulated anyone, except manipulated them into associating him with 'pissbreak time'."

 

God, that wasn't even clever.....

 

"No, because they suck. And when people on TV suck, people watching TV grab the remote and turn onto another channel."

 

So where are the numbers to back that up? I have a feeling I'm gonna be waiting a while for those.

 

"I'm sorry, but that really did go over my head. Using indistinguishable grammar doesn't help your already fragile arguements."

 

Yeah because you sure picked them apart. I wouldn't be suprised to see the ground go over your head...

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Guest Fishyswa

If you don't have anything to add to the debate, do me a favor and save us the updates on who's winning and losing. It comes off a little gang-bangy, and a little "I have nothing left to add but still need to get a word in".

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If you don't have anything to add to the debate, do me a favor and save us the updates on who's winning and losing. It comes off a little gang-bangy, and a little "I have nothing left to add but still need to get a word in".

 

And what exactly do YOU have to add to it besides misconceptions and clueless rantings?

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Guest Fishyswa

Everything I've posted in this thread. That should of been obvious to anyone who knows what misconceptions and clueless rantings actually mean.

 

But do tell what "give it up, you lost, get over it" adds to the thread? I'd love to hear it.

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Chris Masters is very much over. WWE has done a decent job of getting him over and even more, getting his "Master Lock" over. Although it was in typical WWE SHOVE fashion. It worked pretty well. He gets a small to decent amount of heat and the fans definantly react when the master lock is applied.

 

A poll taken at WWE.com before the master lock challenge with HBK. 45% said HBK wouldn't get out of the master lock. If he wasn't over, then why did 45% of the fans who took the poll vote that HBK couldn't get out of the master lock? That shows they've done a pretty good job of making the Master Lock look unbreakable.

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It gets you to shut up because the debate is going nowhere. You're not going to change your mind. You're just going to keep countering everyone's valid points with stupid comments that has very little to no bearing on the facts pertaining to the matter.

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Guest Fishyswa

"It gets you to shut up because the debate is going nowhere."

 

Yeah it obviously worked so well....

 

"You're not going to change your mind."

 

Correction, I'm not gonna change my mind just because someone says I should. When debating, you should usually only concede when there's reason to do so, and someone saying "you've lost" sure as hell isn't a reason.

 

"You're just going to keep countering everyone's valid points with stupid comments"

 

Examples, where have I done this, what makes the point valid. If you want to prove me wrong, than just do it, don't talk about it.

 

"that has very little to no bearing on the facts pertaining to the matter."

 

Examples? Anything to back up what you've said other than the sound of your own voice? NO. So do us all a favor and bring the content or shut the fuck up.

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Fine I will only pick apart one post of yours since I don't have the time to do every one of yours. After this, I'm going to pull out of this silly debate because as I've said, you lost and this debate really has no business continuing.

 

"No it hasn't, because Masters isn't getting any heat what-so-ever."

 

Yes, he most definitely is. If you actually want to contend the guy doesn't get reactions, just don't bother, because no one is gonna be responding to something that oblivious.

 

He gets reactions, but none are the kind he is trying to get. The following reactions he incurs are: Sits on hands, Change the channel, Stare at him blankly, weak boos due to him feuding with fan faves (too weak to be considered over).

 

"I'd even argue he's failing to get X-Pac heat most of the time."

 

I wouldn't. Do tell me what Xpac heat is and how he's getting it. Oh and save the "it's when people boo because they really don't like you" bullshit, because it doesn't fly.

 

You don't know what X-Pac heat? Ok I'll explain it. Once upon a time there was a man named Sean Waltman. He had returned to WWF after a stint with WCW. His name in the ring was "X-Pac". Following? Ok. Now initially X-Pac received favorable reactions as due mostly to his affliation to the new faction called DeGeneration X. Now when DX had disbanded, X-Pac tried a hand at a singles career. As time worn on and as X-Pac was featured in angles where he really had no business being part of (the feud with Jericho comes to mind), he started receiving reactions that were less favorable. The reactions continued to the point that people just hated X-Pac, and not in the good way. You want good heel heat? Look at Hunter's. That's the right kind of heel heat. And if you can't distinguish the differences between those reactions... well I dunno what to say.

 

"They're dead for the entrance, dead when he walks to the ring, comatose when he starts taunting them, back to being dead once he gets on the offense."

 

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. But go ahead and prove me wrong with some audio and video. I'm sure by how convinced you are that you have this handy.

 

Well how about YOU provide evidence of the person being wrong? All you've been telling us is "Prove it! Bah!" when you can't do the same yourself? Ok.

 

"The only time I can remember a half decent reaction to him was when a) The crowd wanted Shelton to escape the Masterlock and b) When Shawn Michaels was carrying his untalented hide these past few weeks."

 

Your talking about reactions for faces, and he was getting booed back when he was throwing Stevie around like a rag doll. Do you watch the show?

 

Hey you're onto something. Oh nah you're not. If the only reactions that Masters can get is because of the faces, then clearly that proves us right that he isn't over to get his OWN reactions, I would think.

 

" So to say bringing him up early, before he's ready, to give him 'WWE experience' has WORKED? Far from it."

 

If the goal was for him to work as a heel, yes, because people boo him when he comes out. That's usually a good sign. But go ahead, I can't wait for this audio and video to prove me wrong.

 

Once again, forcing other people to do things for you because you can't be bothered to do it yourself. And no, the goal wasn't simply to be a heel. It was for him to be among the top heels on Raw. Push-wise, goal accomplished. Overness-wise? FAILURE.

 

"Getting 'WWE experience' can be done on house shows, in dark matches"

 

It's kind of hard to get TV experience when not on TV.

 

There's a difference between WWE experience and TV experience. He says WWE experience and you say TV. Looks like you two are on totally different pages. His likely the right one.

 

"or on Heat and Velocity."

 

Agreed, and they've all gone through there.

 

Nothing to refute here. Moving on...

 

"That way, the minimum amount of people have to put up with no talent stiffs and the minimum amount of people turn off Raw because it's full of OVW guys who aren't ready."

 

Yeah but no one does that now. Show me an instance of any of those guys hurting ratings, even for a segment. PLEASE. They don't. People just say meh and don't care. They don't get angry, change the channel for the rest of the night and write a letter. If they did, we would already of seen some big changes.

 

Umm yeah I change the channel if Masters comes on. So I personally prove you wrong with that one.

 

"Wrong. Heels DO get over."

 

Sure, on faces. Those sneaky bastards.

 

Hunter, as much as people hate him, gets the right reactions for a heel. He is over correctly as a heel. Where are those "asshole" chants for Masters?

 

"Masters doesn't, because he HASN'T won anyone over"

 

HE'S A FUCKING HEEL. Are some of you so fucking tainted by the Attitude Era that you can't even understand the most basic concept in all of wrestling, people are supposed to not like heels. You think if this guy gets a death threat he's done something wrong? If he's not selling enough t-shirts he's done something wrong? Wake the fuck up so I can actually discuss things with you in the real universe.

 

People are not supposed to like heels, correct. They are, however, supposed to REACT to them. And not in the way of "Ohh ugh he's on. What's on ABC tonight?"

 

"and HASN'T manipulated anyone, except manipulated them into associating him with 'pissbreak time'."

 

God, that wasn't even clever.....

 

The man speaks the truth. Not very clever, no, but truth nonetheless.

 

"No, because they suck. And when people on TV suck, people watching TV grab the remote and turn onto another channel."

 

So where are the numbers to back that up? I have a feeling I'm gonna be waiting a while for those.

 

Once again.... making other people do the work? Ok see why you lost? In a debate you're supposed to do 50% of the work. If you're not willing to do that, the opponent won't either. Then it all becomes a repetitive debate shooting half-truths and outright false misconceptions out of your ass.

 

"I'm sorry, but that really did go over my head. Using indistinguishable grammar doesn't help your already fragile arguements."

 

Yeah because you sure picked them apart. I wouldn't be suprised to see the ground go over your head...

 

No comment.

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Reading quote-filled posts confuses me.

 

It was so bad in one thread a while back (either earlier this year or last year) that one poster said something along the lines of the quote box turning into a "monster" if it became any bigger.

 

BTW, Fishyswa trying to prove that Masters is "over" without needing help getting over is sad.

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The biggest problem Masters has is that they have done such a job getting the Master Lock over as a finisher that it's going to seriously backfire. Let's face it, hardly anyone in the upper card is going to sell a friggin full nelson. I can just see Michaels being approached about jobbing to the Master Lock: "You want me to go down to a full nelson? Are you out of your fucking minds?"

 

The simple fact is that after a certain level no one is going to job to the move. Sure it's fine when challenging people and having them sit down to apply the move, but I have yet to see Masters effectively do the move against very many guys in the context of a match. Know why? Cause it's a fucking FULL NELSON and no one is going to sell it or job to it.

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Guest Fishyswa

"He gets reactions, but none are the kind he is trying to get."

 

He get's booed, he's a heel, explain how a heel shouldn't tried to be booed.

 

"The following reactions he incurs are: Sits on hands, Change the channel, Stare at him blankly, weak boos due to him feuding with fan faves (too weak to be considered over)."

 

So I'm sure you have video, audio and numbers to back this up right? After all you've said I'm sure as hell not taking your word for anything. As far as I've seen people have been actively booing him.

 

"You don't know what X-Pac heat?"

 

No, I don't buy the concept. I think it's unsubstantiated bullshit.

 

"Ok I'll explain it. Once upon a time there was a man named Sean Waltman. He had returned to WWF after a stint with WCW. His name in the ring was "X-Pac". Following? Ok. Now initially X-Pac received favorable reactions as due mostly to his affliation to the new faction called DeGeneration X. Now when DX had disbanded, X-Pac tried a hand at a singles career. As time worn on and as X-Pac was featured in angles where he really had no business being part of (the feud with Jericho comes to mind), he started receiving reactions that were less favorable. The reactions continued to the point that people just hated X-Pac, and not in the good way."

 

What's a good way? That's not reacting to a face, if he's a heel and people don't like him, guess what, THEY'VE DONE THE JOB.

 

"You want good heel heat? Look at Hunter's. That's the right kind of heel heat. And if you can't distinguish the differences between those reactions... well I dunno what to say."

 

People have been crying all over this board about how he needed to be off TV, and that's gonna be the example? I agree it's a great example of some good heat, but at the same time it counters your point.

 

"Well how about YOU provide evidence of the person being wrong? All you've been telling us is "Prove it! Bah!" when you can't do the same yourself? Ok."

 

Because I'm not the one making exaggerated claims or assuming what people are doing without evidence. Get back to me when I am...

 

"Hey you're onto something. Oh nah you're not. If the only reactions that Masters can get is because of the faces, then clearly that proves us right that he isn't over to get his OWN reactions, I would think."

 

Yes, because we all know those unknown small guys are over HUGE. Doesn't have anything to do with people taking him as a bully in the ring.

 

"Once again, forcing other people to do things for you because you can't be bothered to do it yourself."

 

No, forcing people to do something because they make the claims. All you have to do to see I'm right is watch the guy when he comes out.

 

"And no, the goal wasn't simply to be a heel. It was for him to be among the top heels on Raw. Push-wise, goal accomplished. Overness-wise? FAILURE."

 

Being booed is being booed. If you get booed, you win. Does he need to be stabbed to justify his use?

 

"There's a difference between WWE experience and TV experience. He says WWE experience and you say TV. Looks like you two are on totally different pages. His likely the right one."

 

And what is the WWE? An internationally broadcast company reliant on a TV and PPV based business model. If there on two different pages then it's a big book with a lot of detail.

 

"Umm yeah I change the channel if Masters comes on. So I personally prove you wrong with that one."

 

How many rating points do you count for? I had no idea you were that important.

 

"Hunter, as much as people hate him, gets the right reactions for a heel. He is over correctly as a heel. Where are those "asshole" chants for Masters?"

 

So now he needs asshole chants before he's "over as a heel"? I had no idea they expanded the criteria...

 

"People are not supposed to like heels, correct. They are, however, supposed to REACT to them. And not in the way of "Ohh ugh he's on. What's on ABC tonight?""

 

You still haven't shown that anyone other than yourself does.

 

"The man speaks the truth. Not very clever, no, but truth nonetheless."

 

Yeah and you sure seem to know what true is....:lol:

 

"Once again.... making other people do the work?"

 

...to back up what THEY say. If you can't even concede the man get's booed, you better bring something legit to back it up, and I think the best you might be able to come up with is a broken tv.

 

"Ok see why you lost?"

 

It's hard to see why I've lost when I haven't lost, let alone when it's not something to be won or lost. Winning and losing are on two different sides, the point of a debate is to end up in the same place.

 

"In a debate you're supposed to do 50% of the work."

 

And I have, I've refrained from making any ridiculous claims and have backed up everything I said with logic and reason. Everything that's supposedly "countered" my arguement has yet to be backed up by anything other than the sound of a persons voice. It's not too hard to see.

 

"If you're not willing to do that, the opponent won't either."

 

Especially if he can't.

 

"Then it all becomes a repetitive debate shooting half-truths and outright false misconceptions out of your ass."

 

Looking back at your posts I can see how you'd assume that, but I've done this before.

 

"No comment."

 

...is a comment. Let's not be coy now, it doesn't work for you.

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"No it hasn't, because Masters isn't getting any heat what-so-ever."

 

Yes, he most definitely is. If you actually want to contend the guy doesn't get reactions, just don't bother, because no one is gonna be responding to something that oblivious.

 

So, in other words, "I don't agree with you so you are wrong". He gets no worthwhile heat, certainly not compared to his position on the card. It's not like I'm the only one who thinks so. Do you find it odd that there's at least four people who've argued against Masters' heat in this thread and you're the only one who thinks he's over. Maybe that should tell you something?

 

"I'd even argue he's failing to get X-Pac heat most of the time."

 

I wouldn't. Do tell me what Xpac heat is and how he's getting it. Oh and save the "it's when people boo because they really don't like you" bullshit, because it doesn't fly.

 

"X-Pac sucks". "Bossman sucks". If you think those are POSITIVE and if you even think of comparing them to "Angle sucks", you're obviously a lost cause. Well, even more than currently.

 

"They're dead for the entrance, dead when he walks to the ring, comatose when he starts taunting them, back to being dead once he gets on the offense."

 

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. But go ahead and prove me wrong with some audio and video. I'm sure by how convinced you are that you have this handy.

 

Okay...Raw two weeks ago, your starter for 10. Please point out an occassion where the crowd WAS hot for his entrance, like the heat machine you believe him to be.

 

"The only time I can remember a half decent reaction to him was when a) The crowd wanted Shelton to escape the Masterlock and b) When Shawn Michaels was carrying his untalented hide these past few weeks."

 

Your talking about reactions for faces, and he was getting booed back when he was throwing Stevie around like a rag doll. Do you watch the show?

 

Yes. I honestly don't remember any more than 5% of the audience booing him against Stevie.

 

" So to say bringing him up early, before he's ready, to give him 'WWE experience' has WORKED? Far from it."

 

If the goal was for him to work as a heel, yes, because people boo him when he comes out. That's usually a good sign. But go ahead, I can't wait for this audio and video to prove me wrong.

 

THEY DON'T!!! There's literally zero reaction to his posedown entrance. NONE!

 

"Getting 'WWE experience' can be done on house shows, in dark matches"

 

It's kind of hard to get TV experience when not on TV.

 

It's changed to TV experience now? Right, sorry, hard to keep up with you at times.

 

"or on Heat and Velocity."

 

Agreed, and they've all gone through there.

 

And came through too soon.

 

"That way, the minimum amount of people have to put up with no talent stiffs and the minimum amount of people turn off Raw because it's full of OVW guys who aren't ready."

 

Yeah but no one does that now. Show me an instance of any of those guys hurting ratings, even for a segment. PLEASE. They don't. People just say meh and don't care. They don't get angry, change the channel for the rest of the night and write a letter. If they did, we would already of seen some big changes.

 

So, I'm wrong without proof...but you need no proof whatsoever? Pretty lame, Fishyswa.

 

"Wrong. Heels DO get over."

 

Sure, on faces. Those sneaky bastards.

 

Uhm...what? Overness is people REACTING to you. Heel or face. Angle is over. Edge is over. The Heart-Throbs are not. Chris Masters is not. Not only faces can be over. If you're going to use technical terms, at least study and figure out what they actually mean, please.

 

"Masters doesn't, because he HASN'T won anyone over"

 

HE'S A FUCKING HEEL. Are some of you so fucking tainted by the Attitude Era that you can't even understand the most basic concept in all of wrestling, people are supposed to not like heels. You think if this guy gets a death threat he's done something wrong? If he's not selling enough t-shirts he's done something wrong? Wake the fuck up so I can actually discuss things with you in the real universe.

 

He hasn't won anyone over. Yes, heels are supposed to make people hate them. But they're supposed to do it by being a dick and making people buy tickets to see them get beaten within an inch of their life. See Copeland, Adam. Masters doesn't do that. The most basic concept in all of wrestling is...MAKE MONEY. Masters doesn't do that. Please learn to tell the difference. He's done nothing to make people hate him in the way that matters...financially. Masters getting a death threat? Are you that dillusional that you think people care that much about him? Christ almighty. Christian sells t-shirts, he's a good heel. Flair didn't sell t-shirts and was still a good heel.

 

"and HASN'T manipulated anyone, except manipulated them into associating him with 'pissbreak time'."

 

God, that wasn't even clever.....

 

Pot...kettle...black?

 

"No, because they suck. And when people on TV suck, people watching TV grab the remote and turn onto another channel."

 

So where are the numbers to back that up? I have a feeling I'm gonna be waiting a while for those.

 

Well, unless I spend my time digging up a bunch of numbers you'll only ignore, I'm wrong. And when I do, I'll still be wrong. Where's the proof this magnificent heat magnet DRAWS ratings?

 

"I'm sorry, but that really did go over my head. Using indistinguishable grammar doesn't help your already fragile arguements."

 

Yeah because you sure picked them apart. I wouldn't be suprised to see the ground go over your head...

 

And I'm the one without clever insults?

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Guest Fishyswa

"BTW, Fishyswa trying to prove that Masters is "over" without needing help getting over is sad."

 

That seems silly considering my whole point is he's NOT over.

 

 

And I don't see the problem with the full nelson. It's a submission, it really does hurt, and as long as both people make it look good what's the problem? Anyone complaining about a Hansen lariat ending a match despite how standard a move it is?

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