Don't believe the hype

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

The first two I thought of were Super Dragon and Claudio Castagnoli. My first exposure to both was the week of TPI 04 and I was underwhelmed after reading all the hype they were getting previously.

 

I do have more of both of them but I haven't gotten around to watching it yet. But I will eventually.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Ooh, another one.

 

Derek Frazier. Watchable, but I see no real standout qualities whatsoever in him.

[Youth N Asia 0]

I understand the Jack Evans hate. I know he's a spot monkey, which is what's really wrong with indy wrestling today (sure, take a dozen piledrivers, powerbombs and kick out, you're all of 90 lbs). But he at least can do things no one else can, and is entertaining...where as the SAT NEVER entertained me

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

Liar. You LOVED Red.

 

As for Evans, the match I saw with him and Shelley.....his punches looked so weak , it was laughable. But I like his style.

[Youth N Asia 0]

F*CK RED! And more importantly F*CK your hockey cards.

 

Yeah, Jack has the weak punches/ugly forarm shots. And his kicks suck too actually

[World's Worst Man 0]

I'll dive in shark infested waters... Samoa Joe.

 

Sure, he's big and stiff. Other than that, not a damn thing about him hooks me at all.

 

*awaits stoning

 

 

I'd like to see how he does against guys his size...

 

Yea that Kobashi is such a small guy. Terrible match too.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I'm really down on AJ Styles. The guy is a great talent, but he does nothing for me. To me he is an indy Billy Gunn: He can bump like a motherfucker, but his offence puts me to sleep.

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

AJ Styles is whats wrong with Indy wrestling today. He is the equivalent to HHH (for obvious different reasons)

Could you please clarify that a tad?

[Just John 0]

I'm really down on AJ Styles. The guy is a great talent, but he does nothing for me. To me he is an indy Billy Gunn: He can bump like a motherfucker, but his offence puts me to sleep.

 

Man, what kind of offense do you expect from wrestlers? I can understand why others would bash his psychology and selling, but his offense? The guy has lots of nice kicks, high-impact moves, and flying moves. I could see someone calling him an indy RVD, but not a Billy Gunn. That's just too much for me.

[Guest Rrrsh]

AJ Styles is whats wrong with Indy wrestling today. He is the equivalent to HHH (for obvious different reasons)

Could you please clarify that a tad?

 

He is a fucking Gymnist with no sense of storytelling, phycology or long term selling. His matches look like choreographed dance, not wrestling. And since he is a major player in the Indys, he heavy influences peopel who follow him. The biggest problem with the Indyz are lack of storytelling and too much no-selling. And that because of AJ Styles influence

 

Whats wrong with the WWE is that the Mian Event is stale and boring. And that cuz of HHH's ego.

[Bruce Blank 0]

I'll dive in shark infested waters... Samoa Joe.

 

Sure, he's big and stiff. Other than that, not a damn thing about him hooks me at all.

 

*awaits stoning

 

 

I'd like to see how he does against guys his size...

 

Yea that Kobashi is such a small guy. Terrible match too.

One match, one opponent doesn't really show how Samoa Joe would do in general if he's out of the X Division and have to work with guys he can't just throw around or who can't be bump machines to his offence.

 

I've got that match downloaded off YouTube - everyone seems to love the crap out of the Joe / Kobashi match I guess I'll have to see what the hype is all about.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Clearly, one excellent match against an opponent his own size is completely meaningless. Of course. Ok, then how about the 3 matches against the taller CM Punk?

[Bruce Blank 0]

Oh yes cause that's TOTALLY what I said wasn't it? I used the words "meaningless" in my post, sjesh.

 

Now if you'll care to re-read and maybe actually take in what I WROTE instead of what you interpreteded my comments as you'll see that I wrote "One match, one opponent doesn't really show how Samoa Joe would do in general if he's out of the X Division and have to work with guys he can't just throw around or who can't be bump machines to his offence"

 

Yes I'm sure the match with Kobashi was great (I'll have to check it out myself) but it is ONE match against a stellar opponent, not proof that he can work good matches with a variety of bigger opponents, it just proves that he can have a good match with Kobashi.

 

Him and how many others can have a good match with Kobashi? that's partly my point. I'm not putting down the match, I'm not saying it doesn't matter either - but it's also not indicative of how Samoa Joe does against a variety of bigger opponents in general.

 

It's like having a match against Bret Hart, it's very hard to have a bad match against Bret Hart even if it's the biggest piece of no talent in the world (which Joe isn't I'm not trying to imply that)

 

and while CM Punk is taller he's not exactly cut from a different mold than the X division guys now is he? He falls in the category of small guys (skinny & light) that he can throw around and that bumps a lot for Joe.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Punk and Danielson both wrestle a fair bit differently than most X-Division guys. Joe had great matches with both. He's had great matches where he dominated, great matches where he had to sell and eventually lose, great matches where he got dominated. Regardless, the implication that Joe needs a good bumper and smaller opponent to have a good match just completely misses the point of why he's good. Spots don't make a wrestler good, neither does stiffness. Anyone can throw out spots, anyone can work stiff. Not everyone can lay a match out, not everyone knows when and how to sell. So yea, I don't see any reason for the argument about whether Joe can work bigger opponents (who won't pinball or take stiff strikes), unless one thinks spots and stiffness is the only thing that matters.

[Bruce Blank 0]

"one thinks" nothing of the sort but thank you for the condecending tone at least you're consistent.

 

You keep mentioning guys that aren't that big and that are good bumpers as examples of how he doesn't need smaller guys that are good bumpers to have a good match.

 

it'd be like me saying (pure example) "Misawa doesn't need to face Kobashi to have a good match - just look at Misawa Vs Kobashi from "so-and-so" " that argument itself shows that you have no grasp of what I am saying.

 

It's not helping really going anywhere to illuminate how Samoa Joe has had great matches against bigger, heavyweight wrestlers when your examples don't actually fullfil the requirement.

 

I didn't say he couldn't have a good match against the opponents he usually works with(Smaller, easier to throw around opponents who sell for him like he's a powerhouse usually)

 

but you didn't get that did you?

 

No in my comment of how I'm not convinced that he could have good matches against bigger guys you read that I said "Samoa Joe sucks"

 

I say blue, you read "red" - it's getting rather tedious

[World's Worst Man 0]

Well whatever. Punk and Danielson not withstanding (which are good examples of matches where bumping wasn't a big deal, the size of the opponents being completely irrelevant), the Kobashi match clearly shows he's able to work with a bigger~! opponent. Not everyone has an excellent match with Kobashi. It was clearly not a carry job, and Joe is likely a better worker than him in general. That makes the "it's only one match against a great opponent" argument completely moot. But more importantly, intelligent match lay out (building logically, having a story) and selling (putting over the damage the opponent is dishing out) are not qualities that require an opponent to bump around. Joe has those qualities, as demonstrated in the Kobashi match and demonstrated in pretty much everyone other good match he's ever had. So based on the Kobashi match, based on Joe's main strengths not being depedant on the wrestler he's working against, I come to the conlusion that the size of the opponent is irrelevant.

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

AJ Styles is whats wrong with Indy wrestling today. He is the equivalent to HHH (for obvious different reasons)

Could you please clarify that a tad?

 

He is a fucking Gymnist with no sense of storytelling, phycology or long term selling. His matches look like choreographed dance, not wrestling. And since he is a major player in the Indys, he heavy influences peopel who follow him. The biggest problem with the Indyz are lack of storytelling and too much no-selling. And that because of AJ Styles influence

 

Whats wrong with the WWE is that the Mian Event is stale and boring. And that cuz of HHH's ego.

Maybe I'm just an ignorant fool, but unless you mean by storytelling something like "overcoming the odds" I have trouble seeing a story in a match. Most of his moves, though, do work on the head, which is part of what he wants to set up the Styles Clash. He isn't a technician, so he keeps a fast pace most of the time time on offense, which is good as far as I'm concerned. He wrestles a cruiserweight style, for God's sake. I've never noticed his spots looking contrived. He just has trademark moves like everyone, the Pele and the like. He strikes me as just as fluid and spontaneous as a Bret Hart or a Ric Flair in the ring. But maybe it's just me. If I could ask a question, do you like the high flying style at all, and if you do, give me an example or two of who you like. Maybe I can see your point then.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Azrael has never done anything for me, I'm glad he's been phased out of ROH. Lack of muscle on Indie guys never normally bothers me, but his look is terrible, IMO.

[Jacques 0]

Raven and Bret Hart are big AJ Styles' fans.

[pochorenella 0]

I've never gotten the appeal for Colt Cabana.

[Hawk 34 0]

I've never gotten the appeal for Colt Cabana.

 

Not to "defend" another ROH name, but not getting Colt Cabana's appeal is pretty strange. If anything, his appeal in the independents is probably the most straight-foward.

 

At worse, he is a glorified but brilliant comedy worker who is excellent with skits and promos. That is not arguable and it's basically the thing that got him the attention at first. In 2005, he stepped up from being a reliable comedy act/tag team specialist who was an excellent brawler, into a pure and scientific performer. Incorporating an european style into his design, made him a more complete and effective worker.

 

The last few months, in ROH he has completely stripped himself of his usual zany antics and personality and has become a very effective serious face. Alot of people, wanted to claim that Cabana was strictly a comedy act but he has proven that he can work inside the work and shed that comedic persona.

[benoit4hor 0]

Chris Sabin, I'm not feeling it at all.

[Si82 0]

I've never gotten the appeal for Colt Cabana.

I really like Colt Cabana. He's had some good matches with Nigel McGuiness, another guy I really rate, and he's a hell of comedic performer. His "Good Times, Great Memories" segments are great.

 

However, I haven't seen his recent "serious" face persona that Hawk describes because ROH on the wrestling channel is about six months behind.

[haws bah gawd 0]

I'll dive in shark infested waters... Samoa Joe.

 

Sure, he's big and stiff. Other than that, not a damn thing about him hooks me at all.

 

*awaits stoning

I'd like to see how he does against guys his size...

Yea that Kobashi is such a small guy. Terrible match too.

One match, one opponent doesn't really show how Samoa Joe would do in general if he's out of the X Division and have to work with guys he can't just throw around or who can't be bump machines to his offence.

 

I've got that match downloaded off YouTube - everyone seems to love the crap out of the Joe / Kobashi match I guess I'll have to see what the hype is all about.

 

Count me in on not feeling the love for Samoa Joe. All I ever see the guy do is stiff chop - stiff kick - stiff suplex - Muscle Buster - Chokeout. Where is the appeal in the guy? Sure he can move for a big guy, but his offense is nothing to scream about IMO. I never understood the praise behind his match with Kobashi. All they did was trade chops for a half hour and give eachother a couple head-drops. It was HARDLY the ***** classic that all the ROH fan boys build it up to be. I know that's going to piss off a lot of the people on this board because I know a lot of you see Joe as this wrestling god, but I am not impressed. Could someone explain to me why the Muscle Buster is thought of as death? When he does the move all I see is a glorified vertical suplex with a spin. Until I see him have a decent match with a guy that weighs more than 225, all I will see is a fat guy that hits really hard.

 

*Prepares to be drawn and quartered by all the Joe fans*

[Guest wildpegasus]

With apologies to Samoa Joe if he ever reads this:

 

I don't understand the super hype for Samoa Joe or some of the other indy stars. It's not like I don't like him or anything but I just can't find any matches of his where I'm loving his work like I do with Rey Mysterio, KENTA, the Undertaker or Chris Benoit.

 

 

For indy guys (if you can call them indy guys anymore) I prefer Low Ki, Spanky and Jamie Knoble.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Count me in on not feeling the love for Samoa Joe. All I ever see the guy do is stiff chop - stiff kick - stiff suplex - Muscle Buster - Chokeout. Where is the appeal in the guy? Sure he can move for a big guy, but his offense is nothing to scream about IMO. I never understood the praise behind his match with Kobashi. All they did was trade chops for a half hour and give eachother a couple head-drops. It was HARDLY the ***** classic that all the ROH fan boys build it up to be. I know that's going to piss off a lot of the people on this board because I know a lot of you see Joe as this wrestling god, but I am not impressed. Could someone explain to me why the Muscle Buster is thought of as death? When he does the move all I see is a glorified vertical suplex with a spin. Until I see him have a decent match with a guy that weighs more than 225, all I will see is a fat guy that hits really hard.

 

*Prepares to be drawn and quartered by all the Joe fans*

 

How much Joe have you seen? Just curious, because anyone's who seen a lot of his non-TNA work would never, ever claim his offense is that limited. Not for any reason other than it's factually incorrect.

[haws bah gawd 0]

Count me in on not feeling the love for Samoa Joe. All I ever see the guy do is stiff chop - stiff kick - stiff suplex - Muscle Buster - Chokeout. Where is the appeal in the guy? Sure he can move for a big guy, but his offense is nothing to scream about IMO. I never understood the praise behind his match with Kobashi. All they did was trade chops for a half hour and give eachother a couple head-drops. It was HARDLY the ***** classic that all the ROH fan boys build it up to be. I know that's going to piss off a lot of the people on this board because I know a lot of you see Joe as this wrestling god, but I am not impressed. Could someone explain to me why the Muscle Buster is thought of as death? When he does the move all I see is a glorified vertical suplex with a spin. Until I see him have a decent match with a guy that weighs more than 225, all I will see is a fat guy that hits really hard.

 

*Prepares to be drawn and quartered by all the Joe fans*

 

How much Joe have you seen? Just curious, because anyone's who seen a lot of his non-TNA work would never, ever claim his offense is that limited. Not for any reason other than it's factually incorrect.

 

I'll admit I haven't seen much non-TNA Joe. I've seen the tremendously overrated Kobashi match, a match with Low Ki where it seemed they were just trying to see who could kick harder, his first match with Necro Butcher, and a handful of others. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy a lot of indy worker's matches. Guy like Christopher Daniels, American Dragon, Jack Evans, AJ Styles, and the Briscoes always entertain me, but I just can't see what it is that makes people so crazy about Joe based on what I've seen.

[World's Worst Man 0]

I would suggest seeing his best work before you get frustrated with Joe being highly rated. The Kobashi match was excellent, but I wouldn't call it one of his 3 best matches. But Joe's ability is there. He knows how to get a story across, he knows when to sell, he knows how to layout a match. I guess it's just a matter of whether one cares about any of that. Joe's offensive variety is certainly there, which is something a lot of people seem to care about. Comparing his offense to someone like Angle (who many people think highly of) is a complete mismatch, considering execution and variety. Actually Joe outclasses him in every possible area I can think of, as it pertains to in-ring work.

 

I can definitely see why some people might think that Joe's matches are fairly similar, based on his TNA work. I've been wondering through his whole run why he wasn't using even close to his full moveset. But his TNA work is like 10% of his overall career, and is hardly a relevant sample to judge him by. It'd be like judging Benoit based only on his WWE work.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I would suggest seeing his best work before you get frustrated with Joe being highly rated. The Kobashi match was excellent, but I wouldn't call it one of his 3 best matches. But Joe's ability is there. He knows how to get a story across, he knows when to sell, he knows how to layout a match. I guess it's just a matter of whether one cares about any of that. Joe's offensive variety is certainly there, which is something a lot of people seem to care about. Comparing his offense to someone like Angle (who many people think highly of) is a complete mismatch, considering execution and variety. Actually Joe outclasses him in every possible area I can think of, as it pertains to in-ring work.

 

I can definitely see why some people might think that Joe's matches are fairly similar, based on his TNA work. I've been wondering through his whole run why he wasn't using even close to his full moveset. But his TNA work is like 10% of his overall career, and is hardly a relevant sample to judge him by. It'd be like judging Benoit based only on his WWE work.

 

If Angle's not as good as Samoa Joe than why does Angle have better matches than Joe?

[World's Worst Man 0]

Because he doesn't and you'd be hard-pressed to present a feasible argument that would suggest otherwise?