Thou shalt bitcheth and moaneth

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Chris Jericho - hot commodity from WCW who makes a huge splash in his debut by interrupting the Rock.  He gets a huge win for the WWF title over HHH on Raw (that's reversed later in the night) and goes on to have an amazing match with Trip at Fully Loaded.  Soon, though, Jericho gets a reputation for working "loose" and potatoeing workers and, two months later after a spectacular Last Man Standing match, Jericho's opponent is...X-Pac, a boring veteran painfully continuing a gimmick that both mark and smark had stopped caring about two years prior.

 

Rob Van Dam - hot commodity from ECW who makes a huge splash in his debut in a ladder match against Jeff Hardy.  He becomes the most popular guy in the inVasion, pins Austin on Raw and main events No Mercy with Austin and Angle.  Soon, though, RVD gets a reputation for potatoeing everything on sight (even Lilian Garcia in pre-match introductions) and, a few months later, RVD's opponent is...Goldust, a boring veteran painfully reprising a gimmick that both mark and smark had stopped caring about two years prior.

 

Coincidence...or WWF Booking insanity/genius?

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

well, if rvd ends up where jericho is now, i wont really care that he was depushed now.  hell, the ball is in the wwf's court, as rvd has shown enormous improvement in his ringwork, and seems to want it badly.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Well...Jericho at least got a better initial push (debuting in August/winning IC belt by December)

 

As far as RVD goes...(and this can be backed up) He was still feuding with Jericho for the Undisputed belt on the Smackdown before HHH's return (ME tag match against Jericho at Smackdown and the announcers were playing up their unfinished business)

 

BAM

 

January 7th- RVD curtain jerks against Test...HHH returns.

 

hmmmmm........

[Guest The Man in Blak]

January 7th- RVD curtain jerks against Test...HHH returns.

Er, well, yeah.  Triple H was one of the most amazing workers and characters throughout the last two years - I think he kind of gets a spot by default.

[Guest goodhelmet]

"Er, well, yeah.  Triple H was one of the most amazing workers and characters throughout the last two years - I think he kind of gets a spot by default."

 

But should the current program be thrown out the window just for HHH's sake? That's just bad planning and bad booking!

[Guest The Man in Blak]

I agree - they could have easily brought in HHH a little slower and given RVD a little more time up top and then slowly come down if they were going to have him "pay his dues."  My previous argument was directed more at this whole "Triple H Holds Down Everybody" conspiracy crap than the overall sanity of the decision.  

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

there is another possible scenario, though it doesnt make as much sense in hindsight.  perhaps while going with rvd-jericho they didnt want to job rvd to jericho, possibly saving it for the future.  instead, they job rock at the rumble, who wont be hurt by the loss, and will further elevate jericho.  at the time i remember we were all bitching and moaning about jericho not being a legit champ, and a win over rvd would not have legitimised him any further.

 

however this doesnt mean shit now, because they werent protecting him so he could be pushed, rather they have just attempted to bury him.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Main Eventing to wrestling Test to open Raw is quite the drop off...

 

You know what...

 

HHH fears RVD.

[Guest Tony149]

I don't think people would of had a problem if RVD didn't fall down the ladder down a bit.

[Guest goodhelmet]

Of course HHH fears RVD. RVD gets bigger pops, has more of a personality (how bad is that) and is definitely a better wrestler at this stage. Hell, I loved watching Trips wrestle pre-injury but they are building him up totally wrong and it's painful for me to watch him now. Why is RVD feuding with Goldust? wasn't he just fighting with Booker? I think the whole lockerroom was afraid that a Booker-RVD match would have stolen the show so the plan was sabotaged somewhere. RVD will be a big star but only when Taker, Austin, and HHH have career ending injuries at the same time. What would McMahon do then?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I think after they abandoned his Jericho feud...he should have contended for the IC belt immediatly.

 

They tried to stop his mometum cold...but even that didn't work.

 

If this whole NWO debacle blows up in the WWF's face...rest assured that RVD will remain over.

 

Not only did he get over against the backdrop of the ill-fated INVASION angle...but he's the only guy that came out of that angle clean.

 

I don't know if anything can kill his pops at this point (God knows they've tried).

 

Karma tells me that when the NWO fails...RVD will be at the top...because he'll come out clean again.

[Guest Tony149]

I think now is the time to push RVD. You never know when a "hot" wrestler will become cold and nobody cares.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

I think the whole lockerroom was afraid that a Booker-RVD match would have stolen the show so the plan was sabotaged somewhere.

*raises eyebrow*

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I agree with the stealing the show thing.

 

Booker's getting good heat (before Test came back) and RVD is getting good pops (before electronics came into play).

 

So the heat would be taken care of.

 

Let's look at what other match could steal the show:

 

Anything with HHH:  Nope...he's got ring rust...and is too big to move around.

Anything with Angle:  Always the possability of a ****+ match, but who would he wrestle that he hasn't already in the recent past.  (same for Austin/Jericho/Rock...)

 

The crowd might have gone nuts for a Booker/RVD match.  That would have made HHH look bad going inot MAnia...and we all know that can't be...

[Guest goodhelmet]

"Karma tells me that when the NWO fails...RVD will be at the top...because he'll come out clean again. "

 

I know you don't mean a drug test.

 

I think RVD's innovative moveset, and I certainly believe he can create new flipyy-floppy moves, will help keep him over. Eventually, Vince will have to open his eyes or SK will be writing the sequel to his current book about the fall of the WWF.

 

I'm not implying that RVD is the savior to the WWF. I just think that Vince's refusal to listen to his fans will bite him in the ass just like WCW!

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Sorry, when I thought of high-impact workers that pop the crowd, Booker T doesn't immediately come to mind.  Maybe if RVD frog-splashed him in the middle of the spinneroonie...

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Imagine what would happen if he were to unleash the Van-Terminator.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Then, to channel SK, all the WWF fans would go:

 

"Dang, Jethro - that there RVD just done him Shane MacMahon's shiny move!"

[Guest goodhelmet]

who has Booker feuded with? Rock, UT, tagging with Bossman and Test. He hasn't exactly been given a chance to shine here. Booker can bring the goods, he just hasn't been allowed to.Whateveer happened to the big payoff with him and Austin after the grocery store? Booker along withRVD have been terribly misused.

[Guest mastermind]

Well, I think you guys are right about RVD. Vince was a moron in 1995 when the whole damn crowd was cheering for HBK(when he wasn't a pussyfoot face). He pushed freaking Diesel as world champion and you saw where THAT went. The wwf starts to push HBK with the boyhood dream crap a little too late and changed him to pussyfoot HBK and he didn't draw. Coincidence???

 

Another stupid obvious mistake by Vince with a wrestler such as the current RVD. He pushed freaking Lex Luger instead of Bret Hart when it was obvious the fans wanted Bret as the champion. Sometimes, Vince is just blind as a bat or is side tracked by the political moves of certain employees. I must say if RVD got half the push HHH gets on RAW/Smackdown segments(and allowed to do his flashy work in the ring) he would be easily behind Rock and Austin with casual fans.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Booker's been criminally misused, truth be told, but of all the people to work in RVD's idiom, Booker T would only be behind Big Bossman and Regal in terms of worst possible choices.

[Guest goodhelmet]

I have to disagree with you Blak. RVD has calmed down enough to wrestle with Booker. Booker could still fly if he wanted to and I think their styles are unique enough and that both are talented enough to have some great matches. Man don't even put Booker or RVD in the same sentence as the Boss (man, is he Big). That's just bad since the latter isn't really a wrestler.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

I don't think it's an issue with RVD as it is with Booker, who may be reduced to a 2K2 equivalent of Scotty 2 Hotty if the WWF isn't careful.  Booker's an serviceable worker and RVD could provide an interesting spot or two, but saying that they would steal the show from Trip/Angle (which should be good by Angle's renewed vigor alone) or even Austin/Jericho (both of which have been on a mad crazy run of excellent matches) is a little bit of a push.

[Guest goodhelmet]

Sorry man but have you watched HHH in the ring lately? He will squash Angle and I think the match is going to disappoint. As for Austin-Jericho, the match will be good with outside interference but a Booker-RVD match with them just going at it could steal the show. RVD is over enough that if Booker were to win and capitalize on the win he would have gained much needed heat. Plus it is the one matchup that I haven't seen yet. Everything else is been there, done that

[Guest Army Eye]

If you guys really think that HHH can say the word and have a guy depushed, then that is pretty remarkable.  But regardless of whether that's even possible, you can't say that HHH is taking RVD's spot.  RVD has not been in the main event picture since No Mercy.  There is plenty of room for RVD in the IC title scene.  Why they are not putting him there, I don't know.  Putting the IC title on RVD would invigorate it in a BIG way.  Maybe they want him to win it at Wrestlemania.  If Heyman has any say in the matter, you have to admit that sounds like something he would support.  He waited and waited to put the world title on RVD until it was too late.  

 

If that is the plan (hopefully), then it would be nice if they put the IC title on somebody like Booker T before Wrestlemania though. Regal is not getting the job done; he and Edge have really killed the title.  I don't think either guy is worthy of defending it at WM.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Why, yes, I have watched Trip in the ring lately.  And you know who was in the ring with him on his first match back?  Hey - I think it was that Booker T feller.  If Booker T is as great as you say he is, he would have carried HHH to a **** match on Raw, five minute exhibition or not.  Book was misused from the very beginning of the inVasion, sho 'nuff, but I wouldn't be surprised if the WWF stuffed him in the tag division to help disguise his lack of offense at the moment, which, ironically, is almost at levels of pre-DX Triple H offensive complexity.

 

And yeah, Trip is working a more power-based (translation: slower) offense, but I think you've got the total wrong idea with the Angle match.  I can almost guaran-damn-tee you it won't be a squish match just by the sheer Stephanie factor - and I just don't see Angle and Triple H, in good conscious, churning out a DUD or even a ** match.

 

But I will give you the fact that Book/RVD is a different match that we haven't seen yet - and I definitely have to agree that it'd definitely be trading up from their current opponents...but that's not saying much.  I just don't see the huge show-stealing match that you're talking about.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Actually, now that you mention it, Army, a "mutual respect" match between Edge and RVD at WM for the IC title would fit in just great.  And, as a bonus, RVD taking the title might push Edge a little farther away from the "goofy face" territoy and give him a little bit of something to work with as far as character depth.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

If you guys really think that HHH can say the word and have a guy depushed, then that is pretty remarkable.  But regardless of whether that's even possible, you can't say that HHH is taking RVD's spot.  RVD has not been in the main event picture since No Mercy.  

 

 

Well...RVD was in a feud for the title up until 1/7.

 

He beat Jericho by DQ at Raw.

They had a "confrontation" on Smackdown.

They wrestled against each other in tag teams on Smackdown.

The announcers were playing up their feud.  

RVD went to challenge Jericho at Christmas RAW and found Storm...

 

Then HHH came back and RVD's feud was over.

 

It was obvious at the time that they were building towards Jericho/RVD at the Rumble.

 

Then HHH came back and they put on a mini tournament for the #1 contender at Rumble (even though RVD had beaten Jericho about 3 times already since Vengeance)

 

It's not that he took his place on the card...but it is amazing how RVD was dropped so fast, on that same day as the HHH return.

 

And then the whole thing about his pops being edited came up.

 

That was the Smackdown after the Rumble.  Which followed a Raw that saw RVD (in a curtain jerking 6 man tag) Blow HHH's pop away (even though HHH was confronting Jericho, And had just won the Royal Rumble)

 

HHH fears RVD because he is more over as a face than HHH could dream of being.

 

Normally that wouldn't mean anything...no one cared when people were chanting for RVD against the Rock...

 

BUT

 

HHH is supposed to be the Main Event Face at WrestleMania.

 

Having a midcarder blow you away isn't good for business.

 

Thus the editing and the depush.

 

Wether all of this is direct or inderect...HHH is the reason for all of it.

 

(Direct meaning he has the power to hold him down...indiredt meaning the WWF did it to make HHH look more over than he is)

[Guest Loss4Words]

I don't know if that had anything to do with HHH or not, but it is eery how similar the WWF career paths of Rob Van Dam and Chris Jericho are turning out to be. Jericho had his feud with Angle nixed the year before when HHH returned as well. I really don't think HHH is holding anyone down himself, I just think Vince is just as slow to figure out what the crowd really wants as he always has been.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

vince may be slow, but the conspiracy theorists gained some pretty heavy ammunition with rvd's pops allegedly being muted.