Kidman vs. tajiri

[Guest]

Wow... they're actually wrestling. Strange... I haven't seen that in a while

 

And what's this...? Psychology, in a WWE cruiser match? Holy Shit!

 

 

I know that most of this isn't exactly the style of wrestling that gets the crowd on their feet, but these guys are showing more talent and heart in this match than most of the upper card

[Guest]

WWF gave them alot of time for their match. It went 16 minutes. I'll be glad when some of the other cruiserweights come up so we can see some high flying action though. Without the high flying the cruiserweight division isn't nearly as exciting. That is what made the division.

[Guest bob_barron]

Match was awesome- I cant believe they gave it eleven minutes

[Guest]

Yeah, if those 2 had any chemistry, and we hadn't of seen them wrestle each other for the last 4 weeks, it would have been really good.

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

does 11 minutes include the commercials?

[Guest alfdogg]

It's only 9:30 here.  There's a show on for 12:00 called "the Bottom Line."  That might be the name for it here.

[Guest]

The match ended at 9:16PM. It started right when the show started and the match was going on during the commercial break, so it went 15-16 minutes.

[Guest]

Easily the best Cruiser match the WWE has put on yet... now if they would just let these guys do this on Smackdown, then maybe the division would go somewhere

[Guest Nevermortal]

That was a great match.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Best cruiserweight match since Malenko had the LHW title.

[Guest]

Hey, I never knew Tajiri was in WCW. Yeah, according to Al Snow, he and Kidman had a feud over the CW title in WCW. That's news to me. I'd like to see this.

 

On the note of misleading info, Cole also noted that no one has ever countered Tajiri's handspring elbow, and yet Kidman has done it on at least two other occasions I can think of. Do they just enjoy throwing out random facts that they think could be true?

[Guest alfdogg]

TEST has countered the handspring elbow before.

 

I can't believe they're letting him do commentary on ANOTHER show.

[Guest Human Fly]

Tajiri kicked Kidman 3 times in the shoulder at one point and every time Cole called it the "temple". Then when Kidman was down Tajiri was stomping him in the shoulder more, or as Cole called it the "solar plexus". Does Michael Cole not know he is on tv? We can see that he is not hitting him in the temple or the solar plexus. He did go for some kicks to the head but not until the end of the match. It seemed like Michael Cole was not getting the psychology of this one.

[Guest art_vandelay]

The show's taped so you don't know if it really continued throughout the entire commercial or if they just paused it.  The latter is more likely.  Match of the Week, hands down.  Actually, probably the Match of the past 2 or 3 Weeks.  The finish kinda pissed me off but it could have been a lot worse.

 

Cole really needs a few lessons on how to call a wrestling match.  I know he doesn't need to very often these days, but if Velocity continues the trend, he really should.  I was surprised Snow wasn't that much more helpful.

[Guest Cataclysm911]

I guess I'm in the minority because I thought that the match fucking sucked. Too many rest holds. The WWE style is just bad. Too many things made this match boring (I.E. Commercial break mid match, dead crowd, poor commentating.)

 

Oh well, to each his own.

 

BTW, why did Cole say that he had never seen anyone reverse the handspring back elbow like that before, when that was the identical spot that the two used two ppv's ago. Oh, nevermind. The past don't exist in the WWE.

[Guest art_vandelay]

Too many rest holds. The WWE style is just bad.

I'm sorry, but the WWE style is anything but rest holds.  I can see your point, though.  When I first got into Puro I found myself yawning through matches, but once you pay more attention to what they're doing, it makes a lot more sense, it makes the matches more believable and it makes them very good.  Of course, a good commentator can always help you with that.  You won't find it here.

[Guest]

I only noticed one rest hold... I enjoyed the old school style pacing although I have to admit, that style needs to be used in heavyweight matches. It was still refreshing to see the cruiserweights get more than 5 minutes

[Guest Cataclysm911]

There was more than one resthold that's for sure. Side head locks, armbar, etc.

 

I'm not too far off of the WWE style in my mind. Punch, Kick, spot. Punch, Kick, rest. Punch, Kick, go home.

 

That's about how long matches last too. At least this match got length.. then of course they mess up the ending..

[Guest]

The arm bar worked well with the psychology of the match because Tajiri worked on Kidmans arm the entire match, so I don't consider that a resthold.

 

The side headlock bothered me but that's it

[Guest Cataclysm911]

Yes, I realize that it was part of the psychology of the match, I'm just not a fan of arm work. Especially, when Tajiri has no way to finish his opponent off after working the arm. I mean, I guess the commentators could sell the Octapuss that way, but I don't really consider that an arm submission.

 

Now leg work on the other hand. I just have to like that. Flair taught me to.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

While I LOVE the fact that they got 2 segments there are THREE things I didn't like.  And since this IS the smarks board, I gotta smark-it-up...

 

1)The Finish.  When you give two men that long you should give them a finish.  It makes the match worth while.  The finish sort of went with the 'Kidman is the underdog' thing with the roll up, but wasn't *that* satisfying.

 

2)The Commentating.  Yeah, Tajiri wasn't in Wcw... Kelly and the new guy would have been better...They were okie dokie on Jakked.  Fans don't care about Cole, his opinion has no worth with any of us.  He doesn't bring 'star power' to the show and the Wwf should have learned with HEAT that Al Snow is not a good colour guy.

 

3)Restricted move lists.  Wcw gave the same amount of time to their cruisers and the matches were much more exciting.  Kidman and Tajiri are two very capable men... It is latenight television, it wouldn't hurt to let them 'let it all out'.  Cruiserweight wrestling is identified as being 3 things.  Fast, Flying and Innovative.  There was very little of them in this match.  It was a good match, but if they want to get the cruisers over (which they don't) faster flying matches with innovative moves is how you do it.

[Guest]

I think they are interested in getting the cruisers over because if they weren't, they would just drop the title. Plus, they're making characters out of the wrestlers so it's not like watching nameless guys wrestle each other which was a problem WCW had towards the end... great action, but no personality to make you care. In my opinion there are two reasons the WWE is holding the cruisers back from doing the innovative action

 

1) They're afraid that the action will get a little too innovative and will expose the typical "WWE" style of working a match, making the fans care less about the main event scene. I've heard this from a lot of people, and I'll be honest that I think this has something to do with it... but not very much.

 

2) The WWE has had a ton of injuries lately. They probably see the style the cruiserweights worked in WCW and think it's a little too risky to have them doing all of that for fear of injuries. I honestly think this has more to do with it than reason number one.

 

Either way, I don't see why they can't mix the two different styles... the WWE style of working the match with just a little faster paced action. They don't have to flip and fly around all the freakin' time like they did in WCW throughout the entire match... but just adding a quicker pace and allowing them to use creative moves on a limited scale, could prove to be a good formula to get the division over.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

::I think they are interested in getting the cruisers over because if they weren't, they would just drop the title. Plus, they're making characters out of the wrestlers so it's not like watching nameless guys wrestle each other which was a problem WCW had towards the end... great action, but no personality to make you care. In my opinion there are two reasons the WWE is holding the cruisers back from doing the innovative action

 

->I disagree.  The Wwf has a history of pushing the Cruiser div but then stopping for no reason whatsoever.  If they were serious they wouldn't be inconisistent.  What makes you think that the 5th time they have tried to push the division will be the 'serious' time?  I agree with the characters, but cruiserweights won't get over on character alone (hell, the only 'character' they have tried to get over is the hurricane.  Tajiri and Kidman have pretty much well gotten zip); that would make them the same as Kane or Jericho, but smaller (and therefore lesser -wwf logic).  Crusiers CAN get over by fast, action packed, highflying matches.  While character is important that doesn't help the DIVISION.  The line needs to be drawn.  Small guys aren't lesser than the big guys, they are just different and offer interesting things.

 

::1) They're afraid that the action will get a little too innovative and will expose the typical "WWE" style of working a match, making the fans care less about the main event scene. I've heard this from a lot of people, and I'll be honest that I think this has something to do with it... but not very much.

 

-> I think this has A LOT to do with it.  The Wwf are minimalists.  The least amount of work for the biggest possible pop.  When that pop gets lower, the work gets higher.  The Wwf fan is a protected one, 'they don't know what is good for them'.  All they know is what they are exposed to, and if they get exposed to something that is better, then they will demand for more of it.

 

::2) The WWE has had a ton of injuries lately. They probably see the style the cruiserweights worked in WCW and think it's a little too risky to have them doing all of that for fear of injuries. I honestly think this has more to do with it than reason number one.

 

->Success is about Risk.  Wrestling is about Risk.  This is the second time today that I have read that the Wwf dums down their product because they are afraid of injuries.  It is valid, but I personally think it is bullshit.  If they are serious about pushing cruisers, then you push them 110% because thats the way they will get over.  Not with arm drags and chokeslams, but with Moonsaults and Tope Con Hilos.  I am not saying be spot oriented like Wcw, but be more daring.  

 

::Either way, I don't see why they can't mix the two different styles... the WWE style of working the match with just a little faster paced action. They don't have to flip and fly around all the freakin' time like they did in WCW throughout the entire match... but just adding a quicker pace and allowing them to use creative moves on a limited scale, could prove to be a good formula to get the division over

 

-> Agreed, but 1)They need to step it up a notch to be truly successful and, 2) They need commentators who can put over their style...They NEED their style to be identified and their division distinguished.

[Guest]

I see your point... especially about the commentating. It's a disgrace when Tony Schiavone can call a better cruiserweight match... even when he was constantly changing the names of the moves either because A) he didn't know the real names or B) He felt that they sounded more intimidating

 

Examples of the style Cole will probably end up emulating

 

corkscrew = Spinning Twisty!

 

Shooting Star Press (for Kidman) = Kidmakaze!

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

I prefer when cruiser matches are toned down on the high flying, innovative spots. I find the matches much more effective when they use spots at key points rather than just go spot-spot-spot-spot-finish. I think the matches are better when the body of the work is strikes, submissions, power moves, and more natural transition moves. This is what seperates the great cruiserweight stuff (Benoit-Ultimo Dragon or Rey-Eddy for example) from the good but not great stuff (WCW 2000-2001 stuff for the most part fits here, just lots of spots with no real build).

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Grrrr!  I HATE Mikey Cole! HATE HATE HATE HATE!  They NEED NEED NEED NEED Mike Tenay.

 

I am all for build, I am all for meaning.  But the cruisers NEED to stand-out more, and if it is by spots then so be it.  When they get over by using spots and connect with the fans through character, THEN they can have those meaningful matches.  Cole saying 'these cruiserweights are highflying dare devils' and them doing a slingshot legdrop as the biggest spot in the match will not help at all.

[Guest alfdogg]

Wrestling is about Risk.

He'll be glad to hear that, I'm sure.

[Guest Brian]

For Green Mist, Tajiri was in both WCW and the WWF before coming to ECW.

 

As for the match which I have yet to see, I'd have to see the placement and timing in the match. The arm work sounds like Tajiri was using it because he used it in the past when he won, so that's why he'd comes back to it.

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

Brian, when was Tajiri in WWF and WCW before ECW?  Was he just in dark matches or what?

[Guest Anglesault]

I'll be glad when some of the other cruiserweights come up so we can see some high flying action though. Without the high flying the cruiserweight division isn't nearly as exciting. That is what made the division.

Random jumping around for no apparent reason? SIGN ME UP!