Top 100 WWF/E Matches 1986-2005

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Since we are at the half way point,how does the list look so far.What doesn't belong ?What is ranked too low ?What is ranked too high ?

[World's Worst Man 0]

69. HHH/STEVE AUSTIN VS CHRIS BENOIT/CHRIS JERICHO 5/21/01

 

This seems way too low to me. I'd probably have it in my top 20 or so. I thought it was one of the few 1999-2005 matches that was actually close to being ****.

 

GREAT SASUKE VS TAKA MICHINOKU CANADIAN STAMPEDE 97 (especially this), THE ROCK VS CHRIS JERICHO ROYAL RUMBLE 02, THE ROCK VS CHRIS JERICHO NO MERCY 01, KURT ANGLE VS EDDIE GUERRERRO WRESTLEMANIA XX, BRET HART VS SHAWN MICHAELS SURVIVOR SERIES 92, BRET HART VS RICKY STEAMBOAT 3/8/86 and BRET HART VS RIC FLAIR 10/12/92. I would expect all of these to be better, and in some cases a fair bit better, than a lot of the stuff to come. The Sasuke-TAKA and Rock-Jericho matches particularly seemed much too low. They seemed more like top 40 matches, maybe even a bit higher. Those are the only ones I would say were grievous errors.

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50. HULK HOGAN VS ULTIMATE WARRIOR WRESTLEMANIA VI

 

This is the second of three matches that go against the usual rating system.I purposely have this at #50.It's not a technical wrestling classic.It's not a crazy tlc match.So what is this doing so high on the list ?It gets the hogan/rock treatment because of how fun the match was.It also was not a bad match.Better than hogan/rock.Going into it you had no idea who was going to win.How many matches today do you see where you actually care about who is going to win ?

 

49. BRET HART VS DAVEY BOY SMITH IYH 12/17/95

 

I didn't realize how good this match was until I watched it again on the dvd.It is a completely different match from the summerslam match.The month before we got the first table spot.This match we get the return of blood to the wwf.

 

48. TEAM CANADA VS STEVE AUSTIN/LOD/GOLDUST/KEN SHAMROCK CANADIAN STAMPEDE 97

 

Not as awesome as I thought the first time I saw it.Still,this had TONS of crowd heat.It was weird to see the harts play the babyfaces and the americans play the heels after seeing the opposite on tv.All of the hart family celebrate in the ring post match is a nice touch.

 

47. BRET HART VS TED DIBIASE 3/8/89

 

I saw this on an old coliseum tape and thought it was awesome.After rewatching it on dvd,commentary aside,it's still awesome.It's in matches like this one,steamboat,savage that bret showed he can be a singles wrestler because his singles matches at the time were usually the best on the card.Dibiase was also the best heel ever imo and a great wrestler on his own.Maybe a bit too high but I love it that much.

 

46. HHH VS CHRIS JERICHO FULLY LOADED 2000

 

Maybe the only good last man standing match.Hhh let jericho be his equal in this one unlike alot of his other matches.The match was built where you couldn't tell who was going to win.After the match,you couldn't tell who had just won.Hhh just barely makes the 10 count.Awesome match that holds up just as well today as it did then.

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45. BRET HART VS RODDY PIPER WRESTLEMANIA VIII

 

I loved it then and I still love it.Pipers' best match by far.Better things were ahead for bret but this was a great match on a great ppv and it still holds up today.

 

44. BRET HART VS BOB BACKLUND SURVIVOR SERIES 94

 

After getting my best of the 80s dvds I didn't know how great backlund was in the ring.I always liked this match.Some may think it's too slow but if you like technical wrestling then you will love this one.They were also given enough time to build the kind of match they wanted.I have to include what a great acting job that owen did here too.That is a heel for you.

 

43. CHRIS BENOIT VS KURT ANGLE WRESTLEMANIA X-7

 

Nobody cares about this one now but that doesn't mean the match wasn't any good.It would have been match of the night on many other ppvs.I can watch an angle/benoit match anytimeIt is also not the last one in the series to make the list.

 

42. MANKIND VS THE UNDERTAKER KING OF THE RING 98

 

This is #3 when I said there were 3 matches that went against the regular rating system.Sometimes we spend too much time wondering if a match has good psychology or if someone is selling an injury enough.This one is never boring.Watching it at the time I wondered if foley was really hurt.After taker/hbk and this match,cage matches were popular again.It was also the debut of thumbtacks in the wwf.Let the complaining about this one begin.

 

41. STEVE AUSTIN VS DUDE LOVE OVER THE EDGE 98

 

The pre match intros are hilarious as we get the # for the briscos bodyshop.After the neck injury,Austin was only able to do matches with lots of brawling and this was his best match before his return in 2000.Vince is the ref and he curses austin out everytime he kicks out.One of the best matches of the year.

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40. BRITISH BULDOGS VS THE DREAM TEAM WRESTLEMANIA 2

 

This was a showcase for the buldogs.Dynamite was awesome in his day.Everyone knows that.Valentine was also great and is very underrated and it made for a great match.Many will say it's too high but it is one of my favorites.

 

39. KURT ANGLE VS EDGE VS CHRIS BENOIT VS EDDY GUERRERRO 12/5/02

I've already said that the smackdown six had great matches in 2002 and this was one of the best.Fatal four ways usually aren't good but benoit and eddy are eliminated within the first 10 minutes and it turns into a great singles match between angle and an injured edge.Awesome match.I didn't remember 2002 being a good year for wrestling but there were a bunch of great matches that year.

 

38. BRAINBUSTERS VS HART FOUNDATION SUMMERSLAM 89

 

I loved the brainbusters and I wished these teams had more matches against each other.Does the match hold up today ?I think so but I like 3 of the 4 guys in the match.

 

37. JUMPING BOMB ANGELS VS GLAMOUR GIRLS 11/24/87

 

This is completely out of place on a wwf card in 1987.This style of match makes everything else the wwf was doing at the time look pathetic.You didn't see powerbombs,missle dropkicks,enzuigiris,a scorpion deathlock.This was major stuff for the time.This is worth tracking down if you can get it.

 

36. HHH VS THE ROCK JUDGEMENT DAY 2000

 

Alot of people like to dismiss hhh's matches from 00-01 but he had three that really stand out imo.I already listed one.There were alot of cool spots in this to keep it interesting for 60 minutes.How often do you see someone win with a sleeper ?How about a piledriver ?Those seem like simple finishes but they just weren't used for finishes anymore.How about hhh getting himself disqualified for hitting rock with a chair only to pin him seconds later and gain more of an advantage.I thought these were really creative spots in the match.Ending aside,I love this match.

[Just John 0]

I think the HHH/Cactus NWO HIAC is kinda low, but as long as you don't have their Rumble match higher, I'll keep the complaints to a minimum.

 

Same goes to Razor/Michaels... I better not see the WM 10 match higher than the SS 95.

 

Benoit/Jericho from RR 01 better get the highest ranked ladder match.

 

Overall, good list. No major complaints so far.

[slabinskia 0]

Benoit/jericho is not the highest rated ladder match on the list.

The rumble street fight will be much higher than the hiac match because I think its a much better match.I guess I can see where you would like hiac more but I'm not one of them.

As far as the 2 hbk/razor matches go,I don't see how you can like the summerslam match more but that's just me.

[Just John 0]

Outside of the really odd, and slow finish, I thought the SS match was better. They seemed more comfortable with the ladder and used it more effectively, I thought. I remember watching both matches back to back a couple months ago, and remember being surprised at (A) How much more I liked the SS match and (B) How the WM 10 match doesn't hold up today at all.

 

I can understand why it might be ranked higher in terms of importance, though. I'm not sure of your exact criteria, but if you factor in the historical significance, then yeah, the WM 10 match should be way higher.

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35. CHRIS BENOIT VS CHRIS JERICHO JUDGEMENT DAY 2000

 

These two also had matches at backlash and summerslam that year but I liked this one much more.This is a submission match.Since its submission only,benoit attacks jerichos' arm the entire match and everything he does is a build to the crossface.That is how you build the psychology.Sounds simple,but most matches don't happen that way.

 

34. KURT ANGLE VS SHAWN MICHAELS WRESTLEMANIA 21

 

The expectations couldn't have been set any higher for a dream match like this.It is also one of the few times a match lived up to those expectations.Alot of people like to hate hbk but this match couldn't have been much better.One of my favorite wm matches.

 

33. BRET HART VS SHAWN MICHAELS WRESTLEMANIA XII

 

I've heard everything from this match sucks to it being called one of the best.It is a great match.Maybe a bit too slow but it was the first time the wwf had a televised ironman match.The only thing that hurts this is the fact that there are no decisions in the entire 60 minutes.If they had shawn win the match 2-1 I would prabably rate this much higher.

 

32. CHRIS BENOIT VS KURT ANGLE UNFORGIVEN 2002

 

This match is insanely underrated.A great example of how to win the crowd over without resorting to brawling.This match is all about chain wrestling and counter wrestling.I can watch a benoit/angle match anytime.Awesome spot in the match where benoit has angle in the crossface and angle applies the anklelock while he's still in the crossface.I can't praise this match enough.

 

31. BRET HART VS 1-2-3 KID 7/11/94

 

This reminds me of an old flair match where he would carry an average worker to a 4 star match.Bret was having a great year having great matches non stop.The kid was a pretty good worker and bret made him look awesome here.There was no way bret was losing to the kid but they made you believe that the kid could get the upset.I was disapointed not to see this on the dvd.

[snuffbox 0]

Some people actually think Bret-Shawn ironman sucked? Were these people happier the next year with the big Taker-Sid hosstacular?

[Just John 0]

The Bret/Shawn IM would've been a lot better if it was just a 35 minute match, using the last 30 minutes + OT. The first 25-30 minutes were a bunch of headlocks and armbars that went nowhere. The last half is great, the first half is pretty pointless.

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30. STEINERS VS BRET/OWEN HART 1/11/94

 

The steiners run in the wwf was a huge disapointment.I'm not sure but this may have been there last match.It was also a match that left you wanting to see a rematch.One of the best tag matches ever in the wwf.Awesome stuff here as both teams are babyfaces.The steiners looked like they did in wcw and bret and owen were perfect opponents for them.It's too good of a match to only be used for coliseum video.It could have been a big ppv match but bret and owen had more important things ahead.

 

29. EDDY GUERRERRO VS BROCK LESNAR NO WAY OUT 2004

 

This is the kind of match lesnar should have been able to have with kurt angle. A great display of mat wrestling that allowed brock to show his full wrestling ability.The psychology in this match is amazing as eddy continues to go after brocks' knee.The fact that eddy won the title here is just a bonus.This match rules regardless of who won the match.

 

28. CHRIS BENOIT VS HHH VS SHAWN MICHAELS WRESTLEMANIA XX

 

I have to admit,this is the most I had gotten into a match in a while.The best triple threat match ever.Nothing else is even close.It was also way better than anyone else would have thought.The match is all about benoit even though they tried to make it about hhh and hbk.The fact that hhh held the title off and on forever only adds to the greatness of him trying to escape the crossface and tapping out at the end.

 

27. BRET HART VS THE UNDERTAKER ONE NIGHT ONLY

 

When I saw this match I couldn't believe what I was seeing.The undertakers' best match not involving a cage.Alot of people will say this is way too high but seeing the undertaker wrestle a smart match and sell the other persons moves was a shock.If you liked his sd match with angle you will love this.The ending is the only thing that hurts it.

 

26. KURT ANGLE/CHRIS BENOIT VS EDGE/REY MYSTERIO NO MERCY 2002

I usually prefer all japan tag matches but this was nonstop action the whole match.Too many moves that could have finished the match.It had the regular tag formula,the great heat segments,and all kinds of false finishes.

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25. SHAWN MICHAELS/DEISEL VS RAZOR RAMON/1-2-3 KID AIRED 10/30/94

 

Remember during the shawn/deisel match when I said the click could have great matches with each other when they wanted to.Well they really turned it on here.This was like an old episode of wcw saturday night where you would get a 30 minute midnights/rock n roll express match.I'm serious.It is that good of a match.Deisel does his best by only being in the match when he has to and letting the other 3 work their magic.Hopefully they release this on dvd some day.

 

24. HHH VS STEVE AUSTIN NO WAY OUT 01

 

This has fallen down the charts in alot of peoples minds since it happened but to me it's just as good now as it was then.The best austin has looked since the injury.If they had kept the great wrestling going that they had in the first fall then this would be in the top 20.

 

23. BRET HART VS MR. PERFECT SUMMERSLAM 91

 

Considering what condition hennig was in it's amazing they pulled this match off.This is where bret became a major singles wrestler and it would only get better for him.Just think how good this would have been if curt wasn't hurt.

 

22. SHAWN MICHAELS VS THE UNDERTAKER BAD BLOOD 97

 

After this match,cage matches were cool again.I wasn't expecting much from this.So they are having a cage match.Big deal.Wow,was I wrong.The first hiac match and the best one.This plays to undertakers' strengths.It's not quite as good as I first remembered it but it is still an awesome match.

 

21. RANDY SAVAGE VS ULTIMATE WARRIOR WRESTLEMANIA VII

 

Yea,I like it that much.Savage always saved his best for ppv.He pulled a miracle here.They did a great job of getting over the fact that it was a career match.Since it was for their careers,it meant giving 5 elbowdrops instead of one.Since it was a career match,Warrior didn't run to the ring 100 miles per hour because he would need the energy.It also meant giving 3 shoulder tackles instead of one.This will always be one of my favorites.

 

 

There are 20 left.What is too high,too low, and what matches are you now expecting to be in the top 20 that you don't think belong there.

[humanoid92 0]

Good list thus far. There's a few things I would have done differently, but that's to be expected in a list like this. Unless I overlooked it, I don't think you've listed Savage/Flair from WM 8 yet. If that's the case, I assume it will be in the top 20, which is refreshing to see. One of my favorite matches ever, and one that doesn't get enough respect. Flair and Perfect's ridiculous cheating, Savage's awesome selling of the knee injury, Flair's bladejob, the chaos with Elizabeth and all the officials, the dome atmosphere, the out of nowhere finish, Heenan having a heart attack in the booth, the ranting Heenan and Perfect did afterwards even though Flair was somehow really calm. That match had it all. Total chaos. And then Gorilla spends the entire next match ripping on Heenan. Awesome.

 

People that shit on the Bret/Shawn Iron Man has always been one of my pet peeves. These must be the same people that love the DH. Just because Rock and HHH had a high scoring match four years later doesn't detract from this one. As soon as they announced Rock/HHH would be an Iron Man Match I remember thinking they'd do a high scoring match just to be different from WM 12. I like the Rock/HHH Iron Man a lot for the same reasons everyone else does, but I still like Bret and Shawn's more. If you go to a baseball game that goes ten innings and the score ends up being 1-0, you probably just saw a hell of a game. Who cares if there weren't a million runs scored? I'll take a 1-0 game over a 15-14 game any day. Besides, what's often overlooked is that I think the basic idea for Bret/Shawn was to do a throwback match to the era of one hour broadways (except of course with the decisive ending in overtime).

 

It was totally believable that Bret/Shawn would go an hour without scoring a fall because they'd both been in long matches before. People complain about the slow start, but it's perfect psychology within the context of the match. They know they're gonna be out there for an hour and don't want to lose the important first fall, so they don't take a lot of high risks and pace themselves. Smart wrestling. Then as it progressed and it became apparent that the first fall just might win the whole thing, they started turning it up and going all out. That match built beautifully.

 

You also have to remember that the Rock/HHH match was in a time period when fans were used to very short matches. Most TV matches from '98 and '99 were two minutes long (thank you, Russo). Even though Russo was gone by 2000 and the style of the shows was beginning to shift, the effect of this was still lingering. Look at the length of most Raw matches in 2000. Main events were usually 7 or 8 minutes and rarely did a midcard match go 5 mintues. At that point, fans would have shit on a match that went 25 or 35 minutes between falls. Plus they wanted to do something different that had never been done before. That's fine and it made for a great match but it doesn't effect the awesomeness of Bret/Shawn.

 

The era also affected the match in other ways. Decisions in Rock/HHH came off DDTs and sleepers and everyone praises that just because it's different. Now I admittedly like this psychology because it makes sense and builds up the idea that moves other than finishers can do damage, and that they're fatigued from being in there for so long that they're being beaten with moves they normally wouldn't lose to. But in the context of the WWF at that time, one could easily make the argument that this made them look very weak. When you've got guys like Val Venis and D'Lo Brown kicking out of DDTs every week on Raw and no one's been beaten with a sleeper since the 80s, it's easy to argue that this sort of thing hurt any sort of perception of "invincibility" either guy may have had going.

 

The DQ and countout decisions are another example. The bit with HHH intentionally taking a DQ by delivering a chairshot, then getting a pin to get the fall back and weaken the Rock in the process was praised as smart psychology. That's fine; it was unique and did make some sense (although why not just keep doing that repeatedly?). But how does no one have a problem with DQs playing such a big role in a Title match? I especially don't see how people tolerate the ending. I see people criticise matches and bring them down a notch "because of the finish" all the time. Well, Bret/Shawn had a clean, dramatic finish. This match had the Undertaker inexplicably running in, trying to pull off a poorly timed clusterfuck, and the match and title winning fall was decided by DQ. How is that at all a satisfying ending to the viewer? Especially after you've just invested an hour of your time watching them go at it with no prior outside interference?

 

One last thing no one mentions: Your new Champion got beat 5 times during the match. Something like this would have been unacceptable even as late as 1996. Where's the logic in that? We're gonna have our new champion job five times in the match where he wins the Title? Please. That's a total product of the Russo era. In '98, '99 and still in 2000, the Title was switching hands every six weeks and main eventers were pinned on TV all the time (usually once a week in Raw main event tag matches). So by that point it was no big deal for top guys to take falls that often. That's why their match worked. But before the Attitude era, no booker ever would have jobbed one of their top guys three or four times in one night like that, even if they were just trading falls with another main eventer. It just wouldn't have been considered smart.

 

So basically, the Rock/HHH match was a product of its time where it was acceptable to have that type of match. It suited their style, the company's style, and the way the fans had been conditioned. And in a way, because we'd already seen a match like Bret/Shawn that was 1-0, it made perfect sense for them to do this type of match. But that's no reason to shit on Bret/Shawn, because it was brilliant in its own right, and was so without relying on wacky falls, high scoring, DQs, and a run-in finish.

 

So yeah... I'd like to see the WM 12 Iron Matn get a lot more respect.

[Just John 0]

While the Bret/Shawn IM certainly isn't bad, I still prefer Rock/HHH, and will defend the match.

 

Re: Too many falls

I don't think the number of falls should hold down the view of this match, as they all make sense, except for maybe the last one, but I'll cover that later. The first two falls were a Rock Bottom and Pedigree. Two finishers, so those should draw falls. The next fall was, a nice little piece of smartness as HHH just rolled the Rock up after the Pedigree to get a quick second decision. Nicely played. The next two were score by a pile driver and a DDT. Two relatively high impact moves, that could believable knock out a weakened opponent, even in modern wrestling. It helped that the standard pile driver hadn't been seen in years, and the Rock used the DDT as one of his primary manuvers. Then we get the DQ/Pinfall chair sequence, which to be fair is pretty much ripped off from the Steamboat/Rude Beach Blast 92 30-minute IM (In that match, Rude hit a top rope knee drop and got the fall... Top rope moves were banned at the time, so same effect). Still a nice contemporary tribute and creative fall. Then we get a 5-minute sleeper hold series, which I'm not a fan of, but it's understandable in the context of the match. The Rock had been taking a massive beating, so it's believable a sleeper would get him 45 minutes in. The CO fall was another interesting one, but again makes sense. HHH tried to Rock Bottom the Rock through the announcers table, so The Rock pedigreed HHH through it instead. Having HHH get back in the ring after a big table spot would make little sense. Then The Rock hit the People's Elbow for his last fall, so no biggie. No matter what you think of the move itself, a finisher should get the fall that late no matter what.

 

Re: Undertaker return

I know traditionalist thinking says clean finishes are the best, and usually I agree. However, I can tolerate a dusty finish as long as it makes sense in the context of the feud. If I recall, UT went out on pretty bad terms storyline wise with Vince, after refusing to fight HHH in a casket match during the episode of SD where HHH went over everyone. It made sense for him to return at JUDGMENT DAY and pick up the story with Vince. His carelessness added another interesting element in getting the Rock DQ'ed. I wish they had followed up with more Rock/UT tension, but it did lead to the Rock getting the title back in that KOTR 6 man clusterfuck. I don't know if I agreed with the direction of the angle, but it made perfect sense for the finish of this match. It showed the bookers actually had a long term plan, and for the most part set up the blowoff to the Rock/HHH feud and the UT/Vince mini-feud.

 

Re: Champ getting beat too much

I think this is another instance where you have to look beyond the match and think of it in context of the feud. The Rock and HHH were trading the WWF title quite a bit and both booked on the same level. It's not surprising at all that two people so evenly matched could get that many falls on one another. If you wanna go back to baseball, a 6-5 game is pretty exciting too. It's no pitcher's duel, but it shows both teams are evenly matched, just getting it done in a different way. The Rock/HHH match was kind of the opposite of Bret/Shawn in the sense that both guys were offensive-minded the whole way, instead of conservative early. The Rock and HHH started strong and never let up, although naturally they slowed down toward the finish which makes sense. I think both IM's have a quite a bit going for them, but I prefer the style and pace of Rock/HHH to Bret/Shawn.

 

Anyway, I hope the following matches make it to the top 20:

 

Shawn/Mankind (Mind Games 96)

Shawn/UT (Bad Blood 97)

Jericho/Benoit (Royal Rumble 01)

Austin/Angle (Summer Slam 01)

Angle/Benoit (Royal Rumble 03)

 

I'm disappointed Eddie/Lesnar wasn't higher, but oh well. I can see where someone else could pick other matches ahead of it.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I have a real bad feeling the Top 20 will have a lot of overrated Austin Shit. We will see.

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20. RIC FLAIR VS BRET HART 1/9/93

 

This is an ironman match that is only available if you have the handheld.This match should have been on ppv because it is too good to just be on a house show.Flair was on his way out and he went out in style.Bret has since complained that he didn't like his matches with flair.I think that is strange because they were great and this one stands out imo as the best.

 

19. CHRIS BENOIT VS CHRIS JERICHO ROYAL RUMBLE 2001

 

We got so used to seeing insane highspots in ladder matches that they no longer had an effect on us.This match had great highspots but it also told a story.Benoit decides to go after jerichos' arm so he can't climb the ladder.Great psychology.I will add that seeing jericho put benoit in the walls of jericho on top of the ladder is one of the coolest things I've seen in a ladder match.

 

18. 1992 ROYAL RUMBLE MATCH 1/19/92

 

This is ric flair at his best.The match is all about flair.I liked how the first part of the match had him fighting guys like voneric and valentine which was a throwback to the old nwa days.Heenan is hilarious on commentary.Once piper hits the ring,that is when the top guys start entering and you had no clue who was winning.This rumble match is head and shoulders above any other rumble match that has happened.

 

17. CHRIS BENOIT VS STEVE AUSTIN 5/31/01

 

How many german suplexes would you like ?How about 10.Too bad benoit got hurt because they could have had an awesome series of matches.Ending aside,this is one of my favorites .

 

16. KURT ANGLE VS STEVE AUSTIN SUMMERSLAM 01

 

Well this was better than I was expecting.I find myself saying this alot but I would put this higher if not for the ending.I love how angle applies the anklelock outside,drags him up the steps and into the ring.

[humanoid92 0]

Those are all fair points, and I don't really disagree. Like I said, I think the Judgment Day match is a great match in its own right. I just don't like it when people automatically dismiss the WM 12 match after watching the Judgment Day one. I'd be curious to know if the same people that knock WM 12 were doing so when the PPV went off the air. I never heard such negativity about the match until way after the fact when A) people have tried to argue that they didn't want to keep putting each other over because of backstage politics and B) this 2000 match came along and did things differently. My post was really just about providing a counterpoint to all the praise the JD match gets. If you want to look at it from a certain perspective it's just as easy to criticize that match as it is to criticize the WM 12 match.

 

I totally agree with your statement that HHH/Rock were able to trade so many falls without it being that big of a deal. In my other posts, one of the points I made was that their match was perfect for the context in which it was held- the era of six week title reigns, main eventers getting pinned all the time, etc. This is fine for their match. It just bothers me when people suggest Shawn/Bret was no good because it wasn't as high scoring. If they had done something similar as Rock/HHH, it would have seemed out of place at the time. Like you said, 6-5 and 1-0 are both exciting games. They're just different types of games. I love both matches. I don't know why they both can't be remembered as classics.

 

As far as the finish goes, yes, I would have liked to have seen a clean finish, but to tell you the truth I didn't have a huge problem with the Undertaker. I just think its hypocritical when typical smark-types (not directing this at you, just the general consensus) will bash pretty much anything that doesn't have a clean finish, yet they shit on a match like WM 12 and praise this one. So that's always confused me.

 

I wouldn't argue with anyone that prefers Rock/HHH. That's fine. But to say Bret/Shawn is garbage is ridiculous (again, I'm not saying that you are the one saying this; it's just seemed to be the online consensus for a long time now).

[chaosrage 0]

Good list thus far. There's a few things I would have done differently, but that's to be expected in a list like this. Unless I overlooked it, I don't think you've listed Savage/Flair from WM 8 yet. If that's the case, I assume it will be in the top 20, which is refreshing to see. One of my favorite matches ever, and one that doesn't get enough respect. Flair and Perfect's ridiculous cheating, Savage's awesome selling of the knee injury, Flair's bladejob, the chaos with Elizabeth and all the officials, the dome atmosphere, the out of nowhere finish, Heenan having a heart attack in the booth, the ranting Heenan and Perfect did afterwards even though Flair was somehow really calm. That match had it all. Total chaos. And then Gorilla spends the entire next match ripping on Heenan. Awesome.

 

People that shit on the Bret/Shawn Iron Man has always been one of my pet peeves. These must be the same people that love the DH. Just because Rock and HHH had a high scoring match four years later doesn't detract from this one. As soon as they announced Rock/HHH would be an Iron Man Match I remember thinking they'd do a high scoring match just to be different from WM 12. I like the Rock/HHH Iron Man a lot for the same reasons everyone else does, but I still like Bret and Shawn's more. If you go to a baseball game that goes ten innings and the score ends up being 1-0, you probably just saw a hell of a game. Who cares if there weren't a million runs scored? I'll take a 1-0 game over a 15-14 game any day. Besides, what's often overlooked is that I think the basic idea for Bret/Shawn was to do a throwback match to the era of one hour broadways (except of course with the decisive ending in overtime).

 

It was totally believable that Bret/Shawn would go an hour without scoring a fall because they'd both been in long matches before. People complain about the slow start, but it's perfect psychology within the context of the match. They know they're gonna be out there for an hour and don't want to lose the important first fall, so they don't take a lot of high risks and pace themselves. Smart wrestling. Then as it progressed and it became apparent that the first fall just might win the whole thing, they started turning it up and going all out. That match built beautifully.

 

You also have to remember that the Rock/HHH match was in a time period when fans were used to very short matches. Most TV matches from '98 and '99 were two minutes long (thank you, Russo). Even though Russo was gone by 2000 and the style of the shows was beginning to shift, the effect of this was still lingering. Look at the length of most Raw matches in 2000. Main events were usually 7 or 8 minutes and rarely did a midcard match go 5 mintues. At that point, fans would have shit on a match that went 25 or 35 minutes between falls. Plus they wanted to do something different that had never been done before. That's fine and it made for a great match but it doesn't effect the awesomeness of Bret/Shawn.

 

The era also affected the match in other ways. Decisions in Rock/HHH came off DDTs and sleepers and everyone praises that just because it's different. Now I admittedly like this psychology because it makes sense and builds up the idea that moves other than finishers can do damage, and that they're fatigued from being in there for so long that they're being beaten with moves they normally wouldn't lose to. But in the context of the WWF at that time, one could easily make the argument that this made them look very weak. When you've got guys like Val Venis and D'Lo Brown kicking out of DDTs every week on Raw and no one's been beaten with a sleeper since the 80s, it's easy to argue that this sort of thing hurt any sort of perception of "invincibility" either guy may have had going.

 

The DQ and countout decisions are another example. The bit with HHH intentionally taking a DQ by delivering a chairshot, then getting a pin to get the fall back and weaken the Rock in the process was praised as smart psychology. That's fine; it was unique and did make some sense (although why not just keep doing that repeatedly?). But how does no one have a problem with DQs playing such a big role in a Title match? I especially don't see how people tolerate the ending. I see people criticise matches and bring them down a notch "because of the finish" all the time. Well, Bret/Shawn had a clean, dramatic finish. This match had the Undertaker inexplicably running in, trying to pull off a poorly timed clusterfuck, and the match and title winning fall was decided by DQ. How is that at all a satisfying ending to the viewer? Especially after you've just invested an hour of your time watching them go at it with no prior outside interference?

 

One last thing no one mentions: Your new Champion got beat 5 times during the match. Something like this would have been unacceptable even as late as 1996. Where's the logic in that? We're gonna have our new champion job five times in the match where he wins the Title? Please. That's a total product of the Russo era. In '98, '99 and still in 2000, the Title was switching hands every six weeks and main eventers were pinned on TV all the time (usually once a week in Raw main event tag matches). So by that point it was no big deal for top guys to take falls that often. That's why their match worked. But before the Attitude era, no booker ever would have jobbed one of their top guys three or four times in one night like that, even if they were just trading falls with another main eventer. It just wouldn't have been considered smart.

 

So basically, the Rock/HHH match was a product of its time where it was acceptable to have that type of match. It suited their style, the company's style, and the way the fans had been conditioned. And in a way, because we'd already seen a match like Bret/Shawn that was 1-0, it made perfect sense for them to do this type of match. But that's no reason to shit on Bret/Shawn, because it was brilliant in its own right, and was so without relying on wacky falls, high scoring, DQs, and a run-in finish.

 

So yeah... I'd like to see the WM 12 Iron Matn get a lot more respect.

 

I love you. Where have you been for all the iron man debates here? If I had to do a top 100, Bret/Shawn ironman would be #1.

[humanoid92 0]

I love you. Where have you been for all the iron man debates here? If I had to do a top 100, Bret/Shawn ironman would be #1.

 

I'm just glad I'm not alone. I'm not sure if it's my #1, but I'm sure it'd be in my top ten.

[slabinskia 0]

15. OWEN HART VS DAVEY BOY SMITH 3/1/97

 

The matches that both owen and davey are remembered for are matches against bret.They showed here that they don't need bret to put on a ****+ match.This was a mat classic.I didn't see this until years after it happened.I was in no hurry to see it because I didn't think they could put on a great match together.This immediately went to the top of the list.If you haven't seen it or haven't seen it in a long time,check it out and you won't be disapointed.

 

14. TLC SUMMERSLAM 2000

 

We go from a mat classic to one of the most impressive spot shows I can remember.I mentioned in the benoit/jericho ladder match that by that point the bar was set too high and ladder matches didn't seem as fun.The reason the bar was set too high was because these guys put it there.

 

13. DUDLEYS VS HARDY BOYS VS EDGE/CHRISTIAN WRESTLEMANIA 16

 

Many will say this is not as good because it is slower.I think it benefits from being slower.They build the match instead of throwing highspots right from the start.They raised the bar in this match.It was reraised at summerslam but I still think this was better.

 

12. HHH VS CACTUS JACK ROYAL RUMBLE 2000

 

Many will say it doesn't hold up.This was the real start to the hhh era imo.Foley is the master of the street fights and putting hhh over here was huge.I can't see this falling down the list for a long time.

 

11. BRET HART VS MR. PERFECT KING OF THE RING 93

 

This match left you wanting a rematch.Both were faces with perfect doing little heelish things during the match.This doesn't get enough love.Much better than the summerslam match that was great on its own.

 

Well,10 left.I will post them tomorrow.Thoughts ?

[snuffbox 0]

HHH-Jack at the Rumble is one of my fave matches ever. If I were to make a list it would probably be even higher than 12.

[slabinskia 0]

10. BRET HART VS DAVEY BOY SMITH SUMMERSLAM 92

 

Bret does the best carry job of his career.He showed that if you put him in the main event,you are most likely going to get the best match on the card.Davey boys' best match ever and one of the wwfs' best matches ever for that matter.

 

9. RIC FLAIR VS RANDY SAVAGE WRESTLEMANIA VIII

 

How great was this one ?The angle leading up to the match was awesome.Flair blades against company policy at the time.This is flair at his best and as I've said,savage saved his best for the ppvs.The result is a classic that is underrated by some even though everyone has this pretty high.

 

8. SHAWN MICHAELS VS MANKIND MIND GAMES 96

 

This is the match where foley shows he can wrestle as well as brawl.The greatness of the match overcomes the non finish here.The psychology here is unbelievable.

 

7. KURT ANGLE VS CHRIS BENOIT ROYAL RUMBLE 03

 

There were no plans to have benoit go over in this match.But watching it they made you believe benoit could win the match.Tough to do.There really isn't a boring part to this match.The fact that benoit got a standing ovation after the match shows how much they won the crowd over.

 

6. RANDY SAVAGE VS RICKY STEAMBOAT WRESTLEMANIA III

 

What can be said about this that hasn't been said already.20+ false finishes.Unheard of at the time.Imo,it still holds up today.Steamboat said his intentions were to steal the show.He and savage not only stole the show,they had one of the best matches in company history.

[slabinskia 0]

Before I list the top 5 let me say that it's not easy to come up with 100 matches and it's alot tougher to rank them.After you read the remaining 5,give me your overall opinions and your #1 complaint.I will be starting my nwa/wcw top 100 tomorrow.That list will be much more controversial than this one depending on what kind of wrestling you like.With that in mind,here are my top 5 wwf/e matches of the last 20 years.

 

5. BRET HART VS OWEN HART WRESTLEMANIA X

 

The only complaint I can find about this match is that it was too good for an opener.Too good for the rest of the card to follow.It was owen harts' greatest moment.He played the heel to perfection when the crowd easily could have went the other way.It was crucial for owen to go over here to give him credibility.It was also some of the best wrestling you will see in the U.S.

 

4. BRET HART VS STEVE AUSTIN SURVIVOR SERIES 96

 

Make no mistake,Bret MADE Austin and it started here.While austin had his dta persona and later was known as a brawler and one of the originators of the wwf main event style,he was also a great wrestler in 1996.This has some brawling for the new york crowd but for the most part is about psychology and counter wrestling.Austin even pulls out a texas clovurleaf here.Bret won the match but Austin was more over after the match even though he lossed.

 

3. STEVE AUSTIN VS THE ROCK WRESTLEMANIA X-7

 

The main event style at its' finest.This is filled with backstory.I was not that excited about this match going in because of their previous matches.None were any good.We get to see how desperate austin gets during the match.Resorting to the million dollar dream and repeating the ending to the match above,only for austin to kick out this time.We get both guys kicking out of the others finishers.We get both guys trying the others' finishing moves,unsuccessfully.We get the repeated spot to another austin match.In the end,austin is so desperate to win he gets help from the man he hated the most.I was left in shock at the greatness of this match.

 

2. SHAWN MICHAELS VS RAZOR RAMON WRESTLEMANIA X

 

I said that the bret/owen match was too good because nobody can follow it.Well,almost anyone.The debut of the ladder match on ppv.It was a showcase for shawn michaels.It made people believe scott hall was a great worker,which he isn't.It started one of the most popular gimmick matches of all time.And by the way,it was an awesome match.People were not used to seeing highspots like that in the wwf before this match.Does it hold up today ?I think it does.

 

1. BRET HART VS STEVE AUSTIN WRESTLEMANIA 13

 

I can talk about this one all day.One of the most historical matches ever.The best doubleturn by far.My favorite fued ever.You could sense the crowd turning on bret as the match went on.Bret was the rolemodel and austin was the heel that cheated at every turn and cost bret several matches.The crowd cheered the heel because they thought it was cool.Bret got tired of austin costing him matches and bret started complaining about it.Something the crowd would have no part of.By the time the submission match happened,bret was becoming just like the person he hates the most and wanted to make austin pay for it.We get one of the most famous shots ever as austin is gushing blood while trapped in the sharpshooter.The match is stopped,not because austin quit,but because he passed out.That is how you take someone from having a cult following to making them the #1 babyface and possibly the second most popular wrestler of all time.Best wwf match ever.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

No time to comment on the whole list, but despite what others might say, I think you damn near hit the top 10 dead on.

[slabinskia 0]

Any other opinions ?I will be starting the wcw 100 in the next few days.It will be from 1982-2001.I know wcw shut down in 3/01 but I don't remember any matches from before 82.

[JHawk 0]

Bret-Austin Survivor Series 96 > Bret-Austin WrestleMania 13.

 

The latter might be the most historic, but the former is the better wrestling match.

 

Both are definitely top 10 material though

[Guest Rrrsh]

Austin-Rock is not even Top 50

[chaosrage 0]

Austin-Rock is not even Top 50

 

Yeah, it is. It's actually number 3, look.

[slabinskia 0]

#2-#4 are interchangeable depending on what day it is since I like them so much.Other than that,my list has always been the same.

 

Rrrsh-what is it about austin/rock that you don't like ?I remember you saying you had hoped austin wouldn't dominate my top 20.Have you read any of my wcw list ?I hope you don't make the same comment about flair in regards to that list.