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Тhe way I see it Rhino winning the belt even for a short reign is a good thing.

 

At BFG what did the whole gauntlet accomplish? It put over the fact that everybody wants the title, it made the belt seem important. Then Rhino in a super-human effort won 3 matches and the belt. Now, I`m staying at home and thinking Rhino is a tough bastard for doing that and I`m happy the PPV ended on a good note.

 

Fastforward to the special. Rhino was a last minute decision, he wasnt supposed to get the belt. I remember Tenay saying on WOL that TNA had the next several months booked out and having Rhino as the champ certainly screws up those plans. By having Jarrett beat him (not cleanly mind you, so Rhino isn`t exactly buried and besides he`s not a former world champ and that brings some credibility to the guy) on the Special that would make the special seem important - when is the last time the WWE Title or the World Title changed hands on free television? By having title change the show would feel important. I`m guessing from the special forward we`ll get a several month reign of Jarrett until he drops to Monty which seems to be the long-term plan. At this point, like it or not, Jarrett needs the belt. You can`t be trying to extablish this top stable without it`s leader being the champ just like it would have been stupid not to have Ric Flair as the champ during the time of the Horsemen in the 80s. Not having the belt makes the stable look just as your next stable and not the TOP stable.

 

Well, at least that`s my opinion.

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Guest Fishyswa

It's the wrong move because it's the same lame formula WWE uses to overbook it's ME's.

 

I just don't see how people can still be making excuses for this company. Why would anyone logically believe Jarret would ever be out of the main event scene when he's been there the entire time the company's existed? This whole "oh there just building to this, or that" crap doesn't fly when no matter what they build to it all leads back to the title on Jarret.

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I think TNA's thinking was that to a casual fan, if JJ beat Rhino at BFG it would make one think, "Dammit, Nash woulda kicked his ass and taken the title! I'm never getting a TNA ppv again!"

 

This way, JJ was defeated for the title so it makes the paying audience feel that they weren't cheated with a typical WWE-style bait and switch on ppv.

 

I don't agree with giving it right back to JJ so soon, but I'm not much of a TNA loyalist anyway. I enjoy it, but don't find it to be must-see tv.

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For TNA to make any dent in WWE they have to be notably better for a seriously long stretch of time. When you go around putting the title on Rhino and then giving Jarrett his fifth title run it doesn't exactly scream out "This company is so much better than WWE!"

 

TNA needs a flukishly great storyline like the NWO, some sort of really notable "Stand up and take notice" type storyline. Having a lot of generic, bland cruiser guys going out and busting it out is fun for hardcore smart fans, but is it really going to drastically increase ratings on its own? Not really.

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Guest SavageRulz

What is the fucking point in having Rhyno win the belt on PPV, and then lose it like that? Just don't fucking bother with him winning it in the first place. This is ludicrous. Jarrett's an average as hell bland competent yet nothing more these days sort of worker who's worse than HHH is for the WWE. I swear, every time they have a big show coming up for some reason they think the only thing they can do to produce anythin worthwhile is to have the sodding title belt change hands again, and usually back around that idiot's waist.

 

Do they not realise those "fuck you Jarrett" chants and booing aren't a case of him doing a great job as a heel. It's the crowd telling them it's bullshit.

 

TNA's booking = shit

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I've said this before, but not on TSM: Rhino just filled the Ronnie Garvin role.

 

TNA needed someone that was willing to have a wicked short run as champ. It'd be stupid to waste the first title win for Joe, Brown, Daniels or Abyss in that situation and it'd be counterproductive for Styles, Raven or Killings to have another run only for it to end in a week. So TNA needed to find someone to win the belt only to lose it pretty much immediately. And evidently Rhino was willing to fill that role.

 

Was it stupid for them to hotshot the belt so quickly? Yes. But in my opinion, it'd have been even more stupid to have Jarrett keep the belt at the PPV.

 

Just my $0.02

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Guest Fishyswa

How? How is it better for Rhino to go through all that and then lose to the same typical shit we see in the WWE ALL THE TIME, days later? If he wasn't a good choice, he should of never had the belt in the first place. This "he goes through all that and over comes the odds to win" negated by over-booking on the next show is just stupid, horrible booking. He can over-come practically the entire roster, but Jarret and his cronies are no match? It's just not logical.

 

It's not even the fact that Jarret has the title again, that's expected, if you don't think he's gonna go for Flair's record, you're silly. It's just that if this is the best booking they could come up with, I don't see how anyone can call this an alternative to the WWE.

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Fuckin TNA - I figured they were gonna give Jarrett the belt back but was hoping for a moment of clarity from them when they see Rhino actually could carry the company quite alright until Brown gets the title from him (say, in January) in what could be a kick ass feud. Guess not. Instead I imagine we get a Raven/Jarrett feud after Genesis (probably at Turning Point) and that would build to Brown finally getting his shot at probably Final Resolution. Or else they could just not waste any time and have Brown/Jarrett at Turning Point. Anyway you slice it here, I feel like Raven, once again, is being left out in the cold one way or another. Jarrett NEEDS to put him over, period.

 

Maybe the best idea at this point is just finally going with Brown v. Jarrett at Turning Point, Raven slowly gets back into the picture from now until then, hassling Jarrett left and right. Brown then wins the title at Turning Point with help from Raven, furthering the heat between Raven/Jarrett and then at Final Resolution you have Brown/Raven/Jarrett as the main event where Brown goes over again, more cleanly on Jarrett. The aftermath of that ppv would then lead to two hot programs in Jarrett/Raven and Rhino/Brown. Ideally from there you build those programs so long term that you can go with Raven/Brown as your next title program set for around late Spring/early summer. Both of those feuds could have enough heat at that point that they could last that long.

 

The rest of the show(s) sounds solid though. Looks like Joe/Daniels at Genesis likely.

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I like that idea, as its a LONG TERM PLAN. That's what TNA has always lacked.

 

I'd start building Raven/Jarrett now, and have Raven win at TP. Then Monty can start a fued with JJ, go over him, and win the title at Lockdown.

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Rhino needed the short reign. Any reign.

 

Abyss & Monty Brown are monsters. That get's them over. They have charisma too.

 

AJ Styles... speaks for himself.

 

Christopher Daniels... his skills speak for him. Plus he's great on the mic.

 

Jeff Hardy... not good in the ring really, but does have charisma somewhat and the girls love him.

 

Rhino is only decent in the ring, probably not great on the mic, and doesn't have much charisma. This title reign gives him credibility that everyone already has, it makes him OVER.

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Guest Coffey

It just seems silly that Rhino, in one night, can win the Hardcore match, win the Battle Royal, win an interference laden main event for the belt and then just lose to a normal Jarrett run-in. I mean, he won under the same circumstances AFTER a hardcore match and a battle royal just a week before!

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It just seems silly that Rhino, in one night, can win the Hardcore match, win the Battle Royal, win an interference laden main event for the belt and then just lose to a normal Jarrett run-in. I mean, he won under the same circumstances AFTER a hardcore match and a battle royal just a week before!

 

I agree with this, I think Rhino should have beat Jarrett with help from Team 3-D. Yes people on this board would bitch about Jarrett not putting Rhino over clean, but anyone beating Rhino in any fashion doesn't make sense after everything he did at the PPV.

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I like that idea, as its a LONG TERM PLAN.  That's what TNA has always lacked.

 

I'd start building Raven/Jarrett now, and have Raven win at TP.  Then Monty can start a fued with JJ, go over him, and win the title at Lockdown.

 

Well, the reason the title is back on Jarrett is because of TNA's long term plan.

I'd agree with you before but, since Spike TV, I see TNA finally has a direction and it doesn't differ much from everyone's armchair booking. Jarrett / AMW run wild for a while then it's Monty's time. Raven, Rhino and Team 3D are also involved.

Maybe I'm defending it so much because I like that it involves many characters instead of the WWE 1 on 1 title feud of the month (i.e. Cena and Angle right now)

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If Rhino had been built up to world title contender level on t.v, then it would have been ok. But as it is, the average person who was just introduced to TNA will see them as minor league, since Rhino was in a grand total of what 4 singles matches on ppv in as many years in WWE? and hes somehow good enough to win the belt in TNA.

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Guest Coffey

Goddamn I'm getting tired of hearing that argument. Nobody said that shit when Taz, Dreamer, RVD & The Dudleyz left ECW for WWF. Nobody said that shit when Mysterio, Psicosis, etc. went from ECW to WCW. Nobody said that shit when Hall & Nash went to WCW.

 

What Rhino did in WWE means dick all to what he can do in TNA.

 

Try reading the threads. Everyone is just repeating the same shit someone else already said!

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C'mon for the first time since 2001 a wrestling heavyweight title has changed hands on national television. TNA was stuck without a main event 24 hours before their 'biggest ppv' and in a day put on a great show, with a good ending.

 

Logically Nash would have lost at Bound for Glory, had the rematch at the 2 hour special and still lost.

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What Rhino did in WWE means dick all to what he can do in TNA.

 

The argument above yours was to what Rhyno hasn't done in TNA to be considered a threat. If a casual fan turned on Impact, even on their debut show, there's nothing that warrants Rhyno any consideration of being a real threat. Therefore, you're going to rely on his ECW work (which was four years ago) or his WWE work, which was absolutely terrible following his return from neck surgery.

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Goddamn I'm getting tired of hearing that argument. Nobody said that shit when Taz, Dreamer, RVD & The Dudleyz left ECW for WWF. Nobody said that shit when Mysterio, Psicosis, etc. went from ECW to WCW. Nobody said that shit when Hall & Nash went to WCW.

 

What Rhino did in WWE means dick all to what he can do in TNA.

 

Try reading the threads. Everyone is just repeating the same shit someone else already said!

 

 

But none of those ECW wrestlers had been made to look like chumps on a national stage, same for Rey and Psicosis. Hall and Nash had been booked as stars in the WWF.

 

Of course most of the new fans TNA have picked up will be much more familiar with Rhyno, then any homegrown talent. And his WWE tenure will have an effect on how hes viewed.

 

Thats why Samoa Joe or Monty Brown will be MUCH more effective in the role of unstoppable monster heel now.

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Guest Fishyswa

"What Rhino did in WWE means dick all to what he can do in TNA."

 

Only it does. TNA is going for the NA wrestling audience. WWE has been the only show in town for that audience for 4-5 years now. They will recognize him from WWE, they will put two and two together.

 

When Hall+Nash went to WCW, it was hot, they were both considered top tier guys, and they actually made something out of it.

 

When the Radicalz and Jericho went to the WWE, we were still in the middle of the monday night wars, so there was no credibility gap. If a guy was credible in WCW's ME he'll be credible in WWE's ME. We don't have that any more. Jarret is not a credible main eventer by WWE's standards, same goes for Raven and Rhino, because last time the audience saw them, they were floating around on the bottom of the card, and to the average NA wrestling fan, it had nothing to do with being "underutilized".

 

When they see those same guys main eventing another fed, how can they not think it's at a lower level? TNA can't just pull an audience out of there ass, there is no large market of internet fans just waiting for something good, and if they want to be able to compete and draw people away from the WWE, they have to go after WWE's fanbase.

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I wrote this for another forum but it fits the discussion so...

 

Actually I for one approve of TNA`s decision to give the belt to Rhino and to have him drop it to Jarrett on the Special. Sure the decision does it have its flaws but the positives are definately more than the negatives. Here`s some reasons why I approve the decision:

 

= Rhino was NEVER supposed to win and he isn`t a priority for TNA. He`s just an upper-midcared who won the belt only because TNA wanted to make up for Nash not being there by giving the fans a title change that was unexpected. Now, Rhino is more legitimate seen as how he`s a former World Champion and he didn`t lose the belt cleanly on the Special. So it`s not like TNA was gonna build the company around Rhino and plus Rhino isn`t exaclty buried here. He`s still in the fricking main event of the next ppv!

 

= When is the last time a WORLD title changed hands on free tv? 2001!!! Having a title change on the Special makes it important and makes TNA seem more like an unpredictable show.

 

= You can`t build a TOP heel stable without it`s leader holding the belt. That`s why Hogan held it with the NWO, Flair with the Horsemen, HHH with Evolution, etc. Right now the belt is a must have for Jarrett. And besides why would TNA drop all of their plans by keeping Rhino as champ? Now they`re back to the original plan of having a slow buildup for Monty winning the belt by him going through TNA`s biggest mainstream names (sadly Hardy, Jarrett and probably somebody else).

 

= By reading the report it looks like Jarrett`s going to be getting even more heel heat from now on. Now that comes across great on tv especially in an age where lots of heels are cheered. Jarrett would comes across as the most hated guy on the planet!

 

The only real argument that I can accept is that Jarrett is winning the title way too much with which I think everybody would agree. However, that statement comes from the perspective of a long-time TNA fan. Right now, TNA has a whole new audience that isn`t fed up with Jarrett as champ so I don`t see where the problem is. Normally I would be against Jarrett as champ but in this case it all makes sense to me. Like it or not Jarrett is one of TNA`s biggest names and it makes sense to have the belt on him at this point. Would you prefered it if Hardy had the belt? Come on!

 

Other than that the TNA Special sounds AWESOME! I`m definately watching!

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Guest Fishyswa

"= Rhino was NEVER supposed to win and he isn`t a priority for TNA. He`s just an upper-midcared who won the belt only because TNA wanted to make up for Nash not being there by giving the fans a title change that was unexpected. Now, Rhino is more legitimate seen as how he`s a former World Champion and he didn`t lose the belt cleanly on the Special. So it`s not like TNA was gonna build the company around Rhino and plus Rhino isn`t exaclty buried here. He`s still in the fricking main event of the next ppv!"

 

Everything he gained from the PPV was completely negated on the special. How can a guy overcome half the roster but not 3 guys, even though he did just that less than a week ago? It was stupid booking, and it did more to make Rhino look like a fluke than a credible contender.

 

"= You can`t build a TOP heel stable without it`s leader holding the belt. That`s why Hogan held it with the NWO, Flair with the Horsemen, HHH with Evolution, etc. Right now the belt is a must have for Jarrett."

 

That's a lame excuse, by that logic he could just as easily chase. The point of a heel stable is to build a counter face stable that gets over on that heel stable. It's not to run with a heel champ.

 

"And besides why would TNA drop all of their plans by keeping Rhino as champ? Now they`re back to the original plan of having a slow buildup for Monty winning the belt by him going through TNA`s biggest mainstream names (sadly Hardy, Jarrett and probably somebody else)."

 

Only none of us really know TNA's plans, we know what they hint at and what they're likely to do. For all we know the long term plan is a Jarret face run in 06. There's no excuse for uselessly toying with one of your biggests names credibility.

 

"= When is the last time a WORLD title changed hands on free tv? 2001!!! Having a title change on the Special makes it important and makes TNA seem more like an unpredictable show."

 

Not like that, people like clean decisive title wins, we get that bullshit every week on Raw, if TNA is gonna be an alternative, they can't be doing it too. There's a fine line between unpredictable and stupid.

 

"= By reading the report it looks like Jarrett`s going to be getting even more heel heat from now on. Now that comes across great on tv especially in an age where lots of heels are cheered. Jarrett would comes across as the most hated guy on the planet!"

 

Heel heat is easy to get, it means nothing. You could have Raven go out there and work the stick for 5 minutes, he'd be the biggest heel in the company. You just have to make people not like you. Which is why TNA needs to focus on building up faces, workers that people can get behind, workers that sell a lot of merch, workers that can logically be at autograph signings. It's so much more work to get people behind someone than it is to put people against them. TNA is more focused on "shock!!!!" than having stars to market, and that's a problem.

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Everything he gained from the PPV was completely negated on the special. How can a guy overcome half the roster but not 3 guys, even though he did just that less than a week ago? It was stupid booking, and it did more to make Rhino look like a fluke than a credible contender.

 

Тhat I can understand. However, Rhino being a former champ certainly sounds more respectable, short reign or not. And again, even though he did overcome the odds at the PPV and couldn`t at the Special that doesn`t exactly mean that he`s now buried or anything. He got cheated out of the belt. He had an off night, whatever :). He`s still not a chump for losing after all the interference.

 

 

That's a lame excuse, by that logic he could just as easily chase. The point of a heel stable is to build a counter face stable that gets over on that heel stable. It's not to run with a heel champ...

 

Well yeh, TNA is indeed building that counter face stable (3D/Rhino/3LK and soon Monty I guess) but in order to do that the heels should look as strong as possible. Them having the belts certainly helps their cause a lot. Just you basic wrestling psychology here - heel heat, heel heat, heel heat and then the faces win. Simple yet effective.

 

Only none of us really know TNA's plans, we know what they hint at and what they're likely to do. For all we know the long term plan is a Jarret face run in 06. There's no excuse for uselessly toying with one of your biggests names credibility..

 

You`re right - we don`t know for certain what TNA`s plans are. If they don`t include some up-and-coming star winning the belt off Jarrett after a long-term storyline I`ll be the first one to blast TNA for that decision. Looking at things it looks pretty obvious to me they`re building Jarrett vs Monty. Let`s hope I`m right ;).

 

Not like that, people like clean decisive title wins, we get that bullshit every week on Raw, if TNA is gonna be an alternative, they can't be doing it too. There's a fine line between unpredictable and stupid.

 

Agreed to some extent. However, a title change is a title change, even if it`s done in a "repetitive" way. Certainly you must agree that a World title changing hands on free tv is a RARE thing to see nowdays.

 

Heel heat is easy to get, it means nothing. You could have Raven go out there and work the stick for 5 minutes, he'd be the biggest heel in the company. You just have to make people not like you. Which is why TNA needs to focus on building up faces, workers that people can get behind, workers that sell a lot of merch, workers that can logically be at autograph signings. It's so much more work to get people behind someone than it is to put people against them. TNA is more focused on "shock!!!!" than having stars to market, and that's a problem.

 

While heel heat is somewhat easy to get you cannot deny the fact that Jarrett gets MAJOR heel heat, actually I believe he`s the only one in TNA that does that (well and his associates get some too). That certainly adds to overall feel of the show and Jarrett`s character. Yes, I do agree that TNA needs to build some credible faces but that sort of thing takes time. If nobody cares about your heels why would they cheer the faces who kick the heel`s ass? To me, a wrestling company should first have the villains the people hate and then the heroes appear and save the day. And yes, TNA is somewhat focused on "shock" but they are building up stars too. Stars take time to develop you know, it won`t happen overnight.

 

Again, all of that is just my opinion :).

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Guest Fishyswa

"Тhat I can understand. However, Rhino being a former champ certainly sounds more respectable, short reign or not. And again, even though he did overcome the odds at the PPV and couldn`t at the Special doesn`t exactly mean that he`s now buried or anything. He got cheated out of the belt. He had an off night, whatever :). He`s still not a chump for losing after all the interference."

 

But what does that do for anyone else? Do people look at Flair and think he's gonna win just because he's had a belt 16 times? No, there are other factors to conside, how they won them, how they lost them, how good they are now. How can Rhino be good enough to get through all of that and yet not withstand textbook WWE style interference? It just doesn't make sense. Even if they run with "he was injured at the PPV" it will still come off as a poor excuse.

 

"Well yeh, TNA is indeed building that counter face stable (3D/Rhino/3LK and soon Monty I guess) but in order to do that the heels should look as strong as possible."

 

Not stronger than those faces.

 

"Them having the belts certainly helps their cause a lot. Just you basic wrestling psychology here - heel heat, heel heat, heel heat and then the faces win. Simple yet effective."

 

We've gotten nothing but heel heat for years now, come on. They should of been doing nothing but running with guys like Styles, Brown and an ECW-esque Rhino. This whole notion that there rebuilding Jarret to lose again is just blind faith, and blind faith sure as hell hasn't paid off up to this point.

 

"You`re right - we don`t know for certain what TNA`s plans are. If they don`t include some up-and-coming star winning the belt off Jarrett after a long-term storyline I`ll be the first one to blast TNA for that decision. Looking at things it looks pretty obvious to me they`re building Jarrett vs Monty. Let`s hope I`m right ;)."

 

They've done it with Styles and Raven, what happened? Monty is basically Booker T circa WM 19. There's just no reason to be hopeful.

 

"Agreed to some extent. However, a title change is a title change, even if it`s done in a repetitive way. Certainly you must agree that a World title changing hands on free tv isn`t a rare thing to see."

 

Rare doesn't equal good. It'd be rare to see someone take a shit on live TV, but I sure as hell don't wanna see it. A solid, meaningful title change that made sense, sure that'd be great. A dumb, pointless title change, no thanks.

 

"While heel heat is somewhat easy to get you cannot deny the fact that Jarrett gets MAJOR heel heat, actually I believe he`s the only one in TNA that does that (well and his associates get some too)."

 

But come on, after 3-4 years of this the guy should be getting death threats and garbage routinely thrown at him. You shouldn't be able to hear an elephant fall on a 1000 balloons when he's coming out. It's good heat, but it's not justifying his push.

 

"That certainly adds to overall feel of the show and Jarrett`s character."

 

Of course, but you can't sell heels. You can only sell heels getting beat up. That requires credible faces. And it can't be flukish, bullshit booking when it happens, it has to be undeniable.

 

"Yes, I do agree that needs to build some credible faces but that sort of thing takes time."

 

So if they spend 3 years on a heel, what is it then, 6 years on a face? It takes time, but no where near that much time.

 

"If nobody cares about your heels why would they cheer the faces who kick the heel`s ass? To me, a wrestling company should first have the villains the people hate and then the heroes appear and save the day."

 

Spiderman didn't start with the Green Goblin throwing bombs. You have to establish the hero while the villian runs a muck, and aim them towards eachother. Everyone but Jarret is bouncing back and forth with no real direction. It's just not smart.

 

"And yes, TNA is focused on "shock" but they are building up stars too. Stars take time to develop you know, it won`t happen overnight."

 

But the thing is, it actually can. If you hype what Rhino did, and make him look unstoppable for the next month, no one will question his credibility. You could dig through history, see if he did something no one else did before and hype that to no end. THEN, when someone wins it cheaply or decisively, it means more, because it'll either be seen as a huge upset or total bullshit that instantly makes whoever did it a heel. Instead they waste all that for Jarret, a guy who's been getting it for years, less than a week later. It made Rhino's win seem like an illogical fluke, and it gave Jarret something he doesn't need at all, heat.

 

"Again, all of that is just my opinion :)."

 

Ditto :)

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This little nugget comes from the Observer site...

 

 

From what I've been told, next Thursday's TNA special that was taped on Tuesday is a really strong show. The Ultimate X match with Petey Williams vs. Chris Sabin vs. Matt Bentley was said to have blown away their match on Sunday, and the Austin Aries & Sonjay Dutt & A.J. Styles vs. Samoa Joe & Christopher Daniels & Alex Shelley match was said to be even better. There are people internally predicting this show is going to be a major turning point for the company

 

 

Now with that said, I pose a question. Factoring out the IWC, will the Jarrett title win turn off marks?

 

Also, what is your prediction on the rating this special will do?

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Guest *KNK*
This little nugget comes from the Observer site...

 

 

From what I've been told, next Thursday's TNA special that was taped on Tuesday is a really strong show. The Ultimate X match with Petey Williams vs. Chris Sabin vs. Matt Bentley was said to have blown away their match on Sunday, and the Austin Aries & Sonjay Dutt & A.J. Styles vs. Samoa Joe & Christopher Daniels & Alex Shelley match was said to be even better. There are people internally predicting this show is going to be a major turning point for the company

 

 

Now with that said, I pose a question. Factoring out the IWC, will the Jarrett title win turn off marks?

 

Also, what is your prediction on the rating this special will do?

 

My prediction is, if Spike really promotes this and not just on Saturday nights but all around...1.5 at the highest.

 

I really think Jeff Jarrett's title change isnt going to piss off the new fanbase because they aren't exposed to Jarrett's antics and will see it as the ultra heel of the promotion cheating like crazy. Nothing WWE hasn't been doing for a decade.

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Guest Fishyswa

"Nothing WWE hasn't been doing for a decade."

 

How is that good for a supposed alternative to the WWE?

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Like KNK said, Jarrett hasn't been over-exposed to the non-IWC fans, so they won't be turned off by Jarrett's win. Hell, I have no problem with Jarrett winning, seeing how they appear to be working towards Brown/Jarrett.

 

Depending on the amount of advertising Spike TV does and the amount of hype TNA puts behind it, I could see anywhere from a slight increase to a 1.1 to (at the very most) a 1.6.

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