Angle's face run cut short-why?

[Guest Dangerous A]

Why do you think Angle's face run was cut short this last fall? I was interested in hearing from members of the AWO on this one.

 

Do you think it was because of his facing Shane McMahon first thing after winning the title and having to sell and bump for him like he was Shawn Michaels?

 

Perhaps when Angle did the skit where he was wearing that stupid helmet during the Undertaker scene where he was his partner?

 

Or was it just that the fans love to hate him and WWF(E) felt they should play to the man's strengths?

 

Maybe just a victim of bad writing and illogical booking?

 

I ask this cause personally I and a lot of my casual fans were behind Angle's face run and felt it was strange and a rough transition from where he turned face to heel.

 

I await your response, AWO.

[Guest Anglesault]

Do you think it was because of his facing Shane McMahon first thing after winning the title and having to sell and bump for him like he was Shawn Michaels?

 

I was FUMING when that happened.

 

Or was it just that the fans love to hate him and WWF(E) felt they should play to the man's strengths?

 

Pretty much. Some fans got behind him, but after 9/11 he looked like he was exploiting what happened.

 

Maybe just a victim of bad writing and illogical booking?

 

He had a AWFUL run as champion that made him look Horrible. He lost twice, got destroyed three times and only beat Booker and Shane.

 

I think giving him the US title was the nail in the coffin, though.

[Guest Steve J. Rogers]

While not a member of the AwO but I am an Angle fan, and think there are several reasons:

 

1.  Angle was just not taken seriously as a face by the fans who much perfered to chanting "You Suck!" and enjoyed laughing at Angle's continuing embarrasment.

 

2.  See above because Angle turned more serious, as a heel Angle never was that much over when he'd take one of his serious turns, no way for the fans to laugh or react when Angle was trying to do Benoit's or HHH's "INTENSE~" act

 

3.  Many feel Angle was hotshotted the title for the express purpose of capitilizing on heightened patriotism after 9/11 so basically they were stuck without a clear way of keeping Angle a viable face character once he lost the title

 

4.  Austin was still getting face heat when they had the feud so marks would rather have seen Angle's as Austin's bitch

 

5.  Sort of like reason 3, but Angle's milk drinking, dorky, goody two shoes, "frickin' great" character just doesn't work as a face anymore so that part of Angle's character should really be more of a heelish "parody" type rather than being part of a face character.

 

Steve

[Guest Anglesault]

3.  Many feel Angle was hotshotted the title for the express purpose of capitilizing on heightened patriotism after 9/11 so basically they were stuck without a clear way of keeping Angle a viable face character once he lost the title

 

I don't think so. All signs pointed to Angle winning before 9/11. The Summerslam loss, the 9/10 attack on Angle, the long ass Austin title run...

[Guest Brian]

It looked like they were going to give Angle the title prior to that, but I would have had Austin hold the title until he dropped it to Rock.

[Guest Anglesault]

Losing two PPV title matches  in a row would have killed Angle.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I've always beleived that the fact that he had a 2 week title reign...during which they obviously had no plan for him...proves that he only got the title because of 9-11.

 

I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do...

 

Fans want the face who represents the US to go over 10 days after the attack...so I have no problem with them putting him over and giving fans what they want...

 

I mean ...hell...the WWF created a whole angle with Sgt. Slaughter to get the Hogan main event at Mania to capitalize on patriotism over the gulf war...

 

...this one just fell into their laps.

 

I didn't beleive leading up to the match that Angle was going to win...it just wasn't set up that way.

 

The storyline going in was that Austin couldn't beat Angle 1 on 1.  So proving that right is a terrible decision when the guy in question is your top guy.  Its not like this is HHH dicking over Jericho...

 

And the only thing the Alliance had going for it was the control over the WWF title...so they lose the belt for 2 weeks for no reason...to a guy who jobs to everyone and there mother in those 2 weeks?

 

Sorry...no.

 

Oh...and it WAS in his hometown...but that only reconfirms my beleif that he was going to lose.  He already won a world title (vs. Booker T) in his hometown just a few months earlier...I don't think they would do it twice...especially when it has become so obvious that they have had no intention of having him be a top player since then.

 

 

Again...I'm not saying it was wrong to give Angle the title...but the fact that the buildup was all wrong and they had nothing for him to do seems to indicate that 9-11 was the catalyst.

[Guest Anglesault]

The storyline going in was that Austin couldn't beat Angle 1 on 1.  So proving that right is a terrible decision when the guy in question is your top guy.  Its not like this is HHH dicking over Jericho...

 

But Angle not being able to beat Austin two shows in row after a three month build up would kill someone who could possibly be the successor to Austin's throne.

[Guest Steve J. Rogers]

I don't think so. All signs pointed to Angle winning before 9/11. The Summerslam loss, the 9/10 attack on Angle, the long ass Austin title run...

 

I agree, but most marks/causual fans probably don't pick up on stuff like that and probably saw the Angle win as the WWF trying to "cash in on the patriotism"  

 

So can we blame Osama for ruining Kurt Angle's career? =;P

 

But seriously though, also Kurt's first run as champ was equally underwhelming so that may be part of the reason for the apathy from fans towards a champion Angle.  I mean the guy proved that he COULD NOT beat the likes of Rock, Austin, Triple H and Undertaker without some form of a screwjob or fluke so now the fans are suppossed to see Angle win over Austin cleanly just because Austin is now a heel and Angle is a face.

 

BTW Jericho will be a good test to that theory when he turns face again.  As a face he was pushed as a guy that could go with the main eventers and was a credible threat, but as a heel its like he can't beat Mark Henry without the use of a chair shot, so can he regain his believability as a credible ME/Upper Mid Card performer

 

 

Steve

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

But its not like he got pinned the first time...

 

He lost because of shady reffing and a DQ.

 

Angle totally looked like he got screwed and thats how they played it up.

 

How many times does someone go from getting screwed to winning the rematch?

 

Jericho/HHH comes to mind...and the fact that the WWF belt being in the alliance was so inportant at the time comes to mind also.

 

Plus...2 weeks of nothing to do.

[Guest Brian]

I always though that the fact that it was in his hometown and they almost set it up perfect for him to go over was enough. I think 9/11 plus the fact that he began to bomb, in terms of heat, made the WWF panic, take the title off him, and put RVD in the main event of No Mercy. Otherwise, they probably would have gone Austin/Angle again but the booking team panicked.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I always thought the opposite Brian.

 

Austin vs. RVD was what every show seemed to be building towards..then Foley walked down and said Austin vs. Angle vs. RVD...

 

...and I scratched my head.

[Guest Anglesault]

But its not like he got pinned the first time...

 

But he couldn't pin him. If they weren't planning on giving him the title, they wouldn't have made the rematch the next month.

 

How many times does someone go from getting screwed to winning the rematch?

 

How many times is there a rematch?

 

Plus...2 weeks of nothing to do.

 

That was because the fans farted on the win. I still don't know why he couldn't look credible going into the Austin rematch, though. Even as an RVD fan, you have to admit, RVD shouldn't have pinned the face WWF champ during his reign, especially if you know it's ending soon in the biggest match ever~!

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

He COULD pin him but Nick Patrick DQd him instead...thus he got screwed.

[Guest Brian]

What I always thought was that they were building that match for Survivor Series before they decided to kill the Alliance. I also thought that they were going to give Austin the title back at No Mercy one-on-one because they were just running an experiment with Angle.

[Guest Anglesault]

He COULD pin him but Nick Patrick DQd him instead...thus he got screwed.

And if he wasn't getting the title, that would have been the end of it...

 

Same thing happened at D-Generation-X with Michaels and Shamrock. Shamrock wasn't getting the belt, so the feud ended.

[Guest]

I heard that the Regal finish they did on the 10/8 Raw was going to be the finish for the Unforgiven match before 9/11 happened, though earlier I had also heard that they put the WCW title on him in July in Pittsburgh was to see the reaction he could get (And getting face heat after being layed out at Invasion and the Raw before) at home. Which is right, I don't know. They both seem like they could be accurate, but they kinda contradict eachother.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

How would that be the end of it?

 

The SS match completely set up a rematch.

 

But the SS match also made Austin look cowardly and beatable.

 

All of the spin leading up to Unforgiven was that Austin couldn't beat Angle.

 

Carrying through and putting Angle over never seemed like the choice to me.  In effect you would have built one guy up as being a loser...proven it...and then done nothing with the new champion?

 

It doesnt add up.

[Guest Anglesault]

But if you have Angle chase Austin for three months, lose questionabally at Summerslam and lose at Unforgiven, you've built up a Choker label for him.

 

I think that they did nothing because the reaction AFTER the title win was poor. In fact, I think that the reaction between 9/11 and Unforgiven was poor, but they weren't going to have him lose at Unforgiven after 9/11.

 

I feel that the original plan was for him to win, than the weak reaction made them think again, but 9/11 guaranteed a win for Angle.

[Guest treble charged]

Angle's reign bombed since Austin wasn't there.  If you remember, the 2 weeks after Angle won, Austin didn't show up, and the shows sucked major ass.  People wanted to see him, and if they couldn't see him, then they weren't happy, plain and simple.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

But no one saw him as a choker at SS.

 

You are the oly one who thinks that.

 

Angle came out of that match looking super strong and unbeatable.

 

Which is the point...unbeatable people shouldn't then win.

 

Only HHH whould do that.

[Guest]

I heard they initially turned him face and had him win the title to help sales of his It's True It's True book.  The 9/11 extra wave of patriotism just kind of fell into their laps.

[Guest godthedog]

it seems to me that angle got stuck with the choker label anyway.  even when he did win the title it was in a screwy way, then he lost it 2 weeks later.  and in the following months austin basically made angle his bitch, getting 2 squeaky clean wins over him (one of which made austin look like superman, kicking out of absolutely everything).  a better route would've been to let angle win CLEANLY at unforgiven & let austin try for a couple months to get the title back while letting angle defend it against different people.  that way angle would retain at least some credibility, cause no matter how many people beat him (i.e., edge), he'd still have a clean win over austin (and only one other person i know of has that).

 

i think it was a planned short reign from the start, cause after angle won the title they didn't do shit with him.   he just farted around & waited for austin to beat him again.

[Guest MrDanger]

The original plan was definitely for William Regal to cost Angle the title at Unforgiven.

 

Unfortunately they thought they's capitalise on wave of patriotism brought on by Sept 11 and put the strap onto Angle a month earlier than planned. Of course that meant they had no set plans for Angle as champ and he just drifted aimlessly, just bad booking I'm afraid.

[Guest]

My reasoning is simple. I love Angle the heel, but I hated Angle the face. Angle's face run was far too close to the old Hogan/Luger USA face runs, and I didnt like those either. I know 9/11 was a big reason for that, but it just made Kurt into a 1988 face, and that was bound to fail.

[Guest bcu1979]

3.  Many feel Angle was hotshotted the title for the express purpose of capitilizing on heightened patriotism after 9/11 so basically they were stuck without a clear way of keeping Angle a viable face character once he lost the title

 

I don't think so. All signs pointed to Angle winning before 9/11. The Summerslam loss, the 9/10 attack on Angle, the long ass Austin title run...

According to the Observer, the plan to put the title on Angle was made only after 9/11 and they went back and forth on the finish. I'm going by memory here but I think this is fairly accurate.

 

The original plan was for Austin to retain the title after Regal turned on Angle. (Which of course happened two weeks later instead.) The plan for No Mercy was then to be a submission match with Angle v. Austin and Rock v. Jericho for the WCW belt. Austin was supposed to win  the submission match as well.

 

The Survivor Series main events (before they decided to kill the Alliance angle) were supposed to be Austin v. RVD and Jericho v. Rock in a rematch.

[Guest Anglesault]

Austin was supposed to beat Angle three shows in a row? WTF did Angle piss off?

[Guest caboose]

Austin was supposed to beat Angle three shows in a row? WTF did Angle piss off?

Triple H found out Angle used tongue in his kiss with Steph from August 2000, and from his wheelchair, Triple H told Steph to bury Angle.

[Guest Anglesault]

That seems feasible

[Guest]

Angle's reign bombed since Austin wasn't there.  If you remember, the 2 weeks after Angle won, Austin didn't show up, and the shows sucked major ass.  People wanted to see him, and if they couldn't see him, then they weren't happy, plain and simple.

Hmmm, Austin takes off after jobbing the title, then comes back 2/3 weeks later to win it? An other power play? Nah, Not Austin. I'm probably just looking into it too much.

 

Anyway, I know this was before 911 and Angle's title win, but all those lame segments with Angle kidnapping Austin and making Austin "cry" didn't help. I don't believe anyone bought into that crap.

 

Also, A few people said they hated Angle's {{{INTENSE}}} heel runs and his "strong" never say Die babyface character. But, if I remember right, I read Angle was asking for those runs from Vince and company. He was sick of playing the coward/funny characters. He wanted to play the "tough" guy.